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Last night a friend told me this, "The Sephiroth you see throughout all of disc 1 and up until the North Cave is really the group of clones made by Hojo. The real Sephiroth went right into the lifestream after

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Cloud threw his behind into the Mt. Nibel reactor.

You don't see the real Sephiroth until Cloud

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gives him the Black Materia."

This makes sense in combination with all of the Seph-looking gus in Advent Children. Furthermore, it makes more sense to me than the "Sephiroth is really dead and what you fight is a ghost or a chunk of Jenova or something" theory. As much as my friend's belief makes sense though, how do we know Sephiroth didn't just climb back out of the

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reactor?

Is there something in the game's dialogue I overlooked? What do you guys think?

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Get me off this Disciplinary Committee so I can play any FF except for FF8!!!

The game does have a fairly loopy dialouge from shoddy translation, but Cloud tossing Sephy into the reactor is a FLASHBACK. It occurs before Cloud ever goes to Midgar. And, remember, Sephy must have gone batty before that in order to

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kill everyone and burn the town of Nibelheim before going back to the reactor and getting thrown in. What I think happened is Sephiroth was messed up all along (after the event with Vincent in the more hidden flashback) and he just didn't "wake up" until he realized he was part of Jenova when Cloud/Zack and he visited the Nibelheim reactor and Sephy saw more of Hojo's creations and he realized his past. I'll bet that sephy falling into the lifestream just strengthened him even more and that's how he became a demigod. He didn't reveal his true power, however, until the black materia event in Ice Gate.

This post has been edited by Gerad on 20th March 2004 02:43

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"Hit hard, hit first, hit often."

--Adm. William "Bull" Halsey, USN

The popular theories I've seen are what you said, that disc 1 Sephiroth's a clone, or that he's a "shadow" of Sephiroth's will. I would certainly go with the former.

Remember early in the game, you're chasing

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a man in a black cape with a number one tattoo? The implication is that he's one of Hojo's experiments. You could say that the number one could have been given to the original Sephiroth, but it fits the "clone" theory too.

Also early in the game, on the ship,

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"Sephiroth" doesn't seem to remember who you are, or have much idea what's going on -- much like the black-caped people in Nibelheim.

At Northern Cave,

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Sephiroth stands ready to fight you, but you fight a Jenova part. After the fight, Sephiroth is gone, though he shows up a couple more times at the crater. It's at this point that the characters themselves ask if they've been following the real Sephiroth or not.

The mako-encased Sephiroth at Northern Cave is enough evidence for me that he did indeed not leave the lifestream after Cloud threw him in, and ended up there. It's hard to imagine why he'd go and seal himself in a big old lump to wait for the black materia to be handed to him.

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The "clones" you see in the game don't look like Sephiroth, but he says himself in the Northern Cave vision of Nibelheim: "The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova." We see this as "Tifa" fools whatever party member you left behind into bringing Cloud the black materia. I don't see why one of the more successful clones couldn't "morph" into Sephiroth, personally, if it came to that. But that's all quite debatable.

hmm this is very provoking, now i want to play through ff7 again to see what i missed when i first played it (when i was 11) (15 now lol long time ago)

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18th June-Red hot chilli peppers-Manchester city stadium

If I remember right...the black hooded men with the numbers on them were Sephiroth screw ups...created before him when they were trying to make him in the first place

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the only problem with that is that when you get Vincent you learn that the girl you find under the water fall where you get his Ultimate weapon is Sephiroth's biological mother...not Jenova...he just had Jenova cells injected into him after he joined SOLDIER to make him the amazingly powerful character he is.

of course some of that could have had something to do with all the bad mistranslations in the game due to only the Japanese translating it and also the release demand that forced the game out before it was finished...so there is a possiblilty that your question will never actually be answered...but personally I think it is just Sephiroth's will creating an image of his body(if you notice,he just up and disappears all the freakin' time after walking by you or talking to you).And another way of adding a little proof to this theory is that

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Sephiroth practically puts Cloud in a trance after they go into the area where Sephiroth is encased in the capsule of lifestream forcing Cloud to just hand Sephiroth the black Materia...so it is safe to say that Sephiroth just put the image of himself in the characters mind and was never really there.

I don't think Hojo managed to make THAT many Seph clones if any

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Remember the creatures in the mt. nibel reactor? yeah that was an attempt of something like seph too

So really if Hojo ever really did create Sephiroth...he only managed to do it once out of all the times he tried...but I'm not so sure Sephiroth was created.

Also remember

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on disc 2 when you are crossing through the mountains there are a bunch of those hooded characters jumping to their death off of cliffs...possibly because of pain of being reject experimants or incomplete.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 1st April 2004 07:02

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (Sephiroth)

If I remember right...the black hooded men with the numbers on them were Sephiroth screw ups...created before him when they were trying to make him in the first place

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the only problem with that is that when you get Vincent you learn that the girl you find under the water fall where you get his Ultimate weapon is Sephiroth's biological mother...not Jenova...he just had Jenova cells injected into him after he joined SOLDIER to make him the amazingly powerful character he is.

Except for this:

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The Jenova cells were injected while he was inside his mother Lucrecia. That was the point of the experiment, and how she remained a ghost, unable to die: because of the Jenova she absorbed herself.

Also, regarding the clones:

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They were attempts to recreate Sephiroth after the Nibelheim incident. That's why there are loads of them hanging around Nibelheim: they're the dying townspeople from after the fire, pumped full of Jenova. Cloud and Zack suffered a similar fate, which is why Hojo refers to Cloud as a clone.

Quote (Sephiroth)

of course some of that could have had something to do with all the bad mistranslations in the game due to only the Japanese translating it and also the release demand that forced the game out before it was finished...so there is a possiblilty that your question will never actually be answered...but personally I think it is just Sephiroth's will creating an image of his body(if you notice,he just up and disappears all the freakin' time after walking by you or talking to you).And another way of adding a little proof to this theory is that

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Sephiroth practically puts Cloud in a trance after they go into the area where Sephiroth is encased in the capsule of lifestream forcing Cloud to just hand Sephiroth the black Materia...so it is safe to say that Sephiroth just put the image of himself in the characters mind and was never really there.

I can buy that. I still prefer the clone theory though.

Quote (Sephiroth)

I don't think Hojo managed to make THAT many Seph clones if any

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Remember the creatures in the mt. nibel reactor? yeah that was an attempt of something like seph too

So really if Hojo ever really did create Sephiroth...he only managed to do it once out of all the times he tried...but I'm not so sure Sephiroth was created.

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"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova." My impression was that Sephiroth/Jenova could control the appearance of some of the "clones" (there are plenty of the little black-caped guys, remember: it's the word "clone" which is not entirely inaccurate), probably those with the highest levels of Jenova infection and the least resistance. That's my theory, anyway; it's not something the game clarifies.

Quote (Sephiroth)

Also remember

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on disc 2 when you are crossing through the mountains there are a bunch of those hooded characters jumping to their death off of cliffs...possibly because of pain of being reject experimants or incomplete.

They were following Sephiroth to the Jenova Reunion. But they visibly lack any kind of agility, and I assume they mostly just slipped on the rocks.

Quote (Tiddles @ 1st April 2004 04:25)

They were following Sephiroth to the Jenova Reunion.  But they visibly lack any kind of agility, and I assume they mostly just slipped on the rocks.

