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Through all of the years of my life, I have noticed a substantial amout of social double standards and unfairness, for lack of a better word. Just recently, my media teacher brought to my attention, that for a woman to make it in the music industry, she has to be attractive. Men don't have to be, so why women?
Why is it, that most men say they want their women to have a sense of self pride, or at least not being self-downing, but then afterwards some would specify that they want their women skinny? All that will do is remove what self-confidence said person has, and make them paranoid about how they look and whether they're pretty or not. I admit that some/most women feel that they want their men to be something as well, but it is emphasized so much in the American media. When you look through magazines, you see scantily clad, skinny, busty women. Most men are fully clothed. Why is it that women are still viewed like sexy busty personal-use objects, when men are usually displayed as important money-making people? Some things really perplex me, and this is certainly one of them. I figure if a guy doesn't have to be pretty to be a singer, why should a woman? Not all male actors are handsome, or even remotely attractive. Why are most females? I'm not even going by personal preferences. Usually famous actresses are very pretty. I think it's stupid and by saying that ugly girls can't be musicians makes me sad! My teacher had a group of friends in a band that she was managing that wanted to make a record, and the man that my teacher was seeing to see about a record, said NOT to because the main singer was female, and over 30. WTF?
Why are there double standards like this? It just dashes peoples hopes and dreams if they aren't perfect.
That's just my opinion.
Thoughts?

This post has been edited by Hikaroo on 23rd February 2004 04:37

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..DDR..Maine..
..Hikaroo-chan no Deviantart..

<Tiddles> And I love how people suggest "Why not call it my great name?????" when their name is clearly the worst thing ever.
<Tiddles> "How about ; Mozilla Xplorer & Mozilla Xpress."
<Tiddles> How about you die in a fire?

I agree completely. The double standard is a horrible, stupid thing, and it turns many unsuspecting young females in anorexics, or worse.

Most people don't seem to realize just how bad it is. But if you've ever gone through grade school as a female more then 10 pounds overweight, you know. >_> Unless of course the weight was muscle and you beat up people, but that's different.

The problem seems to be more pronounced in the US, as well. I find when I'm in Canada, at least at my age, it's normal to be a few pounds over, and people accept that. But in the US, there's such a mixed message. "Be pencil thin!" "Be tanned in the winter!" "Eat greasy burgers at burger king!" "Eat a tub of ice cream!"

And the clothing stores! Just try fitting into pants at your typical young person's clothing store. It's enough to make a girl depressed.

Craziness.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Before i start, i need to say one thing:

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Hikaroo:
"sexy busty personal-use objects"

This is the best, whatever the hell it is, thing, i have ever herd. This is going in my sig.

The sad thing is, there are idiots in the world. Because of this, a double standard will almost always be their. Women have a double standard in terms of looks, teenagers have double standard's in terms of looks [ever have a mall cop follow you and your friends around?]. As long as idiots have control of how we see things, the double standard will remain.

This post has been edited by Twisted_Freak on 23rd February 2004 05:06

Not to sound angry, but there is also a double standard for men as well.

Do you know I have an ulcer, and I'm only 19. Because I didn't want to seem unmanly and cry, or talk about my problems.There is also a little problem I have with the dating system. If man takes out a woman, his is expectied to pay, even if they both work. Isn't that inequality. And I also cannot get a job, because I'm either too young or,in several places, I was told I did not meet ther quota of women or minorites. This wouldn't be so bad, but I need a job because my mother was fired from her job because she has M.S. and my father has been working himself to death to support our family alone.

I know that went off on a tangent, and I ranted a little. For that I apologize. But you have to realize that there are double standard for everyone. So, let's not limit this to female double standards please.

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Love and Peace- Vash, the Stampede

If Life kicks you long enough, eventually he'll get tired and walk away- Drew Carry

Double standards??? Lord I am sick of hearing about this. The reason cause there are not so attractive men in show business and hot women is cause it sells. If it works then they will keep doing it, if it doesn't they will change it. It is as simple as that. I agree with i4v about how menhave double standards too, especially about having to pay for dates. Now I am in college and in less then a year, a teache,r so I will NEVER have money. But nevertheless I always have to pay. That is why I don't go on expensive dates anymore cause I can't afford it anymore. We can all complain about double standards as much as we like but IT WILL NEVER END. oh well

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

Oh, I'm sorry, do you boys live in the 1950s? >_>

Women pay for dates too, nowadays. If you're going out with a girl and she expects you to pay for everything, than you are going out with one cheap, old fashioned lady. Most girls don't do that anymore.

Ever hear of going dutch?

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Of course they offer to pay but it is still OUR job to pay. And personally I would rather have a girl that is old fashioned compared to most "girls" nowadays.

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

Women are NOT the only ones who are subject to double standards. It's all I hear about, but it's just more proof about how many double standards are out there.

Take a look at the same TV you're watching with all the female double standards. Now look at the TV ads. Ever notice a theme showing how men are always displayed as being incompetent and overall idiots? They're usually portrayed as dunces, untrustworthy people who don't deserve to be treated with common courtesy. They forget anniversaries, they forget birthdays, and they are stereotypically shown as sports fanatics.

Women generally have an advantage in relationships, especially in this era where men have been brainwashed by feminism into believing that any show of assertiveness on their part equals injury to the woman.

When a man cheats on a girlfriend or his wife, he is branded by women as a creep and a user. When a woman cheats on her man, she's often been seen as a victim who was compelled to do it only because she needed to free herself from a bad relationship and discover her unfulfilled needs. He's a total jerk while she's on a journey of self-expression and self-discovery.

