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Today was the 60th anniversary of D Day. I just watched the main ceremony, with both Chirac and Bush.

Although nowadays, and for the past 2 years almost, relationships between France and America has declined, I wanted to say some about this particular event.

It may seem now that Europe and particularly France frown upon USA's intervention in other countries, mainly Irak. It is true that we have differences about the matter, but rest assure that french do not forget that we owe much to Eisenhower and the american people back there, who went and died on our land to free us.

I probably wouldn't be alive today to tell that, if it wasn't for USA : my grandfather was deported during WW II because he was a soldier (luckily, his captain made he and all the others members of his squad burn all their papers, so that the Nazis couldn't found out if there were jews, or my grandfather would have been deported to death camps). When he was freed, after years of eating grass to survive, he was able to join with my grandmother, and shortly after in 48 my father was born. So when I say I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for USA, I know what I'm talking about, seeing that more than half of my ancestors died during this war.

On this day, I want say thank you to the american who sacrificed their lives for us, just like french sacrificied theirs during the early part of american history, when the Boston blocade started the Independance War in 1775 and sealed the alliance with France. This is the kind of relationship that should prevail between countries, the one that unite people in a fight for freedom, for the right to choose for yourself what to do with your own life.

My favourite definition of friend is this one : someone who, if they think you're wrong or disagree with you, will tell you about it. That's what is happening right now in our world : USA issued an action, and France among other nations believe they made a mistake. Only history will tell who was right about it : we can't tell right now. But what I want to tell is this : France isn't an ennemy of the USA, we're still the same friend that we were 230 years ago, and 60 years ago. Please, don't make the mistake of thinking that we are something else.

So there. My thoughts about this event are inscripted on this virtual place, the kind of place where friendship among nations is celebrated in an odd way, where american, canadian, british, scotish and french people come together, and speak about any stuff they want, if they of course follow the rules of decency that our Ranger decided when he founded this place .

Very well put. :-) I totally agree with your sentiment.

(I don't really have much to add myself because I'd be hard pressed to put it any more eloquently than Mr. Thou did.)

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"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

Amen.

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Uwao. aooh! I'm Gau!
I'm your friend!
Let's travel together!

Don't forget Dutch people, Mr Thou. They come together too, y'know

I followed the process on tv as well. I had to think back to a picture from my History book: Churchill, Clemenceau and Roosevelt on a black and white picture. Those were the men who made our present, and I realized that Blair, Schroder, Bush and Chirac will make the future.

Let us hope that those in power are not on the verge of making/repeating any senseless and deadly mistakes.

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 8th June 2004 19:53

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Well as much of an attept as they may have made here to make you guys look like the enemy, I still think Sadam is the enemy... you may not and that's ok but Idon't think you guys are the enemy. I agree with you when you said that the best kind of friend is the kind that will give you an honest opinion and tell you when they think you are wrong, so I don't think anything badly of France for not agreeing with the actions of the US. I myself don't even agree with them all.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

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Let us hope that those in power are not on the verge of making/repeating any senseless and deadly mistakes.

Heh. That was nearly EXACTLY quoted from the FF6 opening, Djibriel.

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Uwao. aooh! I'm Gau!
I'm your friend!
Let's travel together!

i love d-day and god bless america and woot woot we won ww2 but i just want to point out some facts and this is in no way degrading to america im just trying to make maybe some of you aware... Germany had just about 3/4 of their army on the eastern front. and most of the casualties and the killing took place here... Russia lost over 22.5 million people during the time period between 1941-1945. Over 10 million Ukrainians died... Many of the countries most important cities were totaly destroyed. Many cities such as Kharkov were taken and retaken by both sides... D-Day of course did help the war but if it would have come sooner it would help the Russian forces tremendusly... Russia was asking the Western allies for a second fron for almost two years. When Russia started to push back Nazis and were actually winning then the allies decided to help. They opened a second front which did help tremendusly mainly dude to the amount of armour that was taken away from the eastern front in order to protect france... This left a very thin line of defense in the center of the german lines was a perfect oppurtunity for the Russian army to crush Army Group Centre... The Nazi were preparing for an offensive in North Ukraine since it is much easier to maneuver due to its flat plains... The Germans were never able to recover from the distruction of a hole group... a total of 17 division were totally destroyed... The name of the Russian counter offensive was Operation Bagration... D-Day will forever be one of the most important days in history... but lets not forget the other operation that defeated germany... like it said in a book i read.. The Russian offensive is heavily outshined in the Western countries but it is one of the biggest defeats of any armies in the history of the world... just wanted to add this maybe someone wants to know. WW2 is a very intresting subject to me!