I seem to remember them LEAPING,as in,standing on the edge,pausing and then jumping...of course maybe it just looked like that because the graphics weren't all that great compared to things now days.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 1st April 2004 19:28

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Mmm, maybe they did. I can't pretend I remember perfectly. But there was lifestream down there I suppose, so that's a possibility, or they were trying to reach that core thing

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where we find Jenova Synthesis and Sephiroth at the end.

WOw...now this has me wondering they were jumping or falling off of the rocksrather than the actual subject...I even stsrted a new game last night so that I can play through and find out...I'll get back to it in a few days and post to you whether or not I find anything new, that I just didn't notice before.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

First of all, you guys rule. The FFVII section looks great and I'm sure you've made many CoN posters happy with your V-day present.

Sorry to bump this old thread, but I was about to create a similar topic when I found this one.


MAJOR SPOILERS:

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OK, so awhile back on a hike with one of my friends we discussed this situation. Here's my theory:

First of all, if you get a certain flashback you know Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells while he was in Lucrecia's womb. Thus, he becomes the first and ultimately best member of SOLDIER.

Afterwards, all other members of SOLDIER also get injected with Jenova cells. However, not while they are in the womb like Sephiroth. Their bodies are already fully developed. This gives Sephiroth a link with Jenova that the rest of them do not have. He is Jenova's "son" in that sense.

Flash forward to Nibelheim. Sephiroth finds out the truth about himself and goes ape. He is then thrown into the lifestream by Cloud. Eventually he ends up in the arctic north where he is encassed in ice. His body is immobile, but his mind is fully operational. Though he ends up in stasis, he somehow obtains the ability to control anyone else that has been injected with Jenova cells.

Remember the guy in Midgar that you meet early on with Aeris? He has a number tatooed on him. My guess is he was an ex-member of SOLDIER. I believe you meet someone similar in another town (Junon?), but it's been awhile since I played the game. Eventually, both don black capes, and both disapear.

Those are Sephiroth's "clones." He controls the minds of ex-members of SOLDIER and eventually they become replicas of him. It's likely the Sephiroth you meet on the ship, the Sephiroth that kills you-know-who, and the black cloaked Sephiroth in the Promised Land are all clones. This is further evidenced in that they all turn into Jenova creatures that you must fight.

The real Sephiroth is the naked Sephiroth trapped in the ice in the Promised Land. He doesn't awaken until Cloud hands him the black materia. You don't meet him again until the end of the game.

Now, having setteld all that, we had one final question. If Cloud was never a member of SOLDIER, as we learn in his dream with Tifa, then how is it that Sephiroth controls him? I believe the answer lies in the flashback you get in the basement of the Shinra Mansion in Nibelheim.

Cloud and Zack were both held hostage in giant test tubes. It's not unereasoable to assume that Cloud was experimented upon and, possibly, injected with Jenova cells during his stay there. Once Sephiroth becomes attuned to this, he takes a special interest in controlling Cloud. Where he's content to make all other members of SOLDIER into replicas of himself, he toys with Cloud as a means of revenge because Cloud is the one who got him into this situation in the first place.

That's my take on the situation.

Moderator Edit

In the future, for spoilers, use these tags (replace ( with [ ):
(SPOILER) at the start of the spoiler, and (/SPOILER) at the end. -Elena99

This post has been edited by Elena99 on 13th February 2005 23:42

I believe the Sephiroth you are chasing is actually

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the Jenova body that got loose from Shinra HQ.

After all,

Quote ("Sephiroth")

"The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova."

It would make sense, what with A:

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fighting Jenova whenever you seem to have a confrontation with Sephiroth

and B:

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the Jenova Reunion at the Northern Cave/Crater, where all the Jenova injected people went. Doesn't it make sense that the rest of Jenova should show up as well?

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My soul is bound to the Mistress of the Afterlife, and my fealty is to her always. So let's just hope she doesn't use it as one of her ten daily meals.

As I understand it:

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Sephiroth is the biological child of either Hojo and Lucretia, or Gast and Lucretia (from the flashback we see in Icicle Inn), but its been a while since my copy of FFVII broke, so I'm a little hazy on specifics. I think the majority of the Sephy's you see, for instance the one on the Cargo Ship and the one in ShinRa Manor who throws 'Destruct' Materia at you, are successul clones, and the black-robed ones in Nibelheim are the failed ones (because I don't think the black-robed ones have ALL the numbers).

But,

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The one you are following at the beginning I think is the first Sephiroth clone, tattooed with the mark of being Hojo's first success, which he was. This is why he doesn't remember Cloud on the Cargo Ship.

I don't think you see

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The real Sephiroth until the events with the Black Materia when he kills Tseng.

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For Belle - Everything I Do

GO GO GOBLIN PUNCH!

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/Blackdragon5360/coolsignature.jpg[/IMG]

Here are the conclusions I came up with (so I'll just spoiler tag it all):

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1) Jenova is the Sephiroth you see walking around from Disc 1 until midway through Disc 2. As stated above, Jenova has the power to metamorphose into objects of its choosing. At the Whirlwind Maze, the "Sephiroth" you see also says something like "this is the end of this body's usefulness".

Later on, you see Sephiroth's human body (he is human) encased in solid materia, not unlike a Han Solo of years past.

2) When you fight Jenova aboard the Cargo Ship, the Sephiroth you see doesn't remember you. Is this because he's a clone? No, if it was a clone, it would be a crippled mass of flesh like all the rest, since it was made like all the rest.

"Sephiroth" doesn't remember you, either. Is this because he's trying to be elusive? No, Sephiroth is still sitting tight in the materia in the Northern Crater. So, the logical conclusion is that the shadow you see is the escaped Jenova.

3) The shadow you see walking around must also be Jenova because:

• You never fight Sephiroth when you encounter "him", because it isn't him. Jenova always "appears" to stall you, when in fact you're fighting the real culprit.
• After Cloud threw Sephiroth into the *deep* reactor, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream at the bottom. Since he's human, and he simply can't climb out, he was caught in the flow of the Lifestream and eventually brought to the Northern Crater where there is an awful lot of energy being taken (so you know the Lifestream goes there).

4) Sephiroth is human. He was born from Lucretia and the Jenova cells didn't make him anything other than human. However, since he was born with Jenova cells already in him rather than getting injections like members of SOLDIER received, he was multiple times stronger.

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Re: Icicle Inn flashbacks: that's Gast and Ifalna. They're not Sephiroth's parents.

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They're Aeris's.

I'll buy the "It's Jenova" theory except for this:

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Who busts Jenova out of the Shinra building in the first place? I have trouble believing she'd just sit there twiddling her thumbs and then deciding to open the door when she felt like a bit of a Reunion. Hojo would certainly realise Jenova's power by this point and would surely keep the cage secure (unless he let it out himself, but I'm inclined to think even Hojo's not THAT crazy at that point in the game.)

Gah! *slaps forehead in shame* See, I told you it's been a while.

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For Belle - Everything I Do

GO GO GOBLIN PUNCH!

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/Blackdragon5360/coolsignature.jpg[/IMG]

At Northern Crater/Cave, Hojo says something about the wills of Sephiroth and Jenova combining. Maybe Jenova was lying dormant until Sephiroth could gather enough power to help release it.

