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This topic came up when I introduced Resident Evil 4 to three of my friends. For me and my best friend, who is practically my reflection in terms of gaming skill, we now play Res. like one would visit a theme park: the entire game is now a series of very enjoyable rides and nothing is even remotely scary, except perhaps the effort put in by some of the actors.

However, I found that just watching these three play the game was a far better experience than playing it myself. I imagine that for them it was even more of a thrill. I see an old woman holding a butcher's knife and walking slowly towards me as a series of targets: the head, the legs, and the arm holding the knife (codename: Expelliarmus). For the inexperienced players, they saw a horrible zombie lurking forwards, swearing in Spanish, and wanting Leon's blood. Actually, even just for me spectating, I felt a chill as Leon shot wildly trying to hit her and ultimately failing before equipping the shotgun and blasting her back when she was just inches from stabbing him in the chest. That is real horror, and a much better experience.

So I wonder if this rule applies across the board, or just with horror games. I'll admit that the sense of vulnerability and panic that comes with poor gaming skill (I'm not holding anything back here) is probably crucial to the overall thrill of horror games. Having said that, I'd imagine that with any FPS or RPG game bad gamers would get more out of it in terms of a sense of achievement. I've been playing games for so long that I feel somewhat detached from the story and the set-pieces unless they are particularly amazing. If I had things my way, I would reset my gaming clock to about seven years back, lower my standards, and once again sink into any game I play. For now, I'm going to watch these guys finish Res., then we're moving on to BioShock and Condemned, where things are going to get really nasty!

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Well, I consider myself well versed in all sorts of music, tactical and RPG's, but I am tragically bad... nay... HORRIBLE at FPSs. But I LOVE Bioshock. Again, along the lines of that sort-of horror genre, Bioshock is one of those games that I just can't nail the crits to save my life... literally. I've gone through beating bosses by having them chase me to a Vita-Chamber, unloading a clip on them, dying, respawning 2 feet behind myself, reloading BEFORE opening the vita-chamber, running out, unloading a clip, rinse, and repeat.

I also am playing through a Veteran difficulty game of Call of Duty 4 right now, and I've pretty much resigned myself to prepping to "redo" whenever I see a grenade icon. Also, that game sucks, because in the real world, I'd be untouchable and unfindable. I do alot of prone sneaking underneath porches and ledges, and if a single shot came out and picked off on guy, you WOULD NOT know where it came from! And any time I find impenetrable cover, ding! Someone gets a grenade behind it. I think it was dropped my Mystery-Ceiling-Ghost-A that can just crawl through the sky and drop grenades directly on you, because there is NO OTHER WAY that crap happens!

Aside from my ramble, I die in shooters... A LOT. I usually play solo, since by caliber of FPS gaming would just get me ridiculed as "Noobish" online, but when my friends come over, they don't ever stop me right away, because they like to laugh at me.

It's kind of part of the mutual agreement between my friends tho, as I can effortlessly annihilate them with one hand tied behind my back on lefty flip on expert on just about any Guitar Hero or Rock Band game. And for what it's worth, I like to watch them play, not to ridicule as I should be entitled to , but to give tips and support to help make them better. I like watching "bad" players play games that I'm "good" at so I can make them better adversaries for a later date.

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If internal struggles were as enjoyable and glamorous as the self conflicted wars within video game characters, we would all be statues, reveling in perpetual self war. -Me

Play me on Rock Band 2, GH-WT, or any other Xbox GH!
Xbox Gamertag-MeanJerry

I think being a bad gamer can give you a bigger feeling of accomplishment when playing rpgs. For example, I was really awful at FFXII when I first started playing (mostly because I didn't invest in new equipment often enough) and many boss fights came down to bringing in reserve characters and starting quickening chains. I felt pretty good once I finally won. On the other hand, replaying the game I'm finding everything pretty simple and I can't see how I had trouble before. It is still an entertaining game but winning doesn't have the same epic feeling that it did when I was struggling.



