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This is in response to the "Opinions about FF4..." thread, and I was going to post there but I thought it seemed like a whole different discussion so I posted it as a new thread. Personally 4 is my favorite of the FF series, and rather than team up to offer the same defenses of the game (as the other thread seems to be doing) I offer the question what would you change, in hindsight, to make it better?

There are going to be spoilers in a conversation like this, so rather than mask everything in spoiler text, just consider this a warning I guess.

I always thought the beginning went too fast, you go from flying into Mysidia to being kicked out of the RedWings in about, oh, 5 minutes. I would like to have seen a little bit more of the game (at the expense of the whole moon thing, but I'll get to that later) devoted to Cecil's time in Baron. Perhaps we could have seen him grow up, or seen his rise to leader of the RedWings;

Maybe more of the plot could have been devoted to just how the King came to be taken over and the changes in Baron as it was happening.

Perhaps a sidequest where the story splits and you control Kain at some points on his journey towards 'the dark side'. That would have been cool, but they never fully explain the things going on in his head as he bounces back and forth from side to side. I guess it could have been more psychological like 6 and 7 overall. Who are these characters and why are they doing the things that they're doing? Only Cecil gets that kind of depth, and I would like to have seen more.

There's tons more, I just started a game so I'm sure I'll think of stuff, but I just wanted to see what everyone else thought.

Also, quickly- change FuSoYa's name, no stupid damn whale-ship, and no moon altogether really... so few things to do to merit a whole new map..

This post has been edited by imperialstooge on 18th January 2005 08:53

I would have liked to have the option to not become a Paladin, even if it meant that Cecil would be useless agaisnt Golbez. I [probably woulda done it anyways, but I'd really prefer to have a choice.

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Mercy?! I am the sixth phase of your world's destruction! would you like some evil pie?

My name is Fox, I am infinitely great, and I am the author of this comic strip..

The reason people "team up to offer the same defenses" is because they ARE valid defenses.

I wouldn't change anything. The game has captivated the heart of roleplayers all over when it came out and for many, it set the standard for what an RPG should be like. We've come quite a long way since then and some things have changed, but far too many people view the game in the same scope than modern RPGs. Let's not forget this game is over ten years old, people, and NOT fit to be judged with the same criteria as, say, X-2 or what-have-you.

I would've liked to see its genre being prolonged a little longer. FF went from crystals/mages/flying-boat-airships/castles/supernatural villains to technology/evil alliances/blimps/corporative buildings/insane villains only two games from this one... Kinda makes you wonder why Square decided to change things so abruptly.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

The only things I would really truly change, are:

1. Giving Rydia some really great hard to get armor that gives a realy boost to her defense.

2. Make it easier to find the dreaded Pink Puffs.

And that's pretty much it. The first one because some gamers have trouble with her defense, and the second one because quite a lot of people skip the Armor.

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Could you repeat that?

To have the choice to remain a Dark Knight and create a twist on the storyline, it'd be interesting to see a new variety of weapons as opposed to what the Paladin gets along the way. Excuse the length of the post but what more can you really say to that? lol

Only thing I would change would be add the ATB gauge in the battles.

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This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

I realy wouldn't change much, just speed up the opening, add a way to skip over the cutscenes and rework the character sprites on the overhead map a little. Also I'd have liked a hard mode considering that after playing it through once, it was too easy in my other playthroughs. (However, I only have Final Fantasy 2(US) so who am I to judge?) The rest is just fine to me, despite the imperfections. Other then, that I don't have much to say except that to me, it is just fine the way it is.

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Role reversal at its finest.

I would have liked to see more character depth and for the characters that appeared to have died actually to have died.

I can see the twins being rescued, but honestly, Yang and Cid should have bit the big one, getting blow to smithereens like they were. Them suddenly turning up alive kinda kills the impact of them dying.

I also would have not bothered making Zeromus the final boss. Why was he even there in the first place? Defeating the final villain only to discover that he was just a puppet of a true villain who is only featured in the game for barely the last hour just seems cheap.

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And behold, I saw a Pale Gaming System, and the name of he who rode it was Squaresoft, and Enix followed him.

I like the game as it is. You really can't change anything without completely screwing up some fundamental point of the game or another.
So this post will primarily deal with defending the things that get changed by everyone else.