This post has been edited by The Celestial on 15th February 2005 06:28

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My soul is bound to the Mistress of the Afterlife, and my fealty is to her always. So let's just hope she doesn't use it as one of her ten daily meals.

I feel like adding my 2 cents on this. I've played through the game about 8 times. But it has been a while.

I'll try to start at the beginning.

Sephiroth's birth

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First off Sephiroth was infected with Jenova cells while still developing inside Lucretia's womb. Hojo had discovered some of the abilities of Jenova's cells through experiments he did (those monsters in capsules inside the Nibleheim reactor). But these experiments were failures, so Hojo tried injecting cells into this still developing child. Lucretia went along with this because she too was a scientist. This met with great success. Sephiroth's body accepted the Jenova cells and was born something part human part Jenova (which is an alien life form). I believe he was also injected with Mako but I'm not sure about that.

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After this Hojo tried to make Sephiroth "clones". Hojo knew how Jenova cells worked so I believe he was trying to develop an easy way to give soldiers the power Sephy had but at the same time keep them submissive. He had discovered that Sephiroth was PART Jenova and not simply infected by it like his other experiments, which meant Sephiroth would have control over those infected. So Hojo was creating minions for his son to use.(To back up the idea that Hojo wanted to give Sephiroth more power, remember Hojo wanted to fire the Mako Cannon at the Northern Crater and was saying something about giving Sephy a huge dose of Mako.)

I find this part interesting.

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When Sephy, Zack, and Cloud went to Nibleheim, Sephiroth discovered who he was by reading all those books in the library. He thought he was born from Jenova when that was not the whole truth. He never discovered he had a human mother who was very much like he was. As a result he went on a rampage and was thrown into the Lifestream by Cloud. Makes you wonder what would have happened if he had known he had a real mother.

I'm going to deviate a bit by talking about Cloud and SOLDIER.

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After the Nibelhein incident, Zack and Cloud where experimented on by Hojo. I believe this is where Cloud got much of his power. Hojo obviously was trying to turn Cloud into another Sephiroth clone. But the experiment was cut short by Zack which I think kept Cloud from being mentally impaired and totally submissive to Sephiroth like the other clones. As a result Cloud had the strength granted by Jenova cells but was not completely under its control. (By the way SOLDIER members are injected with Mako energy NOT Jenova cells.)

About the clones.

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Sephiroth could control these clones, including Cloud to a lesser extent. Sephiroth was obviously injured with his encounter with Cloud in Nibelheim. I believe the time between then and his next citing where the clone kills the Midgard president, was time he needed to recover from his injuries. He recovered (I don't think fully) but was trapped in stasis. So he mentally controlled the clones to carry out his plans. He had the 1st clone recover the Jenova head from Hojo's lab, because he thought it was his mother and it would give him power.

Fighting Jenova while the clone gets away.

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I think these clones where both the Jenova things you fight and the Sephiroth clones walking around. These clones are infected with Jenova, and I believe Jenova is able to separate from itself and change its shape. So in order to stall the team, the clone kinda breaks off a piece of itself which morphs and fights the team. Not the best theory though.

Suicidal clones.

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When the clones are killing themselves it is because Sephiroth is willing them to. They are having their life energy return to the Planet so Sephiroth can absorb their energy and become stronger, since he no longer has a use for them.

Cloud and Sephiroth

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I think that Sephiroth was aware of Cloud's actions because of the Jenova cells in his body. But Sephiroth did not have full control over Cloud. Sephiroth initially went nuts because of the truth of his origins. I think that was only a trigger though. Sephiroth thened wanted to absorb all the Mako on the Planet, which I believe is a driving factor behind Jenova. It is kinda like a planet threatening, intelligent, virus. Because Sephy was part Jenova this became his goal. To absorb all the life energy of the planet.Which I believe is what Hojo meant when he said that the wills of Sephy and Jenova are combining. Then, like Jenova, he would move to another planet in order to absorb more energy.

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But Sephiroth needed to injure the Planet enough so he could basically put it ats death door and suck the life out of it. So while Cloud and team went to retrieve the Black materia, Sephiroth also sent a clone to get it. So Sephiroth actually had 2 people working to get the Black materia for him, though one was resistant. This is where Cloud succumbs to mind control and beats Aeris. Then later gives Sephiroth the Black materia.

How Cloud overcomes.

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Obviously Cloud is succeptable to Sephiroth's control, but why isn't he controlled later when he becomes an even bigger threat? I believe this due to all the exposure he has to the Lifestream. He had a VERY big exposure to the life energy of the Planet, which I think strengthened him, but left him in a mental prison. Then Tifa helped him to unravel their past. I believe this, in the end, severed any hold Sephiroth or Jenova had on him and brought him out of his prison.

Heeee. I love talking about this.



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-- You're Gonna Carry That Weight --

Quote (Tiddles @ 14th February 2005 15:35)

I'll buy the "It's Jenova" theory except for this:

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Who busts Jenova out of the Shinra building in the first place?  I have trouble believing she'd just sit there twiddling her thumbs and then deciding to open the door when she felt like a bit of a Reunion.  Hojo would certainly realise Jenova's power by this point and would surely keep the cage secure (unless he let it out himself, but I'm inclined to think even Hojo's not THAT crazy at that point in the game.)

Here's what I think about that:

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I think that Cloud was the one who released Jenova. He can be controlled too: remember when Sephiroth controls him to hand over the black materia at the temple of the ancients? The guard was probably going in to check on him when Cloud got controlled. The rest can be inferred: he killed the guard, then proceeded to kill everyone else and free Jenova. There's also a trail of blood leading from Cloud's cell to the Jenova cage. After freeing Jenova he could have been put back in his cell, where he awoke to find his door ajar and things strangely quiet...

This post has been edited by eternalsphere on 16th February 2005 02:11

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Music is a mysterious thing... Sometimes, it makes people remember things that they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember them or not...

- Shitan, Xenogears

eternalsphere, very interesting theory, but...

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...who ended up planting the Masamune in the back of the President? However, you got me thinking. Methinks now that Sephiroth Clone #1 killed all the guards and opened Cloud's prison door so that Cloud, a person with Jenova cells in his body, could go chase after Sephiroth Clone and subconsciously reunite with the real Sephiroth. Sephiroth knew who Cloud was (a measly foot soldier PWNED him while a SOLDIER 1st class couldn't even lay a scratch.). Plus, I'm betting Cloud really did make mention of Nibelheim being his hometown, so Sephiroth probably most likely had full knowledge of who had just reamed him.

This post has been edited by RoyalKnight on 17th February 2005 11:04

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As Jenova can take on any shape it wishes, I think Jenova skewered President Shin-ra. You'll also notice that President Shinra's corpse is laying face down on his desk and it's obvious that he did not (or wasn't able) to put up a struggle. Perhaps "Jenovaroth" pulled the now infamous falling-from-above trick on Shinra first-- lord knows it would be an easy feat to pull off. Anyway, the Masamune is said to be only properly used by Sephiroth, and I have two hypotheses for the sight you see on the upper floor:

1) Jenova was able to take the form of Sephiroth and impale President Shin-ra. This is the easiest guess to make, I'd say.

