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I'm a bit new here, but I like to talk and voice my opinion, but most of all I like a good argument. I want to hear peoples opinions, so i hope that my penchant for topic starting doesnt get too annoying.

Anyway to the topic, When one sits around and thinks about the current RPG world they typically think of SquarEnix. Its a great company. Great, borderline God-like company to be exact. But what about the gameworld in general. It has become clear to me that the gaming world has become very sick and twisted. Ladies and Gentlemen this is the next Hollywood. Who else overly glorifies good stories and makes them crap? Who else makes redundant sequels with the quality being cumalitively worse than previous work (Pardon my reffering to hollywood as tho it were a person). Yes people, the good ol' days are gone. The primetime for good Rpg's have passed us. And by the time they realize what an RPG truly is its going to be too late and we'll be too old to really enjoy it. I can admit that a few RPG's are good games nowadays, but back then its like every RPG had a really good aspect. Nowadays RPG's that make it to the commercial level usually have Good Graphics and Bad Quality.

I cant wait to hear your all's opinions, and if their are some sweet freaking RPG's out, that are just WOW! then please post them along with your opinion.

I would have to agree with you, The 3D era hasn't exactly been a great one in the History of Gaming, and has not been that great in my opinion in the relm of RPGs. There have been games Like Disgaea that have everything I'm looking for in a RPG, but I have been seeing fewer of those games recently. Who knows, maybe the game world has gone Hair Metal.

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"Like an Angel from the underworld, or a devil from paradise" Faye Valentine: Cowboy Bebop

I have to say that I've been impressed with many recent RPG's. I personally believe that gaming, just like many industries, must grow and adapt to certain conditions, and it faces many challenges. The Final Fantasy series has grown exponentially in popularity since Final Fantasy 7 was released in 96-97 or so, and thus much more is expected from Square, now, compared to 10 years ago. The fact is that these days, graphics are huge. In 95, when Sony's Playstation dazzled critics with its (then) amazing graphics, Nintendo held strong with classic games such as Chrono Trigger, Donkey Kong Country 2, and Yoshi's Island. Nowadays, graphics have become a major player, and a lack of visual appeal can seriously hurt a game. The capabilities are there, and the demand is there, and so SquarEnix must deliver to remain competitive. Many old-school fans might disagree with SquarEnix' decisions, but in today's world, new players will not be attracted by an ugly game.

I don't think SquarEnix is alienating its long-time followers. Games on the GBA, for example, cater to their "more gameplay, less graphics" style. And games like FFX-2, no matter what they seem to be, have a much deeper foundation rooted in the classics. FFX-2's suits are a new take on the job system. New, young players likely won't be interested in becoming monks and bards, and by catering to them, SquarEnix is essentially building a market of new players who will buy their games for the next 10 years. I'd say it's evolution. Hollywood sells, and if gaming has to borrow ideas from it to survive, then so be it.

Final Fantasy X was an enthralling game. I was very impressed by its depth and character, and the great graphics helped me get into it. I've heard nothing but good things about FF: Crystal Chronicles. This coming from a friend who was started a new game of FF: Mystic Quest today.

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Lou: There's a couple of guys fighting down at the aquarium, Chief.
Wiggum: Do they still sell those frozen bananas?
Lou: I think so.
Wiggum: Let's roll.

For one thing I think the industry has make a mistake in assuming that 3D is better. 2D, which is a perfectly good graphical format for video games has been dismissed as being old and outdated. There are quite a few disadvantages with 3D, but I think the big questions to be asked here are: Have video games become too lifelike? Have video games become too complicated? I believe the answers are a resounding yes. The days of fun simplistic gameplay are behind us unless either 2D makes a glorious return or 3D is better implemented.

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FFXI (Siren server)
Tauu the Windurstian Tarutaru!
White Mage & Paladin

You can blame the decline in quality on 3D all you like, but at the end of the day, the 2D Final Fantasy Tactics Advance has probably been received even less warmly than the recent 3D FFs.

