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No, I'm not asking who the most powerful character is. Why? Besides the fact that it's been done already, every character would be mentioned, and most likely for reasons other than real effectiveness in battle. The answers never even narrow the margin to a few select characters, unless it's for popularity reasons. So there's no point in asking such a question. Why is this the case? I'm making this thread to explain why it's impossible to find the real answer to how all the characters rank in relation to each other regarding battle effectiveness, and why we can't determine a best character.

SilverMaduin recently made a thread asking what we find as being the most functional team. Before that can decisively be determined to any degree of regularity without the foggy subjectiveness that brings the issue back down to a popularity contest, it would first be required that we know who the best characters are. After that it would be a matter of assembling those characters in such a way as to create the best working system, which would maximize power output and provide the best defense.

It's a common suggestion that every character is equal, and that you can maximize each character to be equally effective in battle. Do you really think that every character is equal, given the fact that there are so many variations in abilities and statistics? It would be nearly impossible for this to truly be the case. Yet it seems to be so. Why? All of the characters hit a universal limiter. The FFVI battle engine imposes too many number caps that get in the way, like max damage per hit (9999), defense (255) and battle power (255) among other figures. Characters hit the ceiling too quickly to reveal real power output and to a degree defense advantages. All we have to rely on when discussing these matters are the usefulness of special abilities and how well characters exploit insanely powerful relic combinations late in the game.

Then there's another problem. In online games everyone finds the best units/characters/cars/whatever to use because due to the highly competitive nature of games online, if you don't use the best stuff you're dead. People are out to prove themselves to others and don't want to be seen as noobs. Computer opponents like those in FFVI are not that competitive, and if they were people would give up on playing rather than put all their effort into being victorious, because they most likely don't have a very high desire to prove themselves to inanimate objects. Not only are FFVI enemies not competitive, they're excessively easy. Therefore any character would be effective against the enemies of the game because they die so easily. There's no need to discover which characters are stronger over others. That competitive gameplay is not present to warrant exposing those advantages.

Yet another problem? Yep, and this one is caused by the level system. There's the ever present favoritism that's based on how much you use characters. When you are given the choice to use certain characters and leave others behind, those left behind quickly become inferior to the ones you use. This makes for a very unbalanced playing field when attempting to make the determination of who's the best. If you do run into battles you have a very hard time defeating, you would have no choice but to use the characters you're already using because they're so much stronger than the ones you're not using. The characters you use most are the best characters in the game, but only because you're using them.

One method that can be used to get an idea of who's the best is to look at how the characters perform before they max out the numbers. But this method does have it's faults, which I'll explain in a little bit. You can't deny that near the beginning of the game Edgar is more effective than Locke and Terra, no matter how much you may like the two latter characters. It also is clear (at least until any arguments are presented) that throughout most of the WoB Gau is more powerful than the other characters. If this seems too bold of a statement, perhaps it would be more safe to say that he is at least more effective in battle than Celes, Terra, Strago and Relm. The point is that we can draw clear and decisive conclusions. Once in the WoR those differences in power fade away, and who the best character is becomes unclear. Weaker characters like Terra and Relm catch up to the characters who've already maxed out like Gau and Sabin, usually by means of super powered weapons, relics and armor. These items change everything completely to the point where it's no longer accurate to look at how these characters performed earlier in the game.

So in conclusion, the only way we could ever know who the best characters are is to remove the game's universal power limiter, make all characters level up equally and give the game a big boost in competitive play, the kind that only comes from online play. If there was online play with a ranking system and thousands of players, you would notice that the top ranking players would generally favor certain characters over others and use similar character parties. Then Square would have to release patches to make the characters more even and to eliminate cheap exploits. This kind of sophistication is not needed in a game that's not real serious about the battles. Therefore everything works and all characters are good in the game we all love, Final Fantasy VI.

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FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

Wow dude, I love you, but I'm not gonna read all that. I got past the first three sentences and my cerebrum came to a screecing halt and said, "I'm going to shut down the linguistics section if you don't stop reading, that's way too much, fuck it." However I got the basic message. I agree, we can all make gods with the illumina/atma weapon combo with an offering on tap. Anyone can cast vanish/x-zone, and everyone can eventually learn the ultima/gem box/fast spell trio kit. I love chicken fettecini alfredo pizza.

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At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

Characters are...broken. That's right. However, a few points:

The Merit Award can be only reasonably gotten when you have the Snow Muffler. That's pretty late in the WoR. Regardless, the Merit Award still takes a place in your inventory where a Hero Ring and the Marvel Shoes coudl be. Equipment does matter.

The Genji Glove/Offering is only so hot because it can inflict eight hits, thus braking the damage cap. This only becomes a real factor when it breaks the 20000 cap, which it will only do on:

A lucky 4x Fixed Dice roll
A pretty beat-up Locke with the Valiantknife
Obscene levels

The latter shouldn't be an issue. Yes, characters are godly at lvl. 99 that's not too surprising. We should look at characters at normal levels. Assuming lvl. 35 when you get the Offering, You'll be doing about 800 a hit with Sabin. 8 x 800 = 6400. That can be defeated by Bum Rush and two Earrings. The Illumina actually will do LESS overall damage with the Offering (no MP-criticals, no random Pearl), and the infamous Valiantknife/Atma Weapon combo will usually do more damage with the Atlas Armlet instead of the Genji Glove and Atma Weapon, not to mention Locke's defenses are really aided by that shield.