-or-

2) Jenova could wield the Masamune regardless of the talent needed. I think that the Masamune could be weilded by anybody, but only Sephiroth could use it properly since it seems taylor-made for him. When you think about it, it's just a long sword; there's nothing that would prevent someone else from holding it or thrusting with it.

Jenova would be able to, at least, stab the unususpecting Shinra with the Masamune, even if she could not use it properly in any battle instance.

This post has been edited by Shotgunnova on 18th February 2005 06:50

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

(I would like to take this time to point out that basically anything I ever post will contain a Spoiler, so just be prepared to highlight my Posts in their entirety.)

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The indication is that the Sephiroth forms seen up to the torso that remained of his real body were pieces of JENOVA. Recall that at the Northern Crater, the Sephiroth form that slaughters the Sephiroth Clones states that the moment was "The end of this body's usefulness..." then vanishes and reappears above the party, descends near them and then turns to face them, and remains on the environment map in front of them with its sword drawn and in a battle-ready position when the screen transitions to the battle map. However, once the transition is made to the battel map, the Sephiroth form is gone and JENOVA-DEATH is there instead.

Taking into account that at the City of the Ancients, the Sephiroth form rose into the air and vanished in a flash of light with something falling from where it had been and becoming JENOVA-LIFE, we have an indication of transormations taking place in both cases. Further, considering that on the Shin-Ra Cargo Ship, when JENOVA-BIRTH is defeated, a tentacle of the JENOVA body from the Shin-Ra Headquarters is laying on the floor when the screen reverts to the environment map, we have an indication that JENOVA-BIRTH reverted into this form:

Quote

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(The figure of Sephiroth rises, then crashes into Cloud and the others,
sending them to the floor. It soars skyward.)

(Boss battle with Jenova-BIRTH)

(A pulsating limb of Jenova, leftover from the battle, lies on the floor.)

Tifa
        "I've seen this somewhere... before."

(Cloud bends)

Cloud
        "...Jenova. The arm of Jenova."

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With all of this in mind, we have only reason to believe that JENOVA-BIRTH, JENOVA-LIFE, and JENOVA-DEATH were pieces of JENOVA's body seperated and taking on Sephiroth's form.

Quote (Sephiroth)

If I remember right...the black hooded men with the numbers on them were Sephiroth screw ups...created before him when they were trying to make him in the first place...

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Sephiroth wasn't created in a test tube, nor were the Sephiroth Clones. JENOVA's Cells were injected into Lucrecia's womb while she was pregnant with Sephiroth, and he was clearly infused with Mako at some point.

As for the Sephiroth Clones, they were the residents of Nibelheim that didn't die in Sephiroth's massacre there and were then captured by Hojo and experimented upon.

Quote (Sephiroth)

of course some of that could have had something to do with all the bad mistranslations in the game due to only the Japanese translating it and also the release demand that forced the game out before it was finished...so there is a possiblilty that your question will never actually be answered...

The Japanese release date for the game was delayed by a full month for them to add more things in, the North American release contained more than the Japanese release, and Square added some extra additions in the form of a bonus disc with vehicle schematics and such for Final Fantasy VII: International, rather than adding new additions to the plot. They had all the opportunity that was necessary to "complete" the game.

Quote (Sephiroth)

I don't think Hojo managed to make THAT many Seph clones if any...

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Remember the creatures in the mt. nibel reactor? yeah that was an attempt of something like seph too

So really if Hojo ever really did create Sephiroth...he only managed to do it once out of all the times he tried...but I'm not so sure Sephiroth was created.

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He wasn't. The game makes is extremely clear on this matter. He was born of Hojo and Lucrecia.

Quote (Tiddles)

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The Jenova cells were injected while he was inside his mother Lucrecia. That was the point of the experiment, and how she remained a ghost, unable to die: because of the Jenova she absorbed herself.

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The indication is that Lucrecia was still alive, not a ghost:

Quote

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Lucrecia
        "I wanted to disappear... I couldn't be with anyone... I wanted
to die..."
        "But the Jenova inside me wouldn't let me die..."

Quote

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Lucrecia
        "Vincent... Won't you please tell me?"

Vincent
        "......What?"

Lucrecia
        "If Sephiroth is still alive?"
        "I heard that he died five years ago. But I see him in my dreams
so often..."
        "And I know that physically, like myself, he can't die so easily."
        "Please, Vincent, tell me......"

Quote (Sephiroth)

Quote (Tiddles)

They were following Sephiroth to the Jenova Reunion.  But they visibly lack any kind of agility, and I assume they mostly just slipped on the rocks.

I seem to remember them LEAPING,as in,standing on the edge,pausing and then jumping...of course maybe it just looked like that because the graphics weren't all that great compared to things now days.

Quote (Tiddles)

Mmm, maybe they did. I can't pretend I remember perfectly. But there was lifestream down there I suppose, so that's a possibility, or they were trying to reach that core thing

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where we find Jenova Synthesis and Sephiroth at the end.

I can save Sephiroth the trouble of going back to that point just to find out what the Clones did. They do leap off the cliffs.

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Considering that the event is called "The Reunion" and that JENOVA-SYNTHESIS (its name suggesting an amalgmation of many parts) is found in the Northern Crater into which the black-cloaked folks were diving, its safe to assume that they were being controlled and forced to leap into the Crater, the JENOVA Cells within them being reclaimed below. The Sephiroth form farther down the path even knocks some of them off into the Crater.

Also, note that Cloud senses a malevolent will deep inside the Crater:

Quote

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Cloud
        "He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here."
        "It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..."
        "But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within
this planet's wound."

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Remember the guy in Midgar that you meet early on with Aeris? He has a number tatooed on him. My guess is he was an ex-member of SOLDIER. I believe you meet someone similar in another town (Junon?), but it's been awhile since I played the game. Eventually, both don black capes, and both disapear.

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The fellow in the pipe wasn't a member of SOLDIER. They weren't given numbered tattoos. It was the Sephiroth Clones from Nibelheim who were.

By the way, the Ex-SOLDIER in Junon dons a black cape, but he is not drawn to the Reunion as the fellow in the pipe was.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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He controls the minds of ex-members of SOLDIER and eventually they become replicas of him.

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Members of SOLDIER were not controlled. Merely the Sephiroth Clones of Nibelheim. However, as the fellow in Junon shows us, members and ex-members of SOLDIER did feel the call of the Reunion. They just were not forced to go.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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It's not unereasoable to assume that Cloud was experimented upon and, possibly, injected with Jenova cells during his stay there.

It's not even required that we assume it to be the case. The game tells us it was so:

Quote

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Escapee Report No. 2
Description of the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him.
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected.

(Bolded for emphasis.)

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Where he's content to make all other members of SOLDIER into replicas of himself, he toys with Cloud as a means of revenge because Cloud is the one who got him into this situation in the first place.

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I think you're unaware of the fact that AVALANCHE can fight members of SOLDIER during both of their raids on Shin-Ra Headquarters. They weren't being controlled anymore than the fellow in Junon was.

Quote (Tiddles)

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Who busts Jenova out of the Shinra building in the first place? I have trouble believing she'd just sit there twiddling her thumbs and then deciding to open the door when she felt like a bit of a Reunion. Hojo would certainly realise Jenova's power by this point and would surely keep the cage secure (unless he let it out himself, but I'm inclined to think even Hojo's not THAT crazy at that point in the game.)