Graphics aren't really the issue themselves. I agree there's too much focus on them compared to innovation and gameplay, sure, but you can convert a 2D game to 3D or a kind of pseudo-3D and retain exactly the playability there was before. Think about FF6, but just with 3D graphics. As long as you don't change the gameplay systems, I can't see at all how that's worse. Perhaps a little slower, but I could certainly live with that.

So if you ask me, 2D only seems better because some people made some better games. There are things that are better in 3D, and you can make just as good a 3D RPG as a 2D one. And it's certainly not going away. We can complain all we like, but more games are being sold than ever.

The fact is, we're on the 11th numbered Final Fantasy game now, and if we're honest, the gameplay hasn't changed that much since FF1 (fixed character classes) and FF3 (jobs), other than in saturation (few character- or job-specific skills) and pointless mini-games. Has anyone thought that maybe it's time to give it a rest? Think up some new brand name and produce something that does innovate, as i90 said, and then not worry when people compare it to Final Fantasy, which should frankly be left as a pleasant memory of a different era of gaming.

It's not that it's getting worse so much as it's that we're getting the same game, that we've all played before 10 times, in a different hat and trousers. And it's too busy running around shouting about its hat and trousers that it forgets a few of the bits that made it good before. Or something.

The thing is, I've never looked at the FF series as the pinnacle of RPGs. Perhaps that's because I mostly come from a PC gaming background, RPG-wise. I played Baldur's Gate before I played any FF, and the thing that struck me about FF was not gameplay, but presentation. That has, to me, always been Square's strongest suit, and it continues to be, albeit for a more mass-market target audience. You can't really blame them, either. Innovative, simple, good, fun games don't sell any more. Otherwise, the Gamecube wouldn't be in a sorry third place.

I'm not sure if I'm making many points, one point or no points here. But at the end of the day, you have to vote with your feet. If you like 2D, get a GBA, and buy games like crazy. If you're dissatisfied with the recent FFs, try them first and then don't buy them. Brand loyalty is only going to hurt quality in the long run, after all. And keep up with reviews, and buy games that do innovate, because they still exist. My favourite RPG of recent years is Deus Ex. Sure, it looks like a first person shooter, but it has everything I'd want from an RPG and it out-storylines today's recycled FF plots any day. (Not so good if you want something mediaeval, though.)

I suppose what I'm saying is that you can have good graphics and good quality. It's not so much a question of graphics as a question of priorities, and jumping back to enforced 2D isn't the answer, IMHO.

I do think that there is a different aspect to 2D graphics, a different feel that can't be emulated in 3D, and 2D graphics don't have to be ugly. Just look at Guilty Gear X-2! High resolution sprite based grphics are beautiful! Legend of Mana is another example of what kind of awsome visuals can be acomplished in the 2D realm. Sadly, I think that the polygonal technology was devoloped a little too quickly and the pinnacle sprite based gaming died just a few years too soon. I think we would be playing a lot more high resolution sprite based games right now otherwise.
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The FF6*10 webring celebrates FF6's tenth anniversary with fanart (japanese).

I agree with Tiddles in that the graphics type shouldn't affect the quality of the game. I personally prefer 2D but if someone can produce a 3D game of equivalent quality to a 2D game, then I would say that they are the same as good (except possibly for the graphics).

One of the things about 3D, though, is that somehow something doesn't feel right to me even when the animation is very smoothed out. Maybe it's because of the weird appearance of characters like Steiner, or maybe it's the lack of facial expression and fingers of the FF7 crew (outside of FMVs and battle, that is). I've seen good 3D graphics, such as in FF7 battles, but in general I've found it more lackluster.

There's something about sprites and 2D graphics that I enjoy--maybe it's the camera (it doesn't change my point of view every so often), especially in areas where the action was "filmed" badly, such as Cloud walking UP a bridge toward the camera but having to press DOWN to do that because the camera is at one end of the bridge and he's coming toward the camera and the bridge has a nice sag.

