Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

Ok, I've beaten FFT morew times then i can say but i never understood the ending.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

at first i think ramza is dead but then i hear that he is actually alive or that him and alma are ghosts riding on the chocobo... ???

Moderator Edit

Changed title to avoid potential spoilers. Also changed this post. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 21st February 2005 19:16

--------------------

Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Ramza and Alma live. The bigger controversy, on most forums, is whether Cid and the rest of the gang that went to Murond survived.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 21st February 2005 20:24

--------------------

Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Well, it's hard to say.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The situation in Murond seems beyond hopeless, but still we see Ramza and Alma riding away on majestic chocobo-back. A really old thread from the gamefaqs website (way back before it became to trolled-out for my tastes) dealt with this in detail, and the most popular opinion seems to be that everyone died. Otherwise, why is history the way it is? The story of Ramza would have been popular legend if both Olan and Ramza survived to challenge Delita, but Ramza's death would both explain his legend only surviving through Olan. As for the enigmatic ending scene, there is no good explanation for that. Probably a Return of the Jedi-esque spirits of the dead watching over the next generation deal.

So that's what I think.

--------------------

this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

If everyone died as it is suspected, I would think that Delita would have had something to say about it. Although, prehaps that would explain why he gets stabbed in the end by Ovelia. Because of Delita's actions, Ramza was killed, forcing her into a blind rage. I haven't watched the ending scenes for a while so I can't recall exactly what everyone says so I could just be rambling.

If they were truly spirits watching over the next generation thing, I think it would've been better if Dycedarg and Zalbag also rode by. Even though the two of them died for sure, and Dycedarg turned into Lucavi. So maybe in which case Ramza and Alam did survive. Who knows for sure though.

--------------------

This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I don't think there's any definitive way of knowing whether or not Ramza and Alma actually survived the falling ship. Why they should live and the rest of the group perishes makes no sense to me, as they don't exhibit any qualities that would get them out of that situation. Alma's encounter with the Virgo Stone could have had some effect, but that's as far as I can guess without throwing hypotheses from left field.

The main evidence to backup their living is the ending video sequence which just begs the question, "Why make an FMV for something that isn't really occuring?", but I still think Olan was just wanting to see some sign that his friends' were alive (and I refer to them as friends because they helped break Orlandu out of Bethla). From the gamer's point of view, Olan clearly sees something but I don't think it would be the two young Beoulves.

The memorial service must have taken a short while after the final battle, and that gives no time for anyone who might've survived to convalesce anywhere. Also, why would they visit their own memorial service and not show themselves to their mourners? To me, it's stupid to answer questions with questions, but I can't see any reasonable explanation for it.

I'll stick with Olan and his wanting for something symbolic to their lives. For all I know, his "viewing" Ramza and Alma riding away on chocoboback could signify their part in the history of Ivalice fading away.

*ramble*

--------------------

It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Here's the Freebird's rambling. Here's what I think happned...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

After vanquishing Hashmalum, Ramza picks up his stone (Leo?). After Ramza, Alma, and party* kill Altima, I think the combined powers of all the acquired Zodiac stones would somehow remove them from the Graveyard of Airships back to Orbonne Monastery since the stones are said to "work miracles", that would make logical sense to me. For Delita to be the king and to be considered the hero of the Lion War, he and the church would have to almost immediately declare Ramza's death so the people of Ivalice would consider him legally "dead". From the ending scene, I don't think Ramza and Alma died and Alma's funeral was the way for the King and Queen to publicize the deaths of the two youngest Beoulves, and they did this before anybody could have a chance to do anything about it.
To summarize, Ramza and Alma are alive, but remain in isolation from the rest of the world because in the peoples' minds and in any legallities, they are "dead".
*And as far as Orlandu or anybody else in the party is concerened, they're existences at the time of the final battle is all up to the player. If you're going to show some scene with Orlandu, why not for any generic characters or anybody else? Why make unecessary scenes when you don't have to. I just surmised that his party was also presumed "dead" and merely remained in the shadows.
Sorry for the length...

