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Hey guys! Tryscal here. Let's talk about one of my favorite aspects to FF6's story. The Empire. Ever since I played the game, I was fascinated by them. So, I decided to start a thread about it.


Let's discuss on some questions:


1. Where did the Empire get it's power and technological might from? We know it wasn't the Espers, since they had high technology before the assualt on the Esper world. How did the Empire advance, and why didn't the rest of the world advance with them?


2. Before the reign of Emperor Gestahl, was the Empire at peace with the other nations? (especially Tzen, Miranda, Albrook, Doma, and Figaro)


3. Did the Empire exist before Gestahl? Or was it just a normal nation like the rest? Does the Empire attribute all of it's success to Gestahl? What was it like before?


4. How did the Empire discover Magic, and Espers? See, I'm thinking that since the Empire's homeland rests where the Esper world is, the entire continent is a treasure trove of magic. But according to the Magic scholar in Albrook, the entire continent and all the monsters on it are low in magical power? What's up with that?


5. Could the Empire sustain a concentrated attack by all of it's enemies? Figaro, Tzen, Doma, and the others? Was the other nations being lazy? Or did Figaro and Doma ignore the 'Sleeping Giant' up until the Empire got ahold of the possible resources, strategies, and manpower to take on all of it's opposers? Or is the Empire just that powerful?



I hope we can discuss and possibly answer these questions on the time to come. Thanks, and I'm glad to be here!

This post has been edited by Tryscal The Great on 17th May 2004 12:53

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

Allow me to post below something I wote as a guideline for a large fanfic concerning the rise of the Empire. I'll add notes here and there, specifically to indicate facts. Ofcourse, most things are not in the game and are therefore not necessarily true.

0 NYG
Gestahl the second dies a natural death, and Gesthal the tirth. becomes king. Gestahl swears to his death father he will do everything to make the Gestahl Kingdom the greatest lands on earth.

3 NYG
During a hunting trip in a southern land, Gestah saves Leo’s life, who swears alliance to the throne of Vector, honoring his tribe’s code. Leo follows Gestahl to Vector. They bond and Leo becomes Gestahl’s private body guard. (Leo is, unlike everybody else in the game, no Caucasian. I figured he's probably from far, far away, and he needed a good reason to leave that all behind. This whole honor code is supported in the game).

8 NYG
Gestahl's sister dies of food poisoning, and Gestahl the tirth becomes paranoid. Leo’s tries to talk him out of this ideas, but fails.

9 NYG
Kefka Pallazio befriends Gestahl when they are the only survivers on another hunting trip gone awry. Kefka gets along well with both Gestahl and Leo, and is given the highest rank promotion possible under Gestahl, namely that of Major.

11 NYG
Gestahl learns of the Sealed Gate, and decides to take it as soon as possible. Leo is made general.
Kefka thinks Leo is incompetent and tells Gestahl this. Kefka’s popularity suffers and Kefka is angry over Leo’s promotion.
Leo and Kefka, following orders given by Gestahl, take Albrook.
Tzen and Maranda remain allies with Vector, but their relationship suffers from the attack on Albrook.
(It's very likely that the whole Southern Continent was at peace before Gesthal started his offensive maneouvres. With Albrook being a major strategic factor due to its docks, not to mention the fact that it's closest to Vector, makes it likely that Albrook was taken first. Ofcourse, the Empire would need good trade routes to import all the things they needed to get the scenario running)

12 NYG
The base near the Sealed Gate is build. Many Espers are taken, including Maduin’s child whose name is Terra Branford.
A revolt in Albrook is bloodily surpressed.
The King of Figaro seizes his alliance with Vector.
The people of Vector grow more and more dissatisfied.
Kefka offers to be the first Mage Warrior under Gestahl, and is infused with magic. The procedure is a success but Kefka suffers from mental instabilities. He slowly loses his mind.
The King of Figaro dies under questionalbe circumstances, and his successor swears alliance to Vector. (It's hinted at by Sabin in the flashback that it was the Empire who killed their father. Edgar pretended to be an ally to the Empire despite this, and it must've been hard for Sabin).

