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Allen Hunter and I had started a discussion in the "Final Fantasy VI Anime" thread about anime in general.

To recap:

Quote (Allen Hunter)

As much as I hate anime and everything it stands for, I gotta admit that video was a fun watch.

Quote (Insegredious)

Quote (Allen Hunter @ 5th December 2009 21:42)

I hate anime and everything it stands for

At the risk of going off-topic, may I ask why out of curiosity?

Quote (Allen Hunter)

Sure thing.

• Art style is ridiculous because it violates the laws pf physics, and is a major spit in the face of accurate human anatomy. (eg: jaws that do not move while a character opens their mouth even if wide, eyes the size of a baseball, triangle-shaped noses, etc.) There are some exceptions on some Anime shows that do it a little more realistic, such as Ghost in the Shell.
  
• Animation budget is laughable compared to the smoother frames of the American cartoons. Some films like Lady Kiki's Delivery Service are exceptions.
  
• Rehashes after rehashes of the same damn elements. (eg: card games, humans fighting inside giant robots, effeminate males, etc.)
  
• Humor style is difficult to even comprehend as "funny" unless the human IQ level is in the negatives. In fact, I'm just going to say that SpongeBob Squarepants is much funnier than the "comedic" Anime shows, such as Bobbobobobobobobobobobobobobo (ok, this is getting annoying). And I don't like SpongeBob at all!
  
• I have a problem with fanatical people (especially the Wapanese) who are not of Asian or Japanese descent, yet try to act like they're "Japanese." (eg: using Japanese words/symbols in place of their native language, using the term "kawaii" to describe something attractive to the eye, cosplaying after their favorite Anime character, etc.)
  
• Most men are designed to be feminine-like, which is sickening. I'm not saying they all have to be "macho," but atleast quit it with the effeminate crap.
  
• I don't support the Emo/Goth fashions (which is something that most modern Anime cartoon shows are filled with nowadays).
  

Bear in mind, I do respect Japanese cultures, but I do not support Anime.

There are some old shows I grew up loving as a child, but they are plenty decades old anyway. I mean, it's fun to watch if you're nostalgic or you're a little kid, but seeing adolescents and older adults still retard their progress in life with this drug is just a sad thing.

Even though my favorite Anime cartoon shows (again, that I grew up with as a kid) also have crappy art styles, they're still many miles better (in my humble opinion) than shitshows such as Bleach, Naruto, Code Geass, Death Note, and so on.

On top of that, I'd rather watch American cartoons. And you gotta love the epic awesomeness of warriors and demons and wizards on NES and SNES cover arts. The best part? They actually ARE more accurate with the human anatomy.

Hell, even Yoshitaka Amano's illustration artwork for Final Fantasy 1 & 2 are a thousand times more epic than Tetsuya "LGBT" Nomura's crap.

I still gaze at an old issue of Nintendo Power that I still own and I still smile everytime I see the pictures of the Light Warriors from Final Fantasy 1, how they looked professional, looked more realistic, and none of that cute crap that we see with Final Fantasy nowadays.

http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff1/art/ffgroup.jpg
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff1/art/garland.jpg
http://countzeroor.files.wordpress.com/200...0_10-page-1.jpg

Why couldn't Square have kept that kind of art style with every other Final Fantasy game since FFVII?

PS: Sorry to sound militant or aggressive, but those are just my views.

Quote (Insegredious)

While I do respect your views, I would like to make several counterpoints.

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ridiculous because it violates the laws of physics

Trademark of cartoons in general, and part of their appeal. I dare you to find one cartoon, anime or otherwise, that follows the laws of physics to a T. (Hammerspace, anyone?)

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a major spit in the face of accurate human anatomy

King Of The Hill is the only cartoon I've ever seen that really attempts to provide characters with exact human anatomies. Judging and choosing cartoons based how accurately they depict the human anatomy will limit one's selection to...well, King Of The Hill, and not much else. The silly ways characters are drawn is another part of the appeal of cartoons. I certainly wouldn't call it a "major spit", seeing as how more American cartoons have characters whose bodies are medical anomalies. The fact that Cosmo & Wanda of The Fairly Oddparents have giant heads and tiny bodies, Stan from American Dad's freakishly large chin, Bugs Bunny being a walking, talking rabbit, Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy from SpongeBob not only being as small as the other characters (who have been frequently shown to be the size of the average fish) but being able to breathe underwater, the list goes on and on. Have you ever seen Phineas & Ferb? Phineas's head is a triangle. There's a picture somewhere of what Homer Simpson would look like if he were real, and it's utterly hideous.

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Animation budget is laughable compared to the smoother frames of the American cartoons.

I could tie this into the whole graphics v. gameplay debate regarding video games, but I'd rather not.

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Humor style is difficult to even comprehend as "funny" unless the human IQ level is in the negatives.

I think that's a little harsh. Some of the humor - let's take Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo - can be compared to things such as Monty Python, in that the humor comes from the fact that absolutely nothing makes sense. I happen to think Bobobo is hilarious. At the end of the day, though, it's to each his or her own.

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Most men are designed to be feminine-like, which is sickening.

I wouldn't say "most". I also have a bit of the problem with the "sickening" part, as it implies to me that you don't acknowledge the existence of effeminate males. But for everyone's sake, I shall refrain from making accusations.
Also, fanservice. If anything, the aforementioned "effeminate crap" is a way to get the attention of the female viewers who normally wouldn't give the show a second glance. That said, I'm surprised that you mentioned the effeminate male characters, but didn't mention the fact that the vast majority of female anime characters have breast sizes that range anywhere from "large" to "dear lord how in heaven's name are you standing upright".

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seeing adolescents and older adults still retard their progress in life with this drug is just a sad thing.

Again, I think that's harsh. And really, couldn't the same thing be said about lots of popular obsessions - pop culture, video games, reality TV, etc? To each his or her own; I feel that while one is free to judge a product or service, one is significantly less free to judge those who enjoy said product or service.

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they're still many miles better (in my humble opinion) than shitshows such as Bleach, Naruto, Code Geass, Death Note, and so on.