Quote (imperialstooge @ 18th January 2005 03:51)

I always thought the beginning went too fast, you go from flying into Mysidia to being kicked out of the RedWings in about, oh, 5 minutes.  I would like to have seen a little bit more of the game (at the expense of the whole moon thing, but I'll get to that later) devoted to Cecil's time in Baron.  Perhaps we could have seen him grow up, or seen his rise to leader of the RedWings;

Maybe more of the plot could have been devoted to just how the King came to be taken over and the changes in Baron as it was happening.

Cecil attacking Mysidia and finally standing up against the king was the trigger for the story.
Seeing the king change from an outside view kind of ruins the "didn't see it coming" aspect of his turning. It would have made Cecil, Cain, Rosa, and Cid seem like incredibly stupid people.

Quote (imperialstooge @ 18th January 2005 03:51)

Perhaps a sidequest where the story splits and you control Kain at some points on his journey towards 'the dark side'.  That would have been cool, but they never fully explain the things going on in his head as he bounces back and forth from side to side.  I guess it could have been more psychological like 6 and 7 overall.  Who are these characters and why are they doing the things that they're doing?  Only Cecil gets that kind of depth, and I would like to have seen more.

Remember that this game was made in the time period where it was thought the main character was the center of the story. You see the events of the story (other than the two cutscenes of Golbeze in his Tower) from the view of the main character, not an omniscient, non-interfering god.

Quote (Fox @ 18th January 2005 06:02)

I would have liked to have the option to not become a Paladin, even if it meant that Cecil would be useless agaisnt Golbez. I [probably woulda done it anyways, but I'd really prefer to have a choice.

Completely ruins the idea of Cecil having to go through a trial for redemption if nothing changes.
Going from a Dark Knight to a Light Knight is important display of Cecil redeeming himself. Again, if nothing changes then where is the redemption?
Golbeze could not use the Crystal against Zeromus because he was "a man of darkness."
Light sends the darkness away, not more darkness.

Quote (Silverlance @ 18th January 2005 08:11)

Let's not forget this game is over ten years old, people, and NOT fit to be judged with the same criteria as, say, X-2 or what-have-you.

That's like saying newer = better

Quote (Green Magi @ 18th January 2005 15:01)

1. Giving Rydia some really great hard to get armor that gives a realy boost to her defense.

Like the Adamant armor

Quote (Dawezy @ 18th January 2005 17:35)

To have the choice to remain a Dark Knight and create a twist on the storyline, it'd be interesting to see a new variety of weapons as opposed to what the Paladin gets along the way.

You would also have to have an entirely different second half of the game.

Quote (Racthoh @ 18th January 2005 18:42)

Only thing I would change would be add the ATB gauge in the battles.

That would actually be a good idea, if not for seeing the ATB bar would be like seeing it in FFV - pointless. I turned it off when I played V.

Quote (Tonepoet @ 18th January 2005 20:05)

Also I'd have liked a hard mode

Five versions of the game not enough for you?

Quote (sharkerbob @ 19th January 2005 06:16)

I would have liked to see more character depth and for the characters that appeared to have died actually to have died.

I can see the twins being rescued, but honestly, Yang and Cid should have bit the big one, getting blow to smithereens like they were.  Them suddenly turning up alive kinda kills the impact of them dying.

Legit complaint, but I still like the seige on the Giant of Babil, and the aspect of all those who had joined you on your journey coming in and helping, and not just going away. It gives all those on you met on your journey a purpose beyond "extra guy randomly put in to keep you from dying at Point X of game."
Having large numbers dying does away with the emotional impact of death. Hearing "A gajillion people died in this tragedy" doesn't affect people on a personal level as much as hearing of one specific individual dying. It give more weight to Tella's and Anna's deaths.

Quote (sharkerbob @ 19th January 2005 06:16)

I also would have not bothered making Zeromus the final boss.  Why was he even there in the first place?  Defeating the final villain only to discover that he was just a puppet of a true villain who is only featured in the game for barely the last hour just seems cheap.

Zeromus wasn't Zemus' puppeteer. He was a nether-demony thingie that was a physical manifestation of Zemus' hatred. He was pushed into existence by the explosion of hatred from Zemus when he was killed.
Besides, how much sense does it make that Zemus was subdued by FuSoYa all these years only to be so much more powerful than him, even with Golbeze's backup?

Edit

Actually, you know what? I would change one thing - I would make Jump useful. It completely blows, and its usefulness is extremely over-exaggerated

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

What would i change well i have a couple of things i would of liked to see changed.

1.) i think the ending needed to be changed it left too many unanswered questions and not enough revelations.