A comparison.

Cyan: His weapons suck. They do nothing and will never be more powerful then his Dispatch attack. He gains no stat boosts. The only weapon which can do something he can't do with Dispatch are Tempest and Scimitar. Scimitar's random slicing can't be relied on, and a Wind Slash, coming from Cyan, is too weak to bother with (unless in weak random encounters and the IAF sequence). His armor does nothing for him. He can't equip the Gaia Gear on the Floating Continent and can't equip ANYTHING fancy. His saving grace, if you will, is the Force set-up. He becomes a little dodgey, but not anywhere near, for instance, Celes and his Defenses SUCK in this set-up.

Mog: His weapons suck...in the WoB. The Trident is a good Ing-slayer with the DragoonBoots behind them, but that's it. Mog's Dances are devastating the WoB. El Nino is the strongest Water-elemental MT attack in the game. Land Slide is stronger then Flare in every aspect. Sun Bath beats Cure2, and he joins your party at 5 levels then you're currently on. Though uncontrollable, he has more damage potential then everybody but Gau. In the WoR, his Dances become weaker, but also obsolete as you can set him up with 255 Defense (absorbs Ice, 50 % damage from Fire) and a Dragoon set-up. Did I mention that Mog is still far better as a back-up healer then Cyan is?

My point: Mog is better then Cyan is. Pronto.

The strongest character? We'll never reach a concensus, that's for sure. But it's certainly possible to evaluate characters for what they are.

MeepeLard did a very nice job with a guide of his.

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/f...sy_iii_char.txt

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 28th December 2004 11:47

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Please nerf Sabin. He is too strong.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Okay, i90, you've made your point. The closer the characters are to lvl 99, the less difference there is between them. That's a fact.

Using item's like MeritAward, Offering, GemBox also makes them pretty similiar.

But that's not the point of who the strongest character is.

Which is more powerful? The Quadra Slice, or the Bum Rush?

Mog's Dances or Gau's Rages?

Lore or Sketch?

Magic or Tools?

Each character has their strong and weak points, as well as strong and weak times (someone once said, can't remember who, that his Cyan went from hero to zero in WoR).

The functionality, usefulness and power of the characters depends on how and how much you play them, what you equip on them (who gets the magic reflective armor and who the ultra-haste shoes? {or whatever})

This, of course, comes down to popularity and personal favoritism, because all the chars have the same "infinite" potential.

The question is not "Who is most powerful/useful ?" but "Who do you find most powerful/useful?"

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

SilverMaduin, you missed the point of his point entirely.

The point is that through massive testing using numerous individuals bent on defeating one another, personal favortism becomes non-existent and the only thing that matters is having that slight edge on the next person.

Favortism and inherent bias has nothing to do with competition. The winner is the winner, period.

The point of his post is to eliminate popularity and personal favoritism, because there is an inherent axiom (one proved by Djibriel) that not all characters are equal.

Cheers.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Well, I did read all of i90s verbage. I think there are several things one must consider before we can begin to address the issue of which one character is the most powerful.

1) one must first determine what one means by powerful? are we talking about who can do the most damage in a single turn? The answer is it depends on the character, their stats, their level, their equipment and the biggie....the formation that they are fighting. Are we designating Most Powerful to be he/she with both the best Defensive/MBlock + Offensive power? Then there are two issues to consider: a) there are only a handful of characters who can obtain the highest/optimal/best Def/Off position in the game by means of stats and equipment (incl Relics). b) level.

2) character level and point in the game go hand in hand. Are we talking about their Intro level? As for starting stats, Umaro has the best stats. But a) he cannot increase his stats and b) he is acquired very late in the WOR. Of the characters which can increase their stats via Esper bonuses, Gau wins hands down. Or do we compare Power levels only at L99. The power differences are much less noticeable at L99 and that brings us to one of the defining traits of each character....

3) Or are we talking about the character who has the best Special attack (Morph, SwordTech, Blitz, etc)? since most other things are essentially equal...hp/mp max, spell repertoire, BP max, and max damage (yes max damage, since everyone except Umaro can cast Ultima and hit all targets; and Umaro has Storm). Immediately, one can see that the formation which you are attacking matters here as well. Is Quasar better than BumRush in every situation? Does MagicPower matter? Does the ability to cast BigGuard and Pearl Wind every round add to one's Power? There are a couple scenarios when Relm can Control a monster and use that monster's special attack to kill every enemy on the screen in one turn. That cant be said of every character.

4) What point in the game are we talking about? At the beginning of the game, Gau has his moments, some bad and some good. But if you spend some time on the Veldt, he becomes a powerhouse' especially in the WOB where Gau will have access to L3 spells long before anyone else. This goes hand in hand with the issue, that someone brought up before about how much time you spend with a character. Some of the character's Special Skills require additional time to develop, notably Rages, Lores, Morph and Throw (to gather powerful throwable items). Similarly, at different areas of the game, different characters have some distinct advantages. eg. Sabin in the Cave to the Sealed Gate, equipped with 1 or 2 Kaisers he does awesome damage to just about every critter in there; whereas other characters do not have access to a Holy attack at all yet. And there are many other examples.