This post has been edited by FabulousFreebird on 22nd February 2005 19:33

--------------------

"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

One thing to add, how would anyone have known that Ramza and Alma were killed? Basically everyone they came in contact with were now dead. The entire Beoulve family, perished. There were a few, Olan, Balmafula, and possibly Delita on the other side of Ivalice may have known about Ramza's actions. The events that occurred at Murond Holy Temple lead to them going back to Orbonne Monastary. So who would've known that Ramza's squad was heading out to the Monastary?

--------------------

This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

I like Freebirds theory yet why would Ramza subject himself to a life in teh shadows? much less the generics who in my opinion listen to Rock drink and party all night, plus if i was a knight and i defeated demons and gods and whatnot i would indulge in my bragging rights "Hey girls... I killed a god last night, wink wink" lmao!

Quote

who would've known that Ramza's squad was heading out to the Monastary?

Olan knew they were going to defeat ajora, if they hadnt spoken with olan then he would be the one to know they had died, i think...

--------------------

Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

Umm...ya got some spoilerz there DivineKnight...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I personally just think that Ramza and Alma are alive, and that the other charcters aren't shown because the game didn't acknowledge who was in your party. I mean, perhaps Ramza realized that no matter how hard he tried, he couldn't escape war. He had seen his fair share of tragedy, and I'm sure he didn't want to get Alma involved with Delita after all this. Feigning his death wasn't actually a bad idea. 'Sides, Olan DID see him, whether or not it was simply a vision or not. Regardless, we'll never know.

This post has been edited by Shinjutsei on 24th February 2005 04:30

--------------------

"Dance, water, dance!"
-Demyx, Kingdom Hearts II

"I met my love before I was born..."
-AFI, 'Love Like Winter' from 'Decemberunderground'

Currently Playing: Guitar Hero, Shadow of the Colossus

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The only reason why I feel that they "lurked about in the shadows" is because since they are presumed dead, they would disappoint mourners and close friends to actually realize that they are alive and that the funeral, roses, crying, and weeping was for nought. I think that Ramza and Alma felt (and knew) that they could do more in "death" than if they revealed that they were alive. If you were presumed dead and your funeral had just taken place, wouldn't you deliver the ultimate dissapointment in revealing that you have been alive, and their tears, flowers/roses, sorrow, and mourning were all for nothing? This theory comes about in another famous source, though the name escapes me...

This post has been edited by FabulousFreebird on 24th February 2005 21:39

--------------------

"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

lmao! Just because they didnt know i was alive doesnt mean i would just go out of my way and find a new life so as not to "dissapoint" them that i am still alive.
Thats crazy!

--------------------

Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

Quote (FabulousFreebird @ 24th February 2005 08:15)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The only reason why I feel that they "lukred about in the shadows" is because since they are presumed dead, they would disappoint mourners and close friends to actually realize that they are alive and that the funeral, roses, crying, and weeping was for nought. I think that Ramza and Alma felt (and knew) that they could do more in "death" than if they revealed that they were alive. If you were presumed dead and your funeral had just taken place, wouldn't you deliver the ultimate dissapointment in revealing that you have been alive, and their tears, flowers/roses, sorrow, and mourning were all for nothing? This theory comes about in another famous source, though the name escapes me...

Uh, if you were presumed dead, and everyone was upset about this, finding out you were alive would probably be a good thing. I guess that's just my opinion.

--------------------

"Dance, water, dance!"
-Demyx, Kingdom Hearts II

"I met my love before I was born..."
-AFI, 'Love Like Winter' from 'Decemberunderground'

Currently Playing: Guitar Hero, Shadow of the Colossus

Yes thats my point exactly. I dont think my mom or girlfriend would like it at all if i were dead and i think coming back into there life would be a good tihng for them.... unless it was like what happend on castaway and she ended up with some other guy lol that would totally suck

Moderator Edit

OK, one more chance. Post on topic or get warned. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 24th February 2005 19:26

--------------------

Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The memorial service must have taken a short while after the final battle, and that gives no time for anyone who might've survived to convalesce anywhere. Also, why would they visit their own memorial service and not show themselves to their mourners? To me, it's stupid to answer questions with questions, but I can't see any reasonable explanation for it.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

They would more than likely not want the public at large to know they were alive. If you'll recall, Ramza was still regarded as a heretic and would have been executed on sight.

