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Hey guys, and once again, welcome to Tryscal The Great's Story Discussion Topic! This is the spot to share your deepest thoughs, comments, and speculation about Final Fantasy 6.




In my last SDT, we talked about the Empire, it's origins, and Emperor Geshtal. The topic grew pretty fast, and it got pretty interesting! Now, I pose some new questions. What was the technology like in the War of the Magi? How exactly far did technology advance since the War of the Magi, and what societies took advantage of them? Obviously, judging by the intro, gunpowder, iron, and steam power had to be 'rediscovered' leading me to think that 1000 years ago, technology was MUCH more advanced then we see in even the Empire. Did the war devastate the world so much that the people forgot or possibly discarded the higher technology that they once had?


I personally think that the world long ago, thanks to the Espers, was much more advanced than it is now, but the war caused a post apocalypse type situation, where society has so caught up trying to survive, that all remnants of high technology was forgotten. Centuries later, it was refound, either due to reading ancient legends, or perhaps just starting over. Of course, this is all theory.



This topic is your spot to share the deeper story aspects of Final Fantasy 6, so spill your mind, and share your thoughs. This topic can get very open ended, so don't get lost! Also, if anyone has any ideas for the next Story Discussion Topic, PM them to me.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

I sorta think along the same lines. It could have been somewhat similar to ancient civilizations in the real world such as those of the Greeks and Romans who, at the time, possessed 'technology' that other civilizations didn't have. After several centuries these things were 'rediscovered' and became worldwide common use long before archaeologists found that they already existed before. Either that or following the War people saw just what they had done with their technology (like creating the Mage Warriors) and swore off all forms of it for far too long...kinda like the 'machina' deal in FFX...but that's doubtful I think.

This wouldn't necessarily mean they were too much more advanced during the War of the Magi, but I definitely think they were at if not slightly above the same level. Then again, it had only been a thousand years. I suppose that would leave a lot left to be found. After all, everyone thought the Espers were only myths until recently, and they were obviously a big deal back in the day. Any higher forms of technology could have been easily dismissed in the same way and thus never fully rediscovered.



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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

i think it was alittle more advanced cause of figaro castle. It was probly built in a magi era, and then when it was over was perserved. The reason behind this is simple the submergion factor, it unique in the game and its the only structure of its kind to have something like that. I belive that MagiTeck armor at one point was a personal kind of tank that the soilders used in battles mostly esper pilots. but when they were refound the espers powers where hunted down cuase they were the only ones who could use the powers in them. I also think they had to have some sort of freezing machines cause it hard for me to belive that tritoch would stay in one spot long enough to be frozen unless of course the cave caved in on him.

Moogles probly played big roles in the magi era too they probly used the power of there charms to help people safely over war areas and not get attacked. it they were attacked the moogles called on the sasquatches to help them fight. I also belive imps may have played a big part in the battles not only do you later get the option to buy an imp robot(well sorta) but you also find imp gear wich is some of the best in the game.

As for weapons technologie i belive thats how edgars tools got started, look for expample at the chain saw you find it in zozo wich could quite possible be a city that was destroyed while the war was going on. Airship might have made an appericane here to i mean setzer and daryl(sp?) had to get theres form some where right? the only other things i can think of is look at the acient castle ruins they resmble that of doma and figaro with the fans meaning they could of very well had the same technologie back then.

One of my strongest belifes that there technologies were more advanced its the boss you can fight called garudian it think it is. There is no way that thing was from the era in histroy, i mean no matter how high of a level you are you cant even land any damage on it till kefkas tower. These things may all seem alittle odd and unconntected to some people but i think they match up pretty well.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Magitek armor is where I will focus.
There are several types of this powerful warsuit, yet the Empire only knew to charge them with essence- NOT Magicite. They did not even know about magicite. This leads me to believe that Magitek armor is not an ancient relic at all- it is an original creation of the empires- a half-metallic, half-orgain blend. This is why it 'evolves' when Terra boards it- the armor evolves off of her magical capacity. HOWEVER- it is ONLY the Magitek armor that I believe to be as such. Take a look at the OTHER powered-armors- it is obvious Magitek is based off them. My theory is that some all-powerful ones were discovered (I'm guessing the two Guardians). One was dissassembled to see how it works, and reverse-engineered to create Magitek. This is the non-invincible one. The reason the other is invulnerable is that it was never damaged- so all of its parts remain fully intact- perhaps even a Magicite-based reactor as a power-source- or even the remains of its original pilot, defeated in battle! (After 1000 years, the Magicite probably infused into the mech.)

