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Quote (Mu the Squirrel @ 23rd February 2005 01:13)

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1. I never said they weren't solid. I said they were formed from the Jenova cells through Sephie's will.

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Well, you said they were mental projections. Your wording just suggested intangible astral projections. Sorry for misunderstanding.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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2. He was a child born as part of Jenova, of course his mind could resist the lifestream that's what Hojo created him for.

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What are you talking about? o.O This is one of those times where you need to provide some evidence for what you're arguing. Why would a biological factor such as having JENOVA's Cells constituting much of his body have any part in a spiritual matter such as the Lifestream reclaiming the Spirit Energy it loaned to Sephiroth at conception?

And what do you mean "That's what Hojo created him for"? The JENOVA Project was Professor Gast's. We're not even told what the intention behind it was, though we can infer that it was to create a new Cetra due to them believing JENOVA to be a Cetra. Based on Shin-Ra's behavior during the game's present, it probably also wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that they wanted this new Cetra to lead them to the Promised Land. These are things that are speculation, yes, but are based on what we know Shin-Ra to be like and what we see them do. Can you please explain where there was ever an indication that Gast, Hojo, or the other Shin-Ra executives ever once thought about something to the effect of "We need someone who can resist the Lifestream"?

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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3. Evidence: He had no lower half. Lower halves don't just fall off.

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He sort of fell through a Reactor, though, Mu. Linkage. That's a little bit more simple an explanation than "A new body is randomly forming for him and his Spirit Energy wasn't absorbed by the Lifestream like it was supposed to be," or "JENOVA Cells are forming into a new body for him, but didn't make a complete body for some reason, despite them having formed a complete Sephiroth form on at least one another occasion."

The principle of Occam's Razor states that "All things being equal, the most simple explanation is the best."

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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What the game said was the lifestream flowed to the wound, and that is where Seph's soul ended up, at the heart. Bangenhagen showed how the stream did flow, and at one point in the game it did say Seph wasn't absorbed into the lifestream, I just can't remember where, and I'm not replaying FF7 for this.

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If Sephiroth's soul had rejoined the Lifestream, explain if you would, please, why his will would be greater than that of the swell of millions if not billions of other souls. The Lifestream is composed of the collective consciousness of all those who have ever lived and died. Sephiroth is one being that has lived. Typically, a single drop of the ocean cannot drown the rest. It's like spitting in the ocean and expecting your spit to turn the rest of it into spit. That won't happen.

By the way, I don't expect you to play through the game to find the point you're trying to speak of. If you could just check the script, that would save you a lot of time and be a lot faster, or if you could just tell me generally where to look.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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4. There are...JENOVA 'things' growing in pods at the Nibel reactor. I'm sure you remember the scene. While Seph wasn't created this way, there's also no proof no one else was.

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Those People were not being grown in those pods, however. They were other People that had been experimented on by Hojo:

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Sephiroth
        "...now I see, Hojo."
        "But, even doing this, will never put you on the same level as
Professor Gast."

(To Cloud)

Sephiroth
        "This is a system that condenses and freezes the Mako energy...
that is, when it's working correctly."
        "Now, what does Mako energy become when it's further condensed?"

Cloud
        "Uh, umm...... Oh yeah!  It becomes a Materia."

Sephiroth
        "Right, normally. But Hojo put something else in there. ...Take
a look."
        "Look through the window."

(Cloud hops up, peers into the pod and sees... a hideous, unnatural
monster. He lets go of his handhold below the portal and lands sitting on
the floor.)

Cloud
        "Wh... what is this!?"

Sephiroth
        "Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered
with Mako."
        "You're different from the others, but still human."
        "But what are they? They've been exposed to a high degree of
Mako, far more than you."

(Cloud gets to his feet.)

Cloud
        "...Is this some kind of monster?"

Sephiroth
        "Exactly. And it's Hojo if Shinra that produced these monsters."
        "Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what
these monsters really are."

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"Mutated living organisms" would be the key words there. Again, Occam's Razor applies. If Hojo was somehow making life out of nothing but JENOVA Cells and Mako, that brings up a whole lof of questions. Particularly "How?" and "Why didn't monsters start forming inside of Cloud and the Sephiroth Clones, as they would have had Mako and JENOVA Cells uniting within them?"

