Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

Ok so is Cloud real or not? Was he really with Sephiroth and Tifa in the story Cloud told everyone in the first town? First it seems like yes. Then no. Then yes. Then no. So I'm confused. It's like, is that your final answer? No? Yes? Maybe??

--------------------

FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

from what i understand, yes. he was a clone of sephiroth, created by Hojo. however, the results were not what Hojo wanted, and so he was marked as a failed experiment. though he was a failed clone, they still used him as a Shinra soldier. he was there with Seph and Tifa at Nibelheim. he was the soldier that didn't fall to his death. i think that about sums it up.

--------------------

moé in the streets, senpai in the sheets

After his escape from the Shinra Mansion with Zack, Cloud was on the edge of death. He was recovered by Hojo and was injected full of Jenova cells and Mako. The cells are manipulative and have corrupted his mind. His body is real, but his mind is not his own. The story that was told in Khalm is pretty much the story of Zack.

Malevolence, he failed to make it into the advanced class of the *army* known as SOLDIER. He stayed in the army, but was much lower in rank. He was reconstructed by Hojo after the incident in Nibelheim.

This post has been edited by Max on 16th February 2005 02:52

--------------------

Yeah, I barely post.

Right. He was the surviving blue-uniformed regular Shinra guard. Sephiroth got the Masamune through him before he was thrown into the Lifestream, so he was in a pretty poor state, as was Zack when Hojo found them and experimented on them in the Shinra Mansion basement. But he's the same Cloud as the young boy from Nibelheim.

There's no question of Hojo "creating" Cloud; that's simply false. He couldn't handle the high levels of Jenova poisoning he received in the basement, which wrecked his mind (remember that part of being in SOLDIER involved being infected with Jenova cells; in that past, the selectors had probably run some tests when Cloud had wanted to join and prevented it on discovering this very weakness, whereas Zack's higher tolerance allowed entry).

Zack and Cloud were escaping to Midgar to be mercenaries when Zack was shot dead by Shinra guards (it was during this escape that Cloud received his battered SOLDIER uniform, Zack's spare). They left Cloud, thinking he was as good as dead anyway. He managed to pick up Zack's buster sword and continue to Midgar anyway, where he was found by Tifa at a station. It was apparently his recognition of Tifa that caused his memory and consciousness to start recovering, albeit very much confused with Zack's.

I thought it was Mako poisening that made Cloud go crazy or are you talking about anoter scene that I forgot about. I don't even remember when the last time I played FF VII was so I'm not sure.

Yeah, he was there. Cloud was the regular blue grunt soldier (not to be confused with the elite group, SOLDIER of course). The truth behind what happened all of those years ago was supposedly revealed in the flashback scene in the life stream, him and Tifa "figured it out, together" somehow. To help further that, Cloud summerizes most of this infromation with the rest of the group at the airship and just about speaks of it like it is the absolute truth. It's confusing but remember that everybody was trying to confuse Cloud. In fact, even Cloud was lying to himself thinking that he was Zack so just ignore everything you learn about Cloud's past. That is, at least up until the scene in the lifestream when the lying finally stops. Trust me, it's much easier that way.

Yeah, Sephiroth actually was lying to Cloud so he could manipulate him with a little more ease. What a big surprise that was.

Edit

In addition to the above, I'd like to add that the flashback takes place in Clouds mind. How Tifa got inside of there I'll never know but she did. Hmm, that reminds me of Cyan's dream actualy.

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 16th February 2005 09:32

--------------------

Role reversal at its finest.

Wow, it looks like I wasn't the only one who was confused about this. Thanks for the great answers guys. Perhaps some of us need to go play this game again eh?

--------------------

FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

With unmarked spoilers, I guess I could post this question: After the lifestream scene with Cloud 'n' Tifa, could you go to the Shinra Mansion's library in Nibelheim and there'll be a flashback scene with Cloud and Zack after the Nibelheim reactor incident? I was goin' to check that out on my next playthrough.

--------------------

"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

Yes, you can, if not then than later in the game. It does A LOT to clear up any plot issues you might have, and also allows you to sympathize somewhat with the heroic character Zack.

--------------------

this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Thanks laszlow. That'll help.

--------------------

"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

In game possibilites for Cloud I've seen:

He's the kid that grew up in Niebelheim. He joined SOLDIER. He did well, got to 1st class (or whatever it was called) which allowed him to have a Mako shower (resulting in the glowing eyes), but he got too much.