Next subject: Airships. I do believe that THESE, unlike Magitek, are relics of the past reborn. Setzer is aa gambler, and an outlaw- obiously he's rich off his @$$. Now, as an gambler, roaming the world with Daryl, he probably discovered the twin ships (sorry I dont remember the names) by accident- in Daryl's tomb. Notice the design of the tomb- it seems to be a wrecked hangar. When the twin craft were discovered, Setzer restored them.Now, you may be wondering why on earth Daryl would be buried in a HANGAR, right? Well, what better place? Its fitting, and in my opinion, a rather beautiful sentiment... to be with the essence of the sky.

Next Subject: Figaro Castle, and its 'Submerge Mode'
I do believe that Figaro, unlike the others, is purely recent. We all know that Edgar is a technical GENIUS, and an ancient castle with the ability to sink beneath the sands does not seem like it would be let be by the Empire... indeed, the very fact that Figaro can not only sink, but MOVE would have made it a PERFECT Imperial headquarters. Plus, look at how smoothly it runs, the engine appearences, and the fans- all seem to be in mint condition- as if they were all recent. Edgar altered Figaro castle to be an ultimate defensive fortress. His use of tools ties into this- how else wouldja make a castle into a mobile fort?

Final Subject: Esper Extraction.
The equipment used looks so.. out of place. Like relics. This, I believe, is purely ancient WOTM stuff.

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Uwao. aooh! I'm Gau!
I'm your friend!
Let's travel together!

I dissagree, i think figaro may have been kept up over the years i mean after all it is a kingdom why wouldent they keep it up? Also it could be because of the acient technologies that edgar is such a machine wiz. You have to remmber royal family members useally have to be learned people, wich could mean edgars family were gaurdians of this and that edgar was being groomed to be the next king. True sabin won the coin toss and opted for his freedom, but i think edgar set it up that way cause he had more training to be king. It could simply because of how technogloically advanced the castle was that made it impossible for the emipre to get at. It could also have very well of been the reason edgar is so learned in the art of machines. I mean take doma for example, doma dident really have, any technilogical aspects about it like figaro did and it eventally fell. Maybe thats how figaro has lasted so long.

Next matter is the magitek armor, yes i am aware there are many different kinds but the one thing that doesnt make any sense to me is if you theroy stands then how would the empire be able to know they could do that with the espers powers? They had to get the idea for some where they also had to get the method form some other source? My spectulation is yes, they could have gotten the method form the war of the magi, we already know that they could esctrat the esper power artifically, strego is proof of that. They can use the power espers had as there own unique power. The same could be true about the the magitek armor, when the war broke out i belive the espers could have used them as another form of defence aginst humans. I mean as we know not ever esper knows offencive magic, the could have powered this armor as defesnce aginst humans. But Geshtal found them and deiced to use them as a weapon for his army. The problem? simply the espers made them so that only the espers magical powers could be used in them, finding that the power was gone he sought out the sealed gate.