2.) i think it was a bit over played how everyone who wasnt on your team anymore were either killed or wounded severally they needed a different way to do this i think.

3.) i think with three airships and a hover craft you should of had an airship hanger or something. some place you could put all your air ships with out haveing to search all around for them.

4.) i think they needed to go more in zemus you really dont know anything about him till practially the end of the game.

5.) chocobos where too under played in this they needed to be given a bigger role i think.

Anyways those are the things that annoyed me the most in the game i think.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Hmm...

1- I can't see what you mean, frankly. The game wrapped up pretty neatly, IMO...

2- That's mainly to avoid having unexplainable idiocy. "Sure Cecil, I'm going to fight Zeromus with you! But uh... you go to the moon alone, allright? I'll stay here and hope you win." If the characters hadn't been wounded one way or another, Square would have bad inconsistencies. And let,s face it: who would've saved Cecil and his crew before the final battle?

3- I'd call that nitpicking. ;P

4- Agreed, though most of it was for the sake of mystery. You already know who's going to be the last boss in 7, for instance, and it doesn't bring about a complete sense of "OMG I didn't see that coming"-ness. Can't be as bad as 9's last boss though.

5- Hmm, they're pretty much just vehicules. I don't see a reason why this would make the game as a whole better...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

One thing only- Whats the deal with the moon floating away at the end? I thought they were gonna sleep til we were more evolved, then the moon floated away. That bugged the crap out of

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

It was more or less implied that they didn't feel a need to stay and watch anymore, and began looking for their own place in the universe (that bit about the moon looking for its own light or something like that; memory's fuzzy).

That's more or less how I understood it...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (DarkPaladin)

Quote (Tonepoet @ 18th January 2005 20:05)

Also I'd have liked a hard mode

Five versions of the game not enough for you?

Did you read my entire post DP? I did say more on the subject:

Quote (Tonepoet)

Also I'd have liked a hard mode considering that after playing it through once, it was too easy in my other playthroughs. (However, I only have Final Fantasy 2(US) so who am I to judge?)

I do realize there are more versions but I can only suggest changes they could've made to the to the one I have played. Me suggesting changes on the Japanese, Playstation, Wonderswan Color and Japanese Easy type versions would be unfair because I've never played them. I'm only talking about FF 2(US).

Anyway, for anybody who might need a clarification of the logic I had behind my above quote, here it is:

The US version was made after the Japanese version of the game. I was thinking that since Square already making changes anyhow they could have made it more like:

Normal: U.S. stats, battle scripts ect.
Hard: Japanese stats, battle scripts ect.

Where would it go? I was thinking that there could be a little box could pop up before you play the game. However, I'm not entirly sure about the possiblility since I don't know how to program but it doesn't sound to hard. (Okay, so maybe data storage would be an issue because the SNES carts hold such a small amount of info but I'm betting there are ways to work around that.)

Of course this is just a pipe dream, things happened differntly and I'm quite happy with the way they turned out. (I just don't like the idea of needing to buy a different version of the same game.)

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Role reversal at its finest.

Quote (sharkerbob @ 19th January 2005 06:16)

I would have liked to see more character depth and for the characters that appeared to have died actually to have died.

I'm with you there. Far too many times did dead characters come back. The twins' death was especially traumatic; I think it was the most emotional part, and then voila they're alive on an airship....

What I would change is being able to choose your final lineup for the moon area. I just don't like Edge that much (despite that he's a ninja) so it would be nice to swap him for Yang or someone.

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Get me off this Disciplinary Committee so I can play any FF except for FF8!!!

Golbez would have been the final boss, even after you discover that he is your brother. Now THAT would have been an epic final battle (FFX tried something similar, but I think that game is terrible). Plus, Golbez was the epitome of videogame evil at that time. Zeromus just pops out of nowhere, and even at the very end he's not that interesting. I hate not being introduced to a final boss until the very end of the game. FFIX was 20x worse with this, however.

the only thing that i would change is that i would have like to have been able to choose the characters for my party
other than that i loved the game

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Quote (KefkaLives @ 21st January 2005 00:42)

Golbez would have been the final boss, even after you discover that he is your brother. Now THAT would have been an epic final battle (FFX tried something similar, but I think that game is terrible). Plus, Golbez was the epitome of videogame evil at that time. Zeromus just pops out of nowhere, and even at the very end he's not that interesting. I hate not being introduced to a final boss until the very end of the game. FFIX was 20x worse with this, however.

Right on man, having Golbez as the final boss would have rocked.

