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Quote (chevleclair @ 12th May 2015 01:15)

Men are automatically assumed to be child molesters or rapists.

These people aim to treat the person who believes that women should do the cooking the same way you treat say, Ed Gein or Ted Bundy. Is that really called for? Should someone who made a quick glance at an erogenous zone be treated the same as a serial rapist?

No they're not, and no that's not at all what people want. Who does these things? I think we should avoid making blanket statements that clearly do not represent the majority of people.

Quote (chevleclair)

I totally agree about acknowledging the existence of bias, but to use them to push your own agenda or to bully others is wrong. Regardless of why, people have a right to think how they want to. The best way to beat these stereotypes is to show as many examples of that particular profile to not be true. These people force their agendas on others in order to empower themselves, or to retain any power they might have. They push it to the extremes.

I think that's misdirection. It shifts blame and responsibility from those that might be involved in perpetuating stereotypes and prejudices to those that are complaining about not having rights. I'm not saying that there aren't bullies that wave the banner of social justice. I've known some of them, and I've heard of many more. But the people we should blame are not the people trying to push their agenda, rather the people that are perpetuating stereotypes.

Quote (chevleclair)

I saw a 21 year old black man try to lure an 11 year old girl into his car and make sexual advances to her. He thought he should get away with it because he was black, and I had no right to intervene.

Which brings me to this. I'm not sure why you told this story, but it's the reason I've been struggling with my reply. I don't want to sound harsh, but I think that's wrong on many levels. First, you're using an anecdotal piece of evidence to reinforce a general point. One 21 year-old black man obviously does not necessarily apply to the black population in general. Second, you gave us no information other than the man's desire for you not to intervene. We don't have many more details about the attack, such as his mental state. And again, what would it matter? What if this guy was just an immoral person, or an idiot that clearly has never looked at criminal data which clearly shows that such a "black privilege" does not exist? What would it tell us about the entire black population? Nothing at all. Third, and I don't want to stress this, and I'm not saying that you're doing this for malicious reasons, but the story you told does adhere to a old and ugly stereotype of black men assaulting women. Again, I'm not saying you were doing that, but I think you should be careful.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Okay, this is probably something you haven't had much experience with. It's a pandemic, because most people, in general, are decent folk. However, those who aren't decent people actually believe it is their right to do as they please. And, I don't think extenuating circumstances are allowable when any person drives up to a little girl and tries to lure her into a car. The words he was saying were not repeatable in polite company.

As far as the legal system is concerned, you bet they assume the worst in men. After two suicide attempts by my son's mother, and a couple of incidents where my son was threatened by her friends and my life, I filed for primary custody of him. When she was sent the papers, she responded with no contest. 36 times. Each of those thirty-six times required a court hearing, to which she didn't show. To make matters worse, the courts saw that he lived with me and 3 medical examinations were required before the court decided to make any decisions. There was the assumption that he was abused.

Meanwhile, not far from me, two more parents were fighting for custody of two little girls. The mother was the primary caregiver. After the father demanded a hair follicle test on one of her girls, which yielded cocaine residue in her hair, the mother freely admitting she uses, and stating she would continue to use (after somehow being caught with a lab in her own home, where she was keeping the girls), the father had recently found employment and was living on his own, capable of supporting his daughters, support system in place and everything. The courts decided that she was still a fit mother.

The point of it is that perhaps things are being skewed in so many different ways.

Let me reiterate - A majority of people, regardless of race, creed, orientation, and gender, are good people. I list the opposite extremes of those you mention because it does exist, same as those on your end, and are more rampant than you might imagine. You may not believe me, but that is the fact.

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

Look, it seems like you've a lot of stuff, and I'm sorry about that. But I think you're using your own specific and personal experiences to paint the whole picture. I think that's wrong. To assume that, because you've seen people treated a certain way that it makes it s societal pandemic is just wrong.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I said it twice in the previous post. I said it once before that.

The majority of people are decent.

I've been beyond the narrow scope of just my hometown, and experienced things differently than what the media tells us. You speak as if I'm the only one who has experienced these problems, and if you look around a little more, you'll find others who are experiencing something similar.