Next matter i have on this subject is what you were talking about what they used for extracting the esper powers. I think they could have been a thousand years old to do the job they used them for. How ever i dont think they are all entirely a thousand years old i think they might of had to learn about machines alittle more to fix them up, hence why the empire had a hold on figaro. They figured that the people with that kinda technologie would simply be able to understand how to use and fix it. When terra comes into play in the game they probly were on there way to get that last esper then they were going to try to anihalate figaro cuase they served no more use to them. Since how ever there strongest link with the espers and there strongest warrior was in the castle they werent going to attack till they got her back. Thats why kefka was so surprised about the double cross, they also dident know exctally where figaro goes so they were unable to find it cause the only two air ships were owned by setzer who wouldent give them up. They figured it would be too much of a hassle and cost too much to moblize a land unit to fid it. So instead they took the next best thing wich was the town of the castle, they figured if they could get edgar by the throat he would surrender terra.

The next thing that really bothers me about the technologie aspect of this game is this. If my caculations are true the past would have been more advanced than the future in wich case not only was it "REDISCOVERED" but the machines and insterments of war could vary well have been also. Whos to say they werent wageing the same war agin, kinda like what happens on a computer looping the screen saver or something. It probly gets to the point that the sins of there fathers are repeated and they just continuealy repeat the war. Now people who have beat the game will say "how is that possible cause magic and esper are destroyed" i dont think they are cause if they were terra would have died with the rest of the espers, i think it simply sealed the power away agin and rest everthing and in later generations it makes it come back in different forms like matteria for example.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Quote

Now people who have beat the game will say "how is that possible cause magic and esper are destroyed" i dont think they are cause if they were terra would have died with the rest of the espers, i think it simply sealed the power away agin and rest everthing and in later generations it makes it come back in different forms like matteria for example.

I for one seriously doubt that. When the Goddesses were defeated, the very source, essence, and being of magic were killed with them. The game tries pretty hard to convey that once the Goddesses were gone, Magic was gone, too, pretty much forever. And, uh, with all due respect, Locke, your posts are pretty hard to read, please watch your grammar and spelling in long-post esque topics like this, it's very important.

This post has been edited by Tryscal The Great on 27th August 2004 18:33

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

That really doesnt cut it with me, yes they explane that in the end of the game but you also see the magicites destroyed. And yet terra is still in her esper form the whole escape scene she is half esper,if they were completely gone she would have died cause that part of her would have been ripped out and the other half coudlent surive without it. oh and sorry i know they are little bit i'm not very good at grammer please forgive me.

This post has been edited by Lockes AlterEgo on 27th August 2004 18:38

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Quote

That really doesnt cut it with me, yes they explane that in the end of the game but you also see the magicites destroyed. And yet terra is still in her esper form the whole escape scene she is half esper,if they were completely gone she would have died cause that part of her would have been ripped out and the other half coudlent surive without it.

Alright, for one, when Terra is flying in her Esper form, all of the world's magic wasn't drained yet, so she still had some time. As for her being half Esper, yes, she is half Esper physically, but she is also half Esper spiritually. Maduin explained that as long as her human half is still strongly attached to the world, her Esper side would indeed still die, but she'll most certainly survive as a human. Which happened. Her Esper side vanished, then she turned into full human.


So, your theory isn't quite valid. Pay attention to the ending, and you'll catch it.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

Please keep this in mind, i havent seen the ending in like nine years. So i have forgotten that aspect. I also think that explination he gives her is a bit far fecthed but thats just my honest opion. Personally for that to even be plosible for me the magicites would have had to of given her there remaining life essance to help her live. Also if the world was indeed drained of magic they never explane this part i do know, if its gone how could they have fires to cook things or electricity for the machines and such? these things where all magic in the game.


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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Quote

Personally for that to even be plosible for me the magicites would have had to of given her there remaining life essance to help her live.

Even if they did, it would've dissapeared anyway. Remember. No Goddesses, no magic. Ever. Nowhere.

Quote

Also if the world was indeed drained of magic they never explane this part i do know, if its gone how could they have fires to cook things or electricity for the machines and such? these things where all magic in the game.

No they weren't. The only nation that took advantage of magic technology has the Empire, and even then, it was only for war. The other nations didn't even know what magic WAS, much less use it to cook things, or electricity. Remember how shocked Edgar was upon seeing magic for the first time. Now, if people used magic for everyday life, then why would he be so spooked? Electricity and cooking at the like was made possible by the coal supplied by Narshe, and steam power availible anywhere. So no, technology WASN'T dependent on magic. Only the Empire needed magic for their weapons. That's it.