Position in the game matters, unless we are talking about Most Powerful (defined in some way) at every point in the game. Therefore, Most Powerful really means Most Powerful on average in the most places in the game.

5) What kind of game are we talking about? LLG? NMG? No Economizer game? This is crucial.

I think there is a different single Most Powerful character answer to each one of these questions. But we must first agree which question we are asking.

This post has been edited by Detah on 29th December 2004 16:02

I think most powerful would probably be defined as the character's usefulness throughout the whole game. However, this does eliminate some characters, so it would be better to say how useful they are after they join your party. Also when you consider best character, you shouldn't include things like merit award, gem box and econimizer. Those just throw everything out of balance.

Basically Terra and Celes become nothing special once you get espers. Maybe their magic power is higher, so their spells may do slightly more, and at that early in the game the amount of damage would be hard to even notice. Although magic can be useful if you play the weaknesses of opponents. But, Ultima makes every other attack magic pretty much useless with an econimzer.

If you look at defense, anyone can become an imp and have 255 defense (same for offense I suppose as well). Although, you can't use any magic except imp, but if you equip strength increasing espers each level your imp will become pretty powerful. Throw on the offering, and bingo instant tank. Not including the imp, you have mog, gau and umaro who can all use the snow muffler. Massive defense alone with that armor (hell, it's all umaro has).

Battle power, well, who can equip Atma Weapon, Ragnarok, Illumina? These weapons have the highest battle power, and in Ragnarok/Illumina case nice bonuses as well. The characters that equip these become powerful enough. But, at higher levels, you'll do enough with a weapon of slightly less power anyway. A weapon that probably everyone has at least one of.

It would have to come down to special abilities in my opinion, in which case I would have to say Edgar or Sabin. Edgar's autocrossbow/flash finishes almost every multi enemy battle in the WoB, and the chainsaw every single encounter. Plus, you don't have to worry about elemental resistance/absorb, or keeping your MP high enough. Sabin has his blitzes, basically the same effect has Edgar's tools. And both of these abilities increase with their level so as you move into the WoR they just get stronger.

But, that's just me.

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This is my world: (Got my second chapter up, 3rd Chapter about 80% complete)
http://www3.sympatico.ca/daniel876/homepage.html

Several people now have brought up the Merit Award in determining a Most Powerful character. I can tell you this is total nonsense. If you are wasting a Relic slot on the Merit Award to get either high BP, or high Def or high MBlock or just to equip a weapon at all, then that character is definitely NOT the Most Powerful.

The two Relic slots should be devoted to two of the top 7 Relics (Gem Box, Offering, Economizer, Marvel Shoes, Ribbon, White Cape, Hero Ring) in the game. If they are not devoted to 2 of the top 7 Relic slots, then any other character who does equip them will be more powerful. Gem Box/Economizer, Genji Glove/Offering, Marvel Shoes/Ribbon, Ribbon/ Hero Ring are all superior to Merit Award/Gem Box, or Merit Award/Offering, etc, because at least 4 other characters will have maxed BP, DEF and MBlock WITHOUT the Merit Award! This isnt rocket science folks.

This post has been edited by Detah on 29th December 2004 16:12

You people talk to much.
I have found from playing the game (over and over again), that some characters start off very strong but aren't as good later on when the battles get harder. The best example of this, most likely (don't kill me!) is Edgar. At first, his tools are some of the strongest things you had. But later on, they're out-power (???) by some of the other skills, like blitz.
There is also the little thing of how much time and efert is required to gain the 'nest level' for the skill. Some are very easy, like life they come with a certan level, or if you simply buy them. But others, like rage, you have to go looking for them spasificly.
OK, I'm done... No one kill me.

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"If you believe you can tell me what to think, I believe I can tell you where to go." -unknown
Long live the crazy old man!
Sorry, I can't spell, so don't bother me about it, kay?
The world would be a better place without homophobics...

You could always consider, as well, who would win in a "real life fight". No statistics, no stat-enhancing relics, everything being reliant on their inherant skills and basic weaponry/armor. But that;s only if you aren't trying to figure it out for gaming purposes.

On the other hand, it can be noted every character has their use; every character has a "following" that prefers them over all others. In that regard, all of them are about as equal as if they were all maxed out... the question becomes obsolete. It really just comes down to personal preferance, in the end.

That's my two cents.

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And behold, I saw a Pale Gaming System, and the name of he who rode it was Squaresoft, and Enix followed him.

In reply to Detah:

That's not really true. There are three characters that you'll want to consider equipping a Merit Award on. These characters are Gau, Gogo and Sabin. Gau lacks offense in the late WoR and Gogo/Sabin lack Defense: Red Jacket is very poor, and the Tao Robe, Gogo's strongest piece of armor he can equip normally, is even worse.