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FF games completed: I (psp), II (psp), III (DS), IV (psp), V (GBA), VI (GBA), VII, VIII, IX, X, XI: Nations-Rhapsodies of Vana'diel, XII, XIII, XIV, XV.
Spin-offs: FFIV: Interlude & The After Years, Crisis Core: FFVII, X-2, XIII-2, Lightning Returns, Type-0 HD, Dissidia, Dissidia 012, and Tactics (original & WotL).
Enjoyed them all.

Yeah, I agree about the feeling of accomplishment, and even fear. But there is also the sense of frustration, which I believe is the opposite end of the argument. And as a bad gamer myself I often feel that more than accomplishment.

But that leads to the question, "well, if you're bad at games, why do you play them?"

Quote

However, I found that just watching these three play the game was a far better experience than playing it myself.

I think that is how I feel about games. It's not that I'm really bad at them, but for me, it's mostly the experience. I don't try to be the best at them. My cousin always played Tomb Raider and Sonic, and he brought me into FF, especially VI. And my brother played all of the 007 games.

So, I really think it's all about why you play, but I do think there is a chance for accomplishment if you are not as good as someone else.

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Praise Be To Helix!

"Bad gamers" enjoy games more in the sense that their small capacities for enjoyment are easily fulfilled by minimal dimensions of a game. That is to say, "bad gamers" need less to be entertained more, as most of these posts have concluded.

That being said, "bad gamers" are a far ways off from a greater enjoyment that they simply don't understand. This is a fun that only "good gamers" can relish in. However, there is also a certain pain of being cognizant of this higher level of understanding because if one is not at that level but knows it is there, then it's possibly even worse than being oblivious to it altogether.

Furthermore, "bad gamers" lose a lot to "good gamers." And winning is pretty much the epitome of enjoyment in a game.

So I'd put the score at.... about 1 and a half to 2, favor to "good gamers."

But that's all assuming that there really is any sort of magnitude to the words "good gamers" and "bad gamers." No only in the sense of the multitude of possible genres to excel in, but also in the sense of relativity. Again, if there are no "good gamers" around, then everyone is a "good gamer."

And considering a loser-proof game like an RPG where it's darn near impossible to fail or even be legitimately challenged, and where there is no scale to compare oneself with, then everyone is a "good gamer."

Saying "good gamer" and "bad gamer" makes me feel like a total weenie.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

Haha, I definitely don't like saying 'good' and 'bad' either. I suppose you could say there are three varieties of bad: the people who are young and impatient, and get frustrated quickly; the people who are inexperienced, so no matter how good they are at other games they will always start weakly in something new; and people like BlitzSage who don't really care enough to want to improve their skill, either by practice, or exploration of controls, arenas, tactics or whatever.

I might have missed something leilong, but I don't know if you agree that bad players enjoy games more or not. With BioShock, did you find it more frightening when you realise that you couldn't wipe the sea-bed with any splicers you came across? That game is a good example of horror without vulnerability. I found some of the set-pieces to be utterly brilliant, and very frightening, regardless of whether or not the fight would actually be challenging.

Quote (ILoveMoobas! @ 10th October 2009 23:48)

On the other hand, replaying the game I'm finding everything pretty simple and I can't see how I had trouble before. It is still an entertaining game but winning doesn't have the same epic feeling that it did when I was struggling.

I'm the biggest advocate of FFXII. That game is consistently challenging right up until every last drop of optional boss blood. On my second time through the game I tried to fight everything available, and the sense of winning was still evident. The challenges leading through the plotline are simple, but I suppose that accommodates people who don't want to have difficult obstacles between themselves and the advancement of the plot. I mean, just when you think you can beat anything, we've got our Omega and Yiazmat battles, which take hours to win. Hours! And they get steadily more difficult. What a great idea. It's more like a battle between two armies than a small team and a colossus. The fighting is more about manipulating direction than individual actions.

Quote (Kappa the Imp @ 11th October 2009 05:22)

But that's all assuming that there really is any sort of magnitude to the words "good gamers" and "bad gamers." No only in the sense of the multitude of possible genres to excel in, but also in the sense of relativity. Again, if there are no "good gamers" around, then everyone is a "good gamer."

