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Lots of hard games eh? Prove it.

Dude, no one is defending Mana's story, you're only ranting against yourself, there's really no point. The story is universally acknowledged as one of the game's weaker points.
Games should be enjoyed as a whole, not dissected for the sake of someone's argument. You're playing a game, not reading a story.

Mana's strengths? The art, animation, the world, the combat, the multiplayer. The ring system is meant to allow quick inventory management and magic on screen by different players and it's suited to that purpose. At the time it must've been revolutionary, a Squaresoft adventure you can play with your friends .

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 8th October 2015 14:58)

minimalistic story made mostly in the beat em up action style but with rpg elements, to be better than it is.Its ok to turn your brain off once in a while to enjoy mindless action.

It's not mindless though, is it. You have to choose weapons, use spells, buffs, de-buffs, use spacing, timing for special attacks, there's an elemental system. You have to figure out where to do, piece together the plot from the sparse story.
Beat 'em ups are a whole different genre, they've no place in this conversation.

I guess by your definition, Tetris is also mindless.
Oh you know what has a great story? Journey... a game without words..

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www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

If you want evidence that I beat Zelda 2 adventure of link for an example, or ninja gaiden, well I would have to meet you in person and show you, or star tropics 1 and 2.I assure you that I have experience, along with most of the mega mans, even 1.

The problem is that people compare som as a whole, including the story.If you compare games as a whole, the story must be dissected, as well as the character development.The music was kinda nice though in som.To me, the music was atmspheric and pleasant.graphically speaking some areas were very nice too in backgrounds, especially the forest part later from the cannon.I didn't like the monsters though:Too Chibi and cutesy anime.

Honestly:I preferred the gameplay in secret of evermore.The magic system was far more interesting, and better partner.The alchemy system was far more interesting.

I did like the song in the forest though, and that ice place music, and the theme for the tree shrines.

It's funny since som and soe are nearly identical, except that you make potions from reagents, but the weapon system is the same.I think both games would have been vastly Improved if remade.

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 7th October 2015 14:43)

The Japanese thought we might find games too hard remember?

I keep hearing this idea mentioned, but I'm not so sure it's true.

What about how Mega Man 2's Japanese version is easier?

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 8th October 2015 20:31)

I would have to meet you in person and show you,

I would like nothing less.

The story in SoM simply doesn't matter. Learn the difference between story and narrative, for instance Dark Souls has an amazing story and very little exposition.

Oh and while you're at it, please improve your English.

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www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 9th October 2015 20:34)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 8th October 2015 20:31)

I would have to meet you in person and show you,

I would like nothing less.

The story in SoM simply doesn't matter. Learn the difference between story and narrative, for instance Dark Souls has an amazing story and very little exposition.

Oh and while you're at it, please improve your English.

Attacking my spelling which I have shown is acceptable, is a cheap ploy of yours to be nasty and personal, as it was uncalled for.

If you are going to be a bully I will end this conversation now.

As far as story and narrative: what story and narrative does som have? I'm staring to think you are salty because someone doesn't like some som as much as you do.

All I said is:If we compare two games, we have to compare them as a whole.

Som has nothing but the whole cliche evil empire wants seeds from the tree to conquer
the world and a simple and bland love story.Even others admit it's lacking.

Also if I'm repeating myself:Let off on the nasty attacks, as they make you seem immature.Inwas trying to have a polite conversation about the game, and I even mentioned the music.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 10th October 2015 13:57

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 7th October 2015 19:43)

I think what drives me most insane, is when people compare secret of mana to better games like ff6 and chrono trigger, when both games are way better in story and character development

Here is the relevant definition of 'compare':

verb (used with object), compared, comparing.
1.
to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences.

All of your posts on this subject have been comparing SoM with other Square games. If it annoys you so much when other people do it, then why do it yourself?
If you were angry at people for saying Mana is on a similar level to CT/FF6 that'd be understandable. Except who is saying that? No one, really. They might mention them within the same paragraph because they're both games by Square on the SNES.

I don't love SoM. The story sucks and It's still a good game, SHOCK HORROR!
I enjoyed it alone once, I like playing with others. Couch co-op RPGs are still rare.

You're the salty one here, you're the one who holds CT/FF6 on a pedestal and gets furious if people dare to mention them in the same breath as other games. You're the one who makes threads terrified of your favourite games being forgotten, or not played by younger gamers. Enjoy ranting about it forever on a dying forum.

You're also ranting about story as if it's the most important part of a game. Gameplay makes a game. Story may be crucial, but it'll never be quite as important. No one would play your precious Chrono Trigger if the battle system sucked. I suggest you spend your time with books and movies instead, if story is so important to you.

I wasn't attacking your spelling, I was attacking your grammar and general understanding of the English language. Reading your posts is like sticking needles in my eyes. I'm not even sure it's a language issue.

I'm not expecting much of a response, you'll probably ignore my actual points and cry bully instead.

Oh for God's sake I just went back to see how this little argument started, when you said "It's not about getting good." I wasn't even talking about Secret of Mana then. I made a quick response aimed at Glenn, my post was talking about trophies and achievements. Yeah it wasn't entirely clear I was talking to him but my post is clearly not aimed at you, it would've made no sense. I didn't even make reference to SoM.

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www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 13th October 2015 11:03)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 7th October 2015 19:43)

I think what drives me most insane, is when people compare secret of mana to better games like ff6 and chrono trigger, when both games are way better in story and character development

Here is the relevant definition of 'compare':

verb (used with object), compared, comparing.
1.
to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences.