As for him not doing anything about Delita, why would he? Ivaliace was at peace. The turmoil within had been laid to rest. The country had been ravaged by a fifty year war followed by a civil war that lasted at least more than another year. Ramza would not have done anything about Delita for the simple fact that order had been restored to the land and People had something to believe in and hope for the future again. Removing Delita from power (assuming he would have even been able to assassinate him or that he would have wanted to, as he may not have even been aware of all that Delita had been manipulating) would just leave everyone in the same situation they had been at the start of the Lion War: With no king and a lot of schmucks wanting to be important, while peasants suffered more than anyone else.

Ramza going off to live in the shadows would have been the best thing for everyone in the country.


As for whether or not Olan imagined it and nothing more, while possible, the ending FMV didn't have Olan present, yet we still see Alma and Ramza riding off into the wilderness. This isn't a "Why bother to make the FMV if it wasn't actually happening?" point, but a "They made the FMV, Olan wasn't there, and nothing suggests that it wasn't real" point, in which case the only conclusion offered by the game is that the two survived.

As for the rest of the party, it's kind of left up in the air. Olan will say "Did my father die fighting heroically?" at Alma's "grave," but whether that means Orlandu's body came back with the others, or if it never did and Olan just assumed his father to be dead is unknown.

Either possibility leaves us with the question of "How did they make it back?" whether it was just their dead bodies, or actually them. There's, of course, the possibility that no bodies went back and Delita just arranged for the "funeral" of Alma to make it appear that all the Beoulves were dead and put things to rest in the public eye (which is possible, sure), but going back to the fact that nothing suggests that Ramza and Alma weren't alive, we can only conclude that somehow they did make it back.

Personally, I agree with FabulousFreebird concerning the matter of the Zodiac Stones sending them back. The Stones can be used for either good or ill depending on the hearts of those in possession. The implication throughout the game seems to be that the Stones are channels to the spiritual realms, and that if the heart of one nearby is pure, it connects them to God, whereas it will connect them to Lucavi/The Devil if their heart is impure.

Greedy People like Cardinal Draclau, Dycedarg, and Vormav would have been contacted by Lucavi, as would Wiegraf whose heart was full of hate and a desire for vengeance as well as a desire to live on, and with the desire to live also likely being what drew Marquis Elmdor in by Lucavi.

In the case of the dominantly good-natured Rafa, when she grieved for her brother, the Scorpio Stone (the same one that had turned Cardinal Draclau into Queklain) felt what was in her heart and reacted by bringing Malak back to life. This shows us that the same Stones can be put to good or evil purposes depending on the hearts of those who use them.

In the case of those in the Graveyard of Airships, perhaps a mutual desire to see their fellows survive caused the Stones to react and send them all away, though that leaves us with the question of how Orlandu died (if he did).


Based on my personal observations and analysis, I would say it's definite that Alma and Ramza survived, though as to the exact "how"s behind that and whether or not anyone else did, I can make no more concrete a determination than anyone else, though I do think that assuming the Zodiac Stones sent them away is plausible enough based on their past behavior.

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

riiiiiiight... i dont see how talking about the reason why ramza didnt show his face is off topic. whats the problem here like seriously, i come here to talk about ff i dont come here to have to watch everything i say as if im at daycare or something

wow i bet im gonna get kicked off for this or something EXCELLENT

--------------------

Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

umm i jsut read everythig and its all on topic ???????? wats the deal

ya my chars are omega chars lol jk i love my chars i own hahahahah

Thankyou summiner, by the way try not to post twice in a row just edit it instead, i was warned about that...
ANYWAS, Fact of everything is I doub ramza hideing out somewhere had little to do with him not wanting to "dissapoint" everyone. He probubly died...

--------------------

Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

Most likely dude i guess he died cuz of wat happened so ya but really the game ends and until they make i for ps2 or something that tells about after the story of fft. anyone beleive wat i think or wat ??????? i want a fft for ps2 that would be sexy.


