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Pick the choice that best goes along with how you feel about them overall. I give you two answer choices so we can get a definitive answer, yes or no.

I think they're useless because of poor tuning. They look like ultimate attacks and yet they barely hurt even random monsters. What's up with that? These things scream novelty. I never hear people talking about how they blew away such-and-such enemy with a summon. "OMG Bolt Fist rocks man!" ... no, you just don't hear stuff like that. Are they supposed to be very strong? Well let's have a look at balance.

Summon: Bolt Fist (Ramuh)
Power: 50
MP Cost: 25
Can't be dodged

Spell: Bolt 2
Power: 61
MP Cost: 22

Both attacks split damage among multiple enemies. Well what's this? I thought summons were supposed to be your ultimate attacks to blow away the enemy. It certainly looks like this should be the case. Your characters dissappear and a big creature appears on the screen to perform this massive full screen attack. Yet Bolt Fist is more or less the same as Bolt 2? Let's look at another one.

Summon: Tri-Dazer (Tritoch)
Power: 110
MP Cost: 68
Can't be dodged

Spell: Bolt 3
Power: 120
MP Cost: 53

The "Can't be dodged" property must be very important! I don't get it. I guess we need to first define what a summon should be. What should a summon be? An attack that rivals that of a completely learned spell from the esper in question, or an ultimate attack that's above and beyond your ordinary spell?

I speak from personal experience when I say that summons are much better when tuned up. In Expert Version 2 I doubled the MP cost of summons and doubled their power output. The result is summon attacks that consume a lot of juice yet deliver a very powerful blow to the enemies. This is the way it should be in my opinion. What do you think?

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FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

I completely agree.

The only Summons attack I ever use is Bismark because the Water element isnt available elsewhere (who would ever use the Trident? better weapons are available long before you get that thing). And even then its use is limited. The only real good place to use that one is versus the Cranes, which are weak versus Water. Other than that, I dont attack with Espers, its just not efficient. Characters have access to lots of ID attacks and they are all superior to the Summons. FF7 did a better job with Summon attacks than FF6 did.

I agree that summons have definitely taken a step down from the "where would my party be if Rydia didn't have Titan/Leviathan/Bahamut" days, but by the end of FF6 I actually think that the effects of the more powerful espers are quite useful. I use Palidor, Raiden, Starlet, Golem, and a couple others frequently. They were the backbone of the party in FF4, and now I just use them situationally.

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Sabin: ... to Mom... and to Figaro.

"A true classic never goes out of style!"

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain..."

I rarely use them. The only time I do is if im bored. Instead of the boring attack and kill, summon a couple espers.

I used to use Stray alot on the chickenlips near vector. Make sure I have float, the casted quake while confused, so they killed themselves.

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Yeah, I barely post.

Quote (i90east @ 23rd March 2004 13:38)

The "Can't be dodged" property must be very important!

That's just horrific wording on Lord J's part. The property should really be called Unblockable since dodging is still possible (Jump, anyone?).

Anyway, yes, they're semi-useless. It's not like if you ignored summon spells the entire game, you'd ever notice.

But Bahamut is nice to use for Slot masters, since he would be the WOB version of Ultima.

Other than that, Palidor may be the only truly underrated summon since the power that drives that spell is the entire party's ability to deal physical damage. It's not as cheap as GG/Offering since to max its effects you'd need to dedicate four members to the attack, but the effects can be far more horrific. Four members plus four Dragon Horns equals eight to sixteen hits on the enemy party. Hell, just having four members means four hits to the enemy party. Now add in stuff like Tempest (not wholly endorsed, read the Glitches and Bugs guide), spears, and the fact that your non-Palidor-casting members can combo their attacks with the Palidor-cocerced jump attack so that when they land they immediately launch another attack, and the amount of hits you could get are incredible indeed. Think of it this way; One guy decides to cast Palidor and is guaranteed to move before the other members do. Let's say he has a Dragon Horn, as do the other three, but they also have the Gem Box, the Offering, and the DragoonBoots. Caster lands for 2-4 hits, Gem Box guy lands for 2-4 hits but immediately deals out something like Ultima/Quick which in turn allows him to deal four more Ultimas, guy with the Offering lands for 2-4 hits then Fights for four more hits, then the last guy lands for 2-4 hits and jumps again leading to another 2-4 hits when he comes back. You could even make one of those people Gogo and have two guaranteed Palidors before making the combination strikes. Overpowered? Hell yes it is. I'm just saying that if you're fanatical about five Ultimas or Offering, that you're missing out on the most powerful combination attack in the game by ignoring Palidor.

K, I'm done ranting.