And let's not forget the whole same-sex idea. Lesbians are seen in a very positive light, whereas many gay men are persecuted, beaten, or even killed because of their sexual preference. They are shown in a horribly negative light.

i had some good points to lay down here, but i just read evileyes post and he put them all out there for me. so following his lead:

the stupid sports fanatic isnt quite what most guys wanna be portrayed as, but its ok and even humorous to be looked at like that, and honestly, that image is to men what some skankass girl walking around doing everyone is to women. one is of a sexual nature, and one isnt, but that doesnt mean that theyre not both degrading and insulting.

but why are women so often portrayed in a sexual manner, and men arent?

walk down the street and look at the men. thats why. hell, if you wanna see some hairy dude walk around with no pants on, just go to my uncle chris's house. 5'5", 300 pounds, and more hair than i care to look at on one person. some men just shouldnt be scantily clad.

i know a lot of straight girls, not to mention any guy reading this post right now who agree with me that the female body is aesthetically a more attractive thing to look at than the male body. to quote elaine from seinfeld- "it's utilitarian. the hair, the lumps, its for getting around. its like a jeep."

but hell if you wanna see me walk around in my underwear, hey whatever man, thats cool with me. of course that would work better if i actually WORE underwear.

my undergarment habits arent so nice to hear about are they? you should get down on your knees and thank god for a double standard, because otherwise, thats all i would ever talk about. and im pretty sure the thought of me just bouncin and flopping around doesnt quite float your boat, it doesnt matter who you are...

...and THAT, ladies and gents, is why men are not portrayed in a sexual manner. all of a sudden, the double standard is a pretty sweet deal huh?

This post has been edited by therandyrhoads on 23rd February 2004 06:47

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You watch the world exploding every single night
Dancing in the sun, a newborn in the light
Say goodbye to gravity and say goodbye to death
Hello to eternity and live for every breath

Your time will come...

At the risk of starting a race war, I gotta say race is the most overblown crock of crap in the US of A. Affirmative action for one. It strikes me as tremendously unfair that I, a middle class white guy, am automatically at a disadvantage when trying to get into a college because blacks get bonus points on their application and such. Tiger Woods' kids will get the same benefits as a black kid coming from Harlem and thats just not fair. The idea of Affirmative Action not only screws whites but it screws over poor blacks too. Just because im white doesnt mean im automatically better off financially than a black man. If anything like that should be done it should be based on income, not race, but then you get into a Communist type system and its just no good. People should succeed or fail on their own merit, not based on how much money they have or what color their skin is.

And racial slurs. No one cares about duragatory terms for whites. No offense intended, but why are wop, kike, kraut, Polack, gook, chink, Jap, Redneck, cracker and other duragatory terms aimed at people of white or Semetic decent OK to throw around but if someone dropped the N Bomb or called called a Hispanic person a name all hell would break lose. Every kind of racial slur is abhorable but for some reason no one cares when whites, Jews or even Asians get dissed on. And the whole issue of slave reparations. I'm sick of being made to feel like MY ANCESTORS enslaved Africans. My ancestors didnt immigrate to America til the early 1900th century and I'll be damned if im gonna feel guilty for the sins commited by people between the time of Columbus til the 1860s.

And I liked the point therandyrhoads made about male stereotypes. In just about every TV show or movie or commercial, male characters are big, dumb and prone to shout something like PATS PATS GO PATS PATS WIN THE SUPERBOWL for no reason other than that they conform to the stereotype that all men are fat, sports obsessed pigs with nothing better to do than drink beer and watch football.

Just my 2 bitter cents.

This post has been edited by Elena99 on 23rd February 2004 16:12

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Blood & Fire

Gender role theory and double standards are a pain. Many of you have already stated points I would like to make.

Boys/Girls should be like such-and-such: I hate this stereotype. I personally consider myself as a protest against the male stereotype. Considering some characteristics that various people may think constitute masculinity: I'm not muscular, I refuse to grow a beard/mustache/goatee/whatnot, I don't lift weights, I opposed the Iraq war (although I hate Saddam Hussein), I strongly dislike football, I don't like to watch TV (unless it's news or something else worth watching), I'm not interested in cool cars, I don't want a girlfriend/fiancee/wife who will submit to me or who is necessarily "sexy", and I don't think sex all the time. I am short (and ugly, I might say), I can be loosely described as a nerd, I think girls generally look better in one-piece swimsuits than bikinis, I design role-playing games, I am a political activist, I don't play much sports, I'm a moralist, and I want a girlfriend/fiancee/wife who is as smart as I am and probably a lot wiser, and who will put up a fight to opposition when necessary/honorable (goes along with the political activist thing somewhat) (and of course is at least somewhat good-looking by my standards).

Similarly, I dislike seeing girls who apparently try to look sexy or whatnot, or act girlish, or dress in weird fashions that apparently are trying to expose as much of the body as decency can tolerate. (Nude women are MOST DEFINITELY NOT something I enjoy seeing.) What I am happy about is that many girls have already broken this (stupid) girly stereotype.

And about how boys are "supposed" to act strong and fearless and not cry, and how girls are "supposed" to act weak and dependent on others, etc.etc.etc....shut up. We are all susceptible to emotions, we are all capable of living independently (except those who are handicapped), we are all capable of being brave, as well as being scared.

Dating: I have yet to encounter a girl who likes me AND will ask me out. As of now, I still don't know how to ask a girl out (or I still haven't had the chance or been daring enough to), but I've learned that as a general fact, boys are the ones to ask girls out. Now how am I going to get anywhere with that?