He's the kid that grew up in Niebelheim. He joined SOLDIER. He did poorly. He was the fully uniformed SOLDIER with Sephiroth and Zack. He deserted when he saw Tifa declare her hatred for SOLDIERs. When he related the story of what happened in Kalm, he put himself in Zack's place. His eyes glow for no reason.

He's the kid that grew up in Niebelheim. He joined SOLDIER. He did poorly. He was the fully uniformed SOLDIER with Sephiroth and Zack. After he, Zack, and Tifa got skewered by Sephiroth, Hojo injected him with Jenova cells in the basement. Getting an injection with Jenova cells for absolutely no reason causes eyes to glow, just like a Mako shower.

He's a failed clone of Sephiroth. They made this failure a SOLDIER 1st class (see above) and gave him the Mako shower which gave him the glowing eyes. Zack was the kid from Niebelheim. Hojo experimented on them in the basment, and when Cloud escaped, he took on Zack's memories for himself.

He's a failed clone of Sephiroth. They made this failure a SOLDIER 1st class (see above) and gave him the Mako shower which gave him the glowing eyes. There was a kid named Cloud that grew up in Niebelheim who went off to become a SOLDIER, but disappeared for no reason while doing it. Tifa confused the clone for the real Cloud, so he took on the real Cloud's memories for himself.

Edit

Forgot one: the game Cloud is Zack. He either grew up in Niebelheim or took on the persona of the Cloud that grew up in Niebelheim then disappeared

For everything to have happened in the present (the time during which the player has control), it looked to me like all of them had to be true.

This post has been edited by Dark Paladin on 17th February 2005 03:54

--------------------

"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 16th February 2005 22:43)

...He's the kid that grew up in Niebelheim. He joined SOLDIER. He did poorly. He was the fully uniformed SOLDIER with Sephiroth and Zack. After he, Zack, and Tifa got skewered by Sephiroth, Hojo injected him with Jenova cells in the basement. Getting an injection with Jenova cells for absolutely no reason causes eyes to glow, just like a Mako shower....

I *almost* completely agree with that one, the third from your list. Here's how I see it:

"He's the kid that grew up in Niebelheim. He joined SOLDIER. He did poorly. He was the fully uniformed SOLDIER with Sephiroth and Zack. After he, Zack, and Tifa got skewered by Sephiroth, Hojo injected him with Jenova cells in the basement" and left Zack and Cloud to die in Mako holding cells like the mutants in the Mt. Nibel Mako reactor. After Zack managed to free them, Cloud was suffering from both severe Mako poisoning and aftereffects of the Jenova injections (which later lead him to act like one of the clones, inexplicably drawn to Sephiroth). Still suffering various side effects, Cloud is powerless to stop Scarlet and a squadron of Midgar soldiers from killing Zack. Cloud then takes Zack's sword and confusedly fuses (hehe... 'fusedly fuse...) his own identity (Cloud from Nibelheim) with that of Zack (the popular and successful SOLDIER that Cloud wanted to be but couldn't) partially out of amnesia and partially because he subconciously wants to impress his childhood friend Tifa.

This is my theory. The FF VII storyline has enough inconsistencies and holes that there is no way to positively prove one single version is the right one. Despite the thoughts of many on this site, apparently. I have always thought FF VII is second only to Tactics in terms of FF storylines, but that's just me.

This post has been edited by laszlow on 17th February 2005 04:31

--------------------

this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

That's about right. DP, the story contradicts every single one of your "possibilities" except the one laszlow started with.

Why do his eyes glow "for no reason"? We're told that SOLDIER members are injected with Jenova cells. Shinra SAYS they're infused with Mako; who knows whether Mako has anything to do with it? IMO, Jenova is the reason for glowing eyes; all the Mako business is a complete red herring. Shinra may have just said "It's Mako" publically to account for the cases of people going crazy after an infusion of Jenova, since Cloud looks to be in a similarly poor state after his Jenova infusion to his condition after a dip in the Lifestream.

I haven't played this game in a very, very long time, so forgive me if I screw up on this one.

I think the reason your eyes glow is because of Mako, not Jenova. In the beginning of the game when you first party with Aeris, that one town (I don't remember the Sector number) had a guy who was "sick." Well, he was a Sephiroth clone, yes? (the number tatooed on his arm) There was no mention of glowing eyes or anything, which everyone knew was a sign of being in SOLDIER. He had Jenova cells, so Jenova cells can't be the cause.