On Sabin, I'll say that your theory goes. While the Merit Award can really help his Defense and he can now put his high Vigor to much better use (Wing Edge, Pearl Lance, Sniper, all far superior to the Tiger Fangs), Sabin will be generally better with a Hero Ring and Marvel Shoes.

Gogo's defenses are simply so low that a Genji Armor over the Tao Robe will be better to his Defense then Marvel Shoes/Guard Rings will. The Merit Award allows Wind God Gogo if you want him to be one, you can switch to a Wing Edge and put him in the Back Row, or equip Fixed Dice. There are a LOT of options. Gogo with the Merit Award is superior to Gogo without it, no matter what Relics you put on the latter. And I dare say that this Gogo will help you better then most characters which are stuffed with two our of The Glorious Seven.

Gau. 128 Defense without the Merit Award, ability to absorb all elements at your command, immune to all status ailment you want him to be immune to. The only thing that cripples him is that fact he's still running around with Empty hands. Genji Glove/Merit Award and two Pearl Rods, Snipers, etc. will make Gau into a monster. When the right weapons are selected against the proper enemy, Gau kills.

Example. Gau, two Pearl Rods, Catscratch, both triggered Pearl: about 9500 damage in total.

At level 3.

For a character such as Gau, most of the Relics you hold in high regard will do very little. People will put the Gem Box on the female mages, the Offering on Setzer or Locke, the Economizer will have little effect as you'll want to use Rage anyway (why bother bringing Gau if you don't?), Gau doesn't need a Ribbon because, should status protection be important, you could Rage Telstar or Magic Urn to have full-scale status protection, Gau will never reach a high volume of Mblock, making the White Cape pretty useless (The White Cape should only be used to reach 128 Mblock). Gau could make use of the Marvel Shoes and the Hero Ring, sure, but he'll still be superior to most character who have these two Relics.

Point is: Just because somebody can gain so much be giving up one Relic slot, that doesn't mean you can write them off.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

You are missing the point. Not only am I right, but you have put your finger on the exact people who are definitely NOT the Most Powerful for that exact reason.

Let's use your examples. Gau, Gogo, and Sabin. Give them Weapon W, Armor X, Helmet Y and Shield Z, Relic A and Merit Award. Where Weapon W, Armor X, Helmet Y and Shield Z are the best available for someone with the Merit Award. My point is that someone like say Celes who can equip just about everything in the game is more powerful than that optimally equipped Merit Award-wearer.

Look,
Celes (9 natural)
50 Illuimina
40 Paladin Shield
0 Red Cap
30 Force Armor
0 Gem Box
0 Economizer
---
129% MBlock
L99
9999 HP with no Esper HP level up bonuses, so all Esper bonuses can be applied to stats.
Absorbs or is immune to every element in the game.
Stands in the back row received less damage on defense and still does same damage from back row on offense.
Alternatively this user could equip just the Offering and hit you first round for 39,996 dam and still have a free Relic slot. The Gau, Gogo, Sabin characters are all immediately disadvantaged because of the used Relic slot to make up their poor defensive abilities. Celes' defense is maxed out and did not use a Relic slot to do it. I could just as easily have put a Ribbon in my second slot and compare it to Gau, Gogo, and Sabin and Celes is still better off than they. Why is this so hard to accept? Someone who needs to use a Relic slot to max out Defense/MBlock is inferior to someone who doesnt need to.

Relics end up being the deciding factor and there are several Relics which are quite powerful, Offering, Economizer and Gembox are just 3 examples. Not to mention the fact that Gogo has such abyssmal initial stats (which are locked; other than equipment) that there is no way any equipment could let him compete with a L99 stat optimized character. So one should never bring Gogo into the discussion of Most Powerful; that is laughable.

I don't agree with you, so I must have missed your point.

You are talking about a level 99 character who personally hogs all the ultimate equipment by herself. And yes, should Gau/Sabin choose this particular strategy to become invincible, they will not do as good a job as Celes does.

But you are assuming a level 99 character, at which point ONLY the amount of hits count because everything breaks the damage cap.

With Defense, I take you mean Mblock? Because with this set-up, Celes' Defense is pretty poor. Not that it will be a factor *at all* with 128 % Mblock, mind you.

Your statistics logic does not work. Stamina is near useless. Even with 128 Speed, a character will not take two turns where a non-boosted Strago takes one, so it only matters when you're fighting with just her, which you're not likely doing. Vigor matters very little in the actual damage. The only really significant stat which has great feedback in the game is Magic Power, and Gogo's equip (Magus Rod + 7, Pally Shield + 7, Magus Hat + 5, Tao Robe + 5) more then makes up for that. Yes, I'm feeding him ultimate equipment here, but I could remove the Paladin Shld and give him a GG and Enhancer and it's okay).

A hypothetical Gogo could lose the Economizer for a Merit Award and perform 9 x 9999 damage with Ultima, Quick and Quadra Slice (which is barrier-piercing and doesn't need the Offering which can thus be happily passed to those who need it), and have 128 Mblock. Only in the final battle will the loss of the Economizer will be more then a post-battle 'need' to refill MP, and at level 99 and 128 Mblock, one turn to cast Osmose is no issue whatsoever.

