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Do you think characters in FF6 are balanced out, or unfair.
First I thought it was fair, then unfair, but as I learned more about Characters like Gau, I think it IS balanced out...Now I'm all confused.
What's your opinion? Do you think SquareSoft even meant to make them fair? If no, do you think they meant you to use weak characters and strong characters in a good combination?

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I will be there...

I think each of them can learn the same magic and upgrade their stats at level ups, so there is a bit of equality. But some special skills (Slots, Sketch, Steal, Runic) are a little useless. I rarely used Runic, but I liked Morphing, so why have Celes when Terra's stats were similar (and slightly higher) than Celes'?

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Lou: There's a couple of guys fighting down at the aquarium, Chief.
Wiggum: Do they still sell those frozen bananas?
Lou: I think so.
Wiggum: Let's roll.

Some characters are definately stronger than others, but really only in the early parts of the game. Sabin and Edgar tear things up. All that really matters towards the end is who has ultima.

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What would Zorro do?-Homer Simpson

I think that Square was trying to mix two different ideas from the previous FF games.  In FFIV, everyone was a specific character whose skills you couldn't change.  They were who they were.

In FFV, they were only five heroes (but really it was merely four players) throughout the entire game, but a whole plethora of interchangable 'jobs'.

Now in FFVI you have one character for each job from FFV, but they can't change their skills like in FFIV.  I'd surmise that in the beginning of the pre-production stage of the making of this game, the producers decided that the job system of FFV was balanced enough and just make the characters based around that system.  But I could be wrong...

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

Quote (Jlombardi13 @ 3 Aug. 2002, 12:46)

I think each of them can learn the same magic and upgrade their stats at level ups, so there is a bit of equality. But some special skills (Slots, Sketch, Steal, Runic) are a little useless. I rarely used Runic, but I liked Morphing, so why have Celes when Terra's stats were similar (and slightly higher) than Celes'?

by the way, that gives me idea, because i use runic, steal, (and slot more than coin toss ;p)more than morph. Maybe it's depends on who-use-who-well.

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I will be there...

Quote (Narratorway @ 3 Aug. 2002, 15:44)

I think that Square was trying to mix two different ideas from the previous FF games.  In FFIV, everyone was a specific character whose skills you couldn't change.  They were who they were. In FFV, they were only five heroes (but really it was merely four players) throughout the entire game, but a whole plethora of interchangable 'jobs'. Now in FFVI you have one character for each job from FFV, but they can't change their skills like in FFIV.  I'd surmise that in the beginning of the pre-production stage of the making of this game, the producers decided that the job system of FFV was balanced enough and just make the characters based around that system.  But I could be wrong...

I think your right for the most part, FF5 was a return to the original three FF's (kinda like how square made FF9 after FF7 and FF8)  

In FF6 they had the job system for flavor, but then it switched to the precusor of the materia system.

personaly i think FF7 could have done with less playable chars myself.

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"Number One, I order you to go take a number two."

Quote (mael_duin @ 4 Aug. 2002, 00:03)

I think your right for the most part, FF5 was a return to the original three FF's (kinda like how square made FF9 after FF7 and FF8)   In FF6 they had the job system for flavor, but then it switched to the precusor of the materia system. personaly i think FF7 could have done with less playable chars myself.

That's exactly what I was thinking about. Most things I learned about Final Fantasy was from FFV (cause I didn't play tactics) I think whole Final Fantasy game is "depends" on job system. With just altering a little for each FF series.
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I forgot to say that if characters are fair on being useful, not how strong and how weak (because supporting characters are weak, but useful e.g. whitemage, yin-yang mage) forgive my.....brain...

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I will be there...

Quote (mael_duin @ 4 Aug. 2002, 06:03)

I think your right for the most part, FF5 was a return to the original three FF's (kinda like how square made FF9 after FF7 and FF8)

Except that, of the first three FFs, only FF3 had an FF5-like job system.  Jobs were not changable in the others.

Quote (mael_duin @ 4 Aug. 2002, 06:03)

In FF6 they had the job system for flavor, but then it switched to the precusor of the materia system.

Personally, FF6's Esper system reminds me a lot more of junctioning than materia.  Except not done in such a way that makes you want to rip your internal organs out through boredom and irritation.  Tiddles does not junctioning.

Quote (mael_duin @ 4 Aug. 2002, 06:03)

personaly i think FF7 could have done with less playable chars myself.

I disagree.  What I liked most about FF7 was the storyline and the characters - they were well enough done that I could forgive the odd ropey gameplay moment.

Wouldn't the world be boring if everyone agreed?  

Regarding the fairness of FF6 characters - with a few exceptions, you often find, in my experience, that a lot of people have different favourite parties.  Some people love Locke, some people hate him, etc.  To me, this shows that each FF6 game has the depth that depending on how you play it, different characters might become the best.  And that says to me, the characters are pretty much equal.