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Considering that the creature had been imprisoned for 2,000 years or more, then a guineau pig for another 25 before part of it became free and autonomous (the head taken by Sephiroth, which he would have had no reason to choose to take, but which JENOVA would have plenty of reason to manipulate him into taking, as it would allow part of it to be free and begin to regain strength), I see no reason to believe that the creature didn't free itself. It's not a matter of sitting and twiddling its thumbs. It's a matter of not being strong enough. If you'll recall, JENOVA was still unconscious for a good many years after it was discovered in the present. At least 17 years before the incident in Nibelheim, Ifalna stated that JENOVA could reawaken, however:

Quote

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"Even though Jenova is confined, it could come back to life at some time..."

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By the way, note that it appears that JENOVA's containment vessel was blasted open from within:

Linkage.

Quote (Rujuken)

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First off Sephiroth was infected with Jenova cells while still developing inside Lucretia's womb. Hojo had discovered some of the abilities of Jenova's cells through experiments he did (those monsters in capsules inside the Nibleheim reactor). But these experiments were failures, so Hojo tried injecting cells into this still developing child.

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It's not implied that the fellows in the Mt. Nibel Reactor were experimented upon until after the experimentation upon Lucrecia and Sephiroth. It's too often forgotten that the JENOVA Project was not Hojo's, but Professor Gast's. Hojo was merely Gast's assistant, as was Lucrecia.

Quote (Rujuken)

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He had discovered that Sephiroth was PART Jenova and not simply infected by it like his other experiments, which meant Sephiroth would have control over those infected.

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Why? Being that his body melded with JENOVA's Cells, every cell of his own body should be constituted by JENOVA's genetic material and the Homo Sapien genetic material of his parents. With even his brain no doubt being half-constituted of JENOVA's Cells, I fail to see how he would not be more easily controlled than all the others.

Quote (Rujuken)

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(By the way SOLDIER members are injected with Mako energy NOT Jenova cells.)

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They're infused with Mako (there's a difference between infusion and injection, by the way) and injected with JENOVA's Cells. We're told this by Cloud, and the fact that the Ex-SOLDIER in Junon behaves in a manner akin to the Sephiroth Clones tells us this:

Quote

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Cloud
        "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
        "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"

Quote

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Junon Accessory Shop Owner: "I used to be in SOLDIER. Recently, I've felt like dressing up like this... I don't know, it's out of season, but..."

Quote (Rujuken)

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He had the 1st clone recover the Jenova head from Hojo's lab, because he thought it was his mother and it would give him power.

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Sephiroth was holding JENOVA's head when he fell into the Mt. Nibel Reactor: Linkage. It was JENOVA's body that was freed from the Shin-Ra Headquarters.

Quote (Rujuken)

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Obviously Cloud is succeptable to Sephiroth's control, but why isn't he controlled later when he becomes an even bigger threat? I believe this due to all the exposure he has to the Lifestream. He had a VERY big exposure to the life energy of the Planet, which I think strengthened him, but left him in a mental prison. Then Tifa helped him to unravel their past. I believe this, in the end, severed any hold Sephiroth or Jenova had on him and brought him out of his prison.

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The game makes it farily obvious why Cloud was no longer controllable: He had accepted himself. If you'll recall, Zack was said to be a ladies' man. He was a confident guy who was comfortable with himself. Cloud wasn't and could be manipulated and outright controlled. Based on this, it's safe to assume that all members of SOLDIER were somewhat like Zack and that it was this accepting one's own self that gave them a solid identity and prevented them from being weak willed enough to be controlled. Once Cloud accepted himself after he learned the truth of his past, he was never controlled again, and during the game's ending, he thwarts what was either JENOVA/Sephiroth's will assaulting him once more, or is simply purging his mind of their influence, and does so easily. Acceptance of self is clearly the line of demarcation between those who can resist being controlled and those who can't.

Quote (eternalsphere)

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I think that Cloud was the one who released Jenova. He can be controlled too: remember when Sephiroth controls him to hand over the black materia at the temple of the ancients? The guard was probably going in to check on him when Cloud got controlled. The rest can be inferred: he killed the guard, then proceeded to kill everyone else and free Jenova. There's also a trail of blood leading from Cloud's cell to the Jenova cage. After freeing Jenova he could have been put back in his cell, where he awoke to find his door ajar and things strangely quiet...

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Again, it appears that JENOVA's containment vessel was blasted open from within. The shatter pattern also suggests a blast of some kind, rather than brute force. Further, note that the structure was quite thick. Cloud was no doubt strong, but it would have likely taken him a good bit of time to pound his way through it to the extent that it was damaged.

That would also bring up the question of why he was needed to free the creature in the first place, as it would have obviously done the walking up to the President's Office to kill him on its own either way. In any event, we have Nanaki tell us that whatever killed those People wasn't a Homo Sapien:

Quote

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Barret
        "The hell's goin' on!?"

Red XIII
        "No human could've done this."
        "I'll go on ahead."

For the writers to have him bother saying this at all suggests one of two things, or -- as is more likely -- both:

1) He was likely fairly adept at making such determinations.

2) This was the writer's way of saying "Something that wasn't a Homo Sapien did this."

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To shotgunnova: Yes, anyone could use the Masamune, as Tifa used it against Sephiroth when he left the sword behind after killing her father. The statement that only he could use it, no doubt, as you said is only intended to infer that he is the only one who can skillfully wield it in combat. Most anyone can kill someone with a sword. Not everyone could effectively wield one in battle and defeat their opponent, however.

(Most all Final Fantasy VII script quotes taken from this website: Linkage.)

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 22nd February 2005 08:00

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Quote (Squall of SeeD @ 22nd February 2005 00:32)

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Where he's content to make all other members of SOLDIER into replicas of himself, he toys with Cloud as a means of revenge because Cloud is the one who got him into this situation in the first place.

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I think you're unaware of the fact that AVALANCHE can fight members of SOLDIER during both of their raids on Shin-Ra Headquarters. They weren't being controlled anymore than the fellow in Junon was.

Aware. I simply considered it an aspect of the game that the developers had overlooked.

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I'll accept that the numbered clones are experiments from after Nibelheim. Injected with Jenova, correct? Would you agree that this link with Jenova is what allows Sephiroth to control them?

If so, then I believe that Sephiroth could control members of SOLDIER as well. As your post indicates, all members of SOLDIER are injected with Jenova cells, and the ex-member of SOLDIER who resides in Junon becomes a (perhaps weaker) Sephiroth clone. Even if all members of SOLDIER are not forced to particpate in the reunion, based on this evidence I don't find it unreasonable to conclude that some of them do. Perhaps those in Midgar are just the lucky ones.

Regardless of the status of the SOLDIERs, the point I was making is that the Jenova cells are what allow Sephiroth to tap into Cloud's mind.

I'd also like to pose a question to you, since you've obviously researched the plot in more detail than the rest of us: is the Sephiroth(s) we see on disk 1 a clone from Nibelheim or body parts of Jenova, or, (I believe you may have said this but I'm trying to get out the door and can't read carefully) clones from Nibelheim carrying body parts of Jenova?