Edward. His presence in the story was... unbalanced. Most supporting characters appeared several times over the course of the story. Only Palom/Porom and Edge don't have an early game/late game appearance, and they are around long enough to make them seem important to the story (and lets face it, Palom/Porom had one of the best video game "deaths" ever).

But alas for poor Edward! He wasn't powerful at all, but you could see potential. Even his weakest harps had handy abilities like "sleep" and "charm"--what would a harp recovered on the moon do? I could imagine a harp named "Dirge" that randomly cast "death" on an enemy, and songs of haste and wall and other priceless abilities. And even that apparently lousy Hide ability could have been handy in some of the game's fiercer battles, as he could dodge potentially lethal magicks and then pop in to heal the party back up in no time.

He was a complex character, too, with a tragic story and a good heart. The fight against the water hag where he sees Anna encouraging him seemed to be setting him on a heroic path all his own. And then, at Castle Fabul, even though Edward is by far the weakest member of your party, he steps up with Cecil and Yang to defend the castle while the girls stay behind in relative safety.

When I first saw him in Toria, my heart jumped as I thought I was going to get my bard back. You could even see his TwinHarp sitting at the top of the room. But no, he only got me through the fight with the Dark Elf, and then wished for me when I fought Zeromus on the moon.

If I could change one thing about FFVI, I would put Edward on the party for at least an hour longer late-game. He'd get some cool harps, show that he'd grown into a hero over the course of the story, and maybe make Edge seem even more dorky as fully-grown Rydia swoons over some Damcyan royal heroics.

Quote (Dark Paladin)

You would also have to have an entirely different second half of the game.

Precisely.

Makes for something different, which is always good to challenge those who know the game in and out.

Quote (Dawezy @ 23rd January 2005 22:59)

Quote (Dark Paladin)

You would also have to have an entirely different second half of the game.

Precisely.

Makes for something different, which is always good to challenge those who know the game in and out.

But that's not very feasible now, is it?

Let's not forget that the space in a cartridge is limited. And while FF4 wasn't too big, space was costly enough that making the game any bigger would've driven up the price. Adding a second scenario, and possible a second set of monsters, characters, and dungeons, would've been pretty costly.

Besides, FF4's story was about a dark knight's progression to paladinhood; Cecil IS the side of Light. The story would've fallen apart unless Golbez took the path of light, and that would hardly be reasonable anymore... ;P

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I liked very much this game is one of my favorites and the only things I would change will be the row system, and add edge a high steal percentage,kupo

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"Its no cheating if you don't get caught"

Instead of something specifically on the plot itself, I would say a better translated dialogue. The minute grammatical mistakes like forgetting articles and what not didn't really bother me, but Cecil yelling "Oh my!" and stuff like that drew away from his character I thought... and there's quite a few moments like that in the dialogue.

As far as specific plot changes... I thought Rydia could have been much more interesting with a little more expansion on her. I think the visit to the monster world in the Underground could have been an interesting moment.

I think a little more focus on all the characters would have been nice actually. Don't get me wrong, I loved the characters and their issues, but it could have been even better.

A few people said fighting Golbez as the final boss would have been cool - but not after you realize he's Cecil's brother. The story would need to be quite different than it really was for Golbez to be the final boss. I dunno, it may have been cool... it was strange how the player gets so angry at Golbez for obvious reasons, but you never get to fight him. Whooping Golbez's ass would have been great I must admit.

Wouldn't change the story too much. If you tweak here or change there, then you might end up having to alter everything.

Dialogue. Not just the sometimes awkward translation, but sometimes characters would oftentime just telegraph everything you needed to know.

I would make small changes, things like the ability to sort items by type, be able to buy 1-99 of an item (instead of just 1 or 10), to be able to view everyone's equip at once and one-button de-equip.

Couple more things popped up in my head. Two features every RPG needs in my opinion: a difficulty slider (slide to the left and it helps newbies get into RPGs, slide to the right and you'll struggle just to kill Imps), and a "+" game option ala Chrono Trigger. After you beat the game you should able to start a new game with all the items from your old game. Whether the characters should keep their lvls or if equipment should have a lvl requirement is arguable, but I don't think any RPG would hurt from a "+" feature.

This post has been edited by da12ken on 23rd February 2005 23:28

Quote (da12ken @ 23rd February 2005 18:23)

, be able to buy 1-99 of an item (instead of just 1 or 10),

No offense but that existed. you could change the number 10 to any number 2-99. pay more attention.