This post has been edited by Master ZED on 23rd March 2004 20:58

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

the only espers i use are ragnorak(for metamorphis to get rare items) and bahamut(sunflare is the best cause it looks awesome). other than that, ive never used some espers before. i only learn magic from em;'

I do agree that the damage potential for the espers (summons ) were in fact stunted, however what they gave up in damage they made up in diveristy and creativity. And plus they just looked kickass. Palidor is a prime example and so is phantom. Summons that do more than just damage. However I thought Crusader was a pretty good damaging one, as well as bahamut, but then again I havent played FF6 in a good while.

I only use 'em if the character has Bahamut (for that 50%+ HP) esper equipped and hasn't learned Ultima yet. Then, it's my most powerful spell for that character. As far as I know, that is.

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Wow. 1,000 posts.

I miss you all now that I'm in boarding school! ;_;

The only summons I've ever used are Ramuh and Phantom. Ramuh for frying Ultros before I get Bolt 2, and Phantom for certain parts in my CES clear.

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My soul is bound to the Mistress of the Afterlife, and my fealty is to her always. So let's just hope she doesn't use it as one of her ten daily meals.

I wouldnt say the're completly useless but since the mid way point of the two choices wasnt there i picked them to be useless.

The main i reason i chose this was cause i never used them....
And that was because when i looked during battle at casting a summon i saw the mp cost and stupidly thought i could only summon that many times before i lost the esper so i just stayed away from summoning, stupid huh?

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Link: "What is it?"
Mario: "It's coin, what the hell does it look like?"
Link: "Well.... What do you do with it?"
Mario: "You buy lives with them."
Link: ".... Isn't that slavery?"
~Mario/Link crossover comic~

I intitially never bothered with summons until I realised the MP costs. As you said, i90east, compare it with their respective spells and there ain't much difference. And since they're ESPERS, they're supposed to be uber-powerful!!! Thus, they would be by right more value-for-MP since their damage dealt is greater per MP-cost.

Apparently, however, everything that I have assumed is an unfortunate misconception. That's realy sad, consiering that you can only use them once per battle. Yo'd expect them to give more than just eye-candy!!

The upside, however, is that you can inflict multiple status effects on yourselves, like with the Phantom Esper. Other than that, however, they're TOTALLY useless!!!

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Student of CCS, Grandmaster of Alternative Literature and Musical Passionista at your service!!!

There seems to be a bit of confusion as to the exact nature of this thread.
I thought the emphasis was supposed to be on attack Summons with a plain old damage attack: Ramuh, Shiva, Ifrit, Bahamut, Bismark, etc. My earlier comments were directed towards those Espers.

Regarding "Other" Espers. I use the Carbunkl, Fenrir, Golem, Phantom, Siren, Stray and Zoneseek very often. On a normal playthru, once you get Stray, Edgar's usefulness declines considerably. Ive toyed with Palidor, but very rarely does the monster waste his attack when my party is HIDEn. I never found it particularly advantageous. In fact many times one character would come back, attack and then get slammed with some heavy-hitting attack or worse yet a debilitating status attack like Muddle, Zombie or Sleep. Maybe it was bad luck on my part, but I always felt the monster had the upper hand when my characters trickled back onto the screen.

Furthermore, I equip Golem, Zoneseek and Stray on every team that I send out. Note: Golem is more effective the higher the caster's HP. Ultimate defense: Golem+BigGuard is the optimal defense in every combat in WOR. I am also anxious to try out Demon Eye versus the Presenter and try to get 2 Dragon Claws.

well, I'm not one to look at stats much, so I used the attack espers all the time. Now that i see the comparisons I doubt I'll use them much anymore, Thanks for the tip i90!

as for the tunning up the espers powers for Expert Version 2? I think thats a great idea! keep it up!

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<Nealio> Seymour sounds like evil Winnie the Pooh

I voted that they weren't useless, but I don't use them constantly. I use Phantom a lot. It's one of the more useful espers in the game, such as if you're levelling up on the Doma continent in the WoR, or if you're fighting Atma Weapon on the floating continent. Also, while you're learning the spells, Ramuh is good to summon if you don't have Bolt 2, and Tritoch is good to summon if you don't have Bolt 3, etc (Though Tritoch seems to heal a lot of enemies, IIRC).

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

I do like to use Phanto because the full pt Vanish helped with the physical bosses and Fenrir is my FAV. so i summoned it often. The ones that casted positive status effects that you cant cast on your whole pt at once (like reflect) were used whenever i had them equipted to someone in my pt but unfortunatly they usualy teach crappy spells so i didnt often have them.

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There is a time and a place for everything, and I am niether

Sot of Useless, I just used them for there Magic, though I did use Sraphim and Starlet and Bahamut often. Same with Palidor.

I use only Golem and Ragnarok, because I find the others too useless. But I like the stat boosts. Odin rocks (speed +1 on Locke in a low-level game + running shoes means...). But I don't use them for their attacks.