But as Strideo said, 2D and 3D mentality are quite different, and I grew up with 2D, so that might be why I prefer it. But more than once have I heard complaints about games such as FFX (I've never played it before so this is according to what I've heard) which put way too much focus on nice-looking graphics and too little focus on actual storyline. Referring to FFX, I should also say that I've heard complaints about summon animations that take forever--I've heard that you can turn them off, but still, I've seen the one for Bahamut, and it IS too long--it takes at least two minutes or so. (Heck, you only get seven minutes to survive in the sunken Worus tower in FFV! Three Bahamut summons like that would be deadly!)

Personally, I don't like it when 2D games are too simple either. for example, I almost can't stand battles in FF1, and FF4 was OK-good, but I would like to see a sophistication like that of CT to be well satisfied. (Now the only thing I would add to the CT battle system is the ability of the players to move around on the battlefield. Hmm...sounds familiar...) Now FF7's battle graphics were impressive. As much as I didn't like most of its other graphics, I enjoyed the battle graphics very much--this probably shows that I expect from 3D a high degree of detail and lifelikeness, even though I (unfairly, admittedly) don't expect such from 2D, such as in FF6. But--I'm not sure why--2D sprites, when done well, can seem as human as 3D details. Or maybe it's the plot.

Some articles I found that relate to this topic (I found the others while looking for the first):
http://web.mit.edu/chads/www/gamerev/FFSeries.html (support for the case that it's the story that's going bad--sorry for posting this link a second time but it relates to the topic)
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N68/ffx.68a.html (a review of FFX)
http://web.mit.edu/chads/www/gamerev/rev16a.html and http://web.mit.edu/chads/www/gamerev/rev16b.html (a negative review of a 2D game (although not RPG), based on plot and gameplay)

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Im sorry if my starting message and topic was a little misleading, I know for a fact there are some quality games that have quality graphics, and as Connor said, Disgaea was a good example, same with Suikoden III, however I was merely pointing out that the gaming industry has become so enveloped with graphics they have started lacking in story and playability of most RPG's. I mean if they would just take the time and actually play their own game before it hits the market, whether it be in there head or in a temporary simulation they would come to the conclusion that the game sucks and then they could improve it. In FFX (no offense to the fans of this game) but didnt it seem that Tidus was way too whiny, i mean i had a hard time tolerating that game due to the fact Tidus wouldnt stop his whining. And I know that isnt a big deal, its a little thing, but little things have a way of accumulating. Perhaps I am wrong, the real point of this was to hear everyones point of view, and if anyone knows any excellent RPG's lemme know. (by RPG i mean classic RPG like Final Fantasy). Oh and good point with the whole replaying the same game over and over, i didnt think of that one. I might have to think before I can make a response to that one... good one, i liked that one.

you know what? you're an elitist. i know your kind, because i read the rpgamer message boards every once in a while, and you have a few kinfolk here. if something is a big-$ project with good graphics that is recieved very well by the video-game industry as a whole and not just the hardcore, old-school rpg'ers (of which i am one, by the way), then it's totally uncoll and therefore it *must* suck. that's right, you think you are really cool because you can talk about non-mainstream games as though they should be worshipped, and new, good games that are bringing people from other genres into the RPG genre as though they are trash because (God forbid) they look nice and (God forbid) they aren't *exactly* like the rest of the games in the series (to hell with innovation, let's make everything the EXACT SAME that will be so cool).

granted, there are games with excellent graphics whose game quality overall is horrid. ffix is a good example, but then again, isn't that going "back to the basics?" then, there are games whose graphics are the forefront of the industry, and are still excellent games. ffx is a good example. the growth system was innovative, the battle system was interesting and worked well with the growth system, the story was quite possibly the most well-written and -developed story in any rpg ever, the music was *excellent,* AND the graphics were leading-quality. sure, some of the characters were annoying, but that was also the fault of poor localisation in voice-overs. anyway, the point is, anytime a non-squenix flagship rpg comes out and it's actually decent (like disgaea), all you elitists talk about it like it's the Best Thing Ever because it's not super-popular. i guess it makes you guys feel cool that you like something that all the teeny-bopper new-age rpg fans haven't gotten their hands on, but to say that all rpgs nowadays, while pretty, suck, is ridiculous and it gets tiring to have to hear the same poor argument over and over again. like i said, disgaea was a great game...but better than tactics? for Christ's sake, you can SHOOT THROUGH PEOPLE. and ROCKS. with a BOW. the story was cute, but juvenile, and poorly-developed. the music was decent (it wasn't uematu or mituda by *far*), and of course the graphics were almost ps1-era. it was still a good game, but it wasn't the start of a new revolution. be objective about things and don't be just quick to praise something because it hasn't sold 10 million copies stateside.