20 NYG
The first MagiTek Armors are created.
Vector hounds are infused with intelligence. (Just a side note for me. Imperial dogs always run when there is only one left of them, so I thought it was neat to include it.)
Gestahl learns of the Status and decides that they must be part of the Impirial power.

21 NYG
Tzen is taken by Vector, under charge of Kefka. The Kingdom Gestahl is renamed the Empire of Gestahl.
Maranda inmediatly declares war upon the Empire.
Celes Chere is made general in order to maintain peace within the Empire.
Celes leads her army into Maranda and takes it. (This is said in the game).

22 NYG
The Returners are founded by former High Priest of Cronos, Banon . (Banon's Health command was called 'Pray' in the Japanese version, and I always regarded him as a highly spiritual person, with the Pandora's Box legend and all. Might as well make him an Imperial Priest)
Doma declares war upon the Empire. (It's hinted at in Cyan's Dreams that Doma was at war with the Empire long before the Empire attacked in in the game).
Figaro secretly allies itself with the Returners.

23 NYG (What follows is in-game events)
Gestahl sends a small army to Narshe, and acts against a pact of peace. Narshe does not declare war on the Empire, however.
Figaro's cover of alliance with the Empire is broken. Figaro openly allies itself with the Returners, and South Figaro is taken by Kefka.
General Celes Chere is falsely accused of treason, and is to be executed. She escapes and joins the Returners.
Kefka takes over the battle of Doma. He ignores the rules of war and uses poison to kill nearly all people living in Doma.
Another revolt in Albrook is surpressed.
An army led by Kefka openly attacks Narshe. The battle is lost and Narhse openly allies itself with the Returners.
A small group of Returners sneaks in the Impirial MagiTek Research Facility, stealing the test subjects and destroying the facility. Celes
Chere is captured in this act, and is imprisoned.
The Returners attempt to talk to the Espers behind the sealed gate, but fail. Several Espers are sent on the loose. They destroy Vector.
Gestahl pretends to stop his war.
The Returners seek out the Espers, aided by Celes Chere and General Leo.
The Espers are prepared to talk, but are all killed by Kefka.
Kefka ignores specific orders from Emperor Gestahl and kills General Leo.
Kefka and Gestahl send the Esper world flying. After reaching the Statues, Emperor Gestahl attempts to kill Kefka. He fails. Kefka kills Gestahl and moves the Statues. The world becomes undone.


Well, that was a rant. Hope you enjoy it...and feel free to debate over it.


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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Whoo, this is going to be a killer thread. Let's see...
I figured the Empire found out about magic and the Espers through records left behind from the War of the Magi. Everyone knew that magic was a "bad" thing because of the result of that war, and scholars and historians then must have left behind something more than "magic is bad, don't use it". Old maps could show the location of the Sealed Cave. Journals, letters, and military documents could detail how the war was played out, what strategies were used, how they got to the Sealed Cave in the first place, etc., etc. Gestahl must have somehow gotten a hold of this information - archaeological excavation, well-placed contacts, bribery, maybe even found it in his reading material while sitting on the john one morning - and the rest is history.
As for question #1... the FFVI world turned to technological development sometime after the point where everyone decided that magic was a "bad" thing. Thus, in order to allow society to advance without resorting to a quick fix of Bolt3 to keep things going, they had a mass Industrial Revolution. As can be expected, though, not all regions can industrialize at the same rate and to the same extent (kind of like how Britain spearheaded the Industrial Revolution but Russia never really industrialized until after they got rid of the Czar).
By the time the Empire's assault on the Esper world takes place, Narshe, Figaro and Vector are highly industrialized regions. They've also got the money to invest in technological development; Vector is the Empire capital, Figaro is a long-standing kingdom abound with engineering geniuses and allied with the Empire (at least until Edgar takes the throne), and after the three seperate scenario thing in the WoB, the Narshe Elder says something vaguely along the lines of "So you want to combine Narshe's money with whatever the Returners have to fight against the Empire?" (correct me if I'm wrong, please) to Banon and Arvis, implying that Narshe has money - and a sizeable amount of it. It works, them being the only major mining town around; the Empire's gotta get their metal from somewhere.
As for the rest of the world, perhaps they didn't have the resources or the desire to go as far as Narshe, Vector, and Figaro. The smaller towns like Kohlingen and such probably weren't rich enough to industrialize on their own, and so just bummed smaller bits of technology off of the nearest major industrial power. Albrook, South Figaro and Nikeah are port towns, so any investment they make would go towards bettering trade and merchantry. Jidoor is full of rich people, but they're all snotty aristocrats who would rather chill at the opera house, blow 500000 gold on talking chocobos at auctions, and buy possessed paintings of women than industrialize. Mobliz is pretty much cut off from the rest of the world with the Veldt to the west and the sea to the east. And Zozo... is like, the super slum. What can I say.
Ehh, that's enough out of me for now. I'm a history major, it's my job to ramble about things that nobody really pays attention to.
And that is quite an impressive timeline, Djibriel. What does NYG mean?