Show business: There are some non-young-and-beautiful women in these industries, but usually its because of a role in a movie/TV show or because the singer is actually very good. But I am well aware of the problem you mentioned, Hikaroo. If anyone who reads this doesn't know of some good examples, here they are: J.Lo and Britney Spears (both of whom are almost sex symbols but are bad singers who nevertheless are very popular); the controversial Superbowl commercial; the presence of some kind of sex scene in nearly every movie that hits the big screen; the absurd, insane number of pornography pop-up ads.

What makes me mad is that much of the media makes it seem that men are a group of people who want something called "sex", and that women are a group of people who would like to give away something called "sex". This couldn't be further from the truth. But sadly, sex in the media sells. That is unfortunate. Get real, you fools. That's not how the world works.

EDIT: (reminded by Pyro6662's next post in this topic) One more thing: Screw Freud.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 23rd February 2004 16:44

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Both guys and girls have double standards in society, admittedly.. most of them covered prior in this topic. But I have to think that women have it worse. It's in our society because that's what sells, as BGrugby pointed out. My personal opinion and one of the philosiphies that I live by is that listening to and following what society says is for the closed-minded. Society tells you how to live, what to wear, how to look, even what to believe... a world of stereotypes, expectations, and double standards. You need to be open-minded and believe what you want to believe, expect what you want to expect, look how you wanna look, etc. and to heck with everyone else and what they think.

That's all I have to say

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"When I turn the page
The corner bends into the perfect dog ear
As if the words knew I'd need them again
But at the time, I didn't see it."

~"This Ain't a Surfin' Movie" - Minus the Bear

I can chip in pretty simply about this, I think. Yes, there are double standard that affect men. Yes, there are double standards that affect women. Who gets the short end of the stick, people?

Who gets paid less for doing the same work? Who are still assumed to be the only gender appropriate to be a nurse, a teacher (BG notwithstanding), a homemaker? Who constantly has to deal with the implication that you must have big breasts, a tiny waist, and the desire to show them both off to be attractive?

I'm sorry, but I don't have to deal with anything that is that damaging to my psyche, and I get to watch what it does to an otherwise well-adjusted and confident woman every day of my life. I took some photos last night of my wife, and she nearly cried when she saw them because she didn't look thin enough. I'm sure some arrogant jerk will post in this thread saying "it's her fault for having low self-esteem." But it's not. It's everyone's fault. Everyone that drools over a Victoria's Secret catalogue or stares at a woman in a crop top walking down the street.

And I think maybe it's best to keep race out of this. I know it's kind of vague, but I think the topic is more about gender stereotyping than racial.

Edit

Maybe women don't earn less than men anymore. I can't be arsed to find the most recent numbers, so you feel free to do it. But even if I drop that point, the rest still stands.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 23rd February 2004 17:45

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

The main example was that to be a sucessfull singer, you need to be attractive and skinny, right, so i suppose this would be a good sign...
Just look at the picture of the woman. Shes not as such unnattractive but...
She even has talent (but i dont like the kind of music she sings) but only got there by winning Pop Idol.
All these little talentless miming bands and bimbo solo artists, who cannot sing? well, now. Id say what i really think of them, but i i'll just say, they suck.

And they exist why? because a hot woman sells records.

But what about other walks of life? Women are unfairly represented in Politics, and looks definetly dont matter there.
My Local MP and my local MSP are both women. The formers cr*p, the latters overworked, and she should really be the First Minister if this was a just world.
The reasons for this are multiple: Women have to take career breaks, so most women in politics will be over 50 .

Police? Not enought WPC's. Hospitals? too few female doctors, too few male nurses. Fire Brigade? Toof ew women in there.
Army? Women cant serve in the frontline. (im still not sure who thats to defend: the women soldiers or the british male squaddies reputation- our gals would probably trounce our lads in the frontlines... )

Its all to do with Career Breaks, taking time to look after familes and such. Whislt that may seem sexiist, it is. An employer wont want to have to pay 2 people while a woman is off work for a long spell with a newborn, thus, many will eb reluctant to allow women to climb the career ladders.
So in short: its sexism. and it'll never ever go away, not matter how hard we try.


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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Good call, I haven't been around lately and I might as well throw down my two cents...

Has bothered to watch "The Apprentice"? When it was guys vs. girls, the guys were getting their asses kicked because the girls were sticking theirs out. That show truely taught me that prostitution is the oldest business out there.

Britany Spears...nuff said

Fruad was completely right on this one fellas

When first meet a beautiful women at a business party, is your first instinct "Man is she beautiful" (this works for guys and girls) or "I bet she is a good person".

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"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

It's modern ages. Some of you have said yourself how women can now pay the bill. Times have changed, but still women feel as if they're being oppressed! You say women get payed less? Give me figures over at least twenty different occupations that can show this.

And I'm pretty sure that the reason thin models or pop stars are preferred to fat models or pop stars is because these days, is because being overweight is a sign of absense of health. Back in the past, plump women were preferred because it showed they were wealthy, but times have changed. And if fat women feel opressed to get thin...WHY THE HELL DON'T YOU WANT TO GET THIN? Do you want to stay fat and probably die of obecity?

And although I'm not into that sort of thing, what about the fat woman who recently won Pop Idol? I hear she's doing pretty well for herself.

I would personally rather go out with an average sized girl; no matter what her facial appearance is than a fat woman. Why? Because being fat these days suggests a lack of control, and lack of health. And those women who slim themselves stupidly down to a point of death; it's just stupid!*

And I probably would be attracted to a healthy man, not an overweight man. Speak honestly now girls - how many of you are turned on by fat men who have a cheeseburger in their hand every five minutes? Not just because they're slobs, but because they have a lack of control. You can't just say women are being "killed" because of this double standard, when you would much prefer a hunky man than a corpulent man.