there are no perfect games (although ff7 is damn, damn close), and furthermore (more importantly), games that come out are not going to be exactly as you expect/want them to be (the reasoning is quite simple: you aren't the designer). some elitist go so far as to say "all ps1 and beyond ff's suck." ask them why. "uh...becuase they aren't ff6!!1!11!1" people say dumb things like "i want to see espers come back," or "why aren't there any stories like star war...err...ff6's anymore?" i think someone said it before on here...who wants to play the same game?!? seriously, change and innovation can be a good thing, and a lot of times, it is. you people just refuse to recognise it because 13-year-olds enjoy the graphics. i haven't seen any decline in the quality of rpg's nowadays...and if anything, i've seen them get better (xenosaga is the exception; that game, besides the music which was hardly ever present anyway, was a total joke and has no right to take the name of a prequel to the unfinished masterpiece xenogears).

for example, there is no question that the most recent installment to the wild arms series, wild arms 3, is as good as or better than the first two. the characters are more well-developed and less clichéd (wild arms 2 had this problem more than wilds arms 1), the story is really amazing and the plot has plenty of twists and turns to keep you both interested and constantly thinking, the music was good and fit the western theme perfectly, AND on top of that it had an innovative system, while sticking to the theme of the series. the same goes for ffx. dark cloud 2 was a good action rpg -- and fullmetal alchemist promises to be, too. star ocean three look like an excellent continuation for that series. the list goes on and on.

and they are all improving. there is unquestionably more character development in new-age rpgs than in the older ones. sometimes it's not done right -- but in older games like ff4 or ff6, maybe two or three characters actually got any sort of backstory/development/plot importance (dont even start me on the blemish that was ff5). the music has for the most part taken a turn for the better. ffiv was probably one of the best soundtracks, but then there wasn't another just excellent one until ffvii. ffviii's soundtrack is probably the best part of that game. ffix had a great soundtrack, although the rest of the game kind of sucked. and ffx has a soundtrack that fit the game to a t. chrono cross' soundtrack was quite possibly the best video game soundtrack ever (although its snes counterpart was really good, too). the stories are really the most fluctuating part -- sometimes new rpgs have *really bad* stories, or at least *really bad* story elements (ff9's necron and ff8's collective amnesia). but the stories are tending away from the trite, been-done-before-a-million-times stories of past-era rpgs. oh. another evil empire. sos. ffx had a beautiful story with a very epic feel, and at the same time, it was totally original. xenogears' story, although presented in probably not the best way, was perfectly woven together (read perfect works and you'll be like "wow"). chrono cross' story, put together with trigger's, is so wonderfully convoluted that it takes actual studying of how everything fits together to understand every little thing that is going on. i think scenario writers are getting more creative and trying to put their mark on a game, rather than doing something that people have heard before.

anyway, all this isn't to say that the old games were bad. i like ffiv and ffvi damn near as much as i like ff7 and ffx. ct is still one of my favourite games of all time. the old breath of fire games i think are much better than the new ones. it's just that you guys need to get off the elitism bandwagon and start being objective about your opinions. because something is pretty and popular isn't an automatic call for you to raise arms against it, and it isn't a threat to the foundation of rpgs as a whole. it's just an evolution of a genre. the old games still exist. if you want to just play the same thing voer and over, you can still do that. but don't try to deny the rest of us enjoyment of originality and innovation. because "man these new games suck they just have good graphics" gets really old after you've heard it a million times with the same reasons that simply don't slice the cake.

of course, very few people here feel the same way i do, so you're more likely to get responces in your favour. i just wanted to try to explain the position of all of us "graphics whores" who aren't afraid to say a good game is a good game even if it IS pretty.