Bleach and Naruto I'll give you. Naruto is...eh. I've seen a handful of episodes of Bleach, and I can safely say that I have no idea what is going on in that show. Bad guys trying to do some not-very-well-explained evil thing, good guys who can float in midair and...stuff, I dunno.
I've never seen Code Geass, and I know absolutely nothing about it.
But I have to disagree with you on Death Note. The reason Death Note is so great and unique is because it's a psychological thriller, not your typical "OMFG GIANT MONSTERS SUPERPOWERS STUFF BLOWING UP" anime.

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I'd rather watch American cartoons.

Great. As stated several times, to each his or her own.


This is veering dangerously off-topic, and I would like to continue this discussion in its own thread.

...And here we are.

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EAT A BAG
LEMON-DY
HEAD SAUCE
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- brentalfloss

I agree with Allen Hunter, most mainstream anime I've seen is unwatchable and veering away from mainstream just leads to an exacerbation of the problems he laid out. I really enjoy Ghost in the Shell and Princess Mononoke however, so I'm only basing this point of view on my general experience, I'm sure there are more out there I would enjoy.

It's fair to say that anime is generally poorer than cartoons and western animated films for all the reasons laid out by Allen Hunter. I mean, c'mon, on humour alone it wins in all other categories. Although, like you say Insegredious, maybe it is just different tastes.

Quote (Insegredious)

Quote (Allen Hunter)

Most men are designed to be feminine-like, which is sickening.

I wouldn't say "most". I also have a bit of the problem with the "sickening" part, as it implies to me that you don't acknowledge the existence of effeminate males. But for everyone's sake, I shall refrain from making accusations.

I'd say the characters are more emasculated than effeminate. They're not trying to look or act like women, they're just being really bad men. It's like the writer or director has removed many of the traits that makes a man, like their balls, if you pardon the vulgarity. If you're familiar with Yahtzee's videos, in one he spells out how we all live in an 'emasculated conformist nightmare world', a phrase I'm really fond of. It's probably getting more emasculated in direct proportion to the amount of these characters in anime and games. Hey, maybe that's why we're seeing a recent counter-trend of super-masculine characters like in Gears of War. The point is that I don't like watching emasculated men either; I don't like the way they think and I don't like the way they do things.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Hrm, sure is militant in here.

Anyway, as far as the humor goes, that is to be expected, as most humor in cartoons (or any media for that matter) is reliant upon exposure to the source material. There will be cultural differences in what is considered funny. To make an extreme example, it may be considered funny to crack a joke about all muslims being terrorists in the US, while in Iran or Iraq it may be funny to crack a joke about stoning someone to death.

Now, granted neither one of those was funny, but it depends on the context of the statement and the cultural awareness of the audience. There isn't much that translates to comedy universally, except slapstick, which appeals to those with higher (not lower ) IQ's, as has been proven (debated at the very least).

As far as general animation style and substance, once again you will see a product of the culture. In japan there has been a recent surge of androgynous people and styles. It's very common to see a group of what could be males or females walking down the street. Now, why this is taking place is beyond me, as I don't live there, but it should be expected that cartoons will have characters that will be easy to relate to. Just as the lovable chubby guy is the norm here in America, the androgynous lead is the norm in Japan.

Fact of the matter is, you can't really judge a cartoon by any realistic scientific standards (I.E. physics, anatomy) because they exist in a world that isn't conforming to those rules. Cartoons are satire, and should be expected to have a healthy bit of nonsensical elements, and if you can't appreciate that, well, remove the stick from your rectum and laugh or change the channel.

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This is a webcomic and gaming blog where I rant about nonsense. Enjoy.

I was a soldier, now I just play one in video games.

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Bear in mind, I do respect Japanese cultures, but

"Not to be culturally insensitive but... (queue closed-minded flamebait)."

Respecting cultures takes effort.

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"Cavefish is delicious, but only if cooked."

As a rather effeminate male myself, I find it hilarious that there is a problem with characters being depicted as such. Must everyone with male genitalia have bulging muscles, thick necks and act like the second coming of Rambo? Were that the case, I think I'd find television much less appealing than I already do.

To each their own, I suppose, but one thing you must give anime over American cartoons is the depth of character and of plot they allow. Many of the good shows, because not all are about little ninja boys fighting giant monsters for no reason) will touch on philosophic questions and offer some kind of character development that you just don't get in American cartoons.

It's been touched on before but the idea that cartoons much obey the laws of physics or anatomy is absurd. It's a cartoon, meant to be imaginative and display things in a fashion that otherwise could not be done through any other medium. So, sure, maybe their hair might defy gravity; but how is that any different from Wile E. Coyote's anvil staying in place in mid-air for several seconds before falling on his head?

Or, let's look at Sponge Bob, where fire can exist underwater and squirrels can wear space-suits. I also submit that the animation in an anime like, say, Cowboy Bebop is flawless and superior to many American contemporaries.

The story-telling style, humor and character depiction might not be to your specific tastes, and that's fine, but anime in and of itself is an art form as much as it is a means of entertainment.



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Okay, but there was a goat!

It's kinda cute how someone just asked me for reasons why I don't like it, and now I'm getting attacked by multiple people. This thread makes me shiver with disgust, but eh, I'll make it through this.

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"Not to be culturally insensitive but... (queue closed-minded flamebait)."
Respecting cultures takes effort.

So if I disrespect Anime, I'm also disrespecting the Japanese?

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Must everyone with male genitalia have bulging muscles, thick necks and act like the second coming of Rambo?

Read what I said previously:

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Most men are designed to be feminine-like, which is sickening. I'm not saying they all have to be "macho."

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Trademark of cartoons in general, and part of their appeal. I dare you to find one cartoon, anime or otherwise, that follows the laws of physics to a T. (Hammerspace, anyone?)

Well, of course those cartoons (like Bugs Bunny or Tom & Jerry) have fantasy elements. However, unlike Anime, those cartoons use state-of-the-art technology and are directed towards a much younger crowd, which is fair.