* I don't mean people with annorexia. I would never want to condemn those who suffer from a disease.

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"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad." - Rincewind

You can be as self-assertive as you like, just so long as you do what you’re told.” - Granny Weatherwax

"When Mr. Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend" - Sam Vimes to Detritus

Well... I was considering not touching this, but I changed my mind.


This is a VERY sensitive subject these days, and it can go either way. Often men are expected to pay for dates, provide for the home, do yardwork/repairs around the house.

On the other end though, women are often subjected to the opposite. They are supposed to stay home and cook/clean/raise children, and wait on the man hand and foot. That's what many people still expect of them.

I have to agree with R51 though. Woman get the hard end of the deal. I'm a good portion overweight, and after I got out of grade school, I got over most teasing about it. I still feel a bit sensitive, but I don't let it bother me.

How ever, my girl friend hates her body. She really isn't bad. I honestly weight 100 lbs more then her. Yet, since she doesn't weigh 90-110 lbs, and have a slim skinny stomach, sociaty has made her feel worthless and bad about her body. She feels ugly, and unwanted, even if she is the most beautiful person I've ever seen, and I love her dearly.

Now... Del S... about some of the jobs listed there, like Frontline Military or Fireman.... Not to be degrading to woman, but the man body IS better handled to take the stress of that position. Again, I have nothing against woman being in either position. In fact, I encourage them to try if that is something they want to persue, but it wont' be as easy. Male Testosterone allows muscle mass to be built easier to handle the stress of this type of job. It's just like Construction. Not many woman enter that field, because of the stress on the body.

How ever, I do think we should see more Female doctors, or male nurses. More male receptionists, and female cops. Yet, how often to you see male receptonists, or get pulled over by a female cop and given a speeding ticket?

As for the race standard... I won't even touch that. That subject is quite a sensitive one itself.

Edit: Oh, and I agree with Iggy here.

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You say women get payed less? Give me figures over at least twenty different occupations that can show this.

My Girl Friend gets paid 1.50 per hour more then I do. Neither of us have College degrees, but even though we do different jobs, I believe mine is more stressful of the two. I dont' have a problem with her getting paid more then I do, but I believe these days the "Woman getting paid .80 to the mans $1" isn't so true anymore.

This post has been edited by Fadien on 23rd February 2004 17:05

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"And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped” -Sir Bedevere the Wise

Quote (Iggy @ 23rd February 2004 10:47)

It's modern ages. Some of you have said yourself how women can now pay the bill. Times have changed, but still women feel as if they're being oppressed! You say women get payed less? Give me figures over at least twenty different occupations that can show this.

Like I edited into my post, I can't be arsed. Feel free to ignore that point if you want, the rest are still valid. Maybe I'm just wrong, I can't care at this point enough to do the research for you.

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And I'm pretty sure that the reason thin models or pop stars are preferred to fat models or pop stars is because these days, is because being overweight is a sign of absense of health. Back in the past, plump women were preferred because it showed they were wealthy, but times have changed. And if fat women feel opressed to get thin...WHY THE HELL DON'T YOU WANT TO GET THIN? Do you want to stay fat and probably die of obecity?

I don't know about the rest of the posters in this thread, but I wasn't talking about obese women. My wife is a size 6 and panics about being viewed as overweight, because society has taught her that you have to be a size 2 to look good. True obesity is not what I was talking about.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 23rd February 2004 17:50

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Another issue is, that only about 10% of women out there have the body type to be thin like Britney Spears or whoever. A lot of these women get recruited into the entertainment industry because of this, if they happen to also have a smidge of talent. (not to say that a skinny girl isn't talented, though.)

Obesity and being overweight are very, very different. If you're carrying an extra 50 pounds, it's unhealthy. If you're carrying around an extra 15 or so, that can still be healthy even. However, since it's not skinny, a lot of women that are maybe 15 lbs over and quite fit are still looked down upon.

Some women can be fit and run circles around skinny girls, but have large frames, and so will never be skinny. I have a close relative like this; she is very fit, very strong, but because she has a large frame, she will always be bigger than me, even if she is fitter.

It does go for guys, as well. A lot of guys are naturally skinny, and are insecure about it because they have trouble "beefing up", or are naturally quite large and are insecure about it because it's hard for them to get rid of love handles and such.

This post has been edited by Elena99 on 23rd February 2004 19:56

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

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  I don't know about the rest of the posters in this thread, but I wasn't talking about obese women. My wife is a size 6 and panics about being viewed as overweight, because society has taught her that you have to be a size 2 to look good. True obesity is not what I was talking about. 

Meh, sorry. I was kinda starting off on that but got a little sidetracked. My fault.

But anyway, being careful or even too careful about your weight can sometimes be fatal (I'm not talking about annorexics, I'm not involving them because that is a disease of the mind). The epidemic of obecity is killing a lot more these days, a lot LOT more than anyone starving themselves to death.

So even though it's not neccesarily -good- that your wife is slimming herself everyday; it's a lot better than her fatting herself up and cutting off 20 years of her lifespan. Think about it, if we were back to the ages when fat women were considered "hot" because of their wealth, heart problems would be abundant.
Maybe you should just tell your wife she's a perfect size already. As long as you're not considerably overweight than you're fine. So maybe sometimes, these double standards in society are helping a lot of people in society who are careful about their weight, even if it doesn't seem like it now.