[SPOILER]i bet there is going to be one soon in the next year using the same technology as ffx-2 and fft but who knows[SPOILER]

This post has been edited by Black_Summiner on 25th February 2005 00:33

Don't forget to read the rules, Summiner (I assume you realize you spelled that wrong?), becuz they say to make your post legible. Also, you kinda...didn't use the spoiler filter correctly. Luckily those really weren't spoilers...at all...
And I doubt we'll see another console FFT anytime soon. But that's off topic, kiddies.

--------------------

"Dance, water, dance!"
-Demyx, Kingdom Hearts II

"I met my love before I was born..."
-AFI, 'Love Like Winter' from 'Decemberunderground'

Currently Playing: Guitar Hero, Shadow of the Colossus

SPOILERS BELOW -[Can't make all quoted lines spoiler'd]
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Quote ( Squall of SeeD)

They would more than likely not want the public at large to know they were alive. If you'll recall, Ramza was still regarded as a heretic and would have been executed on sight.

Then there would have been no reason for them to even attend the funeral, or give anyone the slightest doubt in their mind that they were alive so they the chase could begin again.

Quote

As for him not doing anything about Delita, why would he? Ivaliace was at peace. The turmoil within had been laid to rest. The country had been ravaged by a fifty year war followed by a civil war that lasted at least more than another year. Ramza would not have done anything about Delita for the simple fact that order had been restored to the land and People had something to believe in and hope for the future again. Removing Delita from power (assuming he would have even been able to assassinate him or that he would have wanted to, as he may not have even been aware of all that Delita had been manipulating) would just leave everyone in the same situation they had been at the start of the Lion War: With no king and a lot of schmucks wanting to be important, while peasants suffered more than anyone else.

A brotherly bond was shared by Delita and Ramza throughout the game's entire duration. Each could have caused trouble for the other, if they had wished, and even with personal dispositions included, they were both (becoming) conscientious of what the other was doing. During the last cutscene, after Ovelia is killed, Hyral's thoughts turn directly to Ramza and what he got out of the whole ordeal. His relationship with Ramza had obviously stagnated somewhat from when they were kids, but there's still remnants of their past friendship even in the dying scenes.

Speculation about a Lion War repeat is highly unlikely. With Ovelia dead, there would be no proper heir to the throne, and Orinas would be reigned in with the help of a regent. Bloody conflicts and chaos would be on the low end of the probability scale.

Quote

Ramza going off to live in the shadows would have been the best thing for everyone in the country.

Perhaps. The Beoulve family's reputation and bloodline would have been nonexistant by that time and living in obscurity could have been the choice he made if he did indeed live through it all. If he choose a life of hiding, there would have been no reason for him to appear at the memorial service--severing all ties would make sure the "dead" heretic stayed dead. Risking his new future for one last glimpse? Not likely.

Quote

As for whether or not Olan imagined it and nothing more, while possible, the ending FMV didn't have Olan present, yet we still see Alma and Ramza riding off into the wilderness. This isn't a "Why bother to make the FMV if it wasn't actually happening?" point, but a "They made the FMV, Olan wasn't there, and nothing suggests that it wasn't real" point, in which case the only conclusion offered by the game is that the two survived.

The way Olan is conforted by the memory of the two surviving (?) Beoulves only leads me to believe he did not see them in actuality. Anyone who had mourned and wondered of Ramza and Alma's fate would have been astonished or, at least, glad to know they were safe and sound--Olan said a simple "thank you" as they "left". The scene before the FMV makes me unable to take it at face value.

Quote

Personally, I agree with FabulousFreebird concerning the matter of the Zodiac Stones sending them back. The Stones can be used for either good or ill depending on the hearts of those in possession. The implication throughout the game seems to be that the Stones are channels to the spiritual realms, and that if the heart of one nearby is pure, it connects them to God, whereas it will connect them to Lucavi/The Devil if their heart is impure.

Greedy People like Cardinal Draclau, Dycedarg, and Vormav would have been contacted by Lucavi, as would Wiegraf whose heart was full of hate and a desire for vengeance as well as a desire to live on, and with the desire to live also likely being what drew Marquis Elmdor in by Lucavi.

In the case of the dominantly good-natured Rafa, when she grieved for her brother, the Scorpio Stone (the same one that had turned Cardinal Draclau into Queklain) felt what was in her heart and reacted by bringing Malak back to life. This shows us that the same Stones can be put to good or evil purposes depending on the hearts of those who use them.