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

Please keep in mind you too are working with conjecture and not total fact because the game dun offer total fact

Believe me, I know. The game's Meteor-sized plotholes have frustrated me for the last seven years.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 23rd February 2005 07:24

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Quote (Squall of SeeD)

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We're not even told what the intention behind it was, though we can infer that it was to create a new Cetra due to them believing JENOVA to be a Cetra.

Squalleh, wtf are you talking about? O.o

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The game does tell us that the purpose of the Jenova Project was to create people with the powers of the Cetra:

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Sephiroth
         "The Jenova Project wanted to produce people with the powers of
the Ancients..... no, the Cetra."

Edit -- I hate these Spoiler Tags.

This post has been edited by Luthien Rogue on 24th February 2005 03:59

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~I'll teach you all this, in eight easy steps, in the course of a lifetime you'll never forgot. I'll show you how to, in eight easy steps, I'll show you how leadership looks when taught by the best.~

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A point of conflict with this matter, however, is that the Sephiroth form on the Shin-Ra Cargo Ship didn't recognize Cloud:

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I'd taken that into consideration and will get to it later, but I want to begin by saying that we're getting into a gray area of speculation. It could go either way, really, and I accept that it's possible that Jenova is manipulating the entire situation. Having said that, I'm still of the opinion it was actually Sephiroth and I'll now proceed to defend that opinion.

Tiddles mentioned that he found it hard to believe that Jenova was contained by Professor Hojo for so long only to suddenly decide "hey, it's time to break free." I agree with this. Further evidence that Jenova was rendered almost entirely immobile are her remaining calm and contained during Ghast's experiments and also during her stay at Nibelheim. It's only in Midgar that she suddenly decides it's time for freedom.

Why? Perhaps because it wasn't her consciousness that suddenly materialized, it was Sephiroth's. Keep in mind that when Jenova does finally break free she chooses to take the form of Sephiroth before she kills President Shinra. Why would Jenova feel the need to imitate Sephiroth? There doesn't seem to be a clear motive. Sephiroth, on the other hand, would certainly feel the need to recreate Jenova in his image. He would want his enemies, particularly those in Shinra, to know he was responsible.

As for not being able to identify Cloud:

Cloud was in a grunt uniform when he skewered Sephiroth at Nibelheim. Sephiroth wouldn't have recognized the SOLDIER uniform or, if he did, he would have recognized it as Zack's. Also, when Cloud says, "Sephiroth, it's me, Cloud," Cloud is assuming the name will mean something to Sephiroth because he's still confusing his own memories with Zack's. Cloud thinks he and Sephiroth particpated in many missions together when, in all likelihood, Sephiroth never even took the time to learn Cloud's name. Why should the most elite member of SOLDIER waste his time cozying up to a tactiturn grunt? All indications seem to be that Cloud, the torchbearer for those with a lack of self-confidence, would not have done anything to elicit Sephiroth's attention prior to throwing him into the lifestream.

As the game progresses, and Cloud continues to pursue Sephiroth, Sephiroth has more of an opportunity to tap into his mind. It's only later on that the clones, and Cloud, truly feel the call of the reunion, indicating that it took Sephiroth time to fully regain his strength. When he was finally able to see into Cloud's consciousness, I'm sure he would be very happy to learn who it was he had found.

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Who chose him? Who gave him these orders? We don't see anyone say these things to him, so in the event that Sephiroth truly said these things to Zack and Cloud wasn't just confused in his recollection of events (as he was with so much else), then something was telling him these things.

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I don't doubt that Jenova also had access to Sephiroth's mind. They certainly interacted with one another and perhaps, as Mu suggested, it's not a matter of one overpowering the other but of them both being one.

But don't you find it odd that Jenova never spoke to Sephiroth prior to Nibelheim? She had plenty of opportunities to tap into her "son's" mind, but she only does so after he has learned about his "true" identity. I think that's an odd coincidence. Is it possible? Sure, but I find it more likely that Sephiroth learned of his true (or semi-true) past and then proceeded to go insane. He does burn an entire village and slaughter its populace. Maybe HE chose that moment to tap into Jenova's mind. Or maybe he's just crazy and that's why he heard voices in his head.