Paranoia can be a wonderful thing if stops you beefing up and dying.

This post has been edited by Iggy on 23rd February 2004 20:21

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"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad." - Rincewind

You can be as self-assertive as you like, just so long as you do what you’re told.” - Granny Weatherwax

"When Mr. Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend" - Sam Vimes to Detritus

Well, I don't think I can say anything that hasn't been already said so I'll just try and give my opinion.

Yes, double standards suck. There is a double standard for EVERYONE and unfortunately I don't think it will ever go away.

As for girls needing to be attractive to be successful I'd say, on one hand, that could be playing off of men's desire to see a half naked chick. But going off my personal experience, as a man, I can't honestly support a girl with a sucky singing voice. No matter how drop dead sexy she is. If you wanna do a sexy little dance routine on TV, fine. Just please either come up with a decent song or shut up.

If you lined up Jennifer Lopez, Britney Spears, and whoever else is famous for being attractive, I honestly wouldn't be able to tell you who is who. Shows you how much I pay attention to these "pop idles".

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Another issue is, that only about 10% of women out there have the body type to be thin like Britney Spears or whoever

Good point. I wonder what pecentage of men have the body type to have that "greek god" look. I'd bet its not any better. How about that one latin singer guy. (can't remember his name). He is supposed to be really hot. Anyway do you think he got famous because of his stupid "living lavita whatever" song?

I'll admit that I like my girls thin. I don't mean frail, flabby armed, little girls. I mean I like a girl who have had, what I consider, the dedication to work the flab off her body. Of course gentetics can play a part in this, so no need to make me feel bad about it. Its just a preference I have and I'm sure we all have oure preferences when it comes to looks.

And I agree with Iggy in a way about the pop singers and models. A model is preffered thin because they are supposed to be a "model of beauty", and extra weight on the body is not exactly considered attractive. As for the pop idles I think the title they are given is deceptive. Their job title should be model/dancer/half-ass singer. I honestly don't know how they sell records or anything but I guess some people do consider their music good.

Looks can play a big part in peoples lives. Like Pyro said the first thing you consider when you meet a person is there looks. And thats because thats the first thing you have to go on. You haven't gotten close enough to consider if they smell awful and you haven't talked with them long enough to know if you like there personality. So if you never get to know a person, like a TV celebrity, the only thing you have to go on is there looks (or music I guess). This is a big reason why I pay no attention to main stream media. Its rather pointless to fawn over someone you don't even know.

Of course looks aren't everything, as the saying goes. If I was in a relationship with a beutiful girl and we had nothing in common, I honestly don't think I could keep it up for long.

Now if I was in a relationship with a mildly attractive girl who was an otaku and a videogame nut, I'd do my best to not screw the relationship up. Heck, she doesn't even have to be pretty. And if she was a little over weight I'd just help her work off the pounds. Nothing like a little confidence from someone you love to help with the dedication.

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-- You're Gonna Carry That Weight --

Alright, well as someone who (as many of you in chat know) has been much much more than a little insecure about my body and weight and spent about 80% of my waking hours in the past four years picking myself to pieces, going on diets and fasts, rejoicing after getting two different forms of the flu within a week and a half last year bc i couldn't eat anything and lost weight, sobbing after getting back any pictures of myself and recording the calorie count of EVERYTHING I eat in the margins of my school notebooks, I couldn't pass up posting here.

I think we've arleady established that double standards exist for both men and women. I could talk about all the things that have already been talked about (paying for dinner and movies, women in the army, women in politics, etc.) and give all the possible alternatives for each, but as they've already been greatly discussed, I think it will suffice to say that the double standards you are familiar with all depend on where you grew up and what the cultural background is.

I come from New York, one of the probably most culturally diverse areas in America, if not the world. That being said, I have not witnessed nearly as many double standards in action as far as race, religion, etc. as maybe someone in...I don't know...a small town in Germany, where I am right now. I was in a club the other day and there were three black people there. They were the first black people I've seen in the town and I've been living here for almost 6 months. As they were dancing, a radius formed around them with people staring and just backing away. And it made me more than a little angry.

But anyway, what I am most compelled to talk about is the original topic, being the need for women to constantly be sex objects and such. It seems that as the average American person grows larger, the fascination with waifs also grows. People are living in a fast food culture, (particularly in America, but it is growing....gradually reaching Europe more and more, as I see here), surrounded by people who are overweight and a growing obese population, but are encouraged more and more by what they see to subsist on various forms of diet soda and carrot sticks.

Apparently thinness will make us happy. My life will be better once I lose a few fucking pounds. My Dream Man will appear, I will look Sleek and Sexy yet very Assertive and Business-like in my sharp new suit (a perfect size...oh i dunno...somewhere in the children's range by this point), snag my Dream Job and live Happily Ever After.

This will all happen as soon as I lose 10 pounds. Or 15. Or 30 or 50.

Yet somehow, no matter how much I lose, I will always look fat in pictures. There will always be some blatant bodily flaw when I look in the mirror.

This Thin Woman is, of course, superior to all the Normal-sized Women who eat proper portion sizes, aren't constantly dealing with dry skin and falling-out hair and aren't listening to their stomachs grumble until 4 pm when they are allowed their first "meal" of the day, that being two rice cakes with a half tablespoon of peanut butter or whatever may be the caloric equivalent. The Normal Women are healthy, yes, but they sometimes let themselves go. Maybe they'll drink regular soda or eat a half box of chocolates on Valentine's Day. This shows a lack of discipline, that discipline being had by the Thin Women, who are all Put Together. Always have a Plan.