I don't recal anything about SOLDIER members being injected with Jenova cells. The only thing I remember is the conversation where Aeris asks Cloud why his eyes glow. He responds by saying because of a Mako injection/shower/whatever, and that all SOLDIER members recieve it. This is just part of his confused past. He assumes his eyes are glowing because of Mako because he thinks he is in SOLDIER, when it is actually because of the Jenova cells.

Since no other characters in the game are noted as having glowing eyes, its quit possible that the reason for the glowing eyes is Jenova cells and NOT Mako. Cloud just knows that all SOLDIER members are injected with Mako and his mind creates this excuse to account for his eyes.

Plus I'm pretty sure somewhere in the story it mentions that Jenova cells are able to alter not only the minds of those infected but those around the infected as well. Not 100% on that one though.

And Cloud does get a VERY big exposure to Mako later in the game. Plus I wouldn't be suprised if he was exposed to Mako during Hojo's experiments with him.

And the one lazlow aggreed with is the correct version I believe.

--------------------

-- You're Gonna Carry That Weight --

Someone does definitely say that SOLDIER members are actually exposed to Jenova rather than (or as well as) Mako. I don't remember where, but I definitely remember it. Also note the ex-SOLDIER shopkeeper in Upper Junon who's wearing a black cape late in the game, but isn't weak enough to be following to Northern Cave.

This post has been edited by Tiddles on 17th February 2005 19:19

Quote (Tiddles @ 17th February 2005 14:19)

Also note the ex-SOLDIER shopkeeper in Upper Junon who's wearing a black cape late in the game, but isn't weak enough to be following to Northern Cave.

If he is ex-SOLDIER and doesn't go to the Reunion, wouldn't that indicate that he DOES NOT have Jenova cells in him?

I would like to pose a question.

Does Aeris make any mention of Zack having glowing eyes?

Because she knew him after he was SOLDIER but before he and Cloud were injected with Jenova cells by Hojo. If she knew Zack then she would be familiar with the glowing eyes thing. Therefore she would not be wondering why Cloud's eyes glow.

This post has been edited by Rujuken on 18th February 2005 07:47

--------------------

-- You're Gonna Carry That Weight --

Quote (Rujuken @ 18th February 2005 02:47)

Does Aeris make any mention of Zack having glowing eyes?

Hmmm... That's interesting. I'm honestly not sure about that one. The only mention of Zack we ever hear prior to Aeris' death is one of two scenes in Gongaga, in which there is no mention of Zack's eyes. I was always under the impression that Mako exposure makes your eyes glow (it seems to be common knowledge among denizens of the FF VII world) and that Jenova cells draw you to Sephiroth, but I can't recall any concrete examples to prove that point....

This post has been edited by laszlow on 18th February 2005 18:16

--------------------

this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Well, we know from various pieces of dialogue that glowing eyes are a sign of being in SOLDIER, and we know that Zack was in SOLDIER, so...

It's the fact that the ex-SOLDIER is wearing a black cape in the first place that makes it absolutely, 100% clear that it's Jenova Reunion related. He is graphically a generic black caped clone model from this point, and he says he just felt an urge to dress that way all of a sudden. I'm not sure what other explanation there could be.

From a script I downloaded years ago:

Code

Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
        "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
        "It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
        "But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."

From the speech when Cloud is back on the Highwind after the Lifestream revelations.

This post has been edited by Tiddles on 18th February 2005 19:13

I was going to post about this last night but it was a far too long winded post. However to get to the point, yes, I distinctly remember Aeris mentioning that Zack had glowing eyes. This was when she was talking about how Cloud reminded her of him. It was where that broken down reactor was (can't remember the name) was and there was quite allot of talk about the events that happened there. Zack's glowing eyes were mentioned.

To me, it doesn't seem so strange that Mako would have some strange side effects. After all it's pure life scorce and it's also the stuff that Materia's made out of. Also, Sephiroth makes a point of absorbing it whenever possible to become the most powerful being in the world. (That is why Sehpiroth summoned Meteor in the first place or so he claims.) I'd think that such a magical substance could improve strength and agility just as you are told in the game (Possibly why Cloud can wield the Buster Sword as he currently does.). If Mako were to do all of that, then I could see why Shira would take advantage of it for their elite class of warriors. Also, since it's such a powerful substance, I think that glowing eyes wouldn't seem that strange if you were to be exposed to it.