But there are, so it's an irrelevant point. And there is no such RPG, or game of any genre, where it's so simple that everyone is on the same level. There will always be some level of customisation which will mean the better players have a better strategy or knowledge of the levels, controls, movement, tricks or whatever, and therefore an easier time playing the game.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

It depends entirely on the person.
Even within Caves of Narshe, you have those who like Game A, but dislike Game B for whatever reasons (skill, story, graphics, gameplay, etc). Imagine a general games forum where any and all gamers from all genres and all skill levels gather.

They could be the worst player at every game ever, but still enjoy them thoroughly, whether they win, lose or draw. We call these ones, extremely cheerful. They can lose every round and they still love playing. My niece is like this. She loses every single game we play, but she simply loves the games (and, I suspect, likes playing video games with her uncle).

My brother can play Mario Kart fairly well, but I am better than him, so he never ever wants to play. The game is 'stupid' to him unless he's playing against our pre-teen cousins and nephews. Meanwhile, he is exceptionally good at Street Fighter games, so he ALWAYS wants to play that. Even a game like Goldeneye in which we are equals, he simply can't stand to lose, so he'll be taunting to end for a few rounds when he's winning. The moment he loses, the game is off because it's 'stupid'.

And these are just two examples of two players in my own family. There are thousands of variations on 'who they are' and 'why they play'.

You have those who are good at games, but can't enjoy playing with someone who is learning. Or who can't watch others play because their way is the right way and any deviation from that style is inherently wrong to them. You have those who play for the social aspect, good or bad. You have those who enjoy gaming PERIOD (no matter their skill level). You have the ones who play for storyline and complex plot. Those who play for graphics. Those who like blood/gore and those who like more kid friendly games. In MMOs you have your elite raiders, your channel-trolls, your roleplayers, your pvpers, your social butterflies and others.

Being good at a game may help, but sometimes they are so good to the point of elitism that they can't play with anyone under their skill-level.
Being bad may wreck the game for some, but for others it's a point of self-deprecating humour until they improve.

So again, it really depends on who you are and why you play.

I'm a half-way decent gamer but better than most my friends. I enjoy watching them play but they hate watching me play. They don't want to see survival! They want to see death in spectacular amounts! They don't want to see me walk round a corner and calm as you please pop a cap in some guys ass! They want to see me walk round a corner crap myself shoot till I'm outta bullets scream reload and get busted in the head with a shotgun.

I can immerse myself in just about any game and enjoy it but my casual gaming friends will only play fast paced anti-ADHD games like counter-strike or Half life. I tried to get them hooked on morrowind and oblivion and FF but they just take too long. Also I was new to CS and some guy ran around with a knife and killed everyone, He thought very highly of himself and every round I fell to the knife. I did not enjoy this but over time I got better. The next time he tried to knife me I was waiting for him. With a shotgun. A big one. It felt damn good to see his brains on the wall behind him.

And so I conclude that "bad gamers" will enjoy those games which are super challenging and once they say kill Mr. Knifey that sense of achievement is what makes them feel good and keeps them coming back for more.

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Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

I would say it comes down entirely to the individual.
At first I was going to say those players with more skill will inevitably enjoy games more because they are far more likely to play a game to the end and thus get everything there is to get out of it.

But then some players simply play to the end because they feel they have to, and not always because they enjoy the game. Some players unfortunately are too competitive and will finish a game, just so they can say they have done this, especially with the new trophies on PS3 and the 360s equivalent (gamers score?).

Plus it depends on the game of course, some games are too difficult for those who aren't particularly hardcore, and the frustration sets in before the fun can, which is a real shame. Few of us can sacrifice our pride and tune down to the easy setting.

I think generally, gamers with more skill are likely to enjoy games a little more.

This post has been edited by fatman on 12th October 2009 20:28

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

Upon reading everyone's replies thus far, and with the first post by sweetdude, my girlfriend as a gamer immediately screamed to my mind, along with a few other friends.