Quote

I wouldn't say "most". I also have a bit of the problem with the "sickening" part, as it implies to me that you don't acknowledge the existence of effeminate males. But for everyone's sake, I shall refrain from making accusations.

Uh, yes I do. Trust me, I do go out and see the world for myself while you're watching your FMA DVDs at home.

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King Of The Hill is the only cartoon I've ever seen that really attempts to provide characters with exact human anatomies. Judging and choosing cartoons based how accurately they depict the human anatomy will limit one's selection to...well, King Of The Hill, and not much else. The silly ways characters are drawn is another part of the appeal of cartoons. I certainly wouldn't call it a "major spit", seeing as how more American cartoons have characters whose bodies are medical anomalies. The fact that Cosmo & Wanda of The Fairly Oddparents have giant heads and tiny bodies, Stan from American Dad's freakishly large chin, Bugs Bunny being a walking, talking rabbit, Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy from SpongeBob not only being as small as the other characters (who have been frequently shown to be the size of the average fish) but being able to breathe underwater, the list goes on and on. Have you ever seen Phineas & Ferb? Phineas's head is a triangle. There's a picture somewhere of what Homer Simpson would look like if he were real, and it's utterly hideous.

While I agree that they don't follow anatomy either, they DO go for the right audiences: the comedy audience and the really young kids audience. And their animation styles are smoother and don't always include stillframes, unlike with Anime's case. Those cartoons are just meant to be silly for what they are, nothing to be taken seriously. Anime TRIES to take it all seriously.

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I could tie this into the whole graphics v. gameplay debate regarding video games, but I'd rather not.

No, there's a huge difference between gameplay and animation. The fact is most Anime cartoon shows have a lesser budget than the American ones, which is why most of the cartoons have those godawful lazy frames. South Park is excusable because it's meant to be taken to a humorous content, unlike Anime, most Anime tries to be really "serious" with the crappy art style they have, ultimately becoming a satire of itself.

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I think that's a little harsh. Some of the humor - let's take Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo - can be compared to things such as Monty Python, in that the humor comes from the fact that absolutely nothing makes sense. I happen to think Bobobo is hilarious. At the end of the day, though, it's to each his or her own.

Yo, you asked me reasons why I don't like Anime, and I offered them. Now this thread was started and I'm getting two other people arguing against me.

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Also, fanservice. If anything, the aforementioned "effeminate crap" is a way to get the attention of the female viewers who normally wouldn't give the show a second glance.

Yeah, they're morons at best. I guess women enjoy looking at pseudo-transsexual men, don't they..

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That said, I'm surprised that you mentioned the effeminate male characters, but didn't mention the fact that the vast majority of female anime characters have breast sizes that range anywhere from "large" to "dear lord how in heaven's name are you standing upright".

WHOOPS! How could I, an American man, forget about complaining about big tits!

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Again, I think that's harsh. And really, couldn't the same thing be said about lots of popular obsessions - pop culture, video games, reality TV, etc? To each his or her own; I feel that while one is free to judge a product or service, one is significantly less free to judge those who enjoy said product or service.

Yeah, but we're talking about Anime. And reality TV is ridiculous, anyway. I'm ashamed you even brought that one up.

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Bleach and Naruto I'll give you. Naruto is...eh. I've seen a handful of episodes of Bleach, and I can safely say that I have no idea what is going on in that show. Bad guys trying to do some not-very-well-explained evil thing, good guys who can float in midair and...stuff, I dunno.

Well, atleast we can agree on that.

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Great. As stated several times, to each his or her own.

Uhh, right. Because I was even expecting you to say it's "harsh" approximately three times at the time I was making that post, right? Jesus H. Christ.

This post has been edited by Allen Hunter on 9th December 2009 08:16

Whoa there hoss, tone down the militant attitude a bit shall we?

How about instead of veiled insults you decide to contribute to the debate with an adult opinion? No one started flaming or attacking you, as much as it pains you to admit. All we did was debate. You know, point, counterpoint, et al.

Try to be a little less obnoxious and childish in your response, because while we like to be nice around here, we can get nasty.

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This is a webcomic and gaming blog where I rant about nonsense. Enjoy.

I was a soldier, now I just play one in video games.

Quote (Nytecrawla @ 8th December 2009 14:52)

Try to be a little less obnoxious and childish in your response, because while we like to be nice around here, we can get nasty.

Please don't speak as if you're speaking for the forums. I don't want to see you or anyone else you're speaking for "get nasty" on this thread, and that definitely includes Allen Hunter, though you're certainly not considering him as part of this "we."

That being said, Allen, I do think you're getting pretty defensive about this. I'm not sure anyone here is being nearly as rude to you as you think, and this is coming from someone who has no horse in the race - I couldn't really care less about anime one way or another.

For everyone else, if you want to avoid this going any further, you could always decline to respond.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

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How about instead of veiled insults you decide to contribute to the debate with an adult opinion? No one started flaming or attacking you, as much as it pains you to admit. All we did was debate. You know, point, counterpoint, et al.

I apologize, but that's just my way of discussing things.

I don't flame people because it's immature, and I was making intelligent comebacks to the OP. In no way was I intending to be rude, just to tease people. Relax!

I think you should/should've read 100% of my previous post because I was making a point. Also, I was being sarcastic on some of my "insults".

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Try to be a little less obnoxious and childish in your response, because while we like to be nice around here, we can get nasty.

Sweet! Can I have mod powers too?

PS: I must be the most intelligent man who argues like a "child" then. Thanks dude!

I dislike anime for its style especially the big eyes on many of the characters and the animation of their mouth. I love the Japanese culture for the many other treasures they have, but anime is something I, for one, dislike. I concur with Allen Hunter on his entry, and failed to perceive this as "militant." To me, Allen is being brutally honest in his posts, rather than militant.

Oh and I despise anime fanboys.

Quote (Allen Hunter @ 8th December 2009 16:13)

PS: I must be the most intelligent man who argues like a "child" then. Thanks dude!

No, you're not.