Edit

Never mind that last part, Tiddles found it and showed us that SOLDIER members do have Jenova Cells injected in them. However, I'd like to make a point that it's unclear as to if Cloud was even truly in SOLDIER in the first place. There are just so many in game conflictions. . .

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 18th February 2005 19:27

--------------------

Role reversal at its finest.

Cloud was never in SOLDIER. During the Lifestream sequences when he's sorting out his own thoughts from his 'acquired' ones, he admits to Tifa:

Quote

I never made it as a member of SOLDIER. I even left my hometown telling everyone I was going to join...but I was so embarassed...I didn't want to see anybody.

Regarding his 'acquired' thoughts:

Quote

I never was in SOLDIER. I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago, about being in SOLDIER. I left my village looking for glory, but never made it into SOLDIER...I was so ashamed of being weak; then I heard this story from my friend Zack...And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen in my life...And I continued to play the charade as if it were true.

It may take a couple play-throughs to differentiate from which of the Clouds is actually talking or acting. Lord knows the backstory isn't that easy to understand. Being called an Ex-SOLDIER doesn't help the case either.




--------------------

It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

He left to join- Didn't make it and settled on being a generic.

When he went home he was ashamed so he hid.

Later after the reactor they were experimenting on him in the basement and shot him full of Jenova.

After regaining his memory he took up Zacks identity who he knew was dead because that was what he wanted to remember himself as.

Sephiroth is a liar.

Its that simple.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 19th February 2005 02:36

--------------------

If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

It seems weird that since FFVI, all the main characters have a strange secret. First, Terra is daughter of an Esper. Cloud is a genetic experiment gone wrong. Squall's father is Laguna(possibly). Zidane is from Terra and is a genome and Tidus doesn't really even exist, he's a dream.

--------------------

Yunalesca: "Hope is...comforting. It allows us to accept fate, however tragic it might be. "

Yunalesca: "Poor creature. You would throw away hope. Well... I will free you before you can drown in your sorrow. It is better for you to die in hope than to live in despair. Let me be your liberator. "

Explanation Of Just Who Cloud Really Was:

He was a kid who grew up in Nibelheim and left around the time he was 14 or 15, in the hopes of joining SOLDIER and becoming strong like the legendary Sephiroth. The reason he wanted to do this was two fold: 1) He wanted to impress Tifa, and 2) He wanted to be able to protect Tifa if she ever needed rescuing, as he had been unable to once before.

He had been an outcast among the children of Nibelheim, whereas Tifa was very popular, and barely noticed that he existed. Then her mother died one day, and she ran out of her house in grief and began to climb Mt. Nibel, and Cloud followed. However, on the rope bridge leading into the mountain, Tifa missed her step, losing her balance, and though Cloud tried to save her, he could not, and both fell into the gorge. Cloud was barely hurt, while Tifa was in a coma for a week, others putting the blame for the entire matter on Cloud.

Cloud was determined that he wasn't going to be so useless again, and so he wanted to join SOLDIER, become stronger, and prove his worth and hopefully gain Tifa's attention. The Spring before leaving Nibelheim, he had called Tifa out to the town well and told her of his decision, and after doing so, she asked him to make a promise to her that if she were ever in trouble that he would come rescue her, which happened to be one of his reasons for wanting to join SOLDIER to begin with, and so he promised.

He leaves Nibelheim the next Summer and goes to Midgar in the hopes of joining SOLDIER. Of course, he doesn't make the cut and is deeply ashamed, which is why he insists upon hiding his identity from Tifa when he returns to Nibelheim as part of Zack and Sephiroth's entourage.

After the events that take place during their mission there (Sephiroth's destruction of Nibelheim, murder of its People, and his assault upon Tifa, Zack, and Cloud, culminating in Cloud throwing him into the Mako beneath the Mt. Nibel Reactor), Cloud and Zack are captured by Hojo, along with the remaining survivors of Nibelheim, and over the course of the next five years are captives in his laboratory in the Shinra Mansion, where he performs Mako infusion upon Cloud and the other survivors, as well as injects them with JENOVA Cells, in an attempt to produce similar effects in them that had been achieved in Sephiroth. Hojo's Sephiroth "Clone" project was unsuccessful in regard to Zack as his body failed to have the desired effect to the JENOVA Cells, whereas Cloud's had said reaction, as was also the case with the black-cloaked folks seen throughout the game, them having actually been the other survivors of the Nibelheim massacre:

(From the Escapee Reports in the back of the Shinra Mansion's Library)

Quote

Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

Those in whom the Mako had been infused, but did not have a resistance to the effects of Mako Poisoning as Zack and other members of SOLDIER did, suffered from extreme Mako Poisoning, likely due to an overload of knowledge in their minds. This is because Mako is derived from the Lifestream, which itself contains the knowledge of those who have lived before. The result of this is that those with a low sense of self-awareness/self-acceptance -- usually having weak wills as a result -- lose their identities and very sense of self. Having been unaccepting of who they were before, as so few People are, having many other thoughts suddenly flooding their minds no doubt made it almost impossible for them to determine their own place among them. They became little more than vegetables in mind.

After five years of imprisonment, Zack manages to break himself and Cloud out of the Shinra Mansion, and they make their way back to Midgar, with Cloud in a semi-catatonic state the entire way, him suffering from the effects of extreme Mako Poisoning. When they finally return to the outskirts of Midgar, Zack is gunned-down and killed by Shinra soldiers and Cloud is left to die. Cloud, however, survives, and takes Zack's sword, stumbling his way into Midgar, and then being found by Tifa at the train station.

Due to Cloud's shame at not having become a SOLDIER, he attempted to bury that fact deep in his mind, and, further, had lost his own sense of self-identity due to the experiments that had been conducted on him. Being then forced to present himself to Tifa, however, some measure of his memories would surface, particularly those in regard to who he had wanted to be for Tifa: Someone exactly like Zack, whom he had five years in which to learn the personality and character traits of. Due to the fragile state of his mind at this time, he had little concept of his own identity remaining to him, beyond that one which he had aspired to be like and had been able to witness in another for the last five years: Zack.

This is likely what kept him from remaining with a broken mind as the black-cloaked folks did. He had Zack's identity to focus on during his weakened state, Zack being one whom he admired and aspired to be like himself. Perhaps, seeing Tifa would haved pushed that desire to the forefront of his mind altogether. In effect, Zack was everything he had wanted to be able to become for Tifa. With no longer an identity of who he was, and only the concept of being someone exactly like Zack -- someone he had gotten to know, and could imitate exactly without even knowing he was doing so -- his mind responded in the only way it could in order for him to face Tifa and to live with himself at that time: To believe that he was everything that Zack was.

This was made all the easier by the fact that he was now wearing a SOLDIER's uniform, was in possession of Zack's sword, and possessed great strength and agility due to Hojo's experimentation. Cloud had an identity to focus on with which to pull himself out of his lost state amidst all the memories floating around in his head that were not his own, whereas the black-cloaked folks did not.

Hojo and Cloud both later believe Cloud to have been a failed experiment due to Cloud having never been issued a number as the black-cloaked folks were. Cloud tells Hojo at the Reunion that he had been a failure, with his lack of a number being his reason for believing this. What Cloud did not yet remember at this time, however, was Zack's role in his past, including the fact that Zack had broken himself and Cloud out of the Shinra Mansion shortly before the main events of the game began, and before Cloud could be given a number. Cloud had, in actuality, been a success. In fact, Hojo regarded him as the only success:

(On the Sister Ray, near the end of Disc 2.)

Quote

Cloud
        "Hojo! Stop right there!!"

(Hojo does not turn to face them. He merely continues his work.)

Hojo
        "Oh... the failure."

Cloud
        "At least remember my name! It's Cloud!"

(Hojo stops working but still does not turn)

Hojo
        "Every time I see you, I..."
        "It pains me that I had so little scientific sense..."

(He resumes.)

Hojo
        "I evaluated you as a failed project."
        "But, you are the only one that succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone."
        "Heh, heh, heh......... I'm even beginning to hate myself."

As can be seen from all this, the often believed concept of Cloud being a Sephiroth Clone is inaccurate in the sense that he was a genetic duplicate of the legendary SOLDIER. Rather, this term of him being a Sephiroth "Clone" is intended in the sense that Cloud would be a duplicate of Sephiroth in terms of experimentation, having been infused with Mako and being injected with JENOVA's Cells.