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"Isn't ramza a girls name?" -me

i havent changed my avatar or anything in a long time! time for a change yall!

All true Mr. Thou. America and france have a long complicated history. Although at times it can be soured by steteotypes and what not usually things are good. Many americans that I personally know would like to Grudge that France hasn't ever done anything for the USA. while we saved them countless times. However like you said- they seem to forget if not for France and the Ben Franklins diplomacy skills WE wouldn't be around to grudge that we saved you. America sided with the french even when things ended up going sour for us. Like in Vietnam when we ignored the crys for help of the Vietkong and Supported our old WW2 ally. Call it political reasons, call it loyalty to an old friend. Regardless thanks to you for your heart felt sentiment. Though i may not agree with current american politics, I for one am truely glad im here and not a third world Garbage hole. were it not for French support all those years ago I couldn't happily say i am happy to live in a free country!

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (Djibriel @ 6th June 2004 17:54)

I had to think back to a picture from my History book: Churchill, Clemenceau and Roosevelt on a black and white picture.

Ok sorry I have to step in on this one and sorry to point out a mistake but I am a history teacher. Clemenceau was not with Roosevelt or Churchill you are thinking of Stalin from Russia. Clemenceau was the prime minister of France during WWI and along with Lloyd George of England helped to put so many sanctions and punishment on the Germans that WWII was inevitable.

By the way, yes the French they helped us in the Revolution thank you, but then we saved their arse in WWI, WWII, and then tried to clean up their mess in Vietnam. But of course Charles de Gaulle, their "hero" after WWII, conviced them that they were still strong and had to resist the Americans and then condemned us while we were trying to clean up their mess in Vietnam. Haha yeah God bless the frickin French.

But seriously God Bless the Americans who served in that hellish war or any war becuase they are all heros.

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

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I had to think back to a picture from my History book: Churchill, Clemenceau and Roosevelt on a black and white picture.

I know that one interpretation is that above quote is information, but I can successfully defend myself by asking you all with the 'truth' really is?

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Heh. That was nearly EXACTLY quoted from the FF6 opening, Djibriel.

Yeah, it would seem that way. And I never intended it to be.

Honest.



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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Yes I agree Thou. However I note that te French somtimes tried to play both sides of a war involving the USA (civil war for one). I don't really think the average american will consider the French a fried as much as a "not enemie" because that is what it has seemed like for so long that people have developed strong prejudices.

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There is a time and a place for everything, and I am niether

I don't think it's an issue of Americans thinking that the French are an "enemy". I think it is more of an issue that the French appear to resent many of our actions from the past couple decades and in turn, most Americans can't understand that if you claim to be an ally, why do you always oppose us?




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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Quote (Tidu-who @ 7th June 2004 11:46)

most Americans can't understand that if you claim to be an ally, why do you always oppose us?

Who's Us? What exactly do you mean by opposition?

Maybe you meant this:

most American's can't understand that if you claim to be an ally, why do you often disagree with our government's foreign policy?

In which case it doesn't become that hard to understand. They are a seperate nations and have different opinions. This hardly makes them any less of an ally.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

In WWII, the Americans came in late, giving the necessary boost the west needed to push back the Nazis out of France.
Radar helped keep the Nazis from winning the Battle of Britain, by keeping the British ready to fight back Nazi war planes whenever they came. Had Hitler won, he would have had the perfect location to launch an invasion against the US.
As RAC, mentioned, the Soviets kept the bulk of the Nazi army away, allowing a better invasion from the west. Even before the bulk was sent east, USSR kept the Nazis on two opposite fronts.
Free France kept the Nazis distracted, and many of the conquered French hid all the art that was in the Louvre, preserving important portions of European (not just French) history.
Americans fought off the Japanese nearly single-handedly, with only the aid of already-defeated and nearly-defeated scattered allies.
We all did our parts.