All of your posts on this subject have been comparing SoM with other Square games. If it annoys you so much when other people do it, then why do it yourself?
If you were angry at people for saying Mana is on a similar level to CT/FF6 that'd be understandable. Except who is saying that? No one, really. They might mention them within the same paragraph because they're both games by Square on the SNES.

I don't love SoM. The story sucks and It's still a good game, SHOCK HORROR!
I enjoyed it alone once, I like playing with others. Couch co-op RPGs are still rare.

You're the salty one here, you're the one who holds CT/FF6 on a pedestal and gets furious if people dare to mention them in the same breath as other games. You're the one who makes threads terrified of your favourite games being forgotten, or not played by younger gamers. Enjoy ranting about it forever on a dying forum.

You're also ranting about story as if it's the most important part of a game. Gameplay makes a game. Story may be crucial, but it'll never be quite as important. No one would play your precious Chrono Trigger if the battle system sucked. I suggest you spend your time with books and movies instead, if story is so important to you.

I wasn't attacking your spelling, I was attacking your grammar and general understanding of the English language. Reading your posts is like sticking needles in my eyes. I'm not even sure it's a language issue.

I'm not expecting much of a response, you'll probably ignore my actual points and cry bully instead.

Oh for God's sake I just went back to see how this little argument started, when you said "It's not about getting good." I wasn't even talking about Secret of Mana then. I made a quick response aimed at Glenn, my post was talking about trophies and achievements. Yeah it wasn't entirely clear I was talking to him but my post is clearly not aimed at you, it would've made no sense. I didn't even make reference to SoM.

But I have seen people compare som to other games and put it on a pedestal, and I am not claiming that f6 or ct are perfect.In fact:I even got angry at someone for saying ff7 is bad and praising ff6 and putting it on a pedestal.

And I have seen some made som out to be something it isn't.Videogames are not just about gameplay, but a balance of gameplay and story.A game with too many cutscenes and no gameplay is an interactive movie.

If I sound angry and was on the defense, it is because you were being belligerent for no reason.There is no need for aggression in a polite conversation.

A characters development matters, because it gives you a reason to care about the characters, and hate or dislike a villain.A mwahaha I am evil and going to conquer the world because I can villain without anything else is boring, especially since the villain is bland, and the plot is uninteresting.

A good story makes the world more interesting.
Having lots of lore makes the world better.

Ff2 on the nes did a better job, so why can't som?

Also soe had a bigger world with more exploration, and the grinding was the same.

If you are so angry, then maybe you should take a break from your pc and go do some zen gardening or take a stroll.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 13th October 2015 11:51

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 13th October 2015 11:48)

If you are so angry, then maybe you should take a break from your pc and go do some zen gardening or take a stroll.

Ahaha. Great comeback, this actually made me smile.

Quote

But I have seen people compare som to other games and put it on a pedestal

Sometimes people like different things to you, even if they don't have a big focus on story!

Quote

And I have seen some made som out to be something it isn't.

No one cares what you may or may not have seen, those mysterious others aren't in this thread, so quit talking about them.

Quote

Videogames are not just about gameplay, but a balance of gameplay and story.A game with too many cutscenes and no gameplay is an interactive movie.

I've said nothing that disagrees with this. In fact I said story was crucial, so what's the point in you pontificating about the merits of a good story in games? Are you simply just saying anything in order to have a response?

Quote

A mwahaha I am evil and going to conquer the world because I can villain without anything else is boring

Lol Kefka?

Quote

Ff2 on the nes did a better job, so why can't som?

Because as I keep pointing out, SoM is not dependant on story like FF is. Story is not the main focus.

I'd say the qualities of their story are similar, actually .
FF2's story may have fleshed out the characters more, but the plot is quite generic.

Quote

Also soe had a bigger world with more exploration, and the grinding was the same.

Irrelevant, why even bring SoE up, it's not related to your argument about story. I don't know much about SoE other than its settings are nowhere near as unique as SoM's; they all seem like cheesy movie inspired places.

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www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 13th October 2015 17:14)

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 13th October 2015 11:48)

If you are so angry, then maybe you should take a break from your pc and go do some zen gardening or take a stroll.

Ahaha. Great comeback, this actually made me smile.

Quote

But I have seen people compare som to other games and put it on a pedestal

Sometimes people like different things to you, even if they don't have a big focus on story!

Quote

And I have seen some made som out to be something it isn't.

No one cares what you may or may not have seen, those mysterious others aren't in this thread, so quit talking about them.

Quote

Videogames are not just about gameplay, but a balance of gameplay and story.A game with too many cutscenes and no gameplay is an interactive movie.

I've said nothing that disagrees with this. In fact I said story was crucial, so what's the point in you pontificating about the merits of a good story in games? Are you simply just saying anything in order to have a response?

Quote

A mwahaha I am evil and going to conquer the world because I can villain without anything else is boring

Lol Kefka?

Quote

Ff2 on the nes did a better job, so why can't som?

Because as I keep pointing out, SoM is not dependant on story like FF is. Story is not the main focus.

I'd say the qualities of their story are similar, actually .

Quote

Also soe had a bigger world with more exploration, and the grinding was the same.

Irrelevant, why even bring SoE up, it's not related to your argument about story. I don't know much about SoE other than its settings are nowhere near as unique as SoM's; they all seem like cheesy movie inspired places.

The reasons are:


Som and soe SIMILAR!!! The gameplay ring is identical, therefor comparable
Even if they are not on this forum, I am going to make a bold assertion:You are a som fanboy.You cannot be objective and therefor I will have to ignore you.