This post has been edited by Tryscal The Great on 27th August 2004 18:57

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

I partly agree with you there but if you remmber fire was a spell it could be he was shocked more that terra was able to summon fire at will rather than shocked that she could use magic. If you remmber lots of monsters had fire like spell, granted this is just a theory on my part but whos to say some people did "harvest" fire so to say form the monsters and animals that knew how to use it? Thinking it could be just part of how they acted. I know that sounds a bit rediculouse but you have to remmber these are just my opions. if you want to talk to me more about Tryscal i'd love to talk about it pm and i will tell you how to reach me.


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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

I see what you're saying, but it seems a little far fetched. I mean, why would people risk their lives trying to snach fire from dangerous monsters like frightened cavemen, when they could just light a match, or burn some coal? It's stated at the start of the game that people already mastered technology, and they eventually forgot about magic entirely. No matter how benificial it may have been to harvest magic from monsters, people simply didn't know magic existed in the first place. They didn't even know the word itself!


And yes, I'd love to continue this in a PM, but, this topic really needs the posts between you and I, and I'd like someone elses imput on what we're talking about. So, let's keep this in this topic. Someone will drop by.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

Agreed. I have sent you my infromation so you should be able to contact me now.
As for me i have to go please email me though and we can talk about this more.

--------------------

Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Quote

(I'm guessing the two Guardians). One was dissassembled to see how it works, and reverse-engineered to create Magitek. This is the non-invincible one.

I think they were actually "supposed" to be the same guardian. The invicibility of the first one was simply to advance the plot and to keep you in certain areas. I think it wasn't really supposed to be invicible as much as it was impossible for you to beat at your current state. Later in the game when you are much stronger, you face it again and are able to beat it, a testament to how far you have progressed.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Well how many times befor the kefkas tower can you fight it i only know of two places.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

only two: Thamasa

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

before Leo fights Kefka

and in Vector if you try to go to the palace too soon.

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I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

Quote

The invicibility of the first one was simply to advance the plot and to keep you in certain areas.

Yes, this is true.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

I agree with that but if the game were real would it still be invincible? or would it beable to be beaten i mean they wouldent have to follow the story then would they?

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

Maybe, but since it isn't real, that's not the case.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

still if you think about it that way....but yah your right.

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

I would guess that the level of technology of the old world was about the same as FF6 "now." You can tell by the Leathal Weapons rolling around in the ancient castle. After 1000 years, that thing would have to be pretty darn durable to last that long!

As for losing technological advances...... technologically oriented societies are the most easy to destroy since only a very small portion of the population actually knows how to build such things.

Look at the French Revolution, they killed all their scienctists and a couple of years later were totally screwed when they got attacked by their enemies (since they could only make very very small amounts of gun powder). Cut off the head of a snake, and the rest will follow. How many people here can even start a fire with just two sticks?

This post has been edited by SuperManBoy on 31st August 2004 22:06

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"Look at me! I'm a receptionist! G'fa ha ha!" Quote Ultros

*raises hand* if you want to go about it that way then how would you explan someplace like figaro castle? I mean they had the learn that art from some where, obviously if all technologies were rediscovered that means no one knew how to make them. Yet figaro had to learn to do something that advanced from some where right?

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Don't fear the reaper!
Wonderful system this "Democracy" is no mechanism to break a tie -Dinobot-
It's spelled Raymond Luxray Yatch but it's pronounced Throat Wobbler Mangrove.
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Sic Semper Tyrannis bush.

That isn't necessarily true. Just because they knew how to do something unique doesn't mean that they had to learn it from somebody else. Look at the Chinese back in the day. They had cross bows, gun powder, rockets, air ships, and types of bridges that no other country even has today.