This post has been edited by LadyRed on 17th May 2004 14:08

LadyRed, your observations are excellent. I hope you'll keep active in this thread and stay with us! You'll be invaluable.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

NYG means New Years under Gestahl the Thirth. In my personal version as stored as a Word document, I edited it into YGIII (pronounce: Y G Three) which stands for Years under Gestahl the Thirth. I just haven't updated the on-line version yet. I had trouble picking just a starter year, so I designed this. I mean, if Jesus Christ deserves his own timeline, why shouldn't Gestahl get one? From his point of view, anyway.

Your description of the events is pretty impressive, and only has a single flaw in it: it's stated in the Japanese Version that Narshe is a Coal Mine City instead of a Mithril Mine or something along those lines. Ofcourse, now there's no source of metal at all...but there are no farms, water supplies or police/etc. either. I don't think we can judge the game on it, though. I just can't stand people bitching about "there are only four houses in a city" or stuff like that.





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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Ahh, whoops, my bad. The coal mine makes more sense, as a friend of mine pointed out to me earlier that the prologue said steam power was the new craze. But still, Gestahl's super-impressive Full Metal Palace and the Magitek factory have to come from somewhere, right?
Isn't it "third", or are you spelling it as "thirth" for story reasons?
And yeah, I'd rather have my four houses and shops in a city than a bunch of civilians getting in my way when I've got a martial arts master, an assassin, a samurai and a former Imperial general who need to buy weapons. =Þ

Eh...yeah (cough). That was no consistent language error from my side. That was indeed a subtle enhanchement of the story from my side, since why would our world and the world of Final Final VI have the same language? Right?

(angel of my left shoulder): You know that you made the same mistake for years now? It's time you 'fess up. Be truthfull and you shall be rewarded.

(demon of my right shoulder): Nah. Keep your dignity. It's not your fault that you're no native. You can get away with this. As long as you don't post this conversation we're having, that is. But we both know you're not that stupid.

Me: Yeah, well, story enhanchement from my side. (Man...they're totally buying it...)



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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Don't forget guys, the War of Magi destroyed everything pretty much, but so much time has passed that most people think that it is just legend and myth now, remember Locke talks about how he thought they were just storys his grandmother told him. I figure all this technology was around during the War, but was just destroyed along with everything else. Then as time progresses people rediscover things like Steam power and such. The Empire has probably been around long before Gestahl, it is just another nation like Figaro or Narshe, but like any powerful nation, power always desires more power, so they build up an army and begin to bully around smaller communities. I don't think the Empire actually made any moves at conquest until the time in which the game takes place because the concept of the Empire being an evil nation seems to be kinda controversal, probably commoners don't really know that the Empire is building a giant army. As for your last question i think it was probably had alot to do with not wanting war, no country wants to be the one that starts war, especially since the Empire wasn't openly doing anything "evil" yet, how could you get the populous behind a war like that? The attitude of the Elder of Narshe seemed to be that of denial, which is also common when it comes to the end of peace. I think the Empire is a pretty normal nation up until the attacks in the game, I believe it is just kinda biased in the game. All you ever see of the Empire is it's army, and it seems like nowhere else has any sort of force, but Narshe, Figaro, and Doma all have armys of their own also, it just doesn't focus on them. Well, alright, I have blabbed on enough.