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Any argument that Sephiroth('s)... will was too strong is defeating itself, really, as anyone that would wreak massive slaughter and raze a town to the ground... is completely insane. That's not a logical reason to strike out. There is no sound reasoning in such an action.

Any way one slices it, Sephiroth was weak. If you, however, have reason to believe otherwise, please do let me know. I'll be interested in reading it.

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Having an unstable and/or unreasonable mind does not preclude a lack of willpower. History has provided many examples of evil/paranoid/insane people that could still be called "intelligent," for lack of a word with negative connotation, and determined. A few examples are Adolf Hitler (evil), Josef Stalin (paranoid), and Charles Manson (insane). It is possible to be mentally unstable and still maintain a very, very strong will.

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I agree with you in a way. Though it's doubtful that Sephiroth would have had a reason to hold a grudge, as -- if Sephiroth were in control -- he would have had nothing but reason to thank Cloud, as throwing him into the Lifestream would have ended up working out for him better far than his other plan and would have granted him access to a great deal of knowledge.

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Yeah, but dude, we're talking about Sephiroth. You spent the earlier part of your post completing discrediting his mental strength, and now you expect him to think logically? C'mon man...he's craaaaaaaaaazy!

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In all fairness, JENOVA has yet to be destroyed. Its head is still around in Advent Children. Anyway, I also interpret that scene as being a battle of wills, like yourself, though I imagine JENOVA must have been the link between the two even then. Your thoughts?

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Ah. I didn't know Jenova's head appeared in Advent Children. I try to avoid too much word of mouth when I think I'll find something interesting. I made the mistake of participating in an FF7 forum before the game was released and learned of Aeris' death. That moment was still very emotional, but I can only imagine what it would have been had I not known.

Anyway, learning about Jenova's head doesn't ruin anything, and it backs up what you said 100%. Even had you not presented this evidence, I still would have said yes to your question. Jenova is what binds Sephiroth to the clones, to the body part replicas, and to Cloud. However, I think that final scene indicates that Sephiroth himself, and not Jenova, is really the one that takes a special interest in Cloud. The sadistic grin of joy on Sephiroth's face as Cloud approaches is enough evidence for me.

P.S. Thanks for explaining the use of the clones as a plot device. I'll accept that explanation.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 24th February 2005 00:48

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Tiddles mentioned that he found it hard to believe that Jenova was contained by Professor Hojo for so long only to suddenly decide "hey, it's time to break free."  I agree with this.  Further evidence that Jenova was rendered almost entirely immobile are her remaining calm and contained during Ghast's experiments and also during her stay at Nibelheim.  It's only in Midgar that she suddenly decides it's time for freedom.

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I don't think it was a matter of JENOVA deciding to sit around and do nothing. As you said, JENOVA was incapacitated. We have to keep in mind that the creature had been sealed away for 2,000 years pretty damn well if a being of the psychokinetic ability that JENOVA is shown to be could be effectively rendered immobile and unable to escape, not even able to phase through its prison. 2,000 years of imprisonment and another 25 of being a guineau pig no doubt made the creature weak.

However, Ifalna states that despite JENOVA having been confined, it could reawaken and that the Planet was still watching it. It knew the threat had not passed:

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"Even though Jenova is confined, it could come back to life at
some time..."
        "The Planet has not fully healed itself yet. It is still watching
Jenova."

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She said this a good seven to eight years after JENOVA had been uncovered, and about 17 years before Sephiroth flipped out in Nibelheim.

This matter I personally interpret as more evidence toward it being JENOVA in control. The creature was weak and -- though freed by Shin-Ra -- was still confined and was hooked up to that Reactor, with its Cell material being drained into those pods outside its room. Sephiroth's erratic behavior in Nibelheim extended to what he did regarding JENOVA. He believed the creature to be dead. With this in mind, why was he trying to take the body? Did he not think it would decompose when seperated from those machines? Why -- when wounded by Cloud beyond the point of being able to carry the whole body -- did he take just the head? Why would he wish to do this?