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«À l'aventure compagnons, je suis parti vers l'horizon! J'aurais mieux fait de rester au lit, ce donjon, il est pourri!» - Pen of Chaos

I never summoned espers, except to watch the animation or to Ragnarok-morph an enemy in hope of getting something nice (although it usually turns out to be dried meat). First, the summons are weaker than I'd like them to be, but that's not the main reason. The main reason is that you can only summon them once (unlike older games), and they don't stay on screen (unlike newer games). So they're good for exactly one use, offensively.

My principal use of espers was for learning magic. I actually keep tabs of who has learned what magic, and most of my characters (except Umaro and Gogo, of course) have learned the full repertoire of spells.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

This is probably the easiest poll...EVER. I mean come on Espers useful??? The "best" esper in the game hurts you what is up with that. Everytime I use Ragnorak I get a frickin tonic. Golem and Carbuncle are the only ones that could be useful but they are not even if you are strong enough. Hell I could cast a Bolt1 and it would do more damage then Ramuh. There is no point to espers besides learning spells.

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

Think of learning spells from the Summons as "Leveling up" with magic.
Thet could all be weak since it is not the actual espers that attack, but their Spirits/ghosts.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

- Yes. Completely. I never use them.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 2nd April 2004 20:52

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
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Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

i find them completely useless, to me there sorta like collector items. and i dont know how many times i've played FFVI, but i dont remember ever using all the espers before

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Why does it cry?
Caught in a web
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FF6 addicts unite! wanna RP?

I use some of the summons fairly often. Odin for killing Hovers in the desert with weak parties to get EXP/AP, Bahamut for excellent damage, Carbunkle for the handy reflect on all the party, and Phoenix when I'm in a jam. That's about it though, if the summons were more powerful I would use the heck out of them. I don't use Ragnorak because Illumina rocks and Ultima can be learned from the Paladin shield.

This post has been edited by Shivy on 3rd April 2004 00:28

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"I was using a metaphor. Someone shut him up before I do it with a knife."- Black Mage, 8-bit Theatre

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Think of this. Summon spells are unaffected by reflect. They are an area attack (cept for mayb ragnarock which i havent used yet cuz i wanted illumna...which does indeed kick ass) Are they useless? to a point. But i still use em. Mostly pheonix phantom bahamut maduin and one other. cant think of hte name but it flies by and picks ure party up...then later on they come down like in the jump attack

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| THE INSANE ONE HAS SPOKEN |
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http://www.anzwers.org/free/vengeance/

The one that makes your party do a jump attack is Palidor.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I don't think they are completly useless, sometimes it can be more about the fact that they just look cool, but in terms of effect usually the espers that do something other then damage are rather effective, Starlet, Carbunkel, Golem, etc., etc. I think why they don't do very much damage was because they weren't supposed to be "Summoned" monsters, which are seen as gods or beings of deity strength and stature. Espers are just magical beasts, if they were uber powerful they wouldn't of had any problem fighting off the empire.

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"...Chivalry is nothing more than the wilingness to treat a woman well."

LingaringBell

the only game that summons have real use in is final fantasy X. Aside from that, they all suck (except for Knights of Round from final fantasy 7)

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kweh!

In Final Fantasy IV and V summons were quite powerful. In both of them Bahamut was nearly the most powerful attack in the game, with a relatively low MP cost. In Final Fantasy VI, however, the esper attacks are practically useless. In almost every case you can find a normal spell with the same power for less MP. With espers only useable once a battle I would expect them to be useful, but they aren't.

final fantasy viii had good summons, u could even make them attack better with some trick, i think it was press select and press triangle when there is no x

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THE LIZARDSSS SHALL EATSSS YOU

I heartily agree with Master ZED. Yes, while most Espers are useless (even though I love using Alexander for looks) besides Odin and Raiden, Palidor is often looked over. ZED did shed new light on it for me, citing a zillion attack combinations. I usually used Palidor, however, when I tried something crazy...like tackling Kefka's Tower under Level 30. One of THE best moments in video game history for me was when I was fighting Atma. Well, under Level 30, this is one tough customer. Thanks to Life 3 I managed to hang on to the fight for a while. After a long time, though, I had exhausted everything - and I mean EVERYTHING (down to the last Phoenix Down and Tincture). All four characters were alive (although extremely weak - down into the 100 - 500 HP range), and Shadow had MP but no curative spells, BUT he had Palidor equipped. Well, Atma gears up for an Ultima spell (you know, when he lights up). OK, given my situation, I'm fucked. As a last resort, I call upon Palidor, seeing that's all I can do really anyways besides pull off a lame attack with a crappy knife. The bird picked me up, and Ultima MISSED when Atma cast it! My guys jumped down and killed him!! It was so wonderful!

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SPEKKIO: "GRRR...That was most embarrassing!"