I consider myself a very well-rounded gamer. I love and adore RPGs first and foremost, but I'm not too shabby at FPS', the NHL or Tiger Woods series, Gran Turismo/Forza or even a fighter here and there, because I've been playing alot of them for so long, the formula definitely comes down and you come to learn to expect certain things.

However, I recently got myself addicted to Oblivion, for example, (until I got those wonderful three red lights last week... guh...) and even though I pretty much knew the formula for it too, I still come to find myself wrapped in a sense of wonder but each new bit of world I discover, be it location or character-wise. It's great to find games where that wonder can still hit me, in spite of experience. Even Halo 3 hit me with a sense of grandeur and bad-assness upon accomplishing it. Online, I feel pretty damn up to par and really, not all that noob, to my surprise, inspite of my teenage cousin and his friends who can run-round me in circles because, well, they live on it (yay for no responsibilities aside from jobs!)

But, back to the point of my girlfriend whom I do love and adore. Prior to dating me, her gaming experience was minimal at best - just Mario 64 and Mario Kart 64.

Now, upon playing on my DS with New Super Mario Bros, she began to really have fun with it. And I mean, anyone who's been gaming for ages knows the side-scrolling Mario formula, but for her, she was nearly all in the dark, and it's so fun, funny, and sometimes frustrating to watch! But I just love the pure joy she gets from defeating a level she thought she could never beat, I level I speed demon through like nothing. It can be bothersome at times, because I want her to do it herself, but I don't always mind helping her out cause, not gonna' lie, it's a fun ego boost hearing say things like "How are you so GOOD at this?" etc.

Then came introducing her to Legend of Zelda, and I was worried about that, since she'd seen me playing FFs and thought it the most gawd awfully boring thing on the planet. (This is where the "higher level of gamer understanding" comes into play - I understand the joys of the great story and developing character stats - to her, it's just sitting and pushing a button in pointless battle). But, I figured LoZ'd have enough action/puzzle mix for her, and thankfully, I was right. She adores Phantom Hourglass and, honestly, I really thoroughly enjoy sitting back and watching her play Windwaker or PH now and again, because I get to watch the sense of wonder and the unknown come over her.

So, with that novella I've written, I think there is a certain charm in being inexperienced, in not knowing what to expect, that late-blooming gamers have. I sometimes wish I could be captured by that again, and sometimes it happens because, thankfully, I'm not so "pure gamer" that everything's just, well, a game to me.

But still, I agree, that it's sometimes more fun to sit back and watch someone less experienced take the reins and laugh with them, sometimes at them, and watch their reactions as their eyes light up or brows furrow in frustration as Mario, or Link, or whomever, reduces them to being a 5-year old once again.

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Games on the Go
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy: Four Warriors of Light
Baldur's Gate

Too much to play, so little time!

Greg

Well, speaking from two different perspectives, it depends.

In the first Super Smash Brothers, I am really good. But in Brawl, I suck. On one hand, it feels good to win and to only lose if you want to. On the other hand, it feels good to get a victory over someone else after fighting so hard to achieve it. Yet, it is frustrating and tedious to get to that point. But what I was saying earlier doesn't have anthing to do with that I guess. To me, its more about the experience, so I want to be able to lower the difficulty and use some regen or cheat code, just to play the game.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Video games are in some ways similar to music. It's all about expectations and taste. I hate reggeaton, but sometimes there might be a song or two that I like, same goes for video games. I consider myself an 8 out 10 when it comes to RPG's, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game, as a matter a fact I love RPG's the second time around even more because I know what I have to do and can actualy follow the story with out getting lost and wasting hours before "what happens next". The same goes for music, the first time I listen to a song I don't know the lyrics, but after I learn the lyrics and get the message in the song then I can really enjoy it.

Do bad gamers enjoy games more? I don't think so. People enjoy things when they don't expect them to be "this" or "that" good.

This post has been edited by SaffireWeapon on 14th October 2009 04:13

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PS3 tag: TipoDLuffy

"...quite possibly the greatest game ever made"

How the hell do you define a "bad gamer" as in someone who is not playing at a professional level in tournaments? Someone who dies a lot in single player games? Someone who is generally retarded or not very intelligent? Someone who doesn't know what a phoenix down does? Someone who doesn't read the instruction manual and skips all the help/hint/tips sections? What makes a bad gamer ...?