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"...Chivalry is nothing more than the wilingness to treat a woman well."

LingaringBell

So how would you explain the fact that several cities on the Southern Continent have been smashed for a rather long time?

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

How exactly do you know they were smashed for a long time?

Edit

My two cents. Empire is a one of the larger nations of the world. They are ruled by a rather power hungry emporor by the name of Gestalhl, who by means of research discovers that Magic might really exists. He and a small expeditionary team indeed find the Sealed Gate. With the help of a brilliant man by the name of Cid, the Emporor learns how to harness their magical power and uses it to empower himself and his armies. Now he can finally start to dominate all the nations of the world. The game picks up just about here.

It could also be possible that Gestahl becomes Emporor after the sealed gate incident. I don't know for sure by I don't think they specifically refer to him as Emporor during that scene

This post has been edited by The Ancient on 17th May 2004 18:52

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

By a "long time", I talking about a couple of years. And why? Because the towns are crouded by people who're unhappy with the situation, but are getting used to it. Merchants bribing Imperial Soldiers, those kind of things.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

It could still be less than two years. And countries such as Narshe and Figaro, could still consider themselves as neutral or allies with the empire even after they occupy nations or cities on the southern continent. After all, countries typically are hesitant to go to war until they are under direct threat. You can see this even in real life history (and current events).

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Quote

Jidoor is full of rich people, but they're all snotty aristocrats who would rather chill at the opera house, blow 500000 gold on talking chocobos at auctions, and buy possessed paintings of women than industrialize.

Yet they sustain their wealth despite the increasingly industrial world. I always figured Jidoor's wealth was amassed from other locations (families who had invested / become wealthy in other areas, but moved to Jidoor to be with other wealthy, snooty folk. They are too snooty to do any labor of their own, but probably control the trade or industrial production in other regions of the world.)

Just my two cents.... Jidoor is my favorite town in FFVI .

This post has been edited by Stephen the Third on 17th May 2004 20:26

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Je ne t'aime plus,
Mon amour...

Je ne t'aime plus,
Tous les jours...

I don't really consider Figaro "neutral" when it comes to the Empire. They're secretly collaborating with their enemies (the Returners) while pretending to be allies with them. Either way, the word "neutral" doesn't come to mind.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Narshe = neutral
Figaro = allied

Both nations and terms were mentioned in that sentence, and that is how they are indicated (at least outwardly) in regards to their political affiliation with the empire. Don't pick at hairs with my sentence structure.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I have a story of my own, though I won't give it away just yet. But supposedly, steam engines were used for the technology before Magitek. And I said that Kefka came in first, but that's just me (Kefka seems older than Leo does.)

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I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

Quote (Stephen the Third @ 17th May 2004 15:25)

Quote

Jidoor is full of rich people, but they're all snotty aristocrats who would rather chill at the opera house, blow 500000 gold on talking chocobos at auctions, and buy possessed paintings of women than industrialize.

Yet they sustain their wealth despite the increasingly industrial world. I always figured Jidoor's wealth was amassed from other locations (families who had invested / become wealthy in other areas, but moved to Jidoor to be with other wealthy, snooty folk. They are too snooty to do any labor of their own, but probably control the trade or industrial production in other regions of the world.)

Just my two cents.... Jidoor is my favorite town in FFVI .

Good point. Families in Jidoor could well be living it up thanks to well-placed business connections, investments in Narshe's mines, a hand in the trade routes running through the port towns, and likely even shares in Magitek production (*dun dun dunnnn!*). The place is like a giant country club. =Þ

Does Kefka seem older? Leo always struck me as the mature one. Kefka seems like a giant kid who wouldn't settle down and take his Ritalin like a good little boy...

Quote

Does Kefka seem older? Leo always struck me as the mature one. Kefka seems like a giant kid who wouldn't settle down and take his Ritalin like a good little boy...