And is a new game + really nescesary? The game wasn't hard enough to warrent one IMO. Even the "hard type"



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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (MogMaster @ 23rd February 2005 18:37)

No offense but that existed. you could change the number 10 to any number 2-99. pay more attention.


And is a new game + really nescesary? The game wasn't hard enough to warrent one IMO. Even the "hard type"

Whoops forgot about changing the numbers.

"+" wouldn't be just so someone could blow through the game again (although that certainly would be the case), but mostly reward players for playing. Trigger did this well not only because of its relation to the plot (different endings), but also item collecting, as multiple games is the only way to get all the items (i.e. choosing between Prism Dress/Helms). I guess FFIV doesn't fit those criteria since it's linear and every item can be duplicated, but it couldn't hurt to have a "+" option.

Quote (Brad @ 23rd February 2005 18:16)

As far as specific plot changes... I thought Rydia could have been much more interesting with a little more expansion on her. I think the visit to the monster world in the Underground could have been an interesting moment.

You mean like when you did?

Quote (da12ken @ 23rd February 2005 18:23)

I would make small changes, things like the ability to sort items by type, be able to buy 1-99 of an item (instead of just 1 or 10)

You mean like how you could?

Quote (Brad @ 23rd February 2005 18:16)

Instead of something specifically on the plot itself, I would say a better translated dialogue.  The minute grammatical mistakes like forgetting articles and what not didn't really bother me, but Cecil yelling "Oh my!" and stuff like that drew away from his character I thought... and there's quite a few moments like that in the dialogue.

Yeah, because intentional changes due to an actual list of things they needed to censor is so much worse than the Engrish that plagued FFVII and FFT.

Quote (da12ken @ 23rd February 2005 18:23)

Dialogue. Not just the sometimes awkward translation, but sometimes characters would oftentime just telegraph everything you needed to know.

The telegraphing thing wasn't as much of a problem in IV for me becasue it isn't as bad as the other FFs/RPGs.

Quote (Brad @ 23rd February 2005 18:16)

I think a little more focus on all the characters would have been nice actually.  Don't get me wrong, I loved the characters and their issues, but it could have been even better.

The story wasn't about the dozen or so people you meet along your way, it was about Cecil. You see the story through Cecil's eyes, and you end up knowing what he knows. In real life, you know your friends' basic information, but you don't get to know EVERYTHING about them, which is something people take for granted with modern RPGs.

Quote (da12ken @ 23rd February 2005 18:23)

to be able to view everyone's equip at once and one-button de-equip.

It interferes with the way the item system was. You drop all your books and papers into your bookbag, it will be a big mess. You organize it, and you'll get more room out of it. A one-button dequip would mess it up (especially when your inventory is full).

Quote (da12ken @ 23rd February 2005 18:23)

Two features every RPG needs in my opinion: a difficulty slider

No RPG should EVER have that. That would be so problematic. Alundra 2 had that, and they managed to minimize the problems that would be associated with having a slider, but it still blew.

Quote (da12ken @ 23rd February 2005 18:23)

and a "+" game option ala Chrono Trigger.

It wasn't all that great on CT, so why should they put that on a game it would be detrimental to?

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

I think I'd maybe make the magic system more customizable.

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If something were to happen to me, all the world's women would grieve!
- Edgar

Nothing beats the music of thousands of voices screaming in unison!
- Kefka

Lover of all FFs, especially IV, VI, VII, IX, and X. (except for II and X-2)

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 24th February 2005 00:20)

Quote (da12ken @ 23rd February 2005 18:23)

I would make small changes, things like the ability to sort items by type, be able to buy 1-99 of an item (instead of just 1 or 10)

You mean like how you could?

No, you couldn't. In FFIV, you could only buy 1 or 10 of the same item at a time. He wasn't saying that you couldn't have 99 of an item, just that you couldn't buy them that way. Which does get rather annoying...

Moderator Edit

Don't double-post at the forums, it's against the forum rules. Instead, edit the first post to include the text of the second.

This post has been edited by Neal on 26th February 2005 16:58

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If something were to happen to me, all the world's women would grieve!
- Edgar

Nothing beats the music of thousands of voices screaming in unison!
- Kefka

Lover of all FFs, especially IV, VI, VII, IX, and X. (except for II and X-2)

You could buy 99 items in FF4. You just have to move the cursor over to 10 and push the directional key up or down, and it would move up or down by one. It would loop, too, so you could move it down 10 times to get to 99.



This post has been edited by Neal on 26th February 2005 17:02

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me