Also, beyond skills, certain characters can equip certain items.  Locke tears it up with the Wing Edge while defended in the back row, Setzer scores pretty nicely with Fixed Dice (especially with offering... IMHO, much more useful than offering/genji glove on other chars...), Mog, Gau, and Umaro use the Snow Muffler, etc.  I never get the merit award because it takes half of the uniqueness of each character out of the game.  Beyond Relm and, to a lesser extent, Gau, most players will use all of the characters because of their separate strengths and weaknesses.  Early in the game, yes, Edgar and Sabin rip through pretty much everything, but later in the game things even out, even if you play the "fun" way and largely ignore Ultima

The problem with FF7 was that the characters had very little that set them apart.  Stats and Limit Breaks.  Because of the way the materia system works, every character can really be the same as any other.

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I close my mouth now and I scream,
Open the door, there's nothing worth redeeming
I saw your face before in rough,
You should wait around a while, your body's bound to turn up.
So low for how high?
-Matt Good, "Running for Home"

And weapons.  The Wimpy Rod of Aeris is not as powerful as the Stupid Sword of Cloud.

I agree that not enough separated the characters, but that's even more true of FF8, and it's still true of FF6 to a lesser extent, with everyone able to learn any magic and, as you say, the merit award.  And it could be argued that 5 also has similar problems; the job system hides it better, but there's nothing to stop you mimicing that system in your choice of materia.

The only games with truly rigid character qualities IMHO are those where your character has a fixed class from the start (1, 2, 4, 9 etc).  And I haven't played FF10, so there's no way I can comment on it.

Quote (Tiddles the Cat @ 9 Aug. 2002, 03:24)

The only games with truly rigid character qualities IMHO are those where your character has a fixed class from the start (1, 2, 4, 9 etc).

I disagree.  I think the the characters in FFX were very different.  Their stats will most likely stay proportionate with their personality (big strength for Auron, big magic attack/defense for Lulu, etc.).  Their overdrives are all very different, and they are a big part of the game.  Their weapons are all unique and intricately detailed.  The only way to make all the characters the same is to cover the whole freakin' sphere grid with every character.  FFVII's characters were also quite different just because of the differences in weapons - Cid had some amazing weapons which made him a much better character than say, Barret or Red XIII, IMO.

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"Hit hard, hit first, hit often."

--Adm. William "Bull" Halsey, USN

honestly, it's all in how you raise 'em.  For example, my Cyan knows all the healing spells and was lucky enough to receive some boosts in his mag stats, so to me he's as ultimate a fighter as I'd ever care for.  He kills well, heals well.  THis can apply to every character in the game 'cept 'maro, and Gogo is only as good as the chars he's with, when it comes to mimicing and spell-casting.  Whether that balances out his piss-poor stats and weaponry I don't know.  I'd say they're all even, though some are better specialized than others.

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i see you've set this time aside to humiliate yourself in public.

Well, I think in the end it all evens out how strong they are. (More or less.) I mean, all the spells (with the exception of the big ones, like Ultima) do around the same amount of damage/HP recovered for each character. It's never drastically changed. The physical attacks are another story, but again, that can be overcome with Esper bonuses. Gogo was my strongest character because if you choose "magic" as one of his/her special skills (in his Stats menu) he/she has access to ALL the spells your characters have learned in the game. Also, it has access to the rest of their special attacks. In that way it might be a little uneven. But overall, it does even out.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Gogo's stats crap? I know I never really used him alot, but I just can't seem to remember why.

Gogo's Abilities were evened out by his crappy stats and lack of Esper bonuses. If Gogo could have brought his stats up, he might have been unstoppable.

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Lou: There's a couple of guys fighting down at the aquarium, Chief.
Wiggum: Do they still sell those frozen bananas?
Lou: I think so.
Wiggum: Let's roll.

Quote (Jlombardi13 @ 16 Aug. 2002, 11:35)

If Gogo could have brought his stats up, he might have been unstoppable.

Heh....I think that's exactly why you're not allowed to give him espers and such. I liked the way Gogo's magic system worked anyway. Having every spell that the combined party has is very helpful in a sticky situation.

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"If it is weak, either kill it or ignore it. Anything else honors it."
-Kaervek

Sabin is overpowered in FF6.  He has really high base stats and gets his 3rd best weapon as of Zozo, and can very quickly get get best two weapons in the WoR.  The only thing that slows him down is that it takes a while to get multi-target attacks like fire dance and air blade, and then there is the chance that you'll miss.

Edgar and Cyan are also overpowered to begin with.  This results in the usual one good party against Kefka in the snow fields.  

Runic isn't all that useful due to the large amount of special attacks in the game.  it would be far more useful in a game like FF9.  I usually don't think to use morph, mostly because it's not there when I need it.  Steal, as always, is only useful in certain places to get certain things.  I usually don't mess with sketch because I use the SNES version and  I don't know all the places where it crashes.  Lore is only moderately useful, but has nothing on Sabin and Edgar.