I was always under the impression there were multiple clones that BECAME the various Jenovas that you fight. From my quick read through your post, you seem to indicate it is perhaps one clone that carries the body parts along with him and drops them on the party.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 22nd February 2005 23:22

Quote (KefkaLives)

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I'll accept that the numbered clones are experiments from after Nibelheim.  Injected with Jenova, correct?  Would you agree that this link with Jenova is what allows Sephiroth to control them?

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It was most certainly the presence of JENOVA Cells in their bodies that allowed them to be controlled by JENOVA/Sephiroth, yes. Only those with JENOVA Cells within them were ever controlled or manipulated.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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If so, then I believe that Sephiroth could control members of SOLDIER as well.  As your post indicates, all members of SOLDIER are injected with Jenova cells, and the ex-member of SOLDIER who resides in Junon becomes a (perhaps weaker) Sephiroth clone.  Even if all members of SOLDIER are not forced to particpate in the reunion, based on this evidence I don't find it unreasonable to conclude that some of them do.  Perhaps those in Midgar are just the lucky ones.

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A major aspect of the story's plot was emphasising acceptance of one's self. It was being unable to do this that caused Cloud to be weak. He despised who he was and wished only to be stronger, thinking that this would make him liked.

He later becomes a semi-vegetable after Hojo's experimentation, and again after falling into the Lifestream. What we know about Cloud is that he didn't accept himself, and he suffered from extreme Mako Poisoning on two occasions. Zack, however, someone in SOLDIER (like the fellow in Junon) was a confident fellow who obviously liked himself. Aerith even states that he had been a ladies' man, certainly suggesting a confident nature.

Keeping these things in mind, recall that Mako is derived from the Lifestream, and that the Lifestream contains the memories of those who have lived and died in the past. Materia, crystalized Spirit Energy, is said to contain the memories of the Ancients, and that it acts as a conduit between its wielder and the Planet, allowing them to call forth Magic. With this in mind, infusing someone with Mako would essentially be infusing them with the memories of a lot of dead People.

Someone like Cloud, who can't even accept himself -- as most People cannot -- would obviously lose himself amongst those other memories, as did the other Nibelheim experiments, with one exception: Zack, the self-confident fellow. Cloud even says that a weak Person such as himself is lost when in those situations:

Cloud
"You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy."
"Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
"For better or for worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER."
"It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion."
"But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing."

Interestingly enough, after Cloud admitted to the others that he was weak and ACCEPTED himself as weak, he became strong, and was able to either thwart JENOVA/Sephiroth's final attempt to control him during the game's ending, or rid himself of its/his/their influence. In either case, it was accepting that he was weak that made him strong.

If Cloud was determined unfit to enter SOLDIER, as we know he was -- and there's certainly no suggestion that any physical shortfalls prevented him from being elligible, only his mind being shown to be weak -- then it's fair to infer that the weakness that prevented him from entering would not be a weakness present in those who WERE in SOLDIER. In other words, they would have all been People like Zack to some degree: Self-confident and self-accepting.

We see members of SOLDIER resist the negative effects of BOTH materials they were subjected to: Zack didn't suffer Mako Poisoning, and the Junon Accessory Shop owner wasn't forced against his will into going to the Reunion. He only felt an urge to wear a black cloak.

Based on all this, I can only see the implication as being strongly that none of the SOLDIERs would have been drawn to the Reunion.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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I'd also like to pose a question to you, since you've obviously researched the plot in more detail than the rest of us: is the Sephiroth(s) we see on disk 1 a clone from Nibelheim or body parts of Jenova, or, (I believe you may have said this but I'm trying to get out the door and can't read carefully) clones from Nibelheim carrying body parts of Jenova? 

I was always under the impression there were multiple clones that BECAME the various Jenovas that you fight.  From my quick read through your post, you seem to indicate it is perhaps one clone that carries the body parts along with him and drops them on the party.

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I was saying that the indication seems to be that parts of JENOVA's own body were those Sephiroth forms and that they became JENOVA-LIFE, JENOVA-BIRTH, and JENOVA-DEATH.

We know that when JENOVA-BIRTH was defeated, AVALANCHE identifies the throbbing object on the floor in the aftermath as being a tentacle of JENOVA, Tifa stating that she had seen this before (meaning she had seen it in the Shin-Ra Headquarters). With this in mind, when JENOVA-BIRTH was defeated, it reverted into its actual form: JENOVA's tentacle.

The Sephiroth form that had been present before JENOVA-BIRTH's appearance vanished off the top of the screen, only for the object that became JENOVA-BIRTH to fall from the top of the screen a moment later. While this alone wouldn't be enough to suggest that parts of JENOVA were the Sephiroth forms, there's the matter of the Sephiroth form at the City of the Ancients vanishing in a flash of light, only for the object that became JENOVA-LIFE to fall from where the Sephiroth form had been.

Finally, in the Whirlwind Maze of the Northern Crater, the Sephiroth form seen slaughtering black-cloaked folks says "This is the end of this body's usefulness" and vanishes, only to reappear above AVALANCHE and descend on them, landing near them, then turning to face them with its Masamune drawn and it standing in a battle-ready position. The environment map then transitions to the battle map. However, the Sephiroth form is no longer present on the screen, and AVALANCHE's opponent is JENOVA-DEATH. When JENOVA-DEATH is defeated and the screen reverts to the environment map, the Sephiroth form is still gone, and the Black Materia is laying where JENOVA-DEATH had been. The Black Materia had been given to a Sephiroth form by Cloud much earlier. In other words, the Sephiroth form WAS JENOVA-DEATH.

Based on the Sephiroth form of the Whirlwind Maze having obviously become JENOVA-DEATH, the one at the City of the Ancients being reasonably interpreted as having become JENOVA-LIFE, and JENOVA-BIRTH having reverted into JENOVA's tentacle, a part of JENOVA's body, it's fair to infer that all three Sephiroth forms encountered just before the JENOVA-BIRTH, JENOVA-LIFE, and JENOVA-DEATH battles transformed into those JENOVA forms that were fought, and that all three were pieces of JENOVA's body.

(All Final Fantasy VII script quotes taken from this website: Linkage.)

This post has been edited by Squall of SeeD on 23rd February 2005 00:01

--------------------

My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The Sephiroth you see throughout is NOT the clones. Why? Because the clones don't actually look like him. As you saw the guy in the tube looked nothing like him, later you see him in the temple of the ancients, if it were a clone he'd have gotten the materia there and then. That Seph is a mental projection of the old fart through the Jenova cells (As said above).

Next up, Sephiroth died, Cloud killed him all those years ago, his body was gone... BUT his mind was too strong and remained dominant in the lifestream because of Jenova cells gaining all that knowledge. The half-Sephiroth you see later that you give the black materia to did NOT 'float down from there' it was a NEW GROWING BODY cacooned in materia. Yes, it was forming, it had nothing to do with his old body, only the power of his thinky-brain.

It's all right there for you to see.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 01:39

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

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Interesting. Your post seems to suggest that Jenova then, and not Sephiroth, is actually the main antagonist of the game. Assuming, of course, that the Jenova body parts are acting independently and are not being controlled by Sephiroth from his encasement.