Why is it that the average American woman is 5'4" and 145 lbs with a Body Mass Index of 24-25, yet we are constantly being pressed to look like Jennifer Aniston or Gisele Bündchen? The average model is something like 5'10 weighing 114 lbs. Body Mass Index of 16. The healthy BMI range is between 19 and 25.

I'm also sorry to sound accusatory, but I think a big problem for girls is that oftentimes, guys really have no idea what they are talking about with regard to weight. A guy will say "WOW she's a WHALE" or "WOW, XXX lbs??? That's a hell of a lot!" Yet their girlfriend, love interest, best friend, etc. may be standing right there, at the same height weighing more than the girl who was just called a whale or being 10 lbs over XXX lbs. She will feel horribly inadequate. When the guy tells her she is 'beautiful" or "perfect" or anything in the future, she wil never believe him because she is over what apparently is his "ideal weight range", even though he never took into account different bone structures, body types, anything.

There are girls a lot heavier than me at my height who look much thinner than me and others much lighter than me who look larger, just because of body type. Generally, girls are much more likely to take these different weight factors into account when talking in front of other people because they live with it all the time and know what it feels like to be judged on that level.

and Iggy: I have a lot to say to you. I hope you read what I've posted above, but there is more. Please stop saying that you are "not accusing people with anorexia" because it is a "mental illness". Of course, I agree that it is a very VERY serious mental illness. But there are many many other forms of disordered eating which fill the category of "mental illness" and by saying that girls are being "stupid" when "starving themselves to death" or "being too careful about what they eat", you are accusing a very VERY large body of females in America and the world of being morons. There is much more to food obsession than just being thin. Just because an eating disorder is not obvious by jutting bones does not mean that a person is not disordered with regard to food.

Also, telling someone that she is "perfect" will not be the magic elixir for sudden body confidence.
Watch what you say, you never know who you will be insulting.


~E

This post has been edited by murrrr on 23rd February 2004 22:17

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With every mistake we must surely be learning
Still my guitar gently weeps

Well anyone can see this definatley became a heated debate.

With all due respect you talk about double standards without asking the biggest question of them all. And that question is.

Are you truly campaigning for equality and fairness amongst the people, or are you just pointing out this double standard in the hope it will further your own cause?

Uh-Oh big revelation here, well both sides claim the other has the advantage over them. Well the arguement so far has proven that may not be the entirely be the case, however the current settings are not perfect. Things are the way they are after years of change and lessons learn't and things are getting better. So don't worry about it too much.

Now I know I'll be targetted myself, now you ask what am I guilty of? Well if I could list all of the double standards I'm guilty of I'd be here forever. But the only one I mention is the one I'm most guilty of. So before you try verbally assault me ask yourself that question.

Quote

Watch what you say, you never know who you will be insulting.

Whose tone is worse now?

I didn't just mean annorexia. I meant other eating disorders too. Anything that makes you stop eating if it's a disease I was talking about.

Stop being so defensive. I'll sum up my post here, and it's my opinion so please don't threaten me.

If a woman is overweight, then she is very very wise to be careful about her weight. Being overly careful when fat can stop death. But this is about women who are -not- fat, but think they are and do -not- suffer from any food related disease. It's simple. All you need is your weight. As someone said before, if you are 50 pounds over you should be paranoid. If you have your health and you are average weight and girth, then it doesn't matter. Those girls who are killing themselves just to impress some guy ARE STUPID. Let me remind you, I am not talking about anorexia OR any other eating disorders, ok?

If you feel you have to virtually starve yourself to get a guy, then the guy isn't worth it. There's no excuse if you suffer from some disease. If you have a partner who thinks they are fat, but are thin and continues to starve themselves like R51's wife, then the fact that they are with someone proves they don't need to do this.

I have to stress this one more time because people like you will probably continue to accuse me of having a slanging match with the majority of American women. Those WOMEN who are NOT OVERWEIGHT but continue to STARVE themselves, especially when they are already romantically involved are being stupid...maybe not stupid; misguided. Either way, it's a stupid thing to do.

I'm a guy. Sure, I like to look at hot, thin women. Most men can't change that. Like most people can't choose what gender they like, it's built in. We can't change what size of woman turns us on. But if there was a skinny woman obsessed with her weight and shopping every night for new jeans; and an average sized woman content with her weight and not paranoid I would:

1) Feel attracted to A more than B.
2) Feel attracted to B but not as much as A.
3) Rather settle down with B.

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"Luck is my middle name. Mind you, my first name is Bad." - Rincewind

You can be as self-assertive as you like, just so long as you do what you’re told.” - Granny Weatherwax

"When Mr. Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend" - Sam Vimes to Detritus

Well, coming from a guy whose sister nearly died of anorexia last year, and with a gf who was headed down that route before I forced her to get help, I'd have to say that women have it harder when it comes to the looks department. The calorie counting, the obsessiveness in the mirror, the joy from seeing a lower number on the scale, followed by a bout of depression because it's "not enough". That's just what I've lived with. I mean, at school I talk to or overhear girls cutting themselves down when they look great to me. Whether it be just casual "oh, i like terrible in these pants today, haha" or a whole big "i dont deserve to be talked to today". Women being obese is FAR less of a problem than woman who are always trying to get skinny.

With all the distorted body images, it's like the girls can't even see what I (or whoever else) sees. I don't like girls that have nothing on them, with no curves, flat ass etc. But somehow people like Paris Hilton (NOT attractive and TOO skinny by far) get to be the poster child of what girls think they should be. Blah to that. J Lo at least has something on her, I feel she actually has gotten women to feel more comfortable with their assets.