While one could argue that he was insane and was doing it for this reason -- and they may not be wrong -- considering that he had gone about saying that he had been chosen and given orders and was then doing something as irrational (for him) as taking the head of his beloved "Mother," whereas this would have been exactly what JENOVA -- a creature confined for over 2,000 years and poked, prodded, and drained for 25 years after being "freed" and, thus, still weak -- would have needed: For at least some part of it to get free and to begin regaining strength.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Keep in mind that when Jenova does finally break free she chooses to take the form of Sephiroth before she kills President Shinra. Why would Jenova feel the need to imitate Sephiroth? There doesn't seem to be a clear motive. Sephiroth, on the other hand, would certainly feel the need to recreate Jenova in his image. He would want his enemies, particularly those in Shinra, to know he was responsible.

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A possibility, no doubt. Another is that it was simply trying to trick Shin-Ra into believing their elite soldier had returned rogue so as to lead them on a wild goose chase and prevent them from, perhaps, managing to confine the creature once again. It's obvious that the being (Sephiroth or JENOVA) wanted Shin-Ra to head in a certain direction to begin with, while also wanting AVALANCHE to follow it (first to the Temple of the Ancients, and then to the Reunion). The fact that it took on the guise of Sephiroth and walked through towns rather than around them or flying above them shows us this, as the form of Sephiroth stuck out in a crowd and everywhere AVALANCHE went, someone seemed to have noticed the "man in the Black Cape," often being able to give them directions as to which direction he had been heading.

If the being (whether Sephiroth or JENOVA) had not wanted to be seen, it didn't have to be. Technically, both would have a motive for making theirself stick out in a crowd (to get AVALANCHE to follow), and that JENOVA would have been the one to choose to send Shin-Ra off on a wild goose chase is as likely as Sephiroth having chosen to do so. The matter of the form taken doesn't really suggest one of the two between JENOVA and Sephiroth more than it does the other.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Sephiroth wouldn't have recognized the SOLDIER uniform or, if he did, he would have recognized it as Zack's. Also, when Cloud says, "Sephiroth, it's me, Cloud," Cloud is assuming the name will mean something to Sephiroth because he's still confusing his own memories with Zack's. Cloud thinks he and Sephiroth particpated in many missions together when, in all likelihood, Sephiroth never even took the time to learn Cloud's name. Why should the most elite member of SOLDIER waste his time cozying up to a tactiturn grunt? All indications seem to be that Cloud, the torchbearer for those with a lack of self-confidence, would not have done anything to elicit Sephiroth's attention prior to throwing him into the lifestream.

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Whether extremely pissed off at Cloud or extremely thankful to him (for throwing him into the Lifestream), one would think that Sephiroth would have recognized him for that reason if nothing else. For that matter, the indication the game gives us is that Sephiroth knew a pretty good bit about Cloud. He obviously knew that Cloud was from Nibelheim and spoke to him in a friendly enough manner about it ("It's your first time back to your hometown in a long time, right? How does it feel? I wouldn't know because I don't have a hometown..."; note that this was actual dialogue and not a misconceived memory, as even when we begin to be shown the real events of the past (with Cloud in the blue soldier outfit) Sephiroth still asks him this question) and while that information could have arguably just been in a report handed to Sephiroth about those who would be accompanying him, Zack -- someone who likely had served with Sephiroth before -- seemed to be friendly with Cloud and did know his name:

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Zack
        "Hey, Cloud. If you're feeling sick, why don't you take that mask
off?"

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Also, as Cloud would have been one of the regular soldiers assigned to Sephiroth's unit, this would likely mean that the soldier in blue that told Cloud (in the Kalm flashback) that being on watch is boring was actually Cloud, as Cloud/Zack then said "You want to do what we always do?" (meaning practice Zack's SOLDIER pose) with the soldier in blue then expressing an interest in whether or not People in SOLDIER always had to worry about what others thought of them. This is very much something Cloud would have worried about, and that soldier was him, no doubt.

With Zack and Cloud on a first name basis and Zack saying "You want to do what we always do?" (suggesting they're around one another regularly), this would suggest -- at the very least -- that Zack served with Cloud regularly, and seeing as how Zack had likely served with Sephiroth before, it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to conceive that Cloud had been around Sephiroth before the mission to Nibelheim. Cloud certainly never suggests that it was the first time he had been around him.