That is mostly a matter of interpretation. I prefer to think that Sephiroth is still controlling them, primarily because the alternative indicates that Jenova is responsible for Aeris' death. This negates a major motive for the party to seek vengence against Sephiroth. Since, within the confines of the game, the party unveils all the information you've presented to us it seems they would be able to piece this together and pinpoint Jenova as the major villian. They never do. Without Sephiroth being responsible there is a conflict in the plot.

Also, Sephiroth/Jenova seems to take a special interest in Cloud. Sephiroth, due to the events in Nibelheim, would have more of an interest in this than Jenova, who would presumably settle for using any of the clones. There is also the final scene in the game, where Jenova has been destroyed and the final confrontation is clearly between the consciousnesses of Sephiroth and Cloud.

A few follow up questions:

If the Nibelheim clones do not evolve into Sephiroth forms, what is their major purpose? There seems to be none, other than for them to return to the life stream at the reunion. However, this would render them pointless to the plot. Hojo creates failed experiments, they serve no purpose, they return to the lifestream. The writers could just as easily have removed them from the plot altogether.

Can you provide evidence from the game that the clones are Nibelheim townspeople and not ex-members of SOLDIER? I'll take your word for it because Tiddles has also posted something to this effect. However, I haven't played the game in years, and I'd like to read something that actually states the black-cloaked people are leftovers from Nibelheim.

EDIT: I found your evidence on the FAQ suggestions thread. No need to repost it. However, I believe the letter and the report to Hojo do not confirm that the clones are exclusively from Nibelheim because of the following:

If only people from Nibelheim are tattooed, why is Red XIII given the number XIII?

Quote

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Tifa
         "I don't even know what the Black Cape is..."
         "How many men with Black Capes and number tattoos are there?"

Red XIII
         "...you know, of course... My tattoo is number 13."

Cloud
         "How did you get that tattoo?"

Red XIII
         "...Hojo put it on me. Everything else is just war scars, but the
number was done by Hojo."

Tifa
         "So there are at least 13!?"

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Granted, Red XIII never becomes a Sephiroth clone. But this would seem to indicate that all of Hojo's numbered experiments are not restricted exclusively to Nibelheim. It seems that Hojo could have drawn some of his experiments from other places. Again, even though the ex-SOLDIER from Junon does not participate in the reunion, and is not tattooed, it would seem to indicate that members of SOLDIER are susceptible to Sephiroth's will as well. I understand you feel differently, but don't think it can be conclusively ruled out.

Which still begs the question, what is the purpose of the clones? You've convinced me they are not the Sephiroth forms we see on Disk 1 and early Disk 2. But why do they exist in the game at all?

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 23rd February 2005 03:25

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No, what I sujest is that Jenova and Seph have, for lack of a better phrase, become one.

I think Hojo's plan to mix Aeris' and Nanaki's DNA is why he carries the 13. The offspring being the actual goal. And another 'Seph clone test'.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 02:52

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Quote

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No, what I sujest is that Jenova and Seph have, for lack of a better phrase, become one.

I think Hojo's plan to mix Aeris' and Nanaki's DNA is why he carries the 13. The offspring being the actual goal. And another 'Seph clone test'.

I was actually responding to Squall of SeeD's post, Mu. I didn't read yours until after I replied. However, I'm glad you're in on the discussion.

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Right now, I'm convinced that the Sephiroth replicas (I'll use that word to refer to the exact duplicates of Sephiroth that you chase and to distinguish them from the "clones") are actually Jenova body parts. I say "right now" because I haven't played the game in a long time, but I'll have to in light of this new information.

Moving right along, if the Nanaki/Aeris experiment is an attempt at "another Seph clone test" this seems to prove my point that clones are not restricted exclusively to Nibelheim. If it was not another clone test, then why number it in progression to the other clones? If it was an entirely different experiment, wouldn't Hojo have used a number other than "XIII" so that he could differentiate?

And please, by all means Mu, tell me why the clones exist in the first place. I used to think they became the Sephiroth replicas. Squall of SeeD has convinced me otherwise. However, I still have some lingering suspicion that they're involved with the replicas to some extent. The only reason being that if they are not, then they seem to serve no other purpose to the plot.

This post has been edited by KefkaLives on 23rd February 2005 03:20

Aheh, sorry. All the highlighting is confusing me to who's talking to who. ^^;

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Well, try to keep in mind that the experiment did not start when Sephiroth died, it started before he was born. There were countless pre-Seph experiments with Jenova cells such as Vincent's little run-in, but after Seph was born Hojo seemed to start various experiments using Seph's DNA. Some were clones created using the DNA, others bred with it, and others injected, each one given a number save one (Cloud) who'd failed. Nanaki to me proves that Hojo wasn't just doing the same thing over and over but trying many different ways of manipulating the cells of his son.
Meaning the experiments on Cloud and Zack were nothing like what they do in SOLDIER, because not counting them there were only 13 clones, who you see die off one-by-one throughout the chase.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 03:07

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel @ 22nd February 2005 20:36)

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That Seph is a mental projection of the old fart through the Jenova cells (As said above).

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While the form seen within the Northern Crater, taunting Cloud for the final times before he willingly handed over the Black Materia was likely nothing more than a projection, as was the Nibelheim scenery around it, the other Sephiroth forms were clearly actually there. Despite the fact that they phased through solid objects (the floor of the Shin-Ra Cargo Ship and a cieling in the Temple of the Ancients), they were still very much there. Note that they became solid after phasing through those objects, with the one on the Cargo Ship either dropping a very solid piece of JENOVA or transforming into it, and the one in the Temple skewering Tseng.

Simply because the forms could phase through solid objects doesn't mean they weren't normally solid objects themselves. JENOVA is shown to be a being of extensive psionic power. Phasing through solid objects could easily be among those powers, especially seeing as how teleportation at will, flight, the ability to teleport someone else from one location to another (Cloud at the Northern Crater), the ability to create extremely realistic illusions, and change form at will are already among its list of capabilities.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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Next up, Sephiroth died, Cloud killed him all those years ago, his body was gone... BUT his mind was too strong and remained dominant in the lifestream because of Jenova cells gaining all that knowledge.

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I fail to see an actual indication for Sephiroth having been dead, at least in the sense that his body was destroyed, as -- were his body dead and without Sephiroth's Spirit Energy -- why would the Black Materia should have been able to interact between it and the Lifestream to Summon Meteor?

As for Sephiroth's mind being strong, I daresay he was mentally weaker than Cloud. Any argument that Sephiroth was engineering anything and not being manipulated by JENOVA because his will was too strong is defeating itself, really, as anyone that would wreak massive slaughter and raze a town to the ground simply because they read a journal suggesting that the ancestors of these People had abandoned his own ancestors to die in the defense of the Planet is completely insane. That's not a logical reason to strike out. There is no sound reasoning in such an action. The often made argument that "It was all him, but he was just insane" also defeats the "He wasn't being manipulated argument" in that if he were so strong-willed, he shouldn't have gone insane in the first place just because he learned he might have had a lousy origin.

Any way one slices it, Sephiroth was weak. If you, however, have reason to believe otherwise, please do let me know. I'll be interested in reading it.