2:Better to have a more fleshed out story then no story of character development all, like ff3 on the nes.

3:Ff6 villain at least was more interesting than the som villain, and certainly more backstory.the som villain and characters are bland.Remember how everyone harps on chrono for not talking or having much backstory? Why is it ok to criticize ct and not do the same for som? I see few mention som at all.The only game I see repeatedly over hated is ff7, and that is because of the rep it has gotten from the past.

4:I do like action style RPGs, and while this remains opinion:So does your thing too remain opinion.



This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 13th October 2015 18:12

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Again you're bringing up these shadow people who criticise your beloved games and make you rant here about them.

You see few people mention SoM to criticise the characters? Probably because far fewer people have even heard of SoM compared to CT. CT is famous as hell.

Like I've already said, I'm not a huge SoM fan. I can take it or leave it, I've been pushed into its defence because I'm provoked by your sheer idiocy. You've failed to grasp my point, labelling me a fanboy instead of engaging with my argument.

Whatever: argue with yourself. because apparently.. you agree with me!



Hahaha!

Hey did you know, not much story isn't a bad thing



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www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

I forgot how many of the following I've posted before in this thread, but i just wrote this in another place so here's to copying and pasting.



1. I use keyboard for all my gaming, even 2D platformers and top-down action RPGs. Yes, I play the Ys games with keyboard. I prefer it that way. Well, first, I don't have a gamepad, but even if I did, I have more fingers to work with when I'm on keyboard.

2. 2D games have not gone out of style. 3D is not inherently better than 2D. In fact, it's more common for 3D games -- especially FPS games -- to produce simulation sickness effects. This doesn't mean that 3D is worse than 2D either. They're just different interface types, and different games benefit from different perspectives.

3. Pixel art is fine by me. Polygons are fine by me. Anything is fine by me; just make it look good. Realism is not equal to looking good, by the way.

4. Social commentary in videogames and on videogames is an interesting thing, and should not be discouraged. There's ham-handed social commentary in some videogames, and there's ham-handed social commentary about videogames, of course, and they suck, but there's ham-handed everything else in and about videogames too. Social commentary is really nothing special. It's just people talking about stuff. People who hate on feminists or artsy indie games or such need to stop being so darn sensitive.

5. The JRPG is not dead. It's quite alive and kicking. It only looked dead because you had a lot fans in the woodwork who didn't want to drop $100+ on a new system and games, but then see what happened when they arrived on PC? All those fans came out of the woodwork and happily shelled out anywhere from $5 to $50 for some nice games.

6. Competitive gaming tends to suck. At least, I don't care for competitive gaming. I guess it's possible to have a friendly competitive gaming community, theoretically, but the feel I get from what I've seen of competitive scenes is generally one of being way too uptight, too many incentives to cheat, smurfing, rigged games just for rank purposes, high levels of anxiety, ......oh, and trash-talking, just to add one more problem to all the other ones.

7. When you're winning so hard in TF2 you're just doing a taunt while riding the bomb cart and you can get away with that for almost the entire round, YOU should be calling a team scramble yourself. Or at least upvote a scramble vote when someone else calls one. If you care so much about winning the match that you're willing to make the game unfun for the losing team who's being spawncamped and boring for half of your own team, then please stop playing TF2. Go play some other more competitive game. And don't give me the excuse of "if we spawncamp them they'll learn to be better". No. You're actually limiting the amount of play experience they're getting, and reducing the amount of exposure they get to observing more of how the game works on a normal basis and how people better than them play. So, yeah. Scramble, or go away.

(One thing that I can do if people downvote a scramble, especially if I'm personally pretty high on the score list and especially if I'm on the winning team, is to tell people that I'm leaving because the players are refusing to scramble. Not everyone can do this all the time, unfortunately.)

8. There are no such things as "must have" or "must play" games. Best way to find a game you want to play is NOT to ask people what games they'd recommend, but rather to ask yourself what gaming experience YOU want. Not all games will provide the same experience. Games are not interchangeable. They are all unique experiences.

Now if you really want to know what games other people are chattering a lot about currently, just ask for...well..."what are some currently popular games with large playerbases?", or something like that.

9. Stop complaining about censorship and cut content in games, UNLESS you are talking about major story points or game modes that are missing. If all you're talking about is one still image or one set of sprites where the developer changed some clothing on a character, when there's no change to the gameplay or the story, then you're beating a dead horse that has basically no significance whatsoever. Also, try to pick better things than smut and near-porn to push this issue, PLEASE.

10. You are not entitled to Japanese voice acting in your games. In fact, you're not even entitled to ANY voice acting. See those legendary SNES games that most everyone speaks highly of? They don't have any voice acting at all, yet they tell the most epic of tales and have become widely-revered games. If you get any voice acting, be thankful, as long as there's a way to turn off the voices. If you don't get any voice acting, use your imagination. Or whatever you do when you're reading a book.

11. Don't hype. Hype makes you obnoxious. It makes you do and say stupid things. Anything from dumping huge sums of money on preorders for games and companies you know almost nothing about, to irritating everyone around you with how much you rave and scream about a game. Or a TV show. Or anything else.

12. When you want to request things from publishers and developers -- such as content and feature requests or updates on games -- ask politely and nicely.

13. DRM-free is best. Steam is acceptable, though. The most important things are: (1) Be thankful for what you can get, but also (2) Put your money where your mouth is, if you care about a certain thing.