In the case of those in the Graveyard of Airships, perhaps a mutual desire to see their fellows survive caused the Stones to react and send them all away, though that leaves us with the question of how Orlandu died (if he did).

One common factor in all shown uses of the Zodiac Stone capabilities has been the respondance to the user's feelings at that time--Wiegraf on his near-deathbed at Orbonne, for example, asked him if he wanted help whereas at the Riovanes rooftop, Rafa was not asked a question but could feel that the stone "grieved" Malak's passing. Out of all the theories, being summoned back to the world via the Zodiac Stones seems the most plausible, and I'll admit that. The stones acting of their own free will is something that is not shown in any instance, as even nonverbal communication between the stone and its holder seems to need confirmation before the "wish" is carried out. Is there ample time to have the stone respond to [whoever's] plight and have them respond while everything is falling out of the sky? Perhaps.

Whatever the case may be in any of the ending scenes, it's still all up for grabs as to which the real significance is. Tactics is furtive like that, but that happens to be one of its most endearing qualities.

--------------------

It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

I have one final conclusion that i just though of a second ago.
My conclusion being that The zodiac stones seeing Olans grief over his father or Ramza's death (whichever the case) Showed Olan Ramza and Alma riding on chocobo's as a sign of some sort, or wuite possibly Ramza's spirit showing Olan a sign, either one Showing the sign (in my opinion) that everything was going to be alright.

--------------------

Peace sells... but Whos buyin? -Megadeth


You wont be saying that when you get a
lead pipe across the head -James (Darkness Illusions II)

you never know about stuff like that cuz if it is a message would that mean he is a ghost???

Ramza's appearance could signal a number of things really. It could be a hallucination, a figment of his imagination, a ghost, a memory acting itself out, or even the real thing for all we know.

--------------------

It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

wat about it being a vision of a future son that looks like ramza BUM BUM BUM dadada hahaahaah jk but who knows its could be a clue to that or watever a prophacy hahaha

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Then again, I always thought that as soon as Rofel sends you to Murond Death City... that well, Ramza and the group was killed.

--------------------

This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

meh i beleive that was a near death experience like one of those times that you almost die but you dont

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Then there would have been no reason for them to even attend the funeral, or give anyone the slightest doubt in their mind that they were alive so they the chase could begin again.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

True, unless Ramza's respect for Olan was enough that he deemed it the honorable thing to do to let him know he had lived.

For that matter, Olan and Balmafula were no doubt on the run, as well. Recall what Olan says at the grave:

Quote

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Olan: I'm sorry I'm late... Alma, Ramza. I wanted to come earlier, but it was too dangerous... Too risky...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

They still bothered to show up, though. Granted, one might argue that they had more reason to show up than would Alma and Ramza (to pay their respects), but, again, Ramza and Olan seemed to have a mutual respect for one another that may merit Ramza and Alma showing themselves to him let him know they were alive.

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

A brotherly bond was shared by Delita and Ramza throughout the game's entire duration. Each could have caused trouble for the other, if they had wished, and even with personal dispositions included, they were both (becoming) conscientious of what the other was doing. During the last cutscene, after Ovelia is killed, Hyral's thoughts turn directly to Ramza and what he got out of the whole ordeal. His relationship with Ramza had obviously stagnated somewhat from when they were kids, but there's still remnants of their past friendship even in the dying scenes.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Sure, it's possible Ramza knew, but that still doesn't merit him removing Delita from power. Despite how Delita might have gained the throne, the fact of the matter that was even someone who did that would be better than more strife within the country among its own People.

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Speculation about a Lion War repeat is highly unlikely. With Ovelia dead, there would be no proper heir to the throne, and Orinas would be reigned in with the help of a regent. Bloody conflicts and chaos would be on the low end of the probability scale.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

One of two eventualities are easily possible in that situation:

1) Orinas' caretaker seeking to use that position to gain kingship, likely having Orinas done away with at some point or another. (In actual European history, it is commonly believed that Richard III -- appointed protector to his young nephews (12 and 9 years old), who should have been next in line to the throne -- had his nephews killed so as to usurp the throne for himself. While that hasn't been actually proven beyond all doubt, it is known that before the older of his two nephews could be crowned, he had their entourage intercepted and them taken to the Tower of London, from which they never left. Almost two hundred years later, a box was dug up in the Tower containing the bones (not even all of them) of two children.)