Further still, Sephiroth seemed to have been around Cloud enough to have formed an opinion of him. In the Mt. Nibel Reactor, after Cloud wounds Sephiroth and leaves JENOVA's Room to move Tifa aside, Sephiroth emerges from JENOVA's Room with JENOVA's head in tow. As he stands at the top of the stairs and looks down at Cloud standing over the severly wounded Tifa, he says "Just like you" and then descends the stairs and leaves.

What did Sephiroth mean by this? We can't be certain. Possibly something to the effect of "Just like you to worry about a woman instead of finishing off your opponent." We can't be certain on that count, but we can be certain that he seemed to have formed an opinion of Cloud, which he likely wouldn't have been able to do if he had not been around him much before this point.

In light of the strong possibility that Sephiroth and Cloud had been around one another a fair amount of time before Cloud threw Sephiroth into the Lifestream (far stronger than the possibility that they weren't, seeing as how we only have suggestions that they were), I see no reason to believe that Sephiroth wouldn't have recognized Cloud immediately, especially with him of all People being the one to have thrown him into the Lifestream.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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But don't you find it odd that Jenova never spoke to Sephiroth prior to Nibelheim? She had plenty of opportunities to tap into her "son's" mind, but she only does so after he has learned about his "true" identity.

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Honestly, no, I don't find it odd. Again, JENOVA was incapacitated for God only knows how long, but we do know that it was capable of rising again due to Ifalna stating it was so and that the Planet was still watching JENOVA, even going so far as to say the Planet would never be able to fully heal so long as JENOVA remained. As we don't know when JENOVA awakened, I can't say whether the creature might have been too weak to reach out to Sephiroth until he was close by, or if his very presence might have triggered its reawakening. Personally, I would vote in favor of the former, but that aside, Sephiroth's behavior begins becoming erratic even before he enters the Shinra Mansion's library.

If you'll recall, the moment he begins questioning his existance (something which we know weakened Cloud's mental fortitude), Sephiroth begins clutching his head (just as Cloud did upon several occasions, his mind being entered being some of these). Sephiroth then begins slashing at one of the pods with his Masamune.

This either means that Sephiroth was extremely unstable before he even had reason to be (he didn't really have a lot of reason at this point to think he was created any differently from other folks; he hadn't read the Shinra Mansion's journals yet, and he believed he had a Homo Sapien mother that had died giving birth to him), or something was playing with his head and he was reacting erratically to the intrusion.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Having an unstable and/or unreasonable mind does not preclude a lack of willpower. History has provided many examples of evil/paranoid/insane people that could still be called "intelligent," for lack of a word with negative connotation, and determined. A few examples are Adolf Hitler (evil), Josef Stalin (paranoid), and Charles Manson (insane). It is possible to be mentally unstable and still maintain a very, very strong will.

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A fair enough point. Though if Sephiroth's sudden outburst in the pod room was entirely a product of his own mental stability, one has to wonder why Shin-Ra let this guy out at all except for on the battlefield. I can't imagine how something like "Prone to lashing out without reasonable provocation" would escape a psychological examination that anyone in the military would have had to undergo.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Even had you not presented this evidence, I still would have said yes to your question. Jenova is what binds Sephiroth to the clones, to the body part replicas, and to Cloud. However, I think that final scene indicates that Sephiroth himself, and not Jenova, is really the one that takes a special interest in Cloud. The sadistic grin of joy on Sephiroth's face as Cloud approaches is enough evidence for me.

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Fair enough. Though, for the record, I wouldn't argue that JENOVA was controlling Sephiroth like one would control their television set. It really wouldn't even be necessary, one would think. If ideas could be fed straight into his head without him even knowing they weren't his own, one would have no need to outright control him to get him to do certain things.