I basically have the same opinion as Jlo. And on the graphics issue, I agree with gozaru almost 100%. It's a fundamental law in our society today, people think they're better or "elite" just because they go against the common norm. Doesn't matter what the topic is.


Anyways, I don't know how many of you have played FFX-2, but I can't even begin to explain how deep the game goes. I mean, there's basically a seperate plot/storyline for every town on the map. At the same time, it all becomes interwoven. I really like the job system, though I feel it's pretty easy to just have a character accostomed to one job at a time (to gain experience on), and if you get in trouble, just fall back on your mastered job. Who needs a white mage when you can just mix up a potion and hi-potion (which you find craploads just laying around in chests everywhere, dont even need to be bothered to buy them) and you have yourself a megapotion with an alchemist. I barely used Rikku's mix at all in FFX, but the alchemist job is one of my favs in X-2.

Anyways, my point is, the game has outstanding graphics (I don't think anyone is going to argue against that) but then you get all these people automatically assuming it's just 3 girls running around in no clothing with no plotline. There's so many things to do, and so many NPC's with deep backgrounds. I don't know how someone can say a game like that isn't well thought out. I could never think up a game like this no matter how many years I spent. How can you say Square is selling out? There's 10 times the amount of detail from FF6. Do you want to know what the problem is? It's an overdone market. It's not like Square isn't trying to come up with new gameplay systems. They are. You have people asking to "make it as good as FF6" and then when they bring in a former element, people complain and say they aren't doing anything new. "Where's the good old days?" They died when simplicity got the heave ho. I still like these days though personally. I can't even try to go back and play some of the nes, snes, and sega games i used to. They're just so boring now. I can't even begin to count how many times I beat the first world in Mario 3. Doing that nowadays, I'd just look at it as a waste of time, like I should be letting myself experience new, better, different games.

Now, people want new, longer, more innovative games. Game companies do all this, and now the games cost $50 a pop. I want to be getting my money's worth, you know? I would never spend $50 on a chrono trigger or FF6 caliber game, if they for some "automatic profit-loss" reason decided to take it in that direction. Even though I REALLY liked them. A game like that in this day and age would just be a foolish investment.

This post has been edited by Tidu-who on 18th February 2004 22:53

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

OMG Gozaru, ur a big boy, whew, u REALLY told me off... god give me strength. Anyway, out of respect for the fellow members of Caves of Narshe I wont go completely apeshit on u. Ur lucky, cuz normally I hate it when I get profiled by a person who doesnt do the research. U know u'd make a terrible reporter, jumping to conclusions, if u'd actually read what I had posted u would have realized that I do like some of the new age games, I love FF7, and oh man FF9, i thought it was great. Ur right, FFX had a good story, from what i played i liked it, but u are obviously not a writer, or at least a Kevin Smith fan. U see, I have a thing for character development. And ur not going to enjoy the game unless the main character is A. Likeable, and B. Developed Properly. He was developed pretty good, but i didnt like the punk. I'm sorry, im not a Tidus fan, as for Auron i loved the guy, he was the pimpshit. Especially the way his armed layed in his sleeve all badass like. Now I'm willing to forget the BS u mentioned earlier, cuz that crap was out of line. I do like alot of the underground stuff, but hey kid guess what, I PLAY FINAL FANTASY, one of the most mainstream RPG's on the freaking planet. Oh yeah I'm a real underground gamer. Im done griping on moaning about ur dumb post, and for future reference, I asked for peoples opinion on games and the new age, not of what people think of me. So guess what... oh man, I almost slipped there. Anyway, back to the topic. Sorry for that little outburst, discuss away.

a threat? <yawn> lucky me. i'll feel free to tell you exactly what i think of you whenever i want to, and your internet threats have no effect on me. in fact, a real life threat would have just as little effect on me. so i'll continue to say that you are clearly an elitist; the fact that you actually *like* ff9 furhter solidifies my claims. now, i'll give it to you for recognising ff7's greatness. but then again, it's kind of hard not to.

isn't it?