In any event, in-fighting would likely break out as someone would think it unfit for Ornias' protector to be ruling simply because they were his protector, and especially if the child disappeared. Again, there would also be schmucks wanting to be important.

2) With the only heir to the throne being a child under five years old and were Delita killed suddenly and Ovelia already dead, there would likely be fighting over who should even get the position of being Orinas' protector. People tried to use Ovelia. No doubt they would seek to use Orinas to whatever extent they could.

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The Beoulve family's reputation and bloodline would have been nonexistant by that time and living in obscurity could have been the choice he made if he did indeed live through it all. If he choose a life of hiding, there would have been no reason for him to appear at the memorial service--severing all ties would make sure the "dead" heretic stayed dead. Risking his new future for one last glimpse? Not likely.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

It's not as though he showed himself to the entire group of mourners, though.

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Anyone who had mourned and wondered of Ramza and Alma's fate would have been astonished or, at least, glad to know they were safe and sound--Olan said a simple "thank you" as they "left". The scene before the FMV makes me unable to take it at face value.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Astonishment: Olan: "!!" "Wait! Ramza! Alma!"
More astonishment along with gladness: Olan (to Balmafula): "...He's alive! Alive!!"

It's only after that dialogue that Olan and Balmafula stand there staring off in the direction Ramza and Alma were riding that Olan mutters a calm and thoughtful (note the ellipses) "...Thank you. Ramza."

Again, though, Olan isn't present during the ending FMV and -- without his presence -- there's not a reasonable indication that what we're witnessing isn't actually happening.

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Out of all the theories, being summoned back to the world via the Zodiac Stones seems the most plausible, and I'll admit that. The stones acting of their own free will is something that is not shown in any instance...

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Except for this scene, you mean:

Quote

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Rafa: Brother, look...it's dawn. Remember how we used to chat
till dawn about things? I wanted to travel with you. We were
going to go to the Galthana's hometown after the war...
Remember? Brother.... say something....

[Rafa starts to cry.]

(Ramza's thought: Alma...)

[The stone suddenly begins to glow.]

Rafa: What's this?

[Rafa brings out the stone.]

Ramza: It's responding to... Rafa's spirit.........? It
grieves Malak's death......... Wiegraf's despair and
resentment summoned Velius... Then...

Rafa: You, too grieve his death? Thank you...

Ramza: No, Rafa...its...

[The stone glows. A red beam of light comes down from the sky
and enters Malak's body.]

Ramza: ...What?

[Malak moves.]

Malak: Ugh....ugh...

Rafa: Brother...Malak!!

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The Stone acted of its own accord based on Rafa's feelings. There was no consent on her part for it to do anything. It simply reacted to what she felt.

Quote (shotgunnova)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

...as even nonverbal communication between the stone and its holder seems to need confirmation before the "wish" is carried out. Is there ample time to have the stone respond to [whoever's] plight and have them respond while everything is falling out of the sky? Perhaps.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Again, Rafa didn't have to "confirm" an action for the Stone the same way Wiegraf had to say "Help......me....." when the Stone said that it would let him live forever if he would promise himself to it. Anyway, I would think the anxiety of "Oh shit, Altima's about to explode!" would give the Stones something to react to. Considering that it was within their power to bring back the dead, there's really no reasonable question of whether or not it would have been within their power to teleport Ramza and the others away and the only question is "Was there enough time for the Stones to react and respond accordingly?" As you said, perhaps. We're not really given an indication, though, of how much time was needed, whether they had to spend a certain amount of time analyzing someone's feelings before taking action or if they could react instantly.

In any event, I imagine that the Stones wouldn't have really needed confirmation from the group or much time to analyze if they wanted to be away from there. Again, Altima being set to explode would bring out certain feelings that would be easily readable by things that sensed People's feelings. Feelings like "Fuck, I want to be out of here!"

Of course, that still leaves us with the question of how Orlandu died, for -- if he had lived -- no doubt he would have gone to his son, as well.