I always skip manuals actually.

I play without a guide.

I got a sort of natural talent for rpgs and with any of the zelda or metroid or even metal gear solid games.

I am not that bad at resident evil as i finished code veronica x and that was the hardest of the series i've played.

I think it has nothing to do with good or bad,just defining what you like or dislike about a game.

Some people like medal of honor and games like that,for me those types of games never did anything for me,does that make them any lesser gamers? NO! of course not,they simply have a diferent taste in what they enjoy.

You can criticise resident evil 4's lack of fear,but the game is quite a good for a action game,its not a true horror anymore though.

I sopose it does fail in that category,although you can still enjoy it.


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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Let's see you complete superman 64 lol. Or get a perfect game on pacman in one go. O.O Not so cocky now hmm? Or perhaps complete resident evil remake using invisible enemy mode + the zombie that stalks you + hardest difficulty

Quote (SSJTrunks @ 16th October 2009 00:33)

Let's see you complete superman 64 lol. Or get a perfect game on pacman in one go. O.O Not so cocky now hmm? Or perhaps complete resident evil remake using invisible enemy mode + the zombie that stalks you + hardest difficulty

I can make a conjecture to say that even gamers that consider themselves to be "good" cannot do those things, as they seem to be very difficult to achieve. Especially the perfect Pacman game, which I believe only a few people have achieved.

Your original question, which I believe was

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How the hell do you define a "bad gamer" as in someone who is not playing at a professional level in tournaments?

I do not believe that is how I would define being a bad gamer. I believe that bad itself is a subjective term, therefore, if I say I am bad at something it depends on my definition of what bad is. Apparently, your definition is much different than mine.

Your post appears to be some type of jest, as if you are taunting somebody for not being able to do those things, as the smiley face sticking its tongue out further implies. I would guess that my definition of what I am is the opposite of that.

While I have the intelligence to solve complex problems, my reaction speed in games is slow at times, making it difficult for me in FPS's and Arcade games, which you need that split second timing. And because of that I am led to the RPG-like difficulty, where things are slower paced. And even in those, I over-level to make it easier.

I'm not saying I can't do faster paced games, but like I said, bad is a subjective term. But the reason I consider myself a "bad gamer" is rather a different philosophy of gaming.

We had a topic a while back asking what type of gamer you were. We struggled to find a way to make a list, because it is difficult to define. But myself, I play games often for reasons other than competition. I play for the experience of playing, the immersive quality of games where you can feel as if you're part of the story. So what I consider a bad gamer is someone who would rather watch someon play, or play on a lower difficulty.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (sweetdude @ 10th October 2009 09:03)

For now, I'm going to watch these guys finish Res., then we're moving on to BioShock and Condemned, where things are going to get really nasty!

you should get them to play Dead Space. That'll be a true ride.

anyway, yeah, i think bad gamers enjoy stuff more, save for a few examples. my friend will not finish bioshock because hes awful at taking down big daddies, but seeing him go in to full panic mode when he met the indestructible hunter in dead space was really fun.

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Aujourdhui a commence avec toi.

I suck at Gears of War and when I finally beat the game I didn't get any sorth of excitement or joy from it. Then I played Dead Space which is a TPS just like GoW, I didn't suck at it and I felt god once I finished the game.

I guess that people who don't play video games enjoy games more than people who have been playing them for more than ten years. Those of us who have been playing from the PSone Age and back seem to know what to expect from a game and only get excited with games we already know (nostalgia).

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PS3 tag: TipoDLuffy

"...quite possibly the greatest game ever made"

I'm going to have to pitch in with what I have seen a couple times in this thread - I think it's easier to follow by using terminology such as "less experienced gamer" or something other than "bad."