You aren't getting attacked, not by a long shot. See, if I were to attack you, I'd point out the sheer stupidity of going into an irc chat and asking for weed. What we are doing, however, is responding to the reasons you listed for your distaste in anime and pointing out the glaring hypocrisy in the logic that you use. Mind, as stated, you're allowed to have your preferences, and I respect that, but let's not turn this into a douche-off. Telling other posters to "grow some balls" does not help your case.

You did not say that had to be macho, no, but you also stated that a male who was more effeminate was sickening, which is absurd and generally leaves little other alternative.

I don't know where you get your facts from, but you're absolutely wrong about the budgets that go into anime, as they are an enormous market and an immense part of their culture. For example, the production staff of Gundam 00 had well over 300 members, spanned across two studios and was one of the first HD cartoons in the world.


Or should I also point out that the anime film, Akira, is one of the top 100 grossing movies of all time, the single most iconic japanese film to date and the source of many conventions and themes found not just in other animes that followed, but in American cartoons and pop culture as well? To the point that even Kylie Monogue has referenced the film in several music videos. Perhaps the animation style isn't to your liking, or the art is not something that works for you, but it is by no stretch of the imagination bad.

This post has been edited by Dragon_Fire on 8th December 2009 20:35

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Okay, but there was a goat!

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No, you're not.

You're taking my sarcastic remark way beyond all seriousness.

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I'd point out the sheer stupidity of going into an irc chat and asking for weed.

I know. It's stupid, isn't it? Especially to those people who took that random statement of mine as a "serious" thing. I'm sorry that no random/humor lines are allowed in your chat.

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What we are doing, however, is responding to the reasons you listed for your distaste in anime and pointing out the glaring hypocrisy in the logic that you use.

So I'm a hypocrite? Excuse me, but I'm being open-minded and honest about my reasons why I don't like Anime. You don't agree, that is fine. I'm not changing your opinions, just pointing out flaws of Anime.

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Telling other posters to "grow some balls" does not help your case.

I was being sarcastic, like I said previously. Of course, I was being asked to this debate and I'm considered "harsh" for the way I put my words. I'm sorry.

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don't know where you get your facts from, but you're absolutely wrong about the budgets that go into anime, as they are an enormous market and an immense part of their culture. For example, the production staff of Gundam 00 had well over 300 members, spanned across two studios and was one of the first HD cartoons in the world.

You say my logic is full of "hypocrisy," yet you're calling me wrong about the budget on Anime. Dude, I've seen more than enough Anime shows to make my judgement.

I even pardoned some Anime series (like Paranoid Agent or Ghost in the Shell) for atleast being the better parts of Japanese animation.

The problem with animation in most Animes is how the animators heavily use stillframes, and if their budget was so great, why the lazy lip-moves-but-not-chin sections? American cartoons animate their speeches more accordingly, unlike Anime.

Anime is even worse in audio translations because it's usually just 1-3 kinds of open mouth designs while a character talks.

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You did not say that had to be macho, no, but you also stated that a male who was more effeminate was sickening, which is absurd and generally leaves little other alternative.

To me, it is sickening. However, I never said that it should be plugged off the mainstream, I just personally don't like it. I said that men don't always have to be macho because that's what I expected you Anime fanatics would say in the dispute.

I respect everyone's opinions. Don't get me wrong.

Quote (Shiva Indis @ 8th December 2009 16:22)

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Bear in mind, I do respect Japanese cultures, but

"Not to be culturally insensitive but... (queue closed-minded flamebait)."

Respecting cultures takes effort.

That's an attack. In one swoop he's made out to be a closed-minded bigot. I'm pretty sure anyone would be a bit defensive if someone wrote that to us. Seriously, since when did it become standard practice to make personal judgements of people on such a stupid subject?

Quote (Dragon_Fire)

As a rather effeminate male myself, I find it hilarious that there is a problem with characters being depicted as such. Must everyone with male genitalia have bulging muscles, thick necks and act like the second coming of Rambo? Were that the case, I think I'd find television much less appealing than I already do.

And here we've got another pretty annoying line of argument where my point of view is 'hilarious'. It's not exactly helping the discussion much, it's just provocative.

To answer the question, I am entertained or intrigued by male characters who act like men, think like men, and have male problems; so, yes, Rambo is good. But being masculine doesn't mean unsophisticated. King Lear and The Crucible would not be the same if Lear and John Proctor were effeminate, tall, skinny, perfectly-featured men who were clearly very concerned about the way they look. Batou in Ghost in the Shell wouldn't be half the character he is without his masculine presence on screen. Do you see now? It's not hilarious to have a problem with effeminate men, it directly affects the story and perception of the characters.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

AH, let's take your initial seven points and present them neutrally.

• I don't like the art style.
• I don't like the animation techniques.
• The thematic elements are repetitive.
• The humor isn't funny to me.
• I find the hardcore fans to be creepy.
• I don't like the depiction of male characters.
• I don't like the fashion styles featured.

Nothing wrong with any of those. But use of phrases like "major spit in the face of xxxx", "xxxx is laughable", "effeminate crap"... that's baiting people. There's not really even anything to argue about here, because there's nothing inherently superior about anyone's preferences on a topic like this one. (If you have a source on U.S. animation budgets being higher, I would like to see it. Not that more money/different techniques = better, of course.)

We could actually debate whether or not animation is a suitable medium for adult content or something like that, though.

This post has been edited by Shiva Indis on 8th December 2009 22:16

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"Cavefish is delicious, but only if cooked."

Quote (Rangers51)

if you want to avoid this going any further, you could always decline to respond.

Well-put.
While I am trying to be as mature and civil as possible in my responses, I still wish to apologize to Allen Hunter and everyone else. I did not and still do not wish for this to turn into a flame war. While the debate is currently far from flame war status, I won't hesitate to close the topic if things get out of hand.

Allen Hunter - might I suggest (and I'm, in all honesty, trying to be supportive to the debate, not a jerk) using a sarcasm tag?
-> " /s "
(When used: "Cars 2? Yeah, THAT'S gonna be a good movie. /s")
Sarcasm has never carried well into text-based mediums, such as the Internets.