I've pointed out how most of your seven Relics are not worth dismissal of Merit Award-boosted characters. The Marvel Shoes will do little, also. Safe on a character with 128 Mblock is almost completely useless. Regen is as well; with these set-ups, you're either dodging or really taking hits (Ultima, GrandTrain, Shimsham, etc) after which you'll probably get in a Cure3 for full restoration anyway. Haste is only an issue when you're having a party of one character, and Shell...Shell helps against Goner, and that's about it, as all other attacks which are actually hitting you are either being absorbed/nulled or are barrier-piercing in the first place.

Finally, one thing. I respect your opinions and look forward to hearing them; a good discussion is a something I enjoy. However, people who say "Not only am I right, your opinions are laughable" are not pleasant people to have a discussion with.

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 30th December 2004 21:33

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Quote (Detah)

1) one must first determine what one means by powerful? are we talking about who can do the most damage in a single turn? The answer is it depends on the character, their stats, their level, their equipment and the biggie....the formation that they are fighting. Are we designating Most Powerful to be he/she with both the best Defensive/MBlock + Offensive power? Then there are two issues to consider: a) there are only a handful of characters who can obtain the highest/optimal/best Def/Off position in the game by means of stats and equipment (incl Relics). level.

Hmmm, that's a tough question. As you've shown Detah there are many different ways of looking at it. I'll approach the question from two different angles.

Going back to the example of online play, competitors would obviously have their characters at level 99. It would be all about maxing out the characters to their highest potentials. In an ideal version of this online play the number caps would also be lifted (though doing more than 9999 damage wouldn't matter because that's all characters could have anyway, unless character HP was adjusted to the monster HP scale). The most important factor for characters in this environment would be defense and evasion. They can't attack if they're dead, so the ability to stay alive would be the determining factor in a team vs team battle. Imagine an online battle where one team only has two characters left and has to spend turns casting Life 2, whereas the other team still has all four characters. The team with four just about seals the victory. This scenario has more to do with assembling the best team, but still shows the importance for individual characters to stay alive. Being effective in battle also means to carry the weight of the party.

In the real version of FFVI as we know it, I think a character being consistantly effective in battle throughout the game is the most desirable trait. You want your favorite character to be kicking pretty good [butt] all of the time, not just some of the time, or worse... right at the end. Heros in TV shows and comics are always stronger than the sidekicks. If they wern't, they wouldn't impress anyone.

Don't you wish someone could/would remove the number caps so we could see what the characters are really capable of? It would be fun to have a competition to see who can make a character do the most damage in one hit. Big numbers are fun. Kefka should have at least 500,000 HP. That way you could really let loose on him and have him survive for a while, perhaps while even threatening your party.

This post has been edited by i90east on 31st December 2004 20:50

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FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

My brains are hurting of all those things... Anyway ,aren't all characters good if you train them well and if you give them the wright equipment

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They may be monsters, but they're sea monsters. What're they gonna do? Flop around on deck and suffocate at us threateningly?

Perhaps I should have began with my definition of Most Powerful. As I stated before we must be clear about what Most Powerful is. I think Most Powerful must be
1) determined by the primary statistics in the game: MBLock%, total damage potential, elemental immunity/absorption, variety of attack types, character stats, and level.
2) must be able to fight effectively versus every monste/formation in the game. This effectiveness should include theoretical combat between other characters. (eg. Sabin, Leo, etc) Theoretical one-on-one combat is basis for my
description and comparison between Celes and Gau. When comparing characters, one must compare level X to level X, within the confines of the game, of course. It is not possible to have Mog at L6, so Celes L6 fighting Mog L6 isnt possible in the game. However, it would be perfectly fine to pit L9 Mog vs L9 Celes.
3) performs, on average, the best throughout the game. That is, he/she performs on average the best at every level and scenario in the game.

In determining Most Powerful character, I am NOT talking about JUST
comparing initial stats, level, commands, equip, etc. This would be absurd. One could pretty easily argue that Gau is better than just about everyone during their first appearance with initial commands, level, equip, spells, etc. I am also not talking about the Most Powerful Party.

Quote

You are talking about a level 99 character who personally hogs all the ultimate equipment by herself. And yes, should Gau/Sabin choose this particular strategy to become invincible, they will not do as good a job as Celes does.

I was in my comparison talking about a L99 character, yes. But as I pointed out, these things must be considered on average.

As I stated above, there is no reason why Gau or Sabin could not also wield an Illumina, however, they must wear the Merit Award to accomplish this.
In my previous post, I was talking about a comparison, character versus character, where any character could wear optimal equipment, regardless of `he finite number of that equipment in the game. ie. when setting up your 'most powerful' character' for simulated combat, you could equip the Paladin Shield and so could your opponent. Limited only by the number that naturally occur in the game, of course. ie. you could not equip 1 Genji Glove + 2 Illuminas, as that is not possible in an unhacked game.

I was simply stating that Celes can wear all the best equipment in the game WITHOUT the Merit Award. And therefore has a free Relic slot open. Lets assume that everyone starts with the same stats and level. Now if both characters equip all the same (best) equipment in the game, then the only difference between them is Relics and their Special Command. While I would have a hard time arguing that Celes' Runic is better than Sabin's Blitz, it is true that once both characters have all the spells in the game, that the Blitz-to-Runic advantage is gone. So the extra Relic slot makes for a huge advantage throughout most of the game.