They are simply people that were the survivors of Sephiroth's massacre in Nibelheim, and which Hojo captured upon his arrival there, shortly after Sephiroth's defeat at the hands of Cloud. We know this based on Zangan, Tifa's Martial Arts instructor, letter to her:

Quote

"Tifa, what's happened to our town? Was it all an illusion, or
just a dream? No, it was neither. I remember trying to get people out of
the flames, but not having the strength... Burning with anger, I went to
the reactor to kill Sephiroth."
"But he was nowhere to be found. Instead, I found you, collapsed
inside. I felt saving you was far more important than going after
Sephiroth. There were several others that were still alive inside, but I
was only able to save you."
"As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just
arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the
troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know
what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let
them have my dearest student."

With this being the case, it would be more accurate to say that the experiments performed on Sephiroth were "cloned," rather than Sephiroth himself, in an attempt to recreate the results that had been achieved in Sephiroth.

Also, we know that Cloud -- one of the survivors of the Nibelheim massacre, and, therefore, also one of Hojo's experiments and one of the "Sephiroth Clones" -- had a real childhood and truly grew up in Nibelheim based on the memories that Tifa helps him piece together in the Lifestream.

Further, keep in mind that this game was originally in Japanese, and that quite often connotations and meanings do not translate literally into English. As a result, the closest word that the English translators felt fit the Japanese meaning of the description of those who underwent similar experimentation to Sephiroth was "clone," though in this context, the word "copy" would be just as accurate.

Quote (RoyalKnight)

I think the reason your eyes glow is because of Mako, not Jenova. In the beginning of the game when you first party with Aeris, that one town (I don't remember the Sector number) had a guy who was "sick." Well, he was a Sephiroth clone, yes? (the number tatooed on his arm) There was no mention of glowing eyes or anything, which everyone knew was a sign of being in SOLDIER. He had Jenova cells, so Jenova cells can't be the cause.

That's one of the game's many plotholes. As you said, it isn't stated that the fellow had glowing eyes, yet we know that he is one of the Sephiroth Clones, all of whom were infused with Mako:

(On the Highwind during Disc 2.)

Quote

"Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
        "It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."

(From the Escapee Reports in the back of the Shin-Ra Mansion's Library.)

Quote

Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

Quote (Rujuken)

Since no other characters in the game are noted as having glowing eyes, its quit possible that the reason for the glowing eyes is Jenova cells and NOT Mako. Cloud just knows that all SOLDIER members are injected with Mako and his mind creates this excuse to account for his eyes.

The President of Shin-Ra himself states that members of SOLDIER have glowing eyes:

Quote

President Shinra
        "...Long time no see? Oh... you."
        "You're the one who quit SOLDIER and joined AVALANCHE. I knew
you were exposed to Mako, from the glow in your eyes..."
        "Tell me, traitor... what was your name?"

Further, there's this:

Quote (Rujuken)

Does Aeris make any mention of Zack having glowing eyes?

Because she knew him after he was SOLDIER but before he and Cloud were injected with Jenova cells by Hojo. If she knew Zack then she would be familiar with the glowing eyes thing. Therefore she would not be wondering why Cloud's eyes glow.

Yes, though somewhat indirectly:

Quote

Aerith
        "Hey.... Cloud. Were you ever in
SOLDIER?"

Cloud
        "....."
        "...I used to be. How did you guess?"

Aerith
        "...Your eyes. They have a strange glow..."

Cloud
        "That's the sign of those who have been infused with Mako..."
        "A mark of SOLDIER."
        "But, how did you know about that?"

Aerith
        "........Oh, nothing."

Also, as Aerith's words show, she took his glowing eyes as an indication of him being in SOLDIER, meaning she was familiar with the concept. By the way, she would have known him after he was injected with JENOVA's Cells due to those being injected into member's of SOLDIER.

Quote (Rujuken)

Plus I'm pretty sure somewhere in the story it mentions that Jenova cells are able to alter not only the minds of those infected but those around the infected as well. Not 100% on that one though.

It isn't.

Quote (Tiddles)

Someone does definitely say that SOLDIER members are actually exposed to Jenova rather than (or as well as) Mako.

As the area of the script you quoted stated, it's said that they're injected with JENOVA's Cells in addition to being infused with Mako:

Quote

Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"

Also, again, we have President Shin-Ra's statement, and we actually see both Cloud and Zack floating in tubes full of Mako:

Linkage.

Quote (Rujuken)

If he is ex-SOLDIER and doesn't go to the Reunion, wouldn't that indicate that he DOES NOT have Jenova cells in him?