Quote (Yours truly)

I'm surprised that you mentioned the effeminate male characters, but didn't mention the fact that the vast majority of female anime characters have breast sizes that range anywhere from "large" to "dear lord how in heaven's name are you standing upright".

In retrospect, no, that's not very surprising. Similarly, the typical female critic of anime may go "How does that woman not have back problems? It would be awful to have breasts that big..." while simultaneously going "Okay, I hate anime, but So-And-So is SO SEXY". *obligatory Twilight mention*
*topic moving away from Twilight*
I simply feel that, to avoid double-standards, things like fanservice should either be praised or criticized universally.

Quote (Allen Hunter)

I do go out and see the world for myself while you're watching your FMA DVDs at home.

Quote (Allen Hunter)

Oh, grow some balls, man!

A less-wise Insegredious would take offense to those. I understand that you were being sarcastic, and that that's simply your way of debating, but it comes across as rather rude. Hence,

Quote (Allen Hunter)

getting attacked by multiple people

Quote (Me again)

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Humor style is difficult to even comprehend as "funny" unless the human IQ level is in the negatives.

I think that's a little harsh.

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seeing adolescents and older adults still retard their progress in life with this drug is just a sad thing.

Again, I think that's harsh. And really, couldn't the same thing be said about lots of popular obsessions - pop culture, video games, reality TV, etc? To each his or her own; I feel that while one is free to judge a product or service, one is significantly less free to judge those who enjoy said product or service.

I believe I should have made that point clearer.

Quote (Allen Hunter)

reality TV is ridiculous

Heavens, do I agree. I'm not going to even try to describe how stupid I think reality TV shows are. The point I was trying to make, though, is that while I believe that one has every right to judge something (in this case, anime), it's not fair to make sweeping generalizations of its fanbase. I have no problem with you hating anime, but I don't think it's fair to say that those who find its humor funny have IQ's in the negatives, or that adolescents and adults who like anime are retarding their progress in life. That's all.

Quote (Allen Hunter)

Those cartoons are just meant to be silly for what they are, nothing to be taken seriously. Anime TRIES to take it all seriously.

I see your point, and agree somewhat. Some anime series tend to take it fairly over the top. (For instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaoy1QKxGQs)

But that's just another part of the appeal to some people, better known as bathos or narm. It's also the reason things like Yu-Gi-Oh!: The Abridged Series exist.

This post has been edited by Insegredious on 8th December 2009 22:47

--------------------

EGG TOSS
YOU CARRY
EAT A BAG
LEMON-DY
HEAD SAUCE
JIM CARREY
IN A BEAR
HEAVEN PEE
DAFFY-ROTH
- brentalfloss

Quote (Allen Hunter)

As much as I hate anime and everything it stands for...

Let's start with how wrong this statement is - you're basically saying that most if not all Japanese animation stands for exactly the same things and portrays the same themes.
This would be an obvious load of bull, for obvious reasons.

This is what actually irritated me about your posts: you judged most anime as one whole thing, while there's a great number of series' and each deserves to be judged by its own merits and flaws.

I recently participated in a discussion on a different message board, where a person stated that anime was the only good animation in the world and that everything else was ugly. This is another load of bull, but its the same kind of bull.

These kinds of statements are wrong in their core, because they grossly overgeneralize, and I'm seriously infuriated whenever anyone makes any extreme stamtements in "western animation vs. Japanese animation " debates, but that's probably because I'm a fan admirer of both.

Quote (Allen Hunter)

I respect everyone's opinions. Don't get me wrong.

You don't say... what about these:

Quote (Allen Hunter)

Humor style is difficult to even comprehend as "funny" unless the human IQ level is in the negatives.

...shitshows such as...

Oh, grow some balls, man!

Yeah, they're morons at best.

No matter how valid your points may be, how deep your message is, if you use such aggressive and condescending remarks, then they will fall on deaf ears.

Quote (Allen Hunter)

So if I disrespect Anime, I'm also disrespecting the Japanese?

Funnily enough - yes, you pretty much are. It's like coming up to any other society and saying "You know what? Your modern culture sucks!", especially since they draw a lot from their mythology and tradition.

Also, one thing to people writing about Bobo-bo bo-bobo (or whatever that title was) - the humor in it relies heavily on the viewer recognizing references to other shows that are at the core of most of the puns in the series. It's not strange to find it unfunny if you don't know two decades worth of shonen series.

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I have a problem with fanatical people (especially the Wapanese) who are not of Asian or Japanese descent, yet try to act like they're "Japanese." (eg: using Japanese words/symbols in place of their native language, using the term "kawaii" to describe something attractive to the eye, cosplaying after their favorite Anime character, etc.)

I don't support the Emo/Goth fashions (which is something that most modern Anime cartoon shows are filled with nowadays).

I find that most people that label themselves as "fans" are a bit disturbing, to say the least - hence I crossed out my "fan of animation" status earlier on. This should still not stand in the way of judging a work by its merits.

Quote (Allen Hunter)

*Stuff about animation budgets and jaws flapping*

Two things:
One - where do you get your information about animation budgets? Link? Title? Anything?
Two - you're basically complainging that the Japanese don't animate the movement of jaws. Seems more like a bad shark joke than a point.

You're also stating repeatedly, or at least you make it sound like that, that all western animation is for children, whereas all anime is for adolescents. I call bollocks on both accounts and urge you to clarify your statement.

I'm going to make a few statements here:
I believe Batman: The Animated Series is awesome. Even if you don't count Mark Hamills Joker.
I believe the same of Batman: The Brave and The Bold for comepletely different reasons and for the some of the same reasons.
I love Disney. Not all of their works love me back, but we can't have it all.
Among Disney's animated series I place Gargoyles on a special pedestal and I do so for numerous reasons: the action, the plots, the characters, Jeff Bennett and Keith David, the art style, the music, the Funny and the Awesome.
I love many more western shows.
Kino no Tabi is what I consider one of the best series stories ever. The art style is made adequate to that story and the music is wonderful.
I admire, by default, any and all characters played by Takehito Koyasu, and Norio Wakamoto, Fumihiko Tachiki, Kappei Yamaguchi and a few others are very talented actors.
Tower of Druaga is fun, I like Rozen Maiden, and Time of Eve is something I'll recommend to anyone who bothers with my opinion.