14. I like controlling where I install my games. I know a lot of people like Steam for its convenience, but I personally prefer the old-school tried-and-true method:
(1) Choose installation directory myself. Now I know where the game files are.
(2) To play game, go to the game files, and start the correct .EXE file.
Every PC gamer ought to be able to do this. I won't fault people for not knowing this, but I will expect them to be willing to learn.

15. Based on the wider variety of games available now on Steam, Steam is a better platform today than it was 5 years ago. Do some Steam games suck? Yeah. Have there always been some Steam games that sucked? Yeah. Steam could use a bit of sprucing up to enable negative filtering in a more user-friendly way in the search, but honestly, just don't bother with the frontpage; it's useless, unless you're extremely bored. Steam's current selection isn't really better or worse than it used to be.

Just to observe some fun irony: there are those people who felt it's worse than a few years ago, but a few years ago, I had no interest in Steam at all because it didn't have any games I liked. Heh.

16. Console gaming is cool. PC gaming is also cool. Stop trashing the other side. Let people play things the way they want to play them, as long as they're not annoying or being unfair to other people in the process.

Actually, in general, stop trashing other people's tastes. Thank you.

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

1. I heard you saying Sonic is dead? Good luck convincing me that when Sonic still has games getting out.

2. The reason I'm no longer a fan of the PC platform is because of the DRM. So PC master race kiddies, no amounts of bragging about pointless things such as 1080p 60fps, or rarely done things such as modding (today that is) will do any change on my stance or make me not switch over to console gaming...

3. Gaming on Android never was bad. There are games that are designed to try and suck up your wallet however it can yes, but there are also games that you can pay one-time only and get a full game in its place. As well as games with only limited IAPs. Some games are even as complex as their console and PC counterparts.

4. A censor button for everyone will not kill for games with objectionable content.

5. DRM-free should only be supported. Paying for anything related to DRM such as Steam games only deliver the following message to corporations: you are ready to be forked and to be treated like a pirate. Be smart, vote with your wallet the games that you can play without having to get the corporation's permission first on what you do with your games, especially at full price instead of appropriately named 'rental prices'. Don't accept Steam, Origin, or Uplay, and the corporations will bend to you, like it should be in the first place.

6. Want to support DRM-free gaming? Bust out some money over to GOG.com. You'll be treated the best for the same price if not cheaper, with DRM-free games as well as extra downloadable goodies (such as manuals, soundtracks, artwork, etc) with your purchase.

7. PS2 emulation sucks. There isn't much to say here.

8. Don't like a game's content? Then leave that game, or if you're not on PC, sell it if its a physical copy. That said, games with objectionable content should always be not on the front page of any website, and its better to not provide uncensored images for certain content. Looking at you though, GOG, even if I praised you a while ago.

9. Resolution and framerates are as pointless as ever. 1080p 60fps or 360p 30fps, if a game sucks, it'll suck because of the gameplay, and if a game rocks, it'll rock because of the gameplay, and resolution and framerate will not change that. So do the graphics in general. If you want to talk about 1080p, no, even 4K quality graphics, go watch a movie or something, it'll have better graphics than the best graphical game ever.

10. In my opinion, digital media is inferior to physical media. While most digital media seems to be DRM'd as heck (with online activations and stuff), and provide little extras save for the stuff on GOG, and needs to be downloaded and stored on one of your hard drives firsthand before being used, physical media's DRM may be more lenient (keep the disc inserted) though some physical media are just digital media in disguise, avoid them like the plague. Physical media also includes extras that digital media would sometimes skip, and it also has the benefit of already not requiring either a download or hard disk space. Useful for slow internet connections and computers with near full hard drives. Not to mention a box with the media inside is simply more valuable than a digital copy that wouldn't feel any different than a pirate copy besides where you got the copy from and a line or two in the code of the media being changed to take the DRM off, and physical media when possible can be resold and traded as long as its not a digital media in disguise (see the Metal Gear Solid V PC disc, ohmygod).

I think that's all for now.

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I am Exdeath. Step aside pesky clowns, or your warranty is Void!

SOMA is boring. It has some interesting ideas and it feels like it addresses them often enough, but the entirety of the base game is so mechanically simple and disconnected from those ideas that it just becomes this slog of repetitive tasks with the reward of possibly seeing what amounts to Half Life 2-era interactive cutscenes where said ideas actually discussed for a brief scene...then it's back to the slog.

This post has been edited by Narratorway on 30th November 2015 01:51

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

Oh, now that you remind me of it...

11. Half-Life 2 is simply overrated. Felt like a long walk, with each walk earning me an annoying Alyx cutscene after fighting who knows what of aliens and combine soldiers that shouldn't have been since the first game... the first game is somewhat better, but you know, I'd wager that Duke Nukem 3D is a much better game than the Half...Deads!

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I am Exdeath. Step aside pesky clowns, or your warranty is Void!

Quote

5. DRM-free should only be supported. Paying for anything related to DRM such as Steam games only deliver the following message to corporations: you are ready to be forked and to be treated like a pirate. Be smart, vote with your wallet the games that you can play without having to get the corporation's permission first on what you do with your games, especially at full price instead of appropriately named 'rental prices'. Don't accept Steam, Origin, or Uplay, and the corporations will bend to you, like it should be in the first place.

To be fair, though, some games on Steam are natively DRM-free (i.e. they don't use Steam Custom Executable Generation (CEG), or otherwise don't require Steam to be running for the game to be run).

Quote

6. Want to support DRM-free gaming? Bust out some money over to GOG.com. You'll be treated the best for the same price if not cheaper, with DRM-free games as well as extra downloadable goodies (such as manuals, soundtracks, artwork, etc) with your purchase.

There are also other ways to support DRM-free. Many offerings in Humble Bundles and the Humble Store are DRM-free, as are many offerings in the Groupees bundles. In these cases, people who don't want to abandon Steam but also want to support the cause of DRM-freedom can also look to these options.

Quote

SOMA is boring. It has some interesting ideas and it feels like it addresses them often enough, but the entirety of the base game is so mechanically simple and disconnected from those ideas that it just becomes this slog of repetitive tasks with the reward of possibly seeing what amounts to Half Life 2-era interactive cutscenes where said ideas actually discussed for a brief scene...then it's back to the slog.

Oh, c'mon, Aria of Sorrow is better than that! :PPPPPPPPPP

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Another unpopular opinion:

So what if some stuff gets translated a little wrong or gets a little too much flavor added? As long as the overall production works, it's okay. And honestly, sometimes it's better with a little more flavor.

For example, would Yang's throwable kitchen implement be notable if it were called Knife? Nah. Now, on the other hand, throwing a SPOON for 9999 damage? Yeah, that's one legendary spoon.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 30th November 2015 07:33

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th November 2015 08:49)

To be fair, though, some games on Steam are natively DRM-free (i.e. they don't use Steam Custom Executable Generation (CEG), or otherwise don't require Steam to be running for the game to be run).

On another end though, Steam provides developers a braindead easy way to implement all of that anti-customer stuff into their games, the DRM, and allows developers to do all flavors of it, between a game that won't launch without Steam and without telling you anything, a game that will throw a window because Steam is not running or EVEN LETTING YOU INTO THE GAME and then complaining that Steam is not running and exiting (that's Bad Rats for you). Another thing I want to point is that while every game on GOG is advertised as DRM-free on their own pages, the store pages for games on Steam only mention whether the game in question is DRM'd with a third party DRM. That's it. It does not bother to tell you whether the game requires just Steam, or not at all. Tropico 4 requires Steam and a Kalypso account, but only the Kalypso account requirement is mentioned. Shantae Risky's Revenge is DRM-free, but no mention about it being DRM-free is there on its store page. In other words, no clear distinction is made between DRM-free games and non-DRM'd games on Steam, and its left up to you to find which games are DRM-free and not, by trial and error. Not really attractive even for just DRM-free gaming, which is also why I recommend not supporting it at all. Even the DRM-free games are not that many.

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th November 2015 08:49)

There are also other ways to support DRM-free.  Many offerings in Humble Bundles and the Humble Store are DRM-free, as are many offerings in the Groupees bundles.  In these cases, people who don't want to abandon Steam but also want to support the cause of DRM-freedom can also look to these options.

The problem with offerings such as Humble Bundle is that 1) they only put up DRM-free bundles like half the time, whereas Steam keys are basically abused there, and 2) if your purchase is more than $1, you're getting your Steam keys even if you'll never ask for them, and publishers may count it as a Steam sale. Why support these offerings who don't even do DRM-free all the time when you could support GOG which is basically, entirely DRM-free to begin with? That's why I said GOG is the best option to support DRM-free gaming, because the entire service bases itself also around its DRM-free nature. Not to mention that Humble Bundle and friends PALES to GOG when it comes to the extras. GOG also sells extras with their games. Be happy if Humble Bundle let you download extras to your games. If I got Freedom Planet from Humble Bundle, I wouldn't have the wallpapers, artwork, avatars and concept art that are available to you with the GOG purchase. I've got Duke Nukem 3D, both Steam's Megaton Edition and GOG's Atomic Edition, and I've only got the ringtones/SMS tones, two wallpapers, some artworks, one avatar and the manual with the Atomic Edition on GOG, not the Megaton Edition! You get more VALUE by buying into GOG.


In a nutshell: the DRM-free situation on Steam is not worthy enough to support them just for the DRM-free games, and GOG has the best value for the customer as a DRM-free and extras vendor over Humble Bundle and friends.

This post has been edited by Pooka on 30th November 2015 19:36

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I am Exdeath. Step aside pesky clowns, or your warranty is Void!

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allows developers to do all flavors of it, between a game that won't launch without Steam and without telling you anything, a game that will throw a window because Steam is not running or EVEN LETTING YOU INTO THE GAME and then complaining that Steam is not running and exiting (that's Bad Rats for you).

All these flavors are equivalent as far as I'm concerned. Also you forgot to name the flavor where the game will force-start Steam.

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Another thing I want to point is that while every game on GOG is advertised as DRM-free on their own pages, the store pages for games on Steam only mention whether the game in question is DRM'd with a third party DRM. That's it. It does not bother to tell you whether the game requires just Steam, or not at all.

This is true.

I chalk it up to Steam not doing it because it's not in their interest to do so.

However, there is at least one site that makes a list of DRM-free games on Steam -- i.e. do not require Steam to be running in order for the game to run. I can also speak from my own experience, as I have on-and-off kept my own list of games from my library, using only data generated personally on whether a game can run without Steam (or whether it throws one error or another weirdness -- and there I do differentiate between the flavors, incidentally).

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The problem with offerings such as Humble Bundle is that 1) they only put up DRM-free bundles like half the time, whereas Steam keys are basically abused there, and 2) if your purchase is more than $1, you're getting your Steam keys even if you'll never ask for them, and publishers may count it as a Steam sale. Why support these offerings who don't even do DRM-free all the time when you could support GOG which is basically, entirely DRM-free to begin with?

Because not all games are available in all digital stores, and since Steam lets me do it, I acquire most of my Steam games through non-Steam sources anyway. Various bundles, bundle-related storefronts like Humble Store, as well as other retailers that sell Steam keys such as GamersGate.

I also buy things on GOG. The exclusivity between GOG and Steam is a bit of an issue to people who care too much about Steam features, but I'm willing to forgo that. There is, however also the fact that the playerbase usually gathers on the Steam forums for a given game, and you occasionally get GOG customers posting on the Steam forum in order to get tech support from the devs.

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Not to mention that Humble Bundle and friends PALES to GOG when it comes to the extras. GOG also sells extras with their games. Be happy if Humble Bundle let you download extras to your games. If I got Freedom Planet from Humble Bundle, I wouldn't have the wallpapers, artwork, avatars and concept art that are available to you with the GOG purchase.

This, of course, depends on how much those extras matter to you.

Sometimes, they're totally worth it. For me, "worth it" means "includes the game's soundtrack". I've certainly played around with other extras, but they're not dealmakers or dealbreakers for me. I will consider the presence or absence of the soundtrack, however, when making a purchase decision, between different sites.

And, knowing that I bought Terraria long ago on Steam and found that it (disappointingly) had Steam DRM, when I found out that Terraria released on GOG and actually came with a full two-disc soundtrack, I went and bought an extra copy there.

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In a nutshell: the DRM-free situation on Steam is not worthy enough to support them just for the DRM-free games, and GOG has the best value for the customer as a DRM-free and extras vendor over Humble Bundle and friends.

In a nutshell, on my side: I'm not a purist for anything. I have made purchases of digital entertainment media from Amazon, Bundle in a Box, Desura, Game Music Bundle, GamersGate, GOG, The Green Light Bundle, Groupees, Humble Bundle, Humble Store, Indie Gala, Indie Gala Store, Indie Royale, Playism, Steam, and even Kickstarter (if that can be considered a distributor).

Your primary focus may be on supporting distribution means that you like, but my primary focus is on supporting games (and related products) that I like, with a secondary focus on supporting distribution means that I like. I do prefer DRM-free, but some things just aren't available on GOG. Similarly, though, some things just aren't available on Steam either -- for example, Flying Red Barrel, one of the shmups made by Orange_Juice (most famous for their 5th anniversary game 100% Orange Juice), which is only available on GamersGate and Desura. Incidentally, the vast majority of the playerbase for 100% OJ is on Steam because only that version is actively maintained by the devs. Do you see how complicated this picture gets? So yeah, I have to keep my eyes on every source.

Ideally, I'd get a DRM-free source that also provides a Steam key, so I would be able to have a DRM-free copy for myself in case anything happens but I'd also be able to reap the benefits of something being on Steam. However, even when I can't have that option, I'm perfectly fine with buying something on GOG, at a comparable price. I have 48 items in my GOG library, of which 27 are games I paid for, including notable entries like Rogue Legacy (which I just beat), FTL, Strike Suit Zero, Neverwinter Nights 2 Complete (which is NOT available on Steam), and Never Alone. I even picked up GOG's D&D bundle for a friend who's really into D&D.

GOG was only hampered by having a smaller selection early on, but even then I am quite a fan of older games, and having enjoyed games like Hocus Pocus and Duke Nukem as a kid without having paid for them, I was glad that GOG carried them. Right now, some Commander Keen games are on Steam but I'm waiting for GOG to pick them up.

In fact, I actually trust GOG more with things like updating games to work on newer Windows versions -- that was a problem with the Thief games, which is why I held off on buying them on Steam a few years ago, and I later got them all on GOG instead.

In a few cases, I have even multi-purchased a game from both GOG and Steam. Though this is very much dependent on the game and is a very rare occurrence.

Also, funny thing: I think I spent more during the 2015 summer sales period on GOG than I did on Steam.

By the way, what's your username on GOG? We should at least link up so I can expand my Galaxy friends list.

Speaking of Galaxy, I really like it, and I want to use it more, but I have some trouble using it -- and I can't find a convenient place to ask questions about it. Do you know where I should do that?

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 30th November 2015 22:02

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th November 2015 23:49)

All these flavors are equivalent as far as I'm concerned.  Also you forgot to name the flavor where the game will force-start Steam.

It just gets worse when the game itself actually runs and boots you into the main menu and then tells you that Steam is required to play it. And yeah, there's also the flavor that will force-start it, and there are other flavors that will force-start it if the game can find it and will just play normally if it can't.

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th November 2015 23:49)

I chalk it up to Steam not doing it because it's not in their interest to do so.

But again though, this website is also made by the efforts of the community who a lot like yourself, have tried these games personally and shared their experiences them. However, their scope in that ordeal is quite limited to the games they get to buy and which they try to run via the .exe, so they simply don't cover all the games on the service. It is really not in the service's interest to do it because they would rather like you using them as DRM and leaving you in the darkness about which can be detached from the service.

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th November 2015 23:49)

I also buy things on GOG.  The exclusivity between GOG and Steam is a bit of an issue to people who care too much about Steam features, but I'm willing to forgo that.  There is, however also the fact that the playerbase usually gathers on the Steam forums for a given game, and you occasionally get GOG customers posting on the Steam forum in order to get tech support from the devs.

Usually if you have to show up at another store than the one you bought your product in for tech support, then the publisher is probably terrible to begin with. There's dedicated game forums and there's also their tech support emails, so why should I get to the steam forums of the game? That's a problem.

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th November 2015 23:49)

This, of course, depends on how much those extras matter to you.

Even if the extras are not a deal breaker in a sense of the word, it is still an advantage over the bundles and probably Steam itself, because you get extra bang for your buck, alongside the DRM-free nature and such. Speaking of Terraria, I'd love to get it on GOG and forget about my Steam copy for it.

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 30th November 2015 23:49)

In a nutshell, on my side: I'm not a purist for anything.  I have made purchases of digital entertainment media from Amazon, Bundle in a Box, Desura, Game Music Bundle, GamersGate, GOG, The Green Light Bundle, Groupees, Humble Bundle, Humble Store, Indie Gala, Indie Gala Store, Indie Royale, Playism, Steam, and even Kickstarter (if that can be considered a distributor).

All good and well, but in this time and age, it is only through voting your wallet which distribution methods you pay that will move things over to your preferred distribution, in which case that's DRM-free. Having had a sizable backlog even not counting the Steam library of decent games, it is simply in my interest to support DRM-free, and not from a particular distributor but the idea of DRM-free in its entirety. I don't have to pay top dollar for a game that'll disappear the moment I lose the internet, rendering me unable to enjoy it. Also, it is in your best interest to support those developers who actively update all their distributions of the game, than those who force you to bend over to them. You should make companies bend over to you to sell you their product, and not let yourself get sold to these products.

Yes, GOG actually bothers to make their games work on various versions of Windows as opposed to selling the product and then running away and letting you figure out how to operate it. With GOG, I'm more relieved that a majority of the games will run on the latest Windows with no difficulties, and that's another point that makes GOG stands out as the distribution channel that bends to you to sell their products. That and the old games of course.

As it stands though, 2015 is the year I made the switch at last in many a sense. Screw paying full price for a game while still having restrictions put on its usage. There are better forms to get.

My username on GOG is PookaMustard, and speaking of GOG, I think there are threads dedicated to that on GOG's own forums, though I do encourage not to use the forums frequently with the community as they seem to be really toxic right now. I like that I can use Galaxy or not and still have access to my games, best idea for a client to be made.

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I am Exdeath. Step aside pesky clowns, or your warranty is Void!

Unpopular gaming opinions? I got a million of em.

Just off the top of my head, 3-D is inferior to 2-D (in terms of controlling the game; nothing against 2.5D), because we are almost all still playing on 2-D screens.

First Person Shooters are a dead mule that's having 48 million metric tons of gas kicked out of it. I cannot believe people love pretending to be a hand holding a gun shooting everything so much.

Final Fantasy was better when the summon animations were kept to 7 seconds tops. Any longer than that and summons become a chore, and upset the flow of the battles.

Castlevania was better before Symphony. Symphony was great, but then every damn CV game tried to copy it and failed. And don't get me started on the 3-D Castlevanias.

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X is blue.

Sometimes I wonder how many of these unpopular opinions are set up against strawmen. Not calling any out in particular, because it's entirely possible that I'm just not enough of a gamer to realize what "real gamers" are up to by and large!

Anyway, here's one that I don't think I've espoused in this thread yet: I have absolutely zero issue with the fact that Square Enix are doing more games for mobile and fewer for handheld, or that those games tend to be ports. For one, they're not using their own developers for those games, they're contracting out the work. It's not taking devs away from the AAA game you might want. Two, mobile app development is generally cheap relative to console or handheld development, and the company having better ROI is theoretically good news for those wanting more new games.

Here's another that I just now wanted to echo from seeing it much earlier in the thread: I also don't like The World Ends With You. I find the battle system overly complicated and the actual storyline uninteresting, at least having gotten three or four hours into it.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Now that you brought it up...

12. What's a real gamer? Isn't the point of gaming is to enjoy playing games, no matter what? I may hate some games with a passion and even call them not games, but why should I play a game exactly? Should I play it to have fun and enjoy the experience while it lasts, or should I play only to call myself a real gamer and smack unreal gamers or wha? I seriously don't understand this 'real gamer' business.

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I am Exdeath. Step aside pesky clowns, or your warranty is Void!

The whole idea of "real gamers" or "real" anything reeks of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

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X is blue.

Quote (Pooka)

Usually if you have to show up at another store than the one you bought your product in for tech support, then the publisher is probably terrible to begin with. There's dedicated game forums and there's also their tech support emails, so why should I get to the steam forums of the game? That's a problem.

In the specific case I'm thinking of, it's an indie-ish localization team with about 10 people working on like 10 loc projects simultaneously, and the release we're talking about is a ten-year-old 50-hour JRPG and a 100-hour JRPG with the buggiest code imaginable and there's one programmer (who is a freaknig genius and probably the only person left on this world who knows the code inside and out) working on it. They actually needed to bring on a longtime series fan and fansite owner to help with community management early on, and even now, said programmer's significant other (who is a community manager for another devteam) frequently helps out on an unofficial basis.

It happens more often with smaller devteams, obviously, which basically means most of my games since I basically don't buy big-name stuff. Not because I hate it, but because it much more rarely strikes my fancy.

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Screw paying full price for a game while still having restrictions put on its usage. There are better forms to get.

To be fair, I'm far more likely to pay rock-bottom prices than full price.

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My username on GOG is PookaMustard, and speaking of GOG, I think there are threads dedicated to that on GOG's own forums, though I do encourage not to use the forums frequently with the community as they seem to be really toxic right now. I like that I can use Galaxy or not and still have access to my games, best idea for a client to be made.

I sent you an invite.