Not when his behavior is akin to theirs and we've been told that members of SOLDIER are injected with JENOVA's Cells. To take it as an indication of something else would require ignoring the final word given on the matter.

Quote (laszlow)

Still suffering various side effects, Cloud is powerless to stop Scarlet and a squadron of Midgar soldiers from killing Zack.

You're getting your flashbacks confused. Shin-Ra soldiers with Scarlet shot at Dyne and Barret. It was just two Shin-Ra soldiers and a captain who brought down Zack.


(Most all Final Fantasy VII script quotes taken from this website: Linkage.)

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 22nd February 2005 23:33

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Quote (Squall of SeeD @ 22nd February 2005 02:49)

Quote (Tiddles)

Someone does definitely say that SOLDIER members are actually exposed to Jenova rather than (or as well as) Mako.

As the area of the script you quoted stated, it's said that they're injected with JENOVA's Cells in addition to being infused with Mako:

Quote

Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"

Also, again, we have President Shin-Ra's statement, and we actually see both Cloud and Zack floating in tubes full of Mako:

Linkage.
sc.html]Linkage[/URL].)

Well, I guess it depends how you take the "simply" part. You could take it as "this does happen, but also the Jenova bit" or you could take it as a "Shinra has this simple story of what happens, but in reality it's the Jenova bit". Which is a bit of a stretch, but you have to stretch the translation quite a bit in places to make it hold together.

(In particular, in that very section, Cloud talks about "making up" a story based on what his friend Zack told him. For the most part, that's clearly false: he saw what happened in Nibelheim, and he served with Zack for what must have been more than one mission, if he considers him a "friend", and friends they do seem to be. This could only possibly, maybe, conceivably refer to Zack talking about how he got into SOLDIER, but we never actually see Cloud recount anything other than what we know he saw with his own eyes: in fact, he realises the lie when he tries to remember how he got into SOLDIER at Northern Cave.)

As for the tubes, well, I never really made the connection that it was Mako. I thought it might've been some kind of Jenova Crush™.

But I don't disagree that Mako could be involved.

Quote (Tiddles)

Well, I guess it depends how you take the "simply" part.  You could take it as "this does happen, but also the Jenova bit" or you could take it as a "Shinra has this simple story of what happens, but in reality it's the Jenova bit".  Which is a bit of a stretch, but you have to stretch the translation quite a bit in places to make it hold together.

I agree, but in this particular instance, it would be destroying the credibility of the rest of what we're told throughout the entire game and which is never really refuted on any level. It's always stated or inferred that those infused with Mako will have Mako Eyes, and while some things that are stated (such as Sephiroth being JENOVA's son) are shown to later be false or for something to contradict it, that's never the case in regard to the matter of Mako Eyes.

As for the tubes and the material floating in those, it's exactly the same color as Mako gas, floats in the same manner, and we have Cloud showing up with glowing eyes attributed to being because of Mako infusion by every other aspect of the script. In other words, to stretch Cloud's words to mean more than "In addition to being infused with Mako, members of SOLDIER are injected with JENOVA's Cells," one would actually be destroying the credibility of the script (not that it needs a lot of help in that regard in a lot of places), and causing things to make less sense, when there's really nothing there to suggest Mako Eyes aren't a result of Mako infusion in the first place.

I understand People's desire to look deeply into things, and I do it myself more than is healthy, but at a certain point, one has to step back and say "Okay, this is all the writers gave us and they didn't offer anything to contradict it," and accept it as being so. Essentially, the writer of a story is that story's God. Anything they didn't create simply isn't there.

As things stand, the only source material available to us is Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis (and that's not available to most of us). Until something new in the way of source material comes forth to suggest otherwise, there's no other conclusion based on what is present in the souce material to draw concerning the cause of Mako Eyes other than Mako infusion.

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

All I'm saying is that I'm not convinced there's enough information to say so definitely. It's just an opinion, and the gaps in the story do leave plenty of room for them.

I think you'll find it's the Sephiroth Clones that are injected with Jenova cells, or even grown from them from birth or something, while the SOLDIER members are just inhanced with Mako energy.

It may actually be that some were grown and other injected etc, thus each having a number. Hojo was seeing which one(s) would work.