Kefka seems younger cause hes frickin MAD! Leo was supposed to be a handsome, almost Brenden Frasier-like person from what I've known (though hes not white) But you never know, Kefka might be younger...

--------------------

I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

Quote

[Jidoor] is like a giant country club. =Þ

Hey now, Lady Red, there is no shame in that game. As a country clubber, I can tell you that it is quite nice and relaxing to be away from actual stressful, labor intensive environments from time to time.

Anyway, back on topic: Kefka, in my opinion--an opinion that you all know as I have frequently posted about my adoration of his character, displays the persona of a bratty, stuck-up aristocrat who must always get his way. He spits on those below him (remember the "Ahem.... there is SAND on my boots" scene, anyone?) while whining and throwing temper tantrums at anything that may possibly foul up his plans. He seems to overly assert his superiority by lavishly dressing in as many ornate garments as possible--almost as if to say, "Tee hee, I can afford all these expensive materials and wear them all at once! Sure, I look ridiculous, but I'm showing off my wealth and superior position in society!"

I'm sure that before his Magitek infusion, he still had these attributes within his personality. I think that the problematic infusion merely brought out more primal, violent outcomes within his tantrums and amorality. Brilliantly done character, in my opinion.

Anyway, with no real source of the Empire's background, it is hard to debate. However, I see the Final Fantasy VI world as one that is still recovering from the disastrous War of the Magi. As a Phoenix rebirths itself from the ashes, the World slowly refashions itself into its prior level of flourishment. Perhaps the Empire excavated, under Gestahl's reign, ruins which provided them with the foundation of their magitek technology. I actually recall Gestahl saying something, when they first barge into the Esper world in Terra's flashback, about having known where the gate was due to insciptions or what not. If someone else can remember his exact wording, please provide it. Utilizing magitek technology as a basis for Vector's advancement, it is no surprise that Gestahl's Empire would be at the forefront of industrialism. Fueled by this technology, they could easily surpass and conquer whomever they wished.

These are all just ideas floating around in my head, though. Not sure if they hold any real validity.

This post has been edited by Stephen the Third on 17th May 2004 22:31

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Je ne t'aime plus,
Mon amour...

Je ne t'aime plus,
Tous les jours...

Not saying that there's any shame in it, Stephen. From time to time is nice, of course.
As for Kefka, I do agree that he's a great character. He's just all over-the-top madcap insanity all the time with a great theme song to boot. I'm not overly fond of his laugh though. Thankfully I haven't had to hear it at all throughout the WoR. =Þ
Just as an aside on Magitek infusion... I know with Celes they infused her right after birth, but would that have been standard procedure, do you think? Could differences in infusion techniques or age of infusion have any affect on the subject's magical power (i.e. Celes when Locke finds her compared to Gestahl and Kefka)? If Kefka and Celes, as Imperial Generals, underwent Magitek infusion procedures, did Leo as well (as it doesn't seem that way judging from the abilities you have access to when fighting Kefka as Leo)? If not, why? And why would Gestahl be okay with that? Oh, the questions, the questions....

No, the game tells you that Leo refused a Magic infusion. One of the citizens in Vector tells you.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

Quote

If Kefka and Celes, as Imperial Generals, underwent Magitek infusion procedures, did Leo as well (as it doesn't seem that way judging from the abilities you have access to when fighting Kefka as Leo)?

Leo, actually, refused to be subject to Magitek infusion. I am not sure of his reasoning, though I do know that he in fact was not. Throughout the game (or, shall I say, first half of the game ), Leo displays a strict focus on morality and honor. My best guess is that he found it despicably dishonorable (yay for alliteration) to drain power from a defeated enemy.

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Je ne t'aime plus,
Mon amour...

Je ne t'aime plus,
Tous les jours...

Quote (Tryscal The Great @ 17th May 2004 18:26)

No, the game tells you that Leo refused a Magic infusion. One of the citizens in Vector tells you.

Does he? Ack, must've missed him...