Another point I want to bring up is the final battles of the game. Throughout the game when the party meets "Sephiroth," "he" won't shut the fuck up. He really seems to enjoy hearing himself talk, or even just laugh. However, once the Reunion was complete and Meteor brought forward, aside from a laugh that Cloud says he hears in his head in the Northern Crater, there's not one thing said by "Sephiroth" beyond that point. There was no longer a need to manipulate anyone, sure, but one would think that -- after all the taunting of Cloud that had taken place before this point -- that "Sephiroth" would have spent the last moment before killing him and claiming his godhood taunting him one final time or telling AVALANCHE how futile their efforts were.

This isn't to say that Sephiroth was necessarily being outright controlled, but "he" certainly was no longer the Sephiroth we had seen throughout most of the game. At the least I would say that JENOVA and Sephiroth had become one. Sephiroth's form being saved for the last battles instead of JENOVA-SYNTHESIS is often cited as an indication that Sephiroth was the true villain, but seeing as how it's said that Sephiroth's body was going to be used to absorb the Lifestream -- and with us being given no indication that JENOVA could absorb Lifestream into itself, as it wasn't of the Planet as Sephiroth was -- (were JENOVA able to absorb the Lifestream on its own, one has to wonder why it ever bothered to leave the Northern Crater in the first place and didn't just remain there, sucking it up, 2,000 years before the main events of the game) it would be a fair interpretation that JENOVA was simply saving its Spirit Energy sponge (and future host body) as a last resort.

Your thoughts?

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 24th February 2005 19:35

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

I'm going to make this my last post. I think we've covered a lot of ground and both provided plenty of evidence for our opinions. I think both are valid in light of the game's open-ended nature.

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Re: Cloud. Your post convinced me that Sephiroth did indeed know who Cloud was (at Nibelheim). Furthermore, I now remember Cloud taking off his helmet before he and Sephiroth squared off.

I have two possible explanations for why he didn't recognize Cloud on the boat:

1) Sephiroth's mind was still weak. This theory can be grounded in that the clones are only gradually called to the reunion (indicating Sephiroth's mental strength needed time to rejuvinate).

2) He did know who Cloud was. This is just the first instance of him toying with Cloud.

I have no evidence for number 2--pure guesswork. Still possible, however. I like to believe it's Sephiroth for reason 1.

EDIT: If anyone who thinks it's Sephiroth has a better explanation for this, please post. I think it's the only hole in my theory.

Quote (Squall of SeeD)

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Sephiroth's behavior begins becoming erratic even before he enters the Shinra Mansion's library.

If you'll recall, the moment he begins questioning his existance...Sephiroth begins clutching his head...(and) then begins slashing at one of the pods with his Masamune.

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True. However, the dialogue indicates that Sephiroth clutches his head because this is when he begins to question his origins:

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[Sephiroth
         "Normal members of SOLDIER are humans that have been showered
with Mako."
         "You're different from the others, but still human."
         "But what are they? They've been exposed to a high degree of
Mako, far more than you."

(Cloud gets to his feet.)

Cloud
         "...Is this some kind of monster?"

Sephiroth
         "Exactly. And it's Hojo if Shinra that produced these monsters."
         "Mutated living organisms produced by Mako energy. That's what
these monsters really are."

Cloud
         "Normal members of SOLDIER? You mean you're different?"

(Sephiroth clutches his head, trembling.)

Cloud
         "H... hey, Sephiroth!"

(He puts out his hand.)

Sephiroth
         "N... no...."

(Sephiroth stops trembling.)

Sephiroth
         "...Was I?"

(He draws his sword and begins furiously attacking the pods. Cloud jumps
away.)

Sephiroth
         "...Was I created this way too?"

(He slashes at the first pod.)

Sephiroth
         "Am I the same as all these monsters....."

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Sephiroth is clutching his head because he's starting to piece together the puzzle. At least, he thinks he is.

Quote (Squall of SeeD)

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[Though if Sephiroth's sudden outburst in the pod room was entirely a product of his own mental stability, one has to wonder why Shin-Ra let this guy out at all except for on the battlefield

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I actually think Sephiroth was quite stable up until that point. The dialogue you quoted between him and Cloud in Nibelheim indicates as much. Again, I think he first questioned his existence when he was looking into the pod, and it was at THAT moment that his sanity started to strip away. Doing research at the Shina Mansion reaffirmed his suspicions and sent him spiraling further. That's also the reason I don't think Jenova was "speaking" to him at that point.