Cloud,after leaving to become a SOLDIER never passed the tests because he was too weak so ended up an Shinra peon. After the actions at Nibel he was injected with Jenova cells but because he was so pathetically weak became a jibbering vegitable...or so they thought. Hojo considered him to be a failier so never even issued him with a number.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 01:57

--------------------

The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel @ 22nd February 2005 20:52)

I think you'll find it's the Sephiroth Clones that are injected with Jenova cells, or even grown from them from birth or something, while the SOLDIER members are just inhanced with Mako energy.

No one in the game is just "grown." It didn't' happen at all. There's no indication of it being so, and we're shown that the Sephiroth Clones were the residents of the original Nibelheim:

(From Zangan's letter to Tifa.)

Quote

"As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just
arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the
troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know
what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let
them have my dearest student."

As for the members of SOLDIER, we're told that they're injected with JENOVA's Cells and the Junon Accessory Shop owner -- a former member of SOLDIER -- dons a black cloak, just as the Sephiroth Clones did:

Quote

Cloud
        "I'm physically built like someone on SOLDIER."
        "Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult."
        "It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of
SOLDIER."

(He shrugs)

Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
        "For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."

Quote

Junon Accessory Shop Owner:

"I used to be in SOLDIER. Recently, I've felt like dressing up like this... I don't know, it's out of season, but..."

In all honesty, I'm curious as to whether you actually read the other Posts in this Thread before posting, as these things have been gone over. O.o That the Sephiroth Clones were the residents of Nibelheim, that no one was grown in a test tube, and that members of SOLDIER were injected with JENOVA's Cells are basic facts of the game's storyline that are beyond question.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

Cloud,after leaving to become a SOLDIER never passed the tests because he was too weak so ended up an Shinra peon. After the actions at Nibel he was injected with Jenova cells but because he was so pathetically weak became a jibbering vegitable...or so they thought. Hojo considered him to be a failier so never even issued him with a number.

Hojo didn't regard Cloud as a failure. Cloud didn't receive a Number because Zack broke him out of the Shinra Mansion before Hojo could give him one. It was Cloud who believed him not having a Number meant he was a failure, and he told Hojo that this was so, and Hojo believed Cloud. This is something else that has already been gone over.

If I may ask, please do read all Posts in a Thread before posting in it, as it's quite disrespectful and insulting to others in the Thread to simply skim over or altogether ignore what has already been said, especially when it renders your own Post inaccurate before it's presented. As a writer, I find it to be among the greatest insults imaginable to ignore another's words.

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 23rd February 2005 03:41

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Quote

If I may ask, please do read all Posts in a Thread before posting in it, as it's quite disrespectful and insulting to others in the Thread to simply skim over or altogether ignore what has already been said, especially when it renders your own Post inaccurate before it's presented. As a writer, I find it to be among the greatest insults imaginable to ignore another's words.

I did, but reading what others think doesn't mean I'll just 'change' what I think. Hojo sent out soldiers to kill both Zack and Cloud. He did that because they failed. I chose to make my post in a manner that exclueded arguing what others thought because, as I don't expect you to just 'agree' with me, I expect the same curtesy kthnx.

I'll also say again (from another thread) there are 13 Seph experiments (Not counting the unmarked) this includes Nanaki. While yes, many of the people of Nibel were indeed used in this experiment that doesn't account for ALL the clones made/used. Certain members of SOLDIER included, that guy in the shop for instance who I'll assume is numbered. He just didn't work out.

I will not take everything the game says into account because as you well know, the translation isn't that fantastic.

--------------------

The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Quote

If I may ask, please do read all Posts in a Thread before posting in it, as it's quite disrespectful and insulting to others in the Thread to simply skim over or altogether ignore what has already been said, especially when it renders your own Post inaccurate before it's presented. As a writer, I find it to be among the greatest insults imaginable to ignore another's words.

As another writer and, more importantly, as a personm I also think it is quite disre"pectful to completely dismiss another person's post simply because you disagree with the content. I'd like to come to Mu'sedefense. He made some interesting posts in the Sephiroth topic, which implies he took the time to read our long, wordy, and, believe it or not, someti)es pomp.us and pretentious post2.

You are obviously literate and intelligent. I found your postb in the Sephiroth thread well researched and convincing. Havin& said that, with all due respece, you did not write the script to Final Fantasy VII, and much of what you say is theory no matter how well it is presen`ed.
(br>I won't go any further because I'm not a moderator at this forum. I don't believe you are either. As such, I donr#39;t think it's within ourarights to tell people one way or the other what they should and should not be doing here.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 23rd February 2005 13:02