Men, on the other hand, have stereotypes as well. But not as much in having to look like Mark McGrath or whoever. The "stupid, beer-drinking, football watching" guy is world renowned from America. Guys have to be tough, they have to lead, they can never show fear or sadness. They have to be good at sports, business-suit executives in the making, harder working. Men are supposed to "bring home the bacon". Double standards have always been around, and if you eliminate or decrease one, there'll always be more.

Quote

Those girls who are killing themselves just to impress some guy ARE STUPID. Let me remind you, I am not talking about anorexia OR any other eating disorders, ok?

If you feel you have to virtually starve yourself to get a guy, then the guy isn't worth it. There's no excuse if you suffer from some disease. If you have a partner who thinks they are fat, but are thin and continues to starve themselves like R51's wife, then the fact that they are with someone proves they don't need to do this.

Those WOMEN who are NOT OVERWEIGHT but continue to STARVE themselves, especially when they are already romantically involved are being stupid...maybe not stupid; misguided. Either way, it's a stupid thing to do.

It's not that easy Iggy. For one, it's not just about ONE guy. Just because one person tells them they look fine, doesn't mean everyone else isn't saying the opposite behind her back. There's also the trust factor. How much can they trust what they say? While their partner may be content with them, what about the rest of the world? There's more to life than just finding someone. Things will still be taken to heart from other sources.

Here's the thing, while most girls like this aren't diagnosed as "An Anorexic", they still have anorexic tendencies. They may have a distorted body image, or take comfort in their knowledge of calorie counting, or whatever the issue may be. You can't say that someone is being "stupid", because to them it's not a "this is right and this is wrong" situation. It's not seen as black and white.

And it would probably be greatly appreciated by others if you referred to this behavior as "misguided", like you said.

This post has been edited by Tidu-who on 23rd February 2004 23:09

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

*sigh*

Iggy. You are missing a little point here. I'll try approaching this from another angle.

Okay, let's say that there is a girl who thinks she has about 20 lbs to lose. That is not a severely unhealthy amount to be overweight by, but the girl feels that she would be more attractive if she loses the weight. Plus, the guys in her grade don't really look at her the same way they look at the really skinny girl in class, who happens to be unhealthily skinny, but that doesn't matter to the overweight girl. She just wants to be appreciated too.

So, alright, she starts to try to lose weight. She looks to diets, and exercise, and tries her hardest. After a week, she loses two lbs, possibly because she was really disciplined about her food, and lost a bit of water weight. However, the next week, she's too busy with school and doesn't have time to get the exercise in, or she craves chips immensely and downs a whole bag in one day. She feels depressed, she gains a pound, and feels frustrated. Suddenly, losing weight is a full time job, and she's frustrated, and constantly thinking of food and calories, and wishing it were easier.

Etc etc. Read: IT IS NOT ALWAYS EASY TO LOSE WEIGHT. Little thing called metabolism. Some people have really high metabolism, and it's easy for them to lose weight, hard for them to bulk up. Some people have really low metabolism, and it's really hard for them to lose weight, but they will gain weight if they're careless for even a few days.

I'm not trying to take an accusatory tone, but several people have tried to get things through your head, and I got tired of seeing it not work.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

This is the sort of issue that can float around in my head for a long time without ever being resolved.

I guess that my question would be: if we agree that double standards exist, what are we going to do about it? How can we change things?

The cynic in me says that it's impossible. If I am a short, scrawny teenage male who weighs 120 pounds and has a disproportionately large head to go along with my geeky image, nothing I can do will make me attractive to the masses. But I don't care, and my logical mind tells me that those girls who don't look like Britney Spears shoudn't care either.

Incedentally, this topic demonstrates one of the biggest double standards facing men: that all men are pigs who will only be satisfied with physically "perfect" women. I, as well as the majority of the men I know, are proof that this is not true. The media tells us what we should look for in women, and many men buy it, but I can tell you that most men (especially outside of high school, which is nothing like real life because everyone in high school is a tool [I, too, can generalize!]) are not like that. Most young guys are self-conscious about how girls will judge them, but most girls are not that picky. It's the same with guys. And those who are are not very mature, or not very smart, or both.

Back to the topic at hand:

I do have an idealistic side, and it tells me that nothing will ever change if we allow things to go on as they are. But I am at a loss as to what people can do.

The media is crap. As long as people continue to eat the slop the media throws into our bucket, nothing will change. Jello Biafra says, "Become the media." I think that would be great, but for now, a less extreme, less difficult answer is to simply ignore the media.

Think about it. No one who counts respects Britney Spears.


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Always hopeful, yet discontent; he knows changes aren't permanent --
But change is!

Quote (Iggy @ 23rd February 2004 17:28)

If a woman is overweight, then she is very very wise to be careful about her weight. Being overly careful when fat can stop death. But this is about women who are -not- fat, but think they are and do -not- suffer from any food related disease. It's simple. All you need is your weight. As someone said before, if you are 50 pounds over you should be paranoid. If you have your health and you are average weight and girth, then it doesn't matter. Those girls who are killing themselves just to impress some guy ARE STUPID. Let me remind you, I am not talking about anorexia OR any other eating disorders, ok?