As for why he stole the body: I'm under the impression that Sephiroth went insane because he believed he was Jenova's "son" (a test tube baby of some sort). In his mania, he decided he was going to fulfill "her" mission and stole her body.

One last thing to wrap up why I think Sephiroth is the main antagonist: Iflana's statement still doesn't explain why Jenova awoke in Midgar and, after doing so, decided she was going to look like Sephiroth. She was incapacitated for so long, including, in my opinion, while at Nibelheim. Just seems like a strange time to wake up and decide "I'm going to look like Sephiroth." I choose to believe it's Sephiroth controlling her and recreating her in his own image. A theory, but I believe a fair one.

As for why Sephiroth doesn't talk at the end: you said it yourself, there was nothing more for him to say. He had the black materia and Meteor had been summoned, all he really had to do was wait.

I don't think it was the end of his taunting, however. I love the smile on his face in the final scene where Cloud's approaching. So smug...so confident. Cloud's proven he's a worthy warrior by that point, but Sephiroth is still convinced this peon poses no threat. The look of utter surprise on his face after Cloud lays the smack down also seems to back this up, as if he can't believe he's been beaten by the grunt...AGAIN!...and this time it's endgame.

I'm going to bow out of the conversation at this point, but I look forward to reading your response. I'd like to thank you for a really great conversation, without question the best I've had since joining CoN.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 25th February 2005 13:19

Quote (KefkaLives @ 24th February 2005 19:37)

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Re: Cloud.  Your post convinced me that Sephiroth did indeed know who Cloud was (at Nibelheim).  Furthermore, I now remember Cloud taking off his helmet before he and Sephiroth squared off. 

I have two possible explanations for why he didn't recognize Cloud on the boat:

1) Sephiroth's mind was still weak.  This theory can be grounded in that the clones are only gradually called to the reunion (indicating Sephiroth's mental strength needed time to rejuvinate).

2) He did know who Cloud was.  This is just the first instance of him toying with Cloud.

I have no evidence for number 2--pure guesswork.  Still possible, however.  I like to believe it's Sephiroth for reason 1.

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As you said concerning the second point, that one's really stretching things. With the first, it may be possible, though it seems a bit unlikely in that Dio says a fellow wearing a black outfit and with a tattoo on his hand had been questioning him about the Black Materia, and someone in North Corel makes mention of this same fellow having headed to the ropeway to the Gold Saucer beforehand. North Corel is the first town that the party visits after landing at Costa Del Sol, so it seems a bit unlikely to me that Sephiroth would have gone from having little to no control over the Clones to them suddenly doing his bidding in the span of one evening to the next day.

In either case, I'm not sure what Sephiroth's mind being weak would have to do with him forgetting Cloud (or, indeed, why his mind would have been weak at all at this point if he was the manipulator behind everything).

Quote (KefkaLives)

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However, the dialogue indicates that Sephiroth clutches his head because this is when he begins to question his origins...

...

Sephiroth is clutching his head because he's starting to piece together the puzzle.  At least, he thinks he is.

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That's a far enough point and, either way, the events coincide with one another, so it's really a matter of which one interprets as being the result of the other. While it may simply be that Sephiroth was clutching his head because of that, I'm sure you can see why I find it more than a bit suspicious that he was suddenly doing the same thing Cloud frequently did under similar circumstances that Cloud was put under. Likewise, I can see where you're coming from.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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As for why Sephiroth doesn't talk at the end: you said it yourself, there was nothing more for him to say.  He had the black materia and Meteor had been summoned, all he really had to do was wait.

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True, but it was exceedingly out of character. He usually had more dialogue than most of the folks in the scenes with him throughout the game, then he's suddenly not speaking at all. I find that quite odd, myself.

Quote (KefkaLives)

I'm going to bow out of the conversation at this point, but I look forward to reading your response.  I'd like to thank you for a really great conversation, without question the best I've had since joining CoN.