Quote (DivineKnight)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I have one final conclusion that i just though of a second ago.
My conclusion being that The zodiac stones seeing Olans grief over his father or Ramza's death (whichever the case) Showed Olan Ramza and Alma riding on chocobo's as a sign of some sort, or wuite possibly Ramza's spirit showing Olan a sign, either one Showing the sign (in my opinion) that everything was going to be alright.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

How would that work? All of the Stones were on that ship that exploded with Ramza and his group. They had 11 of them before that point (assuming they had gone on all the sidequests and such that we can paretake of as the player), and the last two would have been present there on the Airship as well (Leo being Hashmalum's Stone and Virgo being Altima's). All of the Stones would have been lost into the void of the Graveyard of Airships.

Quote (Racthoh)

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Then again, I always thought that as soon as Rofel sends you to Murond Death City... that well, Ramza and the group was killed.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Why so? What sent them there was a Magical field that teleported one to Murond:

Quote

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Vormav: That wound is deep, but not fatal. If you treat it
soon, you'll be ok. Now, if you value your life, tell me where
the entrance to Murond is!!

Funeral: Orbonne...A sealed Magic Square at the bottom of the
underground library.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Murond had been lost at the time of the death of St. Ajora (likely because he had exploded the same then as Altima does in the present), supposedly sending Murond into the sea. Of course, the game is unclear as to whether or not all of Murond sank into the sea (as one would have to wonder why Ramza and the others weren't fighting in water once they got there), or if some of the ruins were still above the surface. Does that mean some of the ruins were still above the sea, or even if Murond had been sent to another dimension even? Your guess is probably as good as mine, and with a Magical gate being needed in order to gain access to Murond any longer, I would think either is as likely as the other.

In any event, no one in Murond was Undead and characters could still die in battle with the little countdown appearing above their body, and with their spirits becoming crystals if the timers should reach zero, suggesting that they weren't dead simply because they were in Murond.

By the way, shotgunnova, in order to make things that you're quoting invisible, simply put Spoiler Tags within the Quote Tags.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 26th February 2005 18:25

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

ok, i have a few theories but im unsure as to how much clearer they'll be compared to anyone elses.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

ok, first: i like to think they all lived. after defeating ajora and the ship graveyard exploding, i figured things might turn out bad. once i saw the funeral, i was dissapointed but ready to accept that fact that they died honorably. after the funeral, when olan sees alma and ramza, i completely understood what was going on. you see, they had lived, all of them, but like you mostly mentioned, showing themselves to the world seemed pointless. theyd done what they had to do to save the world, and now that it was in peace, returning to it as the "heretics" they were would only cause more trouble. they understood this, and left intentionally, infact, they practically died for their country's sake, whether they could live in it or not. as far as the FMV not showing the other characters, thats simple. the characters you chose for your party at the end are completely variable. the only ones you HAD to have are ramza and alma, therefore theyre the only ones they could show in the FMV without making a mistake. just like the ending of FFVII, they only show lead characters, discluding yuffie and vincent, because theyre not sure if u have em or not. also, about them escaping the ship graveyard, its probably the work of the zodiac stones, and whether or not they could act in time is ridiculous because with the power to grant life, im sure they could send them out of there quickly enough.

um, thats my opinion.

--------------------

"You and I have unfinished business, and not a goddamn fucking thing you've done in the subsequent four years, including getting knocked up, is gonna change that."
Beatrix Kiddo, Kill Bill vol.1

I enjoy how it's all kept ambiguous, but if I have to pick one? Yeah, I think they

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

died and it's more of a spectral thing. As I recall, wasn't Balmafula there? And she didn't react like she saw them. Also, if they /had/ lived, it would have made Ovelia stabbing Delita all the more tragic -- since it's implied she thinks Delita indirectly killed Ramza.

Another argument in this same category, but one that I'm actually willing to argue to my grave, is whether Delita

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

died in the scene mentioned above. I am 100% certain he did /not/, mainly from the beginning where we're told he had a long and peaceful rule.

Which makes things sadder.

--------------------

Some ghost of me might greet my son
the day he is delivered.


Eternal Sleep, Track 1-1: The Blue Planet