Quote

But you are assuming a level 99 character, at which point ONLY the amount of hits count because everything breaks the damage cap.

I assume you mean that 'everything hits the damage cap'. Then I agree. As I stated before, as characters approach L99, the power level between them converges. Then such things as equipment, starting stats, and Relics make the difference. That was my point. I agree that number of hits matters. That is why I pointed out that diversity of attack types and number of enemy targets matters....when determining max damage. But number of hits in an idea situation where # of targets is maxed and you cast Ultima/Ultima is not always going to occur. One must be prepared for any enemy and # of enemies.

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Your statistics logic does not work. Stamina is near useless. Even with 128 Speed, a character will not take two turns where a non-boosted Strago takes one8 so it only matters when you(;re fighting with just her, which you're not likely doing. Vigor matters very little in the actual damage. The only really significant stat which has great feedback in the game is Magic Power, and Gogo's equip (Magus Rod + 7, Pally Shield + 7, Magus Hat + 5, Tao Robe + 5) more then makes up for that. Yes, I'm feeding him ultimate equipment here, but I could remove the Paladin Shld and give him a GG and Enhancer and it's okay).

A hypothetical Gogo could lose the Economizer for a Merit Award and perform 9 x 9999 damage with Ultima, Quick and Quadra Slice (which is barrier-piercing and doesn't need the Offering which can thus be happily passed to those who need it), and have 128 Mblock. Only in the final battle will the loss of the Economizer will be more then a post-battle 'need' to refill MP, and at level 99 and 128 Mblock, one turn to cast Osmose is no issue whatsoever.

Gogo cannot equip an Esper. Therefore he/she/it cannot derive stat bonuses from them. Therefore he/she/it is condemned to starting stats plus stat-raising equip. Celes has higher starting stats than Gogo, can gain almost the max stat gains from Espers (+188 pts), and on top of it all can then equip the same or better stat-raising equipment that he/she/it can and most certainly have better stats. So I think the argument that Gogo can 'compete' stats-wise with the other 13 playable characters is ridiculous.

* Ultima/Quick/QuadraSlice is not reserved for just Gogo. Cyan can do this also. But neither of them are even close for vying for Most Powerful character in the game. If this were a one-on-one fight with characters, then this stunt will only do 5 hits. Offering + GenjiGlove would be superior. And Gogo/Gau/Sabin equipped with Merit Award cannot accomplish this.
* Using Quick in any scenario is not a single turn. It is two turns. Not only is there a pause, but the other character can use the same strategy. And in the case of Gau, Sabin or Gogo using the Merit Award to advance their MBlock/Defense, they will only be able to perform that stunt a couple times at most, and then their MP will be gone. Whereas, Celes, who has both Relic slots free can have GemBox AND Economizer equipped and utilize the Ultima/Ultima/Quick/Ultima/Ultima trick essentially to infinity. Then the only limiting factor is how fast you can key in the commands into the controller.

To me it is preposterous to state that Gogo is superior to Celes. Unless you level up Gogo to L99 and leave Celes at L6, I just can't see this happening. If you assume they are the same level when fighting, and have access to the same equipment, then there is no way Gogo can beat Celes in one-on-one combat. I just dont see it. Similarly, I do not see it for Sabin or Gau.

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I've pointed out how most of your seven Relics are not worth dismissal of Merit Award-boosted characters. The Marvel Shoes will do little, also. Safe on a character with 128 Mblock is almost completely useless. Regen is as well; with these set-ups, you're either dodging or really taking hits (Ultima, GrandTrain, Shimsham, etc) after which you'll probably get in a Cure3 for full restoration anyway. Haste is only an issue when you're having a party of one character, and Shell...Shell helps against Goner, and that's about it, as all other attacks which are actually hitting you are either being absorbed/nulled or are barrier-piercing in the first place.

Since we are NOT talking about a party versus party battle, Regen+Haste is incredibly beneficial. As far as I know, the benefits of Shell are still applied to damage caused by unblockable magic attacks, like AirBlade. Same with Safe. So just because I have 129% MBlock, I wouldnt dis the value of the Marvel Shoes' Safe and Shell.

I never stated that your opinions were laughable. I would not do that to anyone. If I didnt care about your opinions, I would never reply to you.

But I believe that your proposition that Gogo/Sabin/Gau equipped with Merit Award is/are superior to Celes is pretty far-fetched. I stated reasons, and even statistics, commands and equipment setups which make those 3 one-on-one combats a sinch for Celes. I have not heard any response yet that challenges those scenarios that I have set up.

I agree it would be interesting to remove the damage cap, 9999, to see who can dish out the most damage. But for purposes of this thread, I am only concerned with the Most Powerful character within the confines of the unhacked FF6 game. The important thing to remember with these comparisons is a) in the case of character vs character, to only compare same level with same level, at each level that character can use Esper bonuses to their best advantage a variety of attack types are greatly beneficial as your enemy can be any formation in the game, including Final Fight Kefka, or 2 Bontaurs, or 1 Celes. and c) all equipment in the game is available for outfitting your brute. and d) average power level throughout the game matters. It is absurd to say 'character Z is Most Powerful because during event X scene Y with character Z at L16 is better than character W'. For most of the characters in the game (Id say 8 of them) , one could easily construct a scenario where one character is better than another at a certain level.