It was a good discussion, indeed. ^^ I hope for another with you in the future. Take care.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 25th February 2005 05:51

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

A couple things I noticed about the two battle forms of Sephiroth that may be relevant -

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

First, Bizarro Sephiroth. This form of Sephiroth is very demonic looking. The battle takes place in a very evil-looking place. And there is a Jenova Synthesis form directly attached to him. This probably represents the part of Sephiroth that takes its power from the influence of Jenova. In fact, one might say this is the part of Sephiroth that is under Jenova's control.

However, in the battle with Safer Sephiroth, there is no sign of Jenova, only Sephiroth elevating himself as a god with the power of all the Spirit Energy he collected. This represents the free side of Sephiroth, the side in control of himself and of Jenova. And even without Jenova, this is the stronger side. Super Nova, anyone?

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My soul is bound to the Mistress of the Afterlife, and my fealty is to her always. So let's just hope she doesn't use it as one of her ten daily meals.

Quote (The Celestial @ 25th February 2005 03:25)

A couple things I noticed about the two battle forms of Sephiroth that may be relevant -

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

First, Bizarro Sephiroth. This form of Sephiroth is very demonic looking. The battle takes place in a very evil-looking place. And there is a Jenova Synthesis form directly attached to him. This probably represents the part of Sephiroth that takes its power from the influence of Jenova. In fact, one might say this is the part of Sephiroth that is under Jenova's control.

However, in the battle with Safer Sephiroth, there is no sign of Jenova, only Sephiroth elevating himself as a god with the power of all the Spirit Energy he collected. This represents the free side of Sephiroth, the side in control of himself and of Jenova. And even without Jenova, this is the stronger side. Super Nova, anyone?

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

In the battle with Safer Sephiroth, his right arm has been replaced by a wing that appears to be composed of the colors of previously fought JENOVA forms, notably JENOVA-BIRTH.

I would take that as something of a sign of JENOVA's Cells' presence, as are all of the wings for that matter, at least in the sense that they're the reason the transformations are possible. Whether that means anything about who may or may not have been in control is up in the air, but JENOVA was certainly still present. For that matter, as long as his body was present, so too would JENOVA be, as his own body was half-composed of JENOVA's Cells.

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

I am currently playing through another game (I just left Midgar) and I still believe with what has been previously posted here.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

After Cloud kills Sephiroth 5 years ago in Nibelheim, Sewphiroth went to the Lifestream and his body now rests in Norhtern Crater. He has possession of Hojo's Sephiroth-clones and Cloud and he brings them all to him in the North Cave for the Jenova reunion. The Sephiroth you follow at the time of my current location is Hojo's first and best Sephiroth-clone success and is the one that the real Sephiroth has the most control over. I will repeat the thoughts of another previous post here when I notice that after Cloud gives Sephiroth the Black Materia at the North Cave, Cloud heads to the North Cave to fight against THE Sephiroth, himself. All the clones (save Cloud) are either dead or have combined with Sephiroth's body and Cloud and party are going after the real Sephiroth, who I believe, has been there since the beginning of the game.

Just my take on it. I may have to come to that part again to answer my own unanswered questions...

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"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

@ FabulousFreebird

Quote

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The Sephiroth you follow at the time of my current location is Hojo's first and best Sephiroth-clone success and is the one that the real Sephiroth has the most control over.

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Sephiroth Clones don't look like Sephiroth, though...

~Rogue



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~I'll teach you all this, in eight easy steps, in the course of a lifetime you'll never forgot. I'll show you how to, in eight easy steps, I'll show you how leadership looks when taught by the best.~

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I must've misunderstood the game (hence why I'm replaying). I was under the impression that "Sephiroth-clones" were Jenova-injected humans, but then again, that is also wrong. Disregard my last post.

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"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Well, I remembered the wing, but I never noticed the connection to Jenova until you brought it up. So I went back and smacked him around a little, and I think you're right about that.

It brings up an interesting symbolic point, too. In that battle, Sephiroth is quite literally using Jenova as his right hand. The symbolic meaning of this right hand use, well, just look at the common phrases "right hand man" and "right hand of God" and you pretty much get the idea. This lends creedence to my theory that Safer Sephiroth is the side that is in control of himself and Jenova.

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My soul is bound to the Mistress of the Afterlife, and my fealty is to her always. So let's just hope she doesn't use it as one of her ten daily meals.