I agree, achieving something in a game that comes from a genre at which I'm poor excites me more than something I'm actually reasonably good at - a platform shooter versus a PC FPS, for instance. However, people who are just relatively new to gaming as a whole, just like any new endeavor, have more to look forward to and therefore will enjoy the new experiences more than someone who's been around the block a few times. It probably happens with "bad" gamers more, too, whatever your definition of "bad" is, but I don't think it would be nearly as pronounced as the effect with someone who is new, regardless of their innate skill.

I've been up since 4am today, this post probably makes no sense. Sorry.



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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

I'll also make a bad=inexperienced connection in my answer.

Edit

Which actually sorta ended up being like a couple previous answers...

I think that people that are new to videogames (and not quite as good for that reason) probably enjoy the overall experience more because it's fresh. Also, I know that when I first started playing videogames, I played the ones that looked the most interesting first.

Also, if it's something that I think is a really cool idea, concept or story, I feel motivated to keep playing even more if it's a bit difficult (or if I'm just telling myself that it's more difficult...). When I feel like I've really worked hard to reach a certain point, it feels more fulfilling.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

i´ve been playing games for many years and i used to lose myself more in games as i do now
i still enjoy it as i use to, but it used to be more rewarding to finish games
not sure if it al comes down to being better at gaming now or the `been there, done that` factor
the first time i played the first resident evil i realy was walking in the mansion and scared to go round corners.. it almost kept me awake at night.. and playing FF i realy WAS Cloud! i would like to experience that feeling again but i seem to be to aware im just a guy on a sofa with a controller in my hands

but the fact that im a better gamer now doesn´t always spoil the fun
i play a lot of race and soccer games and my skills are now far better than say a few year ago and i enjoy the games even more just because im better at it..

not totaly on topic but you catch my drift right?

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both feet on the ground won't get you anywhere..

No, that's not off-topic, the topic's about enjoying games, so I think you're right on topic.

I think that you have to be immersed in the game to enjoy it, just like in any storytelling form.

And now that I think about it, I don't believe that being bad or good at games really changes that too much. Though, I guess that if you're bad at a game, or really good at it, it can take you out of the story a bit. But I think people can enjoy them for many reasons.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (ILoveMoombas! @ 10th October 2009 22:48)

I think being a bad gamer can give you a bigger feeling of accomplishment when playing rpgs. I felt pretty good once I finally won. It is still an entertaining game but winning doesn't have the same epic feeling that it did when I was struggling.

Agree with this. Is going to be super-duper honest here and is going to say that is a bad video games player..

Was 13 when brought Final Fantasy VI and didn't complete the game till June this year.. -4 months ago almost. That wasn't long ago..

But when managed to finally get passed FFVI was so happy and thrilled and it was so exciting to challenge Kefka at last after many years of waiting and it felt so awarding to get passed the Goddesses before him..
It felt so great finally seeing the FFVI ending and didn't take one bit of it for granted..

The same feeling occurred when managed to get passed FFIX after getting always stumped on one of the Final Bosses in the Final Dungeons. Can't remember what the boss was- think he was a massive Dragon..

However know somebody is who the is the total opposite. He was a champion at playing Video Games and he got bored pretty quickly. He struggles to find a game that can't complete in a week and most of the time he feels like he is playing a game that is created for children..

But is unsure whether Bad players enjoy games more. Because for a long time before Final Fantasy came about. Hated them. They made me feel stupid and they made me feel completely embarrassed espically in front of friends. Not to mention being a woman and being stereotypical here and most Woman players playing the Sims only feel pressure to be good at games and break the stereotype of Woman Video Game players. Or the Stereotype that "Woman Suck at Games ". And feel kind of bad struggling to break the Stereotype and say " No- The other gender can play games..
But yeah have tried and failed.. -___-'';



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Currently playing Chrono Trigger !!
Currently looking forward to Don't Know.

Quote (ZidaneTribal @ 23rd October 2009 22:16)

Was 13 when brought Final Fantasy VI and didn't complete the game till June this year.. -4 months ago almost. That wasn't long ago..

Wow, lol, welcome to the club finally!

You know, I do that with a lot of games. I haven't finished FFIV, FFXII, CT, or Fallout 3 yet! Of course, I tried to play them all at once.

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Praise Be To Helix!