Finally, I wish this debate was about manga, because I'm much more into manga than anime and I'd have a lot more to tell.

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (sweetdude @ 8th December 2009 17:42)

To answer the question, I am entertained or intrigued by male characters who act like men, think like men, and have male problems; so, yes, Rambo is good. But being masculine doesn't mean unsophisticated. King Lear and The Crucible would not be the same if Lear and John Proctor were effeminate, tall, skinny, perfectly-featured men who were clearly very concerned about the way they look. Batou in Ghost in the Shell wouldn't be half the character he is without his masculine presence on screen. Do you see now? It's not hilarious to have a problem with effeminate men, it directly affects the story and perception of the characters.

And what, exactly, defines what is to be considered "manly"? What I find completely hilarious is this concept that these are lesser men for the simple fact that they do not fall into whatever preconceived or, perhaps more appropriate, archaic ideal of what a man ought to be.

As a general rule, I prefer to judge the appeal of characters based on their individual merits, rather than how "masculine" they might be. You don't have to like the characters, but let's not pretend that it isn't a prejudice, that likewise effects your view of the anime, similarly to how your view of a character's masculinity effects perception.

The fact is that these characters are generally not portrayed to be perfect, nor to be overly concerned with their appearance. In most animes, this hardly has no significance whatsoever, so for the viewer to do so is nothing more than letting a minor detail bias their view of the whole art-form.

And as for Allen Hunter, I won't touch on my personal distaste for your "sarcasm" or your basic lack of understanding. Instead, I'll simply say that you're well within your right to not be a fan of the anime genre.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Okay children, let's stop behaving like adults. I have to say sirs, that you have changed this from the respectable CoN to something comparable to the normal TV punditry.

Also, please stop writing novel-length posts. I have two exams to study for, and my brain hurts.

And finally, can't we at least get along? I listen everyday to talking points on C-SPAN, and shouting about those talking points on Fox News and MSNBC. I come to CoN expecting a break from that and intelligent discussion.

Anyways, I have always loved animation. Some of my favorite feature films of all time are the classic animated Disney pictures. Some of my favorite animated shorts are the Looney Tunes cartoons.

I would also consider Dr. Seuss's books, Super Mario Brothers, and the Pokemon video games to be animation or have an animated style. So, in other words, I have a deep respect for animation.

That is why I normally feel wary towards the type of animation you are arguing about. But I wouldn't necessarily say that it is bad. Often, I find Japanese animation to be peculiar, but nevertheless interesting and imaginative. I tend to think of it the way I think of modern music. Don't like it as much, but at least it is advancing the form.

Moderator Edit

I'm glad you finally got around to a point rather than simply telling people how to and how not to post. I can be called upon to do my job while you simply focus on your posts. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 8th December 2009 23:02

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Praise Be To Helix!

I like turtles.

Moderator Edit

Come on, man, this thread is just barely tolerable as it is. Time to wrap it up, please. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 8th December 2009 23:07

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And have you found your joy, in this near dead world of ours?

I'm poised to close the topic. The general consensus seems to be:

• Allen Hunter's reasons for disliking anime are his own, and are based off of personal preference
• No one finds anything wrong with the above statement
• Allen Hunter's style of debating can be perceived as rather rude

Does that sum everything up fairly well?

Unless anyone has anything new to add, expect this closed rather soon.

Edit

Sounds good to me. Closed.
Allen Hunter (or anyone else): PM me if there's anything you want to add.

Edit

Reopened so sweetdude could post.

This post has been edited by Insegredious on 9th December 2009 03:14

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EGG TOSS
YOU CARRY
EAT A BAG
LEMON-DY
HEAD SAUCE
JIM CARREY
IN A BEAR
HEAVEN PEE
DAFFY-ROTH
- brentalfloss

I was about to PM Insegredious, but it looks like sweetdude already did. All I gotta say is atleast some of the members here (like sweetdude) actually understood my honest POV of Anime.

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That's an attack. In one swoop he's made out to be a closed-minded bigot. I'm pretty sure anyone would be a bit defensive if someone wrote that to us. Seriously, since when did it become standard practice to make personal judgements of people on such a stupid subject?

Definitely well-put, sweetdude. That first post by Shiva Indis in this thread was a flamebait one instead of making a point. Certainly, anyone with a brain and some common sense knows better than to charge at people like that.

Insegredious is pretty much the only civil person from the Anime defenders who simply asked me why I didn't like Anime, yet here we are with other people butting in and making me out to be a "big bad troll" character. By the way, I apologize for that "Grow some balls!" remark (even if it was sarcasm), and I removed it from my post because atleast you are the only civil person in the pro-Anime side, and I am sorry, once again.

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Allen Hunter - might I suggest (and I'm, in all honesty, trying to be supportive to the debate, not a jerk) using a sarcasm tag?
-> " /s "
(When used: "Cars 2? Yeah, THAT'S gonna be a good movie. /s")
Sarcasm has never carried well into text-based mediums, such as the Internets.

Not to be harsh, but I believe sarcasm has to be "felt" by the reader, not through using tags. To me, sarcasm works better when some people are left confused by trying to define the meaning of a phrase, instead of being so obvious to mention there being one in your sarcasm posts.

I guess it was too soon for me to start dropping sarcasm, but that's just the kinda person I like to be just to warm up a sober conversation. Nothing in the rules of this site where it says sarcasm is wrong, right? Flaming and name-calling I do understand, but sarcasm & dry humor are what makes the world go round with amusement, especially in the internet communities.

Anyways...
I guess the majority of the people (with the exception of the OP) on Anime's side are mostly just showing their innermost crybaby attitudes by ganging all up on me. Seriously, four of these people are irate just because I was being honest about my dislike of Anime?

Is it that hard to accept someone's honesty who joins a Final Fantasy fansite that doesn't like Anime? I mean, I won't discourage any one of you from liking it, because as often mentioned already, each to his own, but nothing wrong with noting flaws of Anime.