This post has been edited by Detah on 2nd January 2005 03:54

I could it should be interesting to see how Gogo and Celes stack up to eachother. I'll be assuming that you get Gogo ASAP once you have the Falcon and don't do anything special to benefit either of the two, just things everybody would do in a normal game. Level 25 seems like a nice level to start with.

Once you have collected Gogo, you can use his Throw (provided you saved Shadow, Gogo can't Throw if Shadow's dead) to nail Fire, Ice, Lightning, Poison, Earth and Pearl damage. Especially against bosses, this ensures that Gogo has the upper hand in damage. These are the equipment choices easily available at this point:

Gogo:
Magus Rod
Ice Shld
Circlet
Tao Robe

Celes:
Enhancer
Thunder Shld
Mystery Veil
Minerva

Shadow Edge/Haste renders Gogo invincible against Dirt Dragon, Falchion can be traded for Flame Shld which can be traded for Ice Shld at the Colloseum, Czarina Gown can become a Minerva.

Because even if you didn't recruit Sabin with Celes alone he's still the easiest find of all, I'll assume that you have saved him by now and have thought him Bum Rush. Gogo can now do insane non-elemental damage.

Recruiting Cyan is a part where Celes stacks up against Gogo. No skill provides superior MT damage and with Celes' boosted Magic Power, nailing a weakness can put these characters side by side.

We follow Cyan's advise and find Gau. We Leap the monsters we've encountered thus far and enter the Cave. The first SrBehemoth boss here is suspectable to stop. Both Celes and Gogo can easily cast the Stop spell, and a thrown Fire Rod rivals with Celes' Fire2 (provided you did some heavy boosting). The second can be killed with a Life spell and should not be bothered with.

At this point, obtaining a Merit Award can be even done by a level 3 character, so I'll put it on Gogo. The Marvel Shoes, also obtainable, is put on Celes. Fighting Doom Gaze, while daring, can be done. Celes will be doing constant 9999 with breaking Pearl Rods. Gogo, with two Pearl Rods in his hands and the Merit Award, will be superior. Two times, he'll have a 25 % shot at casting the Pearl spell, and if he did a Catscratch the Pearl spell will be four times as strong, guaranteeing a 9999. I'm not sure what the odds are or what the top damage is Gogo can do, but in general, Gogo will do more damage. Flare for Celes.

Gogo now functions as a Wind God, doing obscene amounts of MT damage. Celes will gain nothing from the next logical dungeon, Owzer's Mansion, so in an attempt to even out I'll run through Narshe and obtain Tritoch. Level 3's for Celes and Gogo.

Passing through Owzer's Mansion, the enemies pose little threat and both Gogo and Celes easily blast through. Fire3 and a thrown Pearl Rod both should inflict 9999 damage here, and both are protected by a Thunder Shld. A tie.

We pick up Strago and let him learn some of the WoR Lores (Rippler, Aero, Sour Mouth, and if you didn't earlier, Dischord, Step Mine and Blow Fish).

We enter the Ancient Castle underground. All the enemies here have inherent reflect and have insane magic defense. Gogo's pearl-elemental physicals and non-reflectable instant death attacks (Snare, for instance)kill everything while Celes is worthless. Gogo instantly takes out KatanaSoul while Celes can cast Muddle and hope for the best. Provided you have a piece of Imp equipment, the Blue Drgn is no threat to either: if you don't, then Gogo is invincible where Celes takes hits.

Cyan's Dream. Gogo can take advantage of the Dream Stooges Float status with Sniper, having a 50 % shot at triple damage from the back row with his physicals. With Stray Cat, that ensures about 3500 on a normal hit and 9999 on a boosted one. Can be doubled with GG. Celes can only target one at a time, hitting it for 9999.

We find Locke, Celes obtains 128 Mblock, Gogo obtains 128 Mblock, and where Celes has an extra Relic slot, Gogo has ten extra commands at his disposal.

To be honest, I think you get the point I want to make (although you may not agree with it).

one-on-one, you can hardly argue. One Ultima kills a character, hands down, be it from Gogo or from Celes. Quick/Life 3/Air Anchor ensures defeat. In raw power, Quadra Slam will win. But it doesn't matter as the first one to act wins, no matter what equipment or stats the characters have.

To end my note, I do believe that Celes defeats both Sabin and Gau in the end.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Sabin is the best! Edgar's my fav, but Sabin just kills it!

according to i90's post earlier, in a world where there all level 99.
every character has the potential to kill another in a single hit. So what is the deciding factor?
Speed.
In a 99 on 99 battle the fastest would win.

So from my understanding that would make it locke. With esper enhancements and the genji/offering.

In the end I say that's kind of lame, it doesn't take much strategy to build a magic tank Celes, or a quick hitting Locke.

a level 99 on 99 sounds to me like "which Roided out wieghtlifer can lift the most"
to be honest at that point, it's all pointless.