as far as me not being a writer, you hit that nail right on the head. i'm certainly not a writer. i don't spend my free time on things that have absolutely no benefit to me, and writing is one of them. instead, i spend some of my free time playing video games that Other People have written. interestingly enough, my not being a writer doesn't stop me from enjoying (or not enjoying, as the case may be) these video games, and moreover, it doesn't stop me from recognising what is good and what is not. roger ebert is not a film producer. he is not a director. he is not a script author. you are not making valid points.

as far as your claims that ffx had no character development, let's compare it to the other final fantasies which had even more character development than it. unfortuantely, when we do so, we arrive at a brick wall because there happen to be *none.* no final fantasy preceding 10 had the immense amount of character interaction and growth that it had. the story was flawless from start to finish. it didn't have any necrons popping up or any mass-amnesia plot crutches ("when i was little i experimented with gf!!!!"). every character had a unique personality, and every character had interaction with every other character. the detail payed simply to the way they developed as a whole was unprecedented, nevermind the intra-group interactions (and personal development, too).

the only valid point you make is about not liking the characters. obviously, from what you say, you don;t like the characters. that's fine. you don't have to *like* the game. but you saying the game is trash or undeveloped or bad because you only like SUPER-LEET BADASSES like auron (by the way, he wears his left arm out of his sleeve in reference to an old tradition that ronin -- masterless samurai -- had back in feudal japan; braska was his master, and braska is dead, so auron is like a ronin) is laughable. and that really leads right into my next point. if every character in the game was like auron, what kind of a story would it lead to? a weak one and a boring one. at times, tidus' american voice got annoying. at times, he was a little whiny. but guess what? he is the most realistic final fantasy main character to date. we're all a little whiny sometimes, we dont always know all the answers, and we all want to protect the things we love. maybe you're a SUPER-LEET BADASS like auron, but i really doubt it. it's just unforgivable that square would add human flaws to a human character...right.

as for the rest of your post, i think it's excellent how you a) called me out for focusing on you and not the topic and then ignored the 95% of my post that was about the topic. in fact, your whole post was practically focused on me! i'm absolutely flattered, especially since you're "willing to forget" my post in it's entirety since it actually makes a good argument to the fact that rpgs have not degenerated into pretty, plotless shells of games. pay attention more closely next time, and maybe you'll realise that i don't care about you, i was just saying how obviously you fit right into the definition of elitist. don't get so mad about it, you're acting like tidus! i would appreciate it if you responded to the actual content of my post, if for nothing more than to acknowledge that, objectively, games are still doing just fine. they just aren't games you *like.* because that is a solid enough argument.

True enough, I didnt read it all the way at first, I read the first few sentences, until it pissed me off, then I read the middle til it pissed me off, and then I read the end til it pissed me off. You were stepping out of line, and being a jerk off, oh and by the way Mr. Ebert, I wasnt threatening you, a threat requires that I do something in response to you doing something that I dont agree to. There was none, I said that I was very annoyed with ur profiling. Leave it to people like u to ruin gaming, ur kind causes conflict. I simply was expressing my opinion, and u place me in a position that screws over my opinoin because u think u know how I am. Instead u had to turn this into an issue. I can label u and call u a Instigator, cuz thats what u did. U caused conflict, I deal with punks like u all the time, But like I said before, I'm not going to try and start an insult war over this. I like the fact that u had a radical opinon, ur trying to express what u think, but simply bashing and profiling others that u disagree with isnt getting u anywhere. U see, I just called u a jerk off and that was unnecessary, but u caused conflict, this conflict is also creating upheavel in this message board, so instead of others talking nicely and expressing what they think, im arguing with u for ur actions. Oh and for ur information, I never once referred to FFX-2, why? Cuz I havent played yet, but from what I've heard, its promising. So i'll play it. I'm not threatening u, and I orignally didnt want to keep the chain of conflict going, but thats what people do when they get pissed off. I eventually finished reading ur topic, and I must say u do have good points, but I still disapprove of what u referred to me as. I am sorry if u thought I was threatening u, i was just making it clear that u shouldnt just judge people by ONE post, ONE freaking post. This place is goign to start feeling like middle school again, if people start judging others much like u judged me.

I believe that the newer games particularly FFX and FFX-2 are just as good if not better then some of the older games, i.e. FFVIII. I think that they go very in depth and show more character then alot of the other games. Confewzd mentioned that a "little" problem with FFX was that Tidus was too whiney. Well that was the point, I think you or anyone else in the world would be pretty whiney if all of a sudden you were taken from your world, thrown into a totally different new one, find out that your father is the reason for all that is wrong with the world and then you have to kill him. No I expect him to be full of bliss and joy. I think that Tidus was a hell of alot less whiney then Squall. I have not seen much of a decline in quality in the new games but of course when you compare them to games like FFVI and FFVII it is almost impossible to make them better. However the games are still great and there is no reason I see to stop purchasing the games.

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

Quote (gozaru~)

i'll feel free to tell you exactly what i think of you whenever i want to

Hate to bust your bubble, champ (well, no: I love to), but not on this forum. See the rules, specifically the short but sweet section on abuse. Express your opinion, sure, but not when it comes to labelling and accusing others. Most members have learnt their lesson after being here as long as you have. I cannot understand why you seem incapable of picking up this simple rule.

Confewzd, that the same rule applies to you. If a post offends you, please bring it to us rather than going off on the poster.

Quote (gozaru~)

you are clearly an elitist; the fact that you actually *like* ff9 furhter solidifies my claims.

You're doing it again. Everyone who likes FF9 is an elitist? I like FF9, and so does more than one member of the staff who's played and enjoyed FF10. It's called an opinion, yeah? Learn to live with those of others.

To all: if you want to express your opinions on the topic, go ahead. If you want to express your negative opinions on people in the topic, please leave. Thanks.

<sigh> wow. "volatile?" come on guys, you should know me *much* better than that by now. you've seen "volatile," and this is certainly not it. just because he got completely defensive and totally overreacted is no reason to label my post as "volatile." honestly -- if the rules prevent me from introducing simple archetypes that might help to explain why people heap so much unwarranted dislike on pretty, popular games, then perhaps the rules are being a bit too harsh. sometimes people's reasoning falls outside of completely objective assessment of a game into the realm of personal psychology, and if it's "volatile" to bring that kind of point up in a discussion which has *as one of its central reasons* this very trend, then it's useless to bother with the discussion, because people refuse to be objective. you might notice that every point i made was ignored...

by the way, tiddles, i ran through the rules quickly, and didn't exactly find anything that characterised my post. i'm assuming you were referring to:

"Abuse - Plain and simple. If your post is abusive, it is not spam, but we are still going to deal with it. More about this in the Penalties section."

characterise it as abusive if you wish, but a post that was about 95% reasoning for something contrary to the topic and maybe 5% explanation of the very real phenomenon of video-game elitism (which again i stress is central to this discussion) doesn't exactly fit the definition.

to answer your question, no, everyone who likes ff9 is not an elitist. but most elitists like ff9, if for no other reason than that it went back to the original, technology-deviod (well, perhaps not deviod, but much more so than, say, 7 and 8) environments of final fantasies past. it really wasn't that good of a game, it dragged on in quite a few different places, and it has probably the least memorable story of any post-new ff (excepting 5). for those reasons, a lot of people don't like it. and for *that* reason, the elitists eat it right up. i wasn't suggesting that everyone who likes ff9 is an elitist, but when you have several different coincident pieces of information, it's a lot easier to draw decisive conclusions.

the bottom line is, i have no problem with the opinions of others. but it gets ridiculous and boring to read over and over again the same tired argument about how much new games suck and how much they are just graphically excellent games lacking any good story elements or well-developed characters, *especially when those arguments hold no water whatsoever.* it's one thing to say that you don't like a game because you don't like the characters or you didn't like the story. it's another to say that the game sucks. statements like "And by the time they realize what an RPG truly is its going to be too late" and "Nowadays RPG's that make it to the commercial level usually have Good Graphics and Bad Quality" disregard the opinions of those who actually *enjoy* the games as unworthy or perhaps uneducated (after all, if anyone likes these "bad quality" games, then they are responsible for the declination of "rpgs" and if it continues (thanks to these people) it's going to be "too late." rpg's are still being made, and they are still quality. quit acting like the victim and dont make absurd assertions like the ones i have quoted, and i won't accuse you of elitism. but if you bring elitist opinions and words to the table, then be prepared for me to use them to explain why you feel the way you do.

-edit- 200th post

This post has been edited by gozaru~ on 19th February 2004 21:16

I do believe in a way I may have over-reacted, however I believe at the time when I was labelled I felt as though my opinion would be limited due to the fact I was considered an elitist. That I had restrictions and people would take my opinion in less regard. It was very insulting to me, but I am over it, so its cool. Sorry for the drama, next time I'll just ignore things that piss me off. Oh Gozaru, in a roundabout way I am sry for over reacting, but my tolerance level for profiling is reached its edge, i mean im just now getting out of highschool, u should understand, it is about the equivilant to ur tolerance for people who bash new games. I simply made this argument, because apparently most gamers I know are elitists (by ur defination), I have met few who support the new games. If u read the number of posts ive made, u'd come to realize that I dont know what has completely saturated the world of gaming topics. As for a response to ur arguement, which is well deserved at this point. I do agree that the character development in FFX is at a mature level, considering I'm still playing the game, I wont argue becuz I will be ill-equipped with ammuntion. And I did think that the levling system was breath taking. Too the point, the title seems misleading to me, but most cases its true, alot of games out there invest all in graphics and not in story content. I'm just tired of them doing sed thing. I still have yet to play X-2 but I heard it was good.

I am what some would call an original, I have beaten every final fantasy, with the exception of X, X-2, and XI. As an original, and most people would agree with me, but there was always a feel to the game. Like, if u didnt know what game u were playing, just by playing it u'd recognize it to be a final fantasy. The new games are good, I can agree to that, they reach certain audiences and turn a profit, however it has been the recent FF's that have been lacking of this "feel". The last real one was FF9, and before that it was FF7 which by the way was incredibly breath taking. My point is sure new games are trying to make break through's as a means to escape there ancestors and make the market there own, and that is good, but in MY OPINION they havent hit the same level their predascessors... Sure they have brought slight advances to the table such as gorgeous graphics, but the characters in alot of RPG's nowadays are so dry. With the exception of FFX, i was merely pointing out that tidus was annoying, and also to respond to BGRugby, i can understand that, but Tidus was annoying before he was sucked out of his world. And perhaps it could have been becuz of the Voice Overs, but when he says I'm Cold, and I'm Hungy like 30 times in a row, and even by the third time u turn down the tv, i blame that on unnecessary implentation of dialogue. Maybe that feel is gone forever, and maybe i will adjust to the new feel of current RPG's, in theory the feel in my opinion is the perfect blend of Fantasy, Science Fiction, and Epic. The fantasy being the use of magic and medieval aspects, blended with attribute found in science fiction and modern science which include guns, and giant mechanical mog toys, and finally evey FF must of the hero of the day. The last non-FF game I felt earned this was Breath of Fire III. Which was an absolutely beautiful game. And Gozaru, if u could compose a small list of games u deem good please place them in ur next post.

And that, folks, is the end of the topic. Apologies for anyone who wanted an intelligent discussion of the subject without resorting to a one-on-one court case scenario.

Gozaru: regardless of your opinions, if you can't express yourself without acting in a high-and-mighty, holier-than-thou, condescending manner and insulting others (yes, your post does fall under the category of abuse, as we classify it), then you have no place here. We don't care if you're tired of the subject or if you've seen it before: you've no right to tell people why they think what they think.

Confewzd: We'll be honest here, you did prolong the battle more than just a bit. You returned fire, in my humble opinion, but I would be a hypocrite to say that I would never have done the same thing. And using "u" for "you" and "ur" for "your" constantly just causes pain to the thought processes in my brain.

In any event, the topic has been well and truly slaughtered and I don't want it open for fear that it will just keep going as it has. Thanks for playing.

Edit

Oh, and yes, if you have anything further to say about the way this topic was handled and closed, please PM me. I don't want to see another word about it in the public forums.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 19th February 2004 23:17

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