And yes, I know there are some flaws in American cartoons too. This isn't a Liberals vs Conservatives debate thread, but I don't mind heated arguments anyway.

The problem is all the mad hype about Anime being considered a "top quality" form of art, especially when there's little support for oldschool shows like He-Man, Captain Planet, Thundercats, Looney Tunes, etc.

Quote

And as for Allen Hunter, I won't touch on my personal distaste for your "sarcasm" or your basic lack of understanding.

Okay, but no need for the asshole attitude, man. You are in no position to judge my personality or my intelligence level when you clearly do not know me at all, to say that I have a "lack of understanding."

If what I previously mentioned in your chatroom was "not" sarcasm, then all late night show hosts who have made jokes/satires of George W. Bush (while he was the current president of the USA) should've been arrested for "political harassment."

I'd now like to direct this post over to SilverMaduin..

Quote

Funnily enough - yes, you pretty much are. It's like coming up to any other society and saying "You know what? Your modern culture sucks!", especially since they draw a lot from their mythology and tradition.

Yeah, that's like if you're not a Christian or a believer or any other organized religion, then you must "automatically" stop believing in god(s) just because it's either religious Theism or Atheism, no distinctions to break out of that limited mold.

So if I say I hate hip-hop, blues, jazz, BET network, and fried chicken, does that also mean that I am a racist towards African Americans?

I mean, hell, they gave us blues music, and their lyrical themes trace alot to the depression they've went through centuries past when they were seen as slaves and units and not human beings at all. I wouldn't hate a certain musical genre for its meaning or lyrics, but just the music playing style itself. There is a difference, and lyrics do not make a song, because music is all about the melody and pleasure to the ears, including both instruments and vocals.

Just because I dislike a certain thing about one's culture, it does not mean I also hate the people from that culture. And you thought only I was the one here being "militant!"

And just because I don't like Anime, SilverMaduin, that does not imply that I don't like the rest Japanese culture still. Your argument for that is downright fallacious, because you assume that I am a "racist" for not liking something that a certain culture are well-known for. If I say I hate beer, does that mean I hate Germans too?

Quote

Two things:
One - where do you get your information about animation budgets? Link? Title? Anything?
Two - you're basically complainging that the Japanese don't animate the movement of jaws. Seems more like a bad shark joke than a point.

1. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEWWw-NSe4g (Gets to the point on the difference between two types of animations at 3:36 and is outspoken throughout the rest of the video)
2. Not really, that is a common syndrome with Anime shows. Alot of keyframes and still-images within a character in most of the Animes.

Quote

Also, one thing to people writing about Bobo-bo bo-bobo (or whatever that title was) - the humor in it relies heavily on the viewer recognizing references to other shows that are at the core of most of the puns in the series. It's not strange to find it unfunny if you don't know two decades worth of shonen series.

I have to be a hark0re to know why it's even "funny," then..

Now that I'm done with you (for now), time for a lighter side of my post...

Quote

I like turtles.

That was the best post you ever made in this thread. And it was total injustice for putting a Mod Edit.

This post has been edited by Allen Hunter on 9th December 2009 08:20

I'm quite enjoying chatting about characters, but I don't mind if you want to close it permanently.

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 8th December 2009 23:38)

And what, exactly, defines what is to be considered "manly"? What I find completely hilarious is this concept that these are lesser men for the simple fact that they do not fall into whatever preconceived or, perhaps more appropriate, archaic ideal of what a man ought to be.

There's a distinction. I'm not saying that masculine men are superior in all things, and the effeminate are inferior, I'm saying that I am more entertained and intrigued by masculine male characters. Since we seem to be agreed that effeminate characters are widespread in anime, you can surely see why I don't find anime, generally, as good as certain cartoons or animated film. The characters in South Park, for example, I find immediately easy to watch. Or, as an even lighter example, Woody's problems in Toy Story.

As for your question, 'what is considered manly', this is my favourite topic of drama. It's just like the question of 'what is a man'. Pretty much every Arthur Miller play is about relationships from a predominately male perspective, and I go out of my way to watch one when they are available. South Park is much simpler and more or less just jokes bunched together, but still the men go through their conflicts as human beings, and it's much better for it. When the men are effeminate it's like watching a completely different gender. I suppose it's good to watch as a fantasy, as we've already established, but still I prefer it to be more human.

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 8th December 2009 23:38)

The fact is that these characters are generally not portrayed to be perfect, nor to be overly concerned with their appearance. In most animes, this hardly has no significance whatsoever, so for the viewer to do so is nothing more than letting a minor detail bias their view of the whole art-form.

Okay that I don't agree with. in order to look like most of the anime characters do, they must have to spend some serious time looking in the mirror and applying copious amounts of face cream. I wish I could blank this fact out, but it's so glaringly obvious that I can't let it rest. If you say that it's just the art style, then that's falling into the 'everybody looks perfect' trap and completely ostracises me as a viewer. This doesn't just apply to anime; my friend and I joked that in FFXII ugly people turned into Bangaas, fat people turned into Seeqs, and weak people turned into Moogles, The only humans left are the perfect ones you see on the street.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (Allen Hunter @ 9th December 2009 02:45)

Certainly, anyone with a brain and some common sense knows better than to charge at people like that.

You do realize that rather than actually not rising to what you considered flamebait, you responded exactly in kind? How can you say you're not looking for a fight when you eagerly contribute?

I, personally, would like to see this topic closed again, and it doesn't seem to be veering all that close to the direction of anyone at all keeping it civil on either side. That's all I really have to say about anything here, since as I've already said, anime doesn't even really enter into my consciousness, so I have no opinion to which I agree or disagree on the actual topic.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (sweetdude @ 9th December 2009 05:43)

As for your question, 'what is considered manly', this is my favourite topic of drama. It's just like the question of 'what is a man'. Pretty much every Arthur Miller play is about relationships from a predominately male perspective, and I go out of my way to watch one when they are available. South Park is much simpler and more or less just jokes bunched together, but still the men go through their conflicts as human beings, and it's much better for it. When the men are effeminate it's like watching a completely different gender. I suppose it's good to watch as a fantasy, as we've already established, but still I prefer it to be more human.