And I can't help but think of that one FF6 theme just by looking at a window with the title "Search for friends".

Quote (R51)

Sometimes I wonder how many of these unpopular opinions are set up against strawmen.

Perhaps the thread should be retitled to "Controversial gaming opinions that you have".

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Sometimes I wonder how many of these unpopular opinions are set up against strawmen.

I've found that overly complicated battle systems are a thing in JRPGs for some reason. Never been a fan of that myself either.

Intuitiveness good. Simplicity not necessary but intuitiveness is priority. Complexity for complexity's sake bad.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 1st December 2015 19:14

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 13th October 2015 22:35)

Again you're bringing up these shadow people who criticise your beloved games and make you rant here about them.

You see few people mention SoM to criticise the characters? Probably because far fewer people have even heard of SoM compared to CT. CT is famous as hell.

Like I've already said, I'm not a huge SoM fan. I can take it or leave it,  I've been pushed into its defence because I'm provoked by your sheer idiocy. You've failed to grasp my point, labelling me a fanboy instead of engaging with my argument.

Whatever: argue with yourself. because apparently.. you agree with me!



Hahaha!

Hey did you know, not much story isn't a bad thing

That post was some time ago, and It was before I saw the idiocy of people comparing an action rpg with a different genre, especially since it annoys me when people compare games and forget to compare stories and characters and plots.Simplicity can be a good thing too.Somehow I like the Lufia series more.I admit I never played legend of mana, so I can't say if it's better.I heard some say it's better.I think what it comes down to, I am also comparing it now and not in the same mindset anymore, because that was years ago when I first played it, and I know a lot more now than I did then.When secret of mana came out, I kinda accepted it and didn't really think about it because I was a kid, and didn't know much about games then.I happen to really like action RPGs because at times turn based games can be really annoying sometimes with the encounter rates, like in ff3 on the nes, and ff2 on the nes.Thinking about it now, I was impressed them, but I was more easily impressed then.Now I think the gameplay is flawed like many have said before about the ring system and you I believe.

Want to know a game I don't hate as much as others for some odd reason? FF8.Sure I hate the card queen quest and the card game rules, but the story is so cheesy that it is entertaining.I think despite its shortcomings, it's cutscenes are relatively good quality, and some battles just feel right, like the garden battles and the music.I think also some of the dialogue like one of selphies lines is so bad it's funny.

Glen magus Harvey would you say that ff8 battle system is overly complex?
Give me an example please.I was thinking about that because I remember spooky harping on all the tutorials for everything.

I also want to talk about that world ends with you with ranger.I actually thought the game was pretty interesting in gameplay but I didn't get very far because I kept dying and wasn't used to the gameplay.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 5th December 2015 13:36

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 5th December 2015 08:30)

Glen magus Harvey would you say that ff8 battle system is overly complex?

I have not played FF8 so I can't say.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I thought of something: I prefer ff2 nes to ff3 nes, even if both systems are horrible.The idea of being able to make any character the tank or caster is a cool idea.I actually turned the girl into a warrior and one of the other guys into a Mage.

I wasn't crazy about either story mind you, but I somehow feel that ff3 nes was lesser of a story, and the lack of development from the onion kids was disappointing.The places were creative though, that I admit.I even liked the job system, but I think ff5 job system is better, and I prefer. Tactics lions job system on ps1 over ff5 simply because it's more strategical.

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 29th November 2015 05:48)

6. Competitive gaming tends to suck. At least, I don't care for competitive gaming. I guess it's possible to have a friendly competitive gaming community, theoretically, but the feel I get from what I've seen of competitive scenes is generally one of being way too uptight, too many incentives to cheat, smurfing, rigged games just for rank purposes, high levels of anxiety, ......oh, and trash-talking, just to add one more problem to all the other ones.

Translation: It's not my thing, therefore it must objectively suck.

C'mon man. There's no need to be ignorant, you're smarter than that.

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www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 7th December 2015 07:28)

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 29th November 2015 05:48)

6. Competitive gaming tends to suck. At least, I don't care for competitive gaming. I guess it's possible to have a friendly competitive gaming community, theoretically, but the feel I get from what I've seen of competitive scenes is generally one of being way too uptight, too many incentives to cheat, smurfing, rigged games just for rank purposes, high levels of anxiety, ......oh, and trash-talking, just to add one more problem to all the other ones.

Translation: It's not my thing, therefore it must objectively suck.

C'mon man. There's no need to be ignorant, you're smarter than that.

Dude, I'm just describing my own experience of seeing it.

If you have a competitive scene where everyone is good-natured and mutually respectful, that's really awesome.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I think any scene about anything where everyone is good natured and mutually respectful is rare, or non existent. That's the thing about humans..

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www.youtube.com/blinje
The victor sacrificed the vanquished to the heavens

Quote (Blinge Odonata @ 7th December 2015 08:28)

Translation: It's not my thing, therefore it must objectively suck.

C'mon man. There's no need to be ignorant, you're smarter than that.

That describes pretty much every single post in this thread, though, doesn't it? That's kind of how I see it, anyway, and that's part of why I've weighed in relatively infrequently, personally. Kind of a cheap shot when viewed through that lens, IMO.

Quote (GMH)

If you have a competitive scene where everyone is good-natured and mutually respectful, that's really awesome.

And that's why I tend to not play games online with people I don't know. Any scene with random people tends to become competitive and quickly full of people that don't make it fun for duffers like me. Back when we had larger-scale CoN games, though, I think we had that dynamic because we all knew each other and we were never more than ten or so people anyway.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?