As for FF7, the sticks and swords should do the same damage so long as the stats are equal.  Statistically, RedXIII, Yuffie and Cloud are the best overall characters.  The fact that RedXIII gets the Seraph Comb so early makes him even better.  Aeris and Vincent are casters.  Barret and Tifa have average stats.  Cid has pretty shoddy stats, nothing that stands out, balanced  by his better limits.  Cait Sith is shoddy.  I rarely use RedXIII or Yuffie, but they are generally the best.

Quote (Mithreel @ 30 Aug. 2002, 18:52)

Sabin is overpowered in FF6.  He has really high base stats and gets his 3rd best weapon as of Zozo, and can very quickly get get best two weapons in the WoR.  The only thing that slows him down is that it takes a while to get multi-target attacks like fire dance and air blade, and then there is the chance that you'll miss. Edgar and Cyan are also overpowered to begin with.  This results in the usual one good party against Kefka in the snow fields.   Runic isn't all that useful due to the large amount of special attacks in the game.  it would be far more useful in a game like FF9.  I usually don't think to use morph, mostly because it's not there when I need it.

Well, to tell you one thing, you can use morph when you want to, so you can save using morph until you really need it.

And for firedance and air blade, even though they don't ignore defense, they never miss. All Blitz never miss exept the one with drop down.

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I will be there...

The only time morph really tipped the scales for me was in Thamasa [pay attention to the spelling, Bismark ], against the big fireball thing at the end of the burning building maze.  Morph + Ice2 = dead boss.  Morph isn't of real use until the WoR when it actually has enough longevity to let you cast a few spells / attack some.  

Bismark, I imagine he meant the annoying "Incorrect Blitz Input", as opposed to "missing".

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I close my mouth now and I scream,
Open the door, there's nothing worth redeeming
I saw your face before in rough,
You should wait around a while, your body's bound to turn up.
So low for how high?
-Matt Good, "Running for Home"

Quote (Edwin Odeisseron @ 30 Aug. 2002, 22:40)

The only time morph really tipped the scales for me was in Thamasa [pay attention to the spelling, Bismark ], against the big fireball thing at the end of the burning building maze.  Morph + Ice2 = dead boss.  Morph isn't of real use until the WoR when it actually has enough longevity to let you cast a few spells / attack some.   Bismark, I imagine he meant the annoying "Incorrect Blitz Input", as opposed to "missing".

no, not at all, I just don't remember the name. The combo is XY-Down-up (I think it's called Suplex) It's one of the first three starting blitz.



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I will be there...

He's right, Suplex can miss, but it's not missing by percentage, it's missing by default.  Some enemies just cannot be suplexed.  Some huge ones, like HadesGigas, can, and it looks pretty dang funny when they are.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

Quote (Neal @ 31 Aug. 2002, 11:23)

He's right, Suplex can miss, but it's not missing by percentage, it's missing by default.  Some enemies just cannot be suplexed.  Some huge ones, like HadesGigas, can, and it looks pretty dang funny when they are.

Thats quite odd because Sabin could even suplex phunbaba. Then I thought nup not even he is that strong has to be a glitch. Did it again Phunbaba died.

As far as balanced goes. Yes each of them has their uses. Gau tore up the snowfields with the templar rage. But it was Sabin who finished of Kefka the first time.

Runic was very useful. problem is when I faced magic using foes who open up with a powerful spell Celes died.

Edgar and Cyan ruled These guys handed but kickings to all enemies.

Boy I love slot. I always could get the 7 flush.

Morph reminds me of Goku turning Super Saiyan. I saved it for special occassions.

He can suplex a train, but not a puny Rhodox.  Explain that one to me.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

As far as I saw, the only time Sabin cannot suplex a creature is if the creature is in the air.  He can't suplex birds, because they're airborn, I guess.  But things like behemoths are no problem as they are grounded.  Made sense to me.

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i see you've set this time aside to humiliate yourself in public.

I always will want to see Sabin suplex Gesthal. Oooh the bones will shatter. I don't like that Emperor. I mean come on someone would overthrow him earlier. Then Kefka happened. Thank you God.

There's a bit in the enemy stats that dictates Can't Suplex.  It's not listed in my doc, but it is in FF3usME if anyone needs to know what can and cannot be suplexed.

Rhodoxs don't float either.  That's what finally tipped me off about that stupid bit.

So, knowing this, I ask again: A train, but not a Rhodox...?

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

well it isn't hard to kill.

That's pretty obvious.  But I'd still like a theory on that.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Well, you see, that's just the tip of the iceberg.  It might look like some squirrel-rat thing, but what you don't see is the horrid monster lying beneath it in the hole, of which the rhodox is just the sensory organ, clipped off as easily as a mushroom... or something.

You ever tried to catch a squirrel in order to Suplex it, ZED?  Sabin's strong enough to suplex a train, just not fast enough to catch a squirrel.  Maybe.  

Is it possible to Suplex the Rhodox's palette changes?  (for example, the Rhodox-type things on the Solitary Island)

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I close my mouth now and I scream,
Open the door, there's nothing worth redeeming
I saw your face before in rough,
You should wait around a while, your body's bound to turn up.
So low for how high?
-Matt Good, "Running for Home"