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Example. Gau, two Pearl Rods, Catscratch, both triggered Pearl: about 9500 damage in total.

At level 3.

That's sounds much more impressive to me. to compare characters on that level more strategy is involved.

In the end I'd have to say Gau, It's all raw natural power.
That's my two cents after reading the whole thread.

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Man, some people really got into this. I was only capable of reading the first few paragraphs of the long posts because I get ADD and read the next post, but from what I see, it's all a matter of perspective. Some people will take the "equip the character until they are invincible" approach while others use the "base stats" approach.

I once heard that Edgar is awesome at the beginning, but as the game goes on, he sucks. On my game, I've used him the entire time and he's still one of my greatest characters. I'm almost ready to go get Kefka. I've spent a lot of time on Edgar and I think that's the key to a great character.

That's what I believe, anyways.

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Why, hello guys! Haven't been around here in a loooong time!
http://dragcave.net/user/LadyTwi
http://www.backloggery.com/ladytwi

All players have there good points and bad points. but if i had to choose, id say Terra, for her Morph ability and her high magic power

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You Can't Escape...
Nowhere to run...
Nowhere to hide...

When I saw this topic under New Posts this morning and saw the author, I was happy to see i90east was back.

Oh, how cruel of you thread necromancers to get my hopes up.

Celes and Sabin are the strongest in the game IMO, and my most used at endgame.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

I side with the people saying they're all pretty much the same, because of the stat and damage caps at high levels.

Even middle levels they're close, what with item combos making everyone pretty darn overpowered.

after taking the time to get a few snow mufflers mog and gau become great fighters. a mog with the aero lance/dragoon boots/dragon horn combo can deal more damage than an illuminu-equipped celes most of the time and also take alot more damage

This post has been edited by lurch on 4th February 2007 19:52

Everyone has the potential to become a killing machine, so I wouldn't say there's a definite 'most powerful character'. The game isn't too difficult anyway, and any combination of characters is effective.



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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

Im going to tell you a FACT: any one of your characters can be powerful...
It just depends on stats and Espers and how long you leave them on there.

Physically, I'd say it's a toss up between Sabin and Cyan.

Magically, Terra and Celes are evenly matched.

You really can't say that ONE character is the most powerful, because you can customize each character to suit your own needs.

I tend to make Terra the best overall character by making her more physically strong to offset her magical strength. Her equipment (PS1): Illumina, Paladin Shield, Genji Armor, and Genji Helm. Her Relics: Economizer and Hyper Wrist. Her stats are pretty close to being maxed out because of all the esper stat bonuses I gave her. She can actually do more damage than most of the other characters.

Celes, I leave as strictly offensve magic, while Locke is strictly defensive magic. Cyan and Sabin I had them learn all the basic spells and all the buff spells. Edgar, I have as my backup magic user and my tank. Setzer and the rest I rarely use except for multi-party scenarios. But I keep them pretty well levelled and equipped with decent weapons and armor as well as a decent spell set.

This post has been edited by LadyArmageddon on 23rd February 2007 14:28

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Soul wrought of Terra infintum, I am here. I am Heaven's Dark Salvation

Quote (AnarchistDream @ 28th December 2004 09:03)

Anyone can cast vanish/x-zone, and everyone can eventually learn the ultima/gem box/fast spell trio kit.

Vanish and X-Zone don't really work in the Advance FFVI. And Ultima/Quick is pretty late in the game....

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<Insert witty remark here>

Yeah, in VIa you also can't count on 128% MBlock to save your ass from all the physicals. Completely changes the equipment picture, and makes the Snow Muffler very, very valuble. Somebody think fast and get a non-merit award setup for max Evade and max MBlock... especially since Gogo, Gau, and Umaro can't equip the Merit Award anymore.

Just to nitpick, Ultima/Quick/Quadra Slam is NINE hits, not 5. You get to Slam twice after Doublecasting Ultima and Quick. So making the Offering obsolite still requires a Gem Box and 179 MP. Not that that's a lot of MP, just saying an Economizer isn't needed, so make your pick of the 4 remaining big 7 to go with.

I say, determine it by who's the best by who you come to count on the most going through the game naturally.

When I go after bosses, I like to bring Locke for the stealsgin, Stago for Mighty Guard and then as my primary caster, Sabin for spamming Bum Rush which does quite well untwinked and requires no resources (earlier in the game, use Edgar spamming Chainsaws), and then whoever for the last slot.
Relm's good for more magic and helping learn Strago's lores. Shadow's Throw is nice. Terra can do very well with attacking and magic. Mog tanks and dance has a nice balence of power and unreliability. Gogo can bring any skill you need to the table. Umaro's fun. Celes's Runic does save your ass in several situations, and otherwise is Terra without Morph. Setzer is the patron saint of save states, Cyan is great for not teaching magic and tossing in the colleseum for consistant victories (even though I keep screwing up the plan because an Ice Flame or Thunder shield escapes my notice), but Gau I've traditionally neglected so I can't give him the same puffery.

This post has been edited by Mael Duin on 23rd February 2007 08:03