I try not to make blanket statements, but in my experience, every rule one sets in stone can be broken (and often is).

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

Chevleclair, sorry you've had all this trouble but you still haven't shown how anybody assumed you were a child molester or rapist in your custody battle. If that were the case, wouldn't you have lost custody? It seems to me that if you are the one who filed for full custody, the medical examinations would be to check for misconduct on the mother's part since she's the one who would stand to lose custody. Maybe I'm completely wrong here since I'm not too familiar with this subject or maybe you just need to elaborate more, but I'm not convinced yet.

Still, even if we take your claim at face value, we never said that no discrimination or stereotyping of any kind exists against men. In fact, liberalism and feminism both seek to right these things as well (see HeForShe). The reason progressive movements focus on women instead of men, or Blacks instead of Whites, isn't because they want to dismiss any biases against men or against Whites. It's because, by and large, the power structure in our society is run by and favors White men. That doesn't mean being White or male is a free pass from facing difficulty. It means that there are many more things they don't have to face or even think about than there are for the marginalized groups.

Lastly, you mentioned that people who speak against sexist comments of the male gaze want those things to be treated the same as rape. No. They don't. Rape is a crime punishable with prison time. Nobody is saying men who cat call should be put in prison. They're saying they should stop because it's harassment. They're saying that men should acknowledge that when they do such things, they are making women uncomfortable and that it is wrong. Same thing goes for racism. Calling someone a racist for saying something racist isn't the same as accusing them of lynching Black people. Furthermore, not lynching Black people isn't a proper defense against being called racist if you are saying racist things.

What makes a good person is relative since moral standards vary by person and by culture, so saying most people are good is entirely dependent on your definition of good. Still, being a good person doesn't exclude you from being bigoted. Going back to our earlier statements, a lot of bigotry is subconscious and learned from one's surrounding culture. For instance, in my opinion, being raised in a racist environment and taking on those racist opinions doesn't make you a bad person per se. Learning that those opinions are racist and then defending them does.

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Wha? Thanks to me?

I'm not saying racism is right. I never said racism is right. I said that people can think the way they want to think. Publicly, you can react as you like to those thoughts, but I discourage mob mentality.

So, basically, anyone who shows hatred from someone different from themselves (the definition of bigotry) can still be a good person? I suppose to some that is true.

Because the word "bigotry" is used for such minor things, the sting is taken out of that word. To say that the majority of people are "subconsciously bigoted" indicates that they hate someone not their skin color, not their religion, or doesn't think the same way they do. Subconsciously.

If someone is subconsciously discriminating, that makes a bit more sense. They might subconsciously profile, also makes a great deal of sense. I doubt everyone around you regularly forms lynch mobs or posses to go round up and beat the nearest minority.

This post has been edited by chevleclair on 14th May 2015 12:25

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"So, are you a fan of the Fett?"

"Nah, I'm more of a Star Wars guy."

Quote (ElPanachino @ 14th May 2015 07:33)

Lastly, you mentioned that people who speak against sexist comments of the male gaze want those things to be treated the same as rape. No. They don't. Rape is a crime punishable with prison time. Nobody is saying men who cat call should be put in prison. They're saying they should stop because it's harassment. They're saying that men should acknowledge that when they do such things, they are making women uncomfortable and that it is wrong. Same thing goes for racism. Calling someone a racist for saying something racist isn't the same as accusing them of lynching Black people. Furthermore, not lynching Black people isn't a proper defense against being called racist if you are saying racist things.

There are certainly levels of prejudice, which is the point I've been trying to make. I agree with chevleclair that most people are decent, but culture and propaganda can influence their actions. Most people don't show high levels of racism, and often oppose racism when they're face to face with it. But because of our culture, we're all at least partially guilty of being racist for one simple reason: we live in a country that disproportionally imprisons black people as opposed to white people. Now, why would the place we live implicate us? Another simple reason: we ignore it, and none of us do enough to try and stop it. We watch news that doesn't cover it enough, and we move on once those same news programs call the Baltimore protesters thugs. We all should be in the streets, we all should be organizing, and we shouldn't stop until there is meaningful reform.

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Praise Be To Helix!