Truth is, there is nothing supporting any of the old tech stuff unless you take the Lethal Weapon and Magitek into consideration. I would say that the old tech went in the way of Magitek since there was an entire war over it.

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"Look at me! I'm a receptionist! G'fa ha ha!" Quote Ultros

Peraphs the airships are one of the things that were lost of the old society.

think about it, in the entire game we only see two airships, if they are so useful since they are the only way of going from the south continent to the north and forth, you could imagine the empire could go and build more of them, they could be especially useful in creating an invincible army so the empire could go and trash a place quickly, just think of the red wings in final fantasy 4 .

So maybe the empire was unable of build more of them?
Maybe they didn´t even build them for starting, they just happen to find them.
Maybe the previous civilization had hundreds of them, but most were burned down in the war and only two survived until the time FF6 takes place.

Another thing about the magitek, I dont think the war of magi where fighted with magitek, I always thought of it as a war of magicians, remember the guys at thamasa? they know magic and have nothing to do with magitek, so peraphs the previous civilization founded a way to extract magic without technology.

Here's my theory:

Magitek:
I think that there used to be different nations before, and they were all very technologically advanced. I think that each one used magitek technology, only more advanced than the empire's. The people of the time all probably had magic power to a degree: some were able to use it well, some were average, and some just plain sucked. They probably used their basic powers to upgrade their magiteks' abilities. However, the espers had better magic abilities than the humans. Seeing this, all the nations tried to capture espers and extract their powers to make themselves stronger and ultimately their magiteks. Then all the nations started a giant world war over who got the espers. All the sides would battle using the drained power of the espers. They all battled each other, and the rest is history.

Airships:
Airships were relics of the past. The nations probably used them to trasport their armies throughout the whole world. The ship in Albrook could hold magitek, so why not an airship. The airships were also much bigger than that ship, so its possible. Besides, if they were recent, the emipre would've probably built a kazillion of them and used them instead of ships.

Figaro Castle:
Another relic of the past. Figaro was probably one of the nations to survive after the world war in which almost everything was destroyed. Most the scientists were probably all killed by the end of the war, so people couldn't rebuild, only preserve (owner's manual?). The castle was preserved over the ages as a relic of times long forgotten, and probably because they knew that it might come in handy one day. The design is also similar as the Ancient Castle (another nation?).About Edgar... he probably studied the machines and read about them in ancient texts, if I remember correctly the castle had a library. In there they probably kept records of history and technology. Its just that no one knew how to build anymore. About the castle's condition... they probably replaced the parts every so often.

Technology in general:
During the war, almost everbody got killed, so only a few people survived. Something like this was said before in this thread: "civilizations dependent on technology are easier to kill bacause only a few people from them actually know how to build them". Since almost everybody died, the people who knew how to build were very few in number, so with time the knowledge disappeared. And it was 1000 years also. Thats like going from the medieval age (c.1000 AD) to now (c.2000 AD). Its a very long time, and the knowledge was probably lost. Also, the surviving scientists could have refused to build anytrhing else, leading to the knowledge being lost. Overall, the knowledge was lost after the war, and then with time, people began to rediscover, leading to FF6.

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Music is a mysterious thing... Sometimes, it makes people remember things that they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember them or not...

- Shitan, Xenogears

Its funny that you compare the Ancient and Figaro Castles. I always thought that the Ancient castle had a very strange design. There were multiple towers all over, walls and rooms that didn't seem to make any sense. Gratings in the floor... everything was just odd in general.

It is also odd that yes, there aren't more airships. Especially when there are more than a few flying Imperial machines. But anyway, just becuase they are technologically advanced doesn't mean that they had to advance the way we did.

As for people with magic, I also always thought it was cool that Strago was a 1000 year decendant of some Mage Warrior, yet he still has some pretty freak'n cool spells which are incredible powerful/useful. Kind of makes you wonder how powerful the real Mage Warriors were! Especially since they likely underwent training as well!!

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"Look at me! I'm a receptionist! G'fa ha ha!" Quote Ultros