By the way, were his original body destroyed upon him falling into through the Reactor on Mt. Nibel, even if he were in control of himself, he would have had no experience at the time with manipulating anything (we never even see him use any form of psionic abilities during his time in Nibelheim) or using JENOVA's power, and his Spirit Energy would have no doubt been immediately reclaimed by the Lifestream, seeing as how he would have died while falling through a Reactor that was directly above the Lifestream.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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The half-Sephiroth you see later that you give the black materia to did NOT 'float down from there' it was a NEW GROWING BODY cacooned in materia. Yes, it was forming, it had nothing to do with his old body, only the power of his thinky-brain.

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You offer no evidence for this. o.O What we have is the in-game supported possibility of Sephiroth's body floating through the Lifestream to the Northern Crater (in-game supported because we already know from Ifalna and Professor Gast's dialogue in the Icicle Inn Original Crisis tapes that the flow of Spirit Energy was being directed to the Northern Crater by the Planet, as it was constantly trying to heal the wound that was the Northern Crater), with the body likely having lost its legs when it fell through the siphoning area of the Mt. Nibel Reactor, and then another theory for which you haven't yet explained where the organic material necessary to make a new body for Sephiroth would have come from, or why his Spirit Energy wasn't immediately reclaimed by the Lifestream if his body were incinerated upon falling into the siphoning area of the Mt. Nibel Reactor. Assuming the new body were composed completely of JENOVA's Cells, that still leaves the unexplained question of why the Cells didn't form a complete body, as had been done previously in regard to at least JENOVA-DEATH.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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Well, try to keep in mind that the experiment did not start when Sephiroth died, it started before he was born. There were countless pre-Seph experiments with Jenova cells such as Vincent's little run-in, but after Seph was born Hojo seemed to start various experiments using Seph's DNA.

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It is never said that there were any experiments in the JENOVA Project before the experiment conducted on Lucrecia and Sephiroth. There may have been, and there very well may have not. As for Vincent, we don't even know what Hojo did to him, including whether or not JENOVA's Cells played a part in that experimentation. Further still, Vincent was experimented upon after Sephiroth was born.

One more thing: It's never indicated at all that Sephiroth's cells were used for any experiments.

Quote (Mu the Squirrel)

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Some were clones created using the DNA, others bred with it, and others injected, each one given a number save one (Cloud) who'd failed. Nanaki to me proves that Hojo wasn't just doing the same thing over and over but trying many different ways of manipulating the cells of his son.

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Again, no one in the game was grown out of a tube of cells. That's never indicated or supported. The one time someone believed they were (Sephiroth), it's proven to be false. It's never even suggested that Shin-Ra had the technology to do such a thing. For that matter, if it were so, using the Nibelheim residents wouldn't have been necessary to begin with.

Also, once more, Cloud was not a failure. The game tells us that he had a reaction to JENOVA's Cells. He didn't receive a Number because he wasn't there to get one.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Since, within the confines of the game, the party unveils all the information you've presented to us it seems they would be able to piece this together and pinpoint Jenova as the major villian. They never do. Without Sephiroth being responsible there is a conflict in the plot.

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I don't doubt that Sephiroth was acting of his own accord -- or at least thinking that he was -- at some points. Seeing as how Sephiroth's body was half-composed of JENOVA's Cells, controlling him shouldn't be necessary in the event that ideas could be fed to him telepathically, which seems to have been the case:

(From Cloud's flashback in Nibelheim.)

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"I am the chosen one. I have been chosen to be the leader of this
Planet."
        "I have orders to take this planet back from you stupid people
for the Cetra.

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Who chose him? Who gave him these orders? We don't see anyone say these things to him, so in the event that Sephiroth truly said these things to Zack and Cloud wasn't just confused in his recollection of events (as he was with so much else), then something was telling him these things.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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Also, Sephiroth/Jenova seems to take a special interest in Cloud. Sephiroth, due to the events in Nibelheim, would have more of an interest in this than Jenova, who would presumably settle for using any of the clones.

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I agree with you in a way. Though it's doubtful that Sephiroth would have had a reason to hold a grudge, as -- if Sephiroth were in control -- he would have had nothing but reason to thank Cloud, as throwing him into the Lifestream would have ended up working out for him better far than his other plan and would have granted him access to a great deal of knowledge.

A point of conflict with this matter, however, is that the Sephiroth form on the Shin-Ra Cargo Ship didn't recognize Cloud:

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Cloud
        "Sephiroth! You're alive!"

        "........Who are you?"

Cloud
        "You don't remember me!? I'm Cloud!"

        "Cloud..."

Cloud
        "Sephiroth! What are you thinking!? What are you doing!?"

        "...the time..... is now......"

Cloud
        "What are you saying!? Be more..."

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It's arguable that JENOVA could have had an interest in Cloud once it learned that he was relatively autonomous.

Quote (KefkaLives)

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There is also the final scene in the game, where Jenova has been destroyed and the final confrontation is clearly between the consciousnesses of Sephiroth and Cloud.

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In all fairness, JENOVA has yet to be destroyed. Its head is still around in Advent Children. Anyway, I also interpret that scene as being a battle of wills, like yourself, though I imagine JENOVA must have been the link between the two even then. Your thoughts?

Quote (KefkaLives)

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If the Nibelheim clones do not evolve into Sephiroth forms, what is their major purpose? There seems to be none, other than for them to return to the life stream at the reunion. However, this would render them pointless to the plot. Hojo creates failed experiments, they serve no purpose, they return to the lifestream. The writers could just as easily have removed them from the plot altogether.

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Their presence was that of a plot device, pretty much, through which Cloud was in the position of being manipulated and outright controlled due to the presence of JENOVA Cells in his body. The Reunion Theory and wasn't all that integral on a wide scale as it was integral to Cloud's development in the game.


As for the number of Clones, I seem to recall more than 13 black-cloaked folks at the Whirlwind Maze. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Nanaki, though numbered with a "XIII," certainly isn't one of the Sephiroth Clones. As far as it goes, Hojo seemed to have numbered most of his experiments. The boss fought in his lab is named "HO512," suggesting he had at least 512 experiments.

There's also the question of whether or not Nanaki was even from the same experimental line as the others. Sadly, we're not told if Hojo numbered more than one subject line starting at "I." It seems rather unlikely, though, that he wouldn't have any experiments in the 25 years after Sephiroth's birth, then suddenly experimented on 12 Nibelheim residents, Nanaki, and then another 499 creatures, all in five years' time.

Let me know if I forgot to respond to anything. I think I got it all.

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My Final Fantasy VII Plot Analysis

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" — Edmund Burke

You're at it again. -.- It's 6am and I can't be arsed with this...but...

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1. I never said they weren't solid. I said they were formed from the Jenova cells through Sephie's will.

2. He was a child born as part of Jenova, of course his mind could resist the lifestream that's what Hojo created him for.

3. Evidence: He had no lower half. Lower halves don't just fall off. What the game said was the lifestream flowed to the wound, and that is where Seph's soul ended up, at the heart. Bangenhagen showed how the stream did flow, and at one point in the game it did say Seph wasn't absorbed into the lifestream, I just can't remember where, and I'm not replaying FF7 for this.

4. There are...JENOVA 'things' growing in pods at the Nibel reactor. I'm sure you remember the scene. While Seph wasn't created this way, there's also no proof no one else was.

Please keep in mind you too are working with conjecture and not total fact because the game dun offer total fact.

This post has been edited by Mu the Squirrel on 23rd February 2005 06:13

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.