I would like to thank you for implying that I myself as a human being is stupid.
SSJ_Cloud sent me a PM this morning, saying he was going to post, but didn't want to offend me or make me feel bad by saying something about me in the post, so I'll say it myself. I've weighed about 180 since the fifth grade, which is a lot. For a while I didn't even notice, until my brother and sister, as well as people at school constantly tourmented me by calling me fat and nasty and gross because of my weight. I'm sorry, but things that happen when you're younger have a really profound impact on your life.
From sixth to tenth grade, I ate practically nothing. I still remember one day I was playing Tales of Destiny 2, and ate the only thing I ate at all that day, a bowl of tostitos and some salsa, and it made me feel horrible, and that was all I had eaten all day. I was and still am constantly trying to rid myself of a few extra pounds. I excersize as often as possible, even at work, and while it was up, I was running 40 minutes a day. Ryan himself brought up the point that Murrr brought up, that after I lose the ten, then will it be 20 that I want to lose? 30? I still can't help but feel horribly ugly and fat, especially with looks that people give me, and in my media class, it is constantly brought to attention when a very skinny very busty girl is so hot. Nobody ever says your average jane is hot, whether they think it or not. Stuff like this puts a LOT of mental stress on girls. Just ask Ryan. The only example I can use is myself. I cry a lot because I feel disgustingly fat. I'll burst into tears in the middle of a conversation because I feel inadequate. And Ryan tries his best to make me feel better about it, but nothing can. It's going to be there until I accept how I look, which may or may not ever arise. I used to be proud that I worked my pant size from an 18 to an 10/11, but now I just feel horrible. It's because of the stupid standard that women are supposed to be absurdly skinny. Yes yes, men do have some double standards, but are they so stressfull that they would kill themselves? I can almost guarantee that some girl somewhere killed herself because she thought she wasn't skinny enough. Now I feel like I'm just ranting.
Nomatter how you phrase it, you came off as very insensitive and cruel in that post, Iggy.

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..DDR..Maine..
..Hikaroo-chan no Deviantart..

<Tiddles> And I love how people suggest "Why not call it my great name?????" when their name is clearly the worst thing ever.
<Tiddles> "How about ; Mozilla Xplorer & Mozilla Xpress."
<Tiddles> How about you die in a fire?

Sigh... I could never stay out of a topic like this.

I personally don't agree with objectifying women, and it's hard for me to put myself in a girl like Hik's position. I try to look nice when at all possible but I have never had a problem with weight. I was a wrestler in high school though so I do know how stressful trying to lose weight and starving yourself can be. It's a self-destructive, bad decision to make, but I don't entirely blame the individual for doing it. I am just glad that Hikaroo has found someone like Ryan to help assure her that an unhealthy diet is the wrong way to go about it. Unfortunately most women don't have that kind of outlet. It's a hard problem to solve. I would encourage anyone who has a weight problem to talk to a close friend, relative, or appropriate health group. I know MSU has a student hotline for eating disorders. If you look online I'm sure you can find information and support. I would also like to remind everyone that this is Eating Disorder Awareness Week. It's a week to be supportive and understanding of people's problems.

To blame the media is not the right thing to do here. It's not going to solve anyone's problem, and its not going to change anytime soon. The reason why women are objectified in the media is for the simple reason that men from the ages of 18-40 watch the most tv and have the most disposable income in the US. It's a true fact and it's not going to change anytime soon. It's better to find value in people than in television. I watch tv for entertainment, not to learn how to live my life. If other people do so and judge you for not reciprocating, they aren't worth your time.

Another thing about the differences between men and women is that they are biologically very different and this causes differences in their behavior and traits. I'm going to make some statements that are generalizations here, but they are not objective of the entire male or female population. I am not using this as a way to put down women but instead to try and explain why women are objectified. Women are biologically built for making babies. Men are not. For this reason, for thousands of years in western society the men brought home the bacon and the women stayed at home and took care of the kids. This situation has changed mostly in the last 50 years. It takes a hell of a lot longer than 50 to reverse thousands of years of social status. Look at other antiquated social nuances that have taken awhile to change - african americans were granted citizenship over 100 years before the civil rights movement. Property ownership was a requirement to vote in the US for 60 years after we expelled the British commoner/noble class system.

Because of this social and biological disparity, men were always viewed as the leader, the more competent, the authority. This is changing. Also, it is very illegal to pay men and women differently by the same employer for the same work. Differences may occur across an industry but things are getting much more equal every year. In my department at work the females outnumber the males 22 - 15. There are 50% more women in my professional business fraternity than men. Girls are beating the crap out of boys in elementary and secondary school test scores. The gap is closing fast. If you don't believe me, read this BusinessWeek article from last May. While it is still a man's world in terms of business leadership, that will change drastically in the next 10 years, no doubt in my mind.

Personally... I don't find overly skinny women very attractive. I do have certain standards but a "kinda cute" girl who is a real sweetheart is much more attractive to me than a "smoking hot" girl who is a bitch. I know skinny girls who are total slobs that, because of their metabolism are still skinny and girls who are not as skinny who take good care of themselves or at least make an effort and I would take the less skinny one any day of the week.

One final note.... On dating, I am a big believer in chivalry. If you aren't willing to sacrifice some money to treat a girl to a nice evening out, are you willing to sacrifice your heart to be devoted to her? Once you are going out that is a separate matter and the girl is expected to meet the guy somewhere near the middle, but until then be a gentleman. At least that's what I'll do.

This post has been edited by Gerad on 24th February 2004 03:30

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"Hit hard, hit first, hit often."

--Adm. William "Bull" Halsey, USN

Quote (Hikaroo @ 23rd February 2004 20:05)

can almost guarantee that some girl somewhere killed herself because she thought she wasn't skinny enough.

Well, if anyone's ever seen a pro-anorexia site, you'd learn this type of behavior and thought process is quite common among late-stage anorexics.

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"