Yeah, it kinda shows Leo's character by that. Unlike Kefka or the Emperor, Leo would rather use his own wit and strength rather than magic. Leo's cool

--------------------

I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

interesting thread i like it well i think the technology would be naturally rediscovered after the long streach of time after the war of the magi, the empire was "allied" with the country Figaro, the empire took over everything else that stood in its way, well, if gesthal had fathers named by his name before him, then the empire probibly exsisted before him, the researchers found out the magic existid and the "fairy tales" as some of the people put it were around after the war of the magi, the empire was taking over the countries left and right, you come into the story when he is ready to take over figaro and is trying to take over narshe. this were very good questions and i put my theroys in.

Quote

love... such a meaningless word...

Bebi vegeta, does someone need a hug? What a depressing, unfortunate signature.

Anyway, back on topic. Does anyone know where exactly Gestahl finds the location of Esper World? That would probably give us a source of foundation to base our theories around (I can't remember what he said when he barges in during the flashback... something about a book or some scriptures, I think).

Furthermore, bebi vegeta, the whole multiple generations of Gestahls is part of Djibriel's fan fiction, and is not founded within the game–therefore it cannot be seen as adequate evidence that the Empire existed before him.

Personally, I think that the Empire is the government that rose from Vector under Gestahl's magitek technology. It COULD have been called the Empire previously, but I feel that the Empire really wasn't a huge threat until Gestahl assumed sovereignty and started to devote resources to magitek infusion and technology. Mainly because it seems as if the bulk of its invasion / conquest occur during the game. I feel as if Gestahl lifted Vector into a period of high industrialism and then became power hungry and turned into an expansionist.

--------------------

Je ne t'aime plus,
Mon amour...

Je ne t'aime plus,
Tous les jours...

Quote

Furthermore, bebi vegeta, the whole multiple generations of Gestahls is part of Djibriel's fan fiction, and is not founded within the game–therefore it cannot be seen as adequate evidence that the Empire existed before him.

Yeah, I second that. There's no evidence in the game concerning Gestahl's family history or even a hint in that direction.

Furthermore (and correct me if I'm wrong), can the term 'Empire'/'Emperor'/etc. not only be used when there's an expanding force described? That would mean that the Empire could only be called 'the Empire' after it started taking over the Southern Continent.

The way I see it: The Vectorian citizens are maddinly positive about Gestahl/Leo/Cid/the whole bunch. That means that they - in Vectorion eyes - are way better then the preceeding rulers. That indicates a massive change. I'd say that there used to be the Kingdom/Indepent City/take your pick Vector, and then Gesthal took hold of the "throne" and Vector became the Empire.

Finally:

Quote

GESTAHL: Aha!  We've finally found it!  Those ancient writings told us of this world, and described the awesome magical properties of these beasts!

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Quote (Stephen the Third @ 19th May 2004 02:49)

[font=Century Gothic]

Quote

love... such a meaningless word...

Bebi vegeta, does someone need a hug? What a depressing, unfortunate signature.

no, not really, it is an problem i was having with a girl a day i wrote that and havent changed it, oh back to the subject.

i was writing that as i looked through the thread and was basing it off what everybody else said. it doesnt matter if it is true or not, it is just interesting to read everybody elses thoughts on a subject.

Wow, I leave for a while, come back, and this topic as gotten pretty big. Thanks, guys!



Personally, I feel that the Empire has been around for a while, but the whole scene changed when worldwide tension increased with the rise of the Figaro and Doma kingdoms. It's obvious the Empire saw them as a threat, since they were responsible for the death of it's former king. Of course, there were homeland threats as well, with Miranda, Tzen, and Albrook close to Vector. Thing is, it's interesting how the Empire is so more advanced the anywhere else.

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

I think its as simple as a power hungry emperor. Ghestal found out about magic, tried researching it, and when he got results and was corrupted by the power, tried taking over the world. He does want to create a kingdom of magic...

I feel it is a fantastic story line btw, and love how the game even explains how magic came about... goddesses being banished to our pathetic realm (which also suggests they were much weaker than others of their kind!).

This post has been edited by SuperManBoy on 27th May 2004 13:01

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"Look at me! I'm a receptionist! G'fa ha ha!" Quote Ultros