It was the French Blockade during the final battle that helped the American Revolution be won.
It was Britain who founded and, later (in various degrees) abused the colonies that began America.
It was the victory over the French in the French and Indian War (Seven Years War) that caused the French to be resentful enough to help out during the revolution.
It was the Potuguese dominance over eastern trade routes that caused the Spanish to go West and ultimately discover the continent (southern half) that would later be the location of the United States. It was England's and France's jealousy of Spain's western success that caused them to go after the north part of the Americas.
It was William the Conquorer's defeating of Henry Cabbot in 1066 that began the Middle Ages and the back-and-forth struggle between England and France that would lead to the hostilities that would be key later.
And a trillion other things that caused the present to be exactly how it was.

I have heard several reasons why there is resentment between American and French citizens today.
America's unwillingness to help the French with their revolution after they helped with the Americans'.
The quasi-war between the US and France in the early 1800s.
France playing both sides during the Civil War.
De Gaulle/France getting no glory/credit after WWII.
That Vietnam thing mentioned earlier.
Number one and four are the most common ones I've heard, because they relate to the expression "Only America has a short-term memory."

The whole French-American hatred thing has mostly seemed to have been based on bigotry and stereotypes (on our side of it). It really picked up with France saying no to the current invasion of Iraq. I, myself have been having to put up with alot of stupidity (my surname is French).
(Not meaning to begin another war arguement here, but) I understand why the French (and Germans and Russians) were so resistant to joining in the war effort. Turned out they were selling weapons to Hussein. I don't really care though. It's not like they helped him any.

Happy 60th D-Day, everyone.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

I agree with everything you said Paladin. I just wanted to add that the reason United States couldnt help France in its Civil War was because US was a totaly new country and still very seperate federal and state powers and were still in war debt. They could in no way support France financially or militarily in its civil war... And Vietnam i just wanted to say that France didnt do any thing wrong... Vietnam wanted its independence and France was holding on to its Imperial ways. When Vietnam wanted to become communist is what made United States join the war. To stop the spread of communism in that countries which i might add they failed at... but thats not frances fault....

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"Isn't ramza a girls name?" -me

i havent changed my avatar or anything in a long time! time for a change yall!

Thought it was time for a revival of this topic.
We're coming up on another anniversary afterall. Salut to the vets who fought so long ago to save us from so much.

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"There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, Well, your Granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana. No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a-Goddamned-Bitch named Georgie Patton!" ~ General George S. Patton, Jr (This speech was delivered to Patton's troops on June 5, 1944)

To Normandy and all we accomplished.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

To the Axis nations and all they lost, for they too fought well.

Edit

I'm not supporting them, just saying they too deserve to be honored as soldiers and men.

This post has been edited by Zephir on 6th June 2005 03:45

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~Status Report~

* Completed... Dragon's Head
* Completed... Soldiers of the Empire: Disciples (release pending)
* In Progress/Undecided... Of Love and Betrayal
* Planning/Assembly... Where it all Began

Quote (Zephir @ 5th June 2005 22:44)

To the Axis nations and all they lost, for they too fought well.

Edit

I'm not supporting them, just saying they too deserve to be honored as soldiers and men.

A Nazi in our midst!!!!!

Get him!!!!!!

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Quote (The Ancient @ 6th June 2005 13:48)

Quote (Zephir @ 5th June 2005 22:44)

To the Axis nations and all they lost, for they too fought well.

Edit

I'm not supporting them, just saying they too deserve to be honored as soldiers and men.

A Nazi in our midst!!!!!

Get him!!!!!!

He means the soldiers, the poor dumb conscripts who might not have agreed with the nazi ideals. They were still human, and they still had wives, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers. What made them different from the allied soldiers, some of whom agreed with the Nazi ideals?

After all, the current Pope was once a member of the Hitler Youth, and he allegedly did not enjoy it. Few German War Veterans agree/agreed with many of the Nazi ways.

Anyway, to every poor dumb fool killed by the errors of the higher-ups, arrogance, stupid officers and smart enemies, on both sides.

This post has been edited by Del S on 6th June 2005 13:42

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.