Well, that question is perhaps the point of all stories: what is man? Earlier you brought up Rambo. I love how people think that is such a masculine film. But if you know the ending what happens? He breaks down and starts sobbing all over the place. That showed us that even the most "macho" character is human.

The question is, can anime show the humanity in the same fashion as a live-action movie? Of course. In fact, there are certain fantasy stories that do a better job of displaying the human condition than other realistic stories. It depends on the sensibilites of the creator as to what the human condition is. I personally do not believe in such a distinction as being masculine or feminine. Don't we all have traits of both?

Quote (sweetdude)

Okay that I don't agree with. in order to look like most of the anime characters do, they must have to spend some serious time looking in the mirror and applying copious amounts of face cream. I wish I could blank this fact out, but it's so glaringly obvious that I can't let it rest. If you say that it's just the art style, then that's falling into the 'everybody looks perfect' trap and completely ostracises me as a viewer. This doesn't just apply to anime; my friend and I joked that in FFXII ugly people turned into Bangaas, fat people turned into Seeqs, and weak people turned into Moogles, The only humans left are the perfect ones you see on the street.

Perhaps that is fantasy or animation's goal, to show a more perfect humanity, but I wouldn't think so. I think it is easier for them to create archetype characters to focus on certain human traits. Though Moogles and Seeqs are not human, they do represent human traits.

But I agree that a problem in animation is the perfection of humans, which should not be the intent of storytelling, it is rather to reveal the good and bad aspects of humans.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th December 2009 22:17)

Well, that question is perhaps the point of all stories: what is man? Earlier you brought up Rambo. I love how people think that is such a masculine film. But if you know the ending what happens? He breaks down and starts sobbing all over the place. That showed us that even the most "macho" character is human.

Rambo is a masculine character and it is a masculine film. Going back to my other examples, Lear and John Proctor both cry at the end of their dramas too. They're still masculine. What's your point?

Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th December 2009 22:17)

It depends on the sensibilites of the creator as to what the human condition is. I personally do not believe in such a distinction as being masculine or feminine. Don't we all have traits of both?

Logically speaking, if a something is both masculine and feminine then it stops being either, right? We can't have traits of both or the two sides wouldn't exist. I really don't believe that you see no distinction between masculine and feminine; convince me otherwise if you like!

Redirecting back to anime, a lot of male characters may look feminine but they don't usually take any other feminine traits. What happens is that they act genderless. That is what I have a problem with.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 9th December 2009 22:17)

But I agree that a problem in animation is the perfection of humans, which should not be the intent of storytelling, it is rather to reveal the good and bad aspects of humans.

Hey there are more intentions of storytelling than that. Just telling a good plot is enough, or just having a good idea for how a scene should be depicted, or expanding on an idea like space travel. Anime might do this really well, especially Ghost in the Shell, but I prefer the strangely clever human insight of things like South Park.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

This seems like a very stupid thing to be arguing over, but that's what happens in forums...

I also dislike how anime portrays the majority of men as effeminate. It comes across with some sort of homosexual undertones automatically. Men who look more like women than they do like men. Kinda gay.

And that's not an anti-gay rant. I have no problem with gay people. I just dislike the fact that it dominates the genre so heavily. It seems like all of entertainment is getting a little more gay. I don't know if the industry is finally catching up after having gay life stuff kept in the closet for so many years, or if it's oversaturating everything. I wouldn't know. It's just more present today than it was even a few years ago.

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Sabin: Kefka! Wait!
Kefka: Wait he says! Do I look like a waiter?

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I just dislike the fact that it dominates the genre so heavily.

From my experience with Anime (which, I admit, is very little) the characters that are gay are made to be that way. According to what I have seen and heard, most of the gay couples of anime occur more in non-canon fan-fictions than in the actual canon plot.

But then, I may not be saying much, seeing as I haven't actually watched much anime.

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"My name is Atma...I am a power both ancient and unrivaled... I do not bleed, for I am but strength given form...Feeble creatures of flesh...Your time is nigh!"

I've got a question to all of you: can you give examples of "effeminate characters in anime"? Because I watch anime and read mangas all the time and I don't think they are everywhere. I haven't seen one for a long time, actually. Can it be that I just have different standards? Just give examples, please.

This post has been edited by Silver_Zombie on 10th December 2009 10:17

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You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one...

Quote (Bum Rush Blitzer @ 9th December 2009 20:32)

This seems like a very stupid thing to be arguing over, but that's what happens in forums...

I also dislike how anime portrays the majority of men as effeminate.  It comes across with some sort of homosexual undertones automatically.  Men who look more like women than they do like men.  Kinda gay.

And that's not an anti-gay rant.  I have no problem with gay people.  I just dislike the fact that it dominates the genre so heavily.  It seems like all of entertainment is getting a little more gay.  I don't know if the industry is finally catching up after having gay life stuff kept in the closet for so many years, or if it's oversaturating everything.  I wouldn't know.  It's just more present today than it was even a few years ago.

It's always been funny to me that so many people always pull the "male characters seem gay" card when discussing anime.

Anime does come from Japan. Now, I don't know about the majority of American's and European's experience, but in my experience, living in Asia for awhile, I have found that the men's fashion over there is generally feminine, especially Japan and South Korea. In fact, When I first arrived in South Korea I can remember looking through the stores and only finding -what we would consider- women's jeans in the men's section. It probably took me three weeks before I could find any pants that fit me, (and even then I had to take them to a tailor to get them adjusted a bit) and I'm not a big guy at all. I wear a 30 waist and I'm 5'8" tall.

Many of the trends that are popular in Asia, we see in anime. Now, many of them may be a bit exaggerated, but the point is that anime is a more accurate portrayal of how feminine many Asian men are than I think most of you realize. And honestly, who wouldn't expect that it would represent the area of the world it comes from?

No offense guys, but I think many of the arguments put forth about this issue seem to feel like you think this effeminate representation is toward all men, which I feel shows a slight inability to think outside of your culture box.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 10th December 2009 23:02

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles