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I will bet anyone 1000US$ that the world will not end in 2012

should the world end in 2012 you will get 1000US$ each if it doesn't you give me 1000US$

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Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 4th July 2009 13:03)

I will bet anyone 1000US$ that the world will not end in 2012

should the world end in 2012 you will get 1000US$ each if it doesn't you give me 1000US$

The flawed logic in this... is that if the world does end, and you would have to pay out, it won't matter because the world will end. I doubt the world will end in 2012, but there is always the chance. How about if nothing happens, I give you $1000, but if there is any kind of catastrophic event in 2012, you give me $1000. I'm sure there will be atleast 1 earthquake/tornado/hurricane/tsunami/war/disease/famine/something else that would fit into my vague description of a "catastrophic event".

Was this really worth starting a subject over though?

This post has been edited by Fadien on 4th July 2009 19:43

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"And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped” -Sir Bedevere the Wise

Why did we need this posted in two topics? It wasn't that witty to begin with.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN? Or perhaps buying a really good looking shirt?

Regardless though, a lot of the kids in my town keep talking about this, and it is really getting on my nerves. I'm assuming a similar scenario is what spawned this topic? In which case, I feel your pain. It really is unbelievable how much some people will consider this entire thing a legitimate possibility.

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Quote (Death Penalty @ 4th July 2009 23:41)

Regardless though, a lot of the kids in my town keep talking about this, and it is really getting on my nerves. I'm assuming a similar scenario is what spawned this topic? In which case, I feel your pain. It really is unbelievable how much some people will consider this entire thing a legitimate possibility.

Well, some people believe that the Earth is only 6000 years old, so believing an extinct group of people prophecized the end of the world is not much of a stretch.

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Praise Be To Helix!

The only thing 2012 will cause is the end of the world for people who thought this was true and the continued rampage of Roland "Science Is My Bitch" Emmerich's dreadful b-movies depicting the End of The World As We Know It (IE America and some famous landmarks).

The Mayans themselves didn't think it meant the end of the world. The fact it's a New Age theory should be a tip-off, since "New Age" these days means "Made up by guys who drank LSD like Kool-Aid in the 60's or ate paint as a child." in 9 out of 10 cases. The rest of the time it's often just a con artist. Like you tried to be.

This post has been edited by Del S on 5th July 2009 06:48

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Quote (Del S @ 5th July 2009 08:45)

The Mayans themselves didn't think it meant the end of the world.

Yes and no.

According to the Mayans, IIRC, the World has already "ended" and "began again" about four times, I think. If the Mayans are to be believed in any way, 2012 will be some kind of turning point in history.

Also, are kids REALLY talking so much about this? Weird.

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Fadien has hit the nail on the head there I can't lose!

It was a joke I wasn't actually going to bet 1000$ I didn't even give banking details!

This post has been edited by R8.50 Mango on 5th July 2009 09:42

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Since I advertise CoN there I think it's only fair that I advertise The Wiki here.

Quote (R8.50 Mango @ 5th July 2009 09:41)

Fadien has hit the nail on the head there I can't lose!

It was a joke I wasn't actually going to bet 1000$ I didn't even give banking details!

Ah okay, it was a joke. So your point is to point out in a sarcastic way that you think the theory was stupid? I thought you were being serious. Man, that sarcasm stuff kills me. Someone will have to explain how that works to me.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Why does every religion seem to have an 'end of the world' scenario of some description? It's just asking for trouble.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 5th July 2009 17:55

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 5th July 2009 17:54)

Why does every religion seem to have an 'end of the world' scenario of some description? It's just asking for trouble.

Why it prevalent is probably because it offers solace, as it represents a end or climax to the struggle of good and evil, which is also prevalent in all religions. It represents our internal and external struggle with morality.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Haha, why because evil will always win? That's some comfort!

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 5th July 2009 23:57)

Haha, why because evil will always win? That's some comfort!

It's hope, sweetdude, hope.

As for the Mayans, I think they just ran out of time, or got bored and stopped making the calendar.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 6th July 2009 00:47

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (sweetdude @ 5th July 2009 12:54)

Why does every religion seem to have an 'end of the world' scenario of some description? It's just asking for trouble.

Brings in the coin from the "faithful" that what to get their "clean" little souls into Heaven.

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I have always felt like it's kind of sick for religion to so gratefully beg for the end of humanity... as far as the Mayans go, I don't think that was their intention. When you have an extinct culture, it usually makes sense that they quit updating their calendar... just sayin'

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (BlitzSage @ 6th July 2009 01:45)

It's hope, sweetdude, hope.

As for the Mayans, I think they just ran out of time, or got bored and stopped making the calendar.

Are you joking? Sorry I've been a bit slow lately, and if I've missed the colossal irony of your past two posts then accept my apologies.

If you're not joking, then you'll have to explain a lot further. Hope for what? The end of everything and the wastage of life, history, and anything good that we as a species have accomplished?

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

The hole "the world will end in 2012"theory is just blasphemy.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 5th July 2009 18:45)

Quote (sweetdude @ 5th July 2009 23:57)

Haha, why because evil will always win? That's some comfort!

It's hope, sweetdude, hope.

As for the Mayans, I think they just ran out of time, or got bored and stopped making the calendar.

The Mayan calendar is actually based on a constantly decreasing number system. The decision of when "the world ends" is based of off phi, also known as The Golden Ratio.

The way it works is that their primary increment of time (and I'm not sure what that was) is calculated against phi, and a slightly smaller string of time is created thereafter. That increment of time is then calculated against phi, and a yet smaller increment exists. Continue until it's too tiny to count. The ratio, however, is 1.61803... to 1, so the degradation is very slow at first. It was thought that every time a new section of the ratio is hit on the timeline, major events happen in history. This also means that as we approach 2012, if this theory is true, substantial changes will start occurring monthly, then weekly, then daily, then hourly, and much like Aristotle's Dichotomy Paradox It's one of those paradoxes that technically will never end, even though it obviously does.

But if the increments get down to the second in 2012, and substantial things continue to happen, I would definitely call that the end of the world as we know it at least.

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If internal struggles were as enjoyable and glamorous as the self conflicted wars within video game characters, we would all be statues, reveling in perpetual self war. -Me

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That stuff is a lie, we're gonna be dead in 2013, the Mayans just messed it up.

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If god is all-forgiving then why do we have to kill people in his name?

Quote (sweetdude @ 6th July 2009 05:26)

Are you joking?

I think this comment is the joke.

Quote (Gigantuar @ 6th July 2009 07:34)

The hole "the world will end in 2012"theory is just blasphemy.

Poe's Law anyone?

Quote (sweetdude)

Hope for what? The end of everything and the wastage of life, history, and anything good that we as a species have accomplished?

(Agreed)
Again I say, it is disturbing how religions (not just primitive and extinct ones, but even those of today) beg for the end of humanity and all life as we know it. Those of us who do not believe it get stuck in the middle and fear for our lives if humanity indeed attempts to make it's own self fulfilling prophecy. With the Mayans (and I may be wrong about this) I don't think that was the intention. I think it's the wish for the end of the world, by modern day humanity, that causes many to look past the fact that an extinct culture eventually had to stop expanding their calendar, in order to make up more and more reasons for why we will see the end of the world within our natural life span.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

I am going to speak in an atheistic way, but I am not an atheist. (if you really must know I am not talking about the spiritual, personal religions, but the worldly organized religions).

What I am speaking of is why religion was created in the first place. Those who suffer through their lives can believe that the next life will be better. It is reasonable then, to suspect that all forms of religion are used to fill this void: you want to see your lost love ones, you want to feel life continues. That is what I meant by hope.

Now, how does religion regress to what you and sweetdude have stated? Well, it sadly does so very easily, through natural human emotions. Fear, I would suppose, is the greatest catalyst in this extreme change. It was through fear that the Mayans sacrificed thousands to appease the gods. The fear of damnation spurred many violent acts throughout the Christian world too, such as the publishing of Malleus Maleficarum, and the subsequent witch trials. We look at these trials today as hokey, but at the time people were much more devout with their religious convictions. And that was because the times in which they lived were rough. They often battled plagues, starvation, and the rule of oppressive leaders that cited divine right to claim the throne.

As a non-atheist, (or to classify myself some kind of deist or maybe just a spiritualist), that also questions church doctrine, I understand how difficult it is to witness the often hypocritical and repressive acts of believers. But we must not condemn faith because of people's extremist views, as those views are often caused by fear.

And I know that's not what you guys were doing, I just felt the need to say that and make a distinction. Because I too criticize such extreme acts, but I don't want to criticize people's beliefs.

Edit

By the way, explain Poe's Law. I believe I have heard of it, but I don't know.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 7th July 2009 00:46

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Praise Be To Helix!

I criticize belief, but as you and I have discussed before, these things can be done in a civil manner. It can be done in a way that we cause one another to think harder about our beliefs, rather than making someone feel like we thnk they are stupid.
I'll wrap this up because I'm on my iPhone and taking a break from studying for a math test in the morning.
In regard to your question about Poe's Law; Poe's Law comes from Nathan Poe, and states,“ Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing. ”
Poe's Law makes the clear point that it is hard to tell parodies of fundamentalism from the real thing, since they both seem equally insane. Poe's law also functions in its converse: real fundamentalism can easily be mistaken for a parody of fundamentalism.

In other words. I don't really believe that our friend above believes that 2012 is "blasphemy" and IF he really does, it's still hard to believe because the idea of that is insane.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

I don't understand the criticism of beliefs, if they are indeed individual and personal. Faith is something that explains things that science cannot. It is more correct to criticize secular religions and fundamentalism. I wish to make a distinction between those two things, because they are different.

First of all, who's fundamentals are we talking about? Because no modern religions claim the 2012 thing to be true. How can the Mayans' 2012 myth be considered blasphemy if the Mayans were not Christian? It is not blasphemy to their beliefs. So, I don't know who we are really criticizing in this forum. People who have been dead for centuries? Religions that are completely unconnected? No, this is something like Y2K, or, a way for people to capitalize by making movies and tv shows based on it. Or, it's just something to talk about.

And if it is to be in a civil manner, would you then condemn Poe's Law? Because to parody religion and fundamentalism is to essentially call people idiots, am I correct? If you do not like someone's fundamentals, then explain exactly what is wrong with them, instead of going Comedy Central on it and inciting anger in people.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 6th July 2009 21:19)

I don't understand the criticism of beliefs, if they are indeed individual and personal.

The word criticize does not mean to ridicule. Again, just because someone believes doesn't mean they are stupid.

Quote (BlitzSage)

Faith is something that explains things that science cannot.

This is where we disagree. Faith attempts to put things it cannot prove in the holes that science has not yet filled. It doesn't "explain" anything at all; only mankind's desire to have an answer for everything, even that which we haven't really discovered a logical answer for yet.

Quote (BlitzSage)

It is more correct to criticize secular religions and fundamentalism.

Hmm, while I think "secular religion" is an oxymoron, I have to say you're right about fundamentalism.

Quote (BlitzSage)

First of all, who's fundamentals are we talking about? Because no modern religions claim the 2012 thing to be true.

Indeed, and that's not what I meant. What I mean is, I think modern day people desire for the Mayan calendar to mean (or interpret) the end of the world, not that Christianity (for example) is preaching 2012 as the end.

Quote (BlitzSage)

How can the Mayans' 2012 myth be considered blasphemy if the Mayans were not Christian? It is not blasphemy to their beliefs

Again, that was not the point of what I was saying.

Quote (BlitzSage)

No, this is something like Y2K, or, a way for people to capitalize by making movies and tv shows based on it. Or, it's just something to talk about.

That's exactly what I've been saying too

Quote (BlitzSage)

And if it is to be in a civil manner, would you then condemn Poe's Law? Because to parody religion and fundamentalism is to essentially call people idiots, am I correct? If you do not like someone's fundamentals, then explain exactly what is wrong with them, instead of going Comedy Central on it and inciting anger in people.

Sometimes the best remedy for fundamentalism is humor. Though it may seem condescending, it was things like this (along with other things) that caused me to realize how silly what I once believed is.

Anyway, there is no point in condemning Poe's Law, since it just makes a statement which is true, “ Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing. ”
If you mean to say, condemn the person who is pulling fundamentalist satire on the other, I guess I could see where you might disagree with satire of that magnitude.
In the end, I brought Poe's Law into it because someone said earlier, "The hole 'the world will end in 2012' theory is just blasphemy."
I see this as an example of Poe's Law in action. I can't tell whether or not it's real fundamentalism or whether it's sarcasm, because it seems so over the top.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 7th July 2009 07:36

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (Sephiroth @ 7th July 2009 03:31)

I see this as an example of Poe's Law in action. I can't tell whether or not it's real fundamentalism or whether it's sarcasm, because it seems so over the top.

But, happily, we've had like five posts now dedicated to discussing it, so surely we've come to a conclusion now. Right? Right? Oh, and if not, we could always ask the person who bloody posted it.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN? Or perhaps buying a really good looking shirt?

Moderator Edit

I don't actually understand how this post is actually any more on topic. Are you trying to get this thread closed? -R51

Well, I might be wrong, but I believe the topic of the argument changed when sweetdude posted this.

Quote (sweetdude)

Why does every religion seem to have an 'end of the world' scenario of some description? It's just asking for trouble.

And almost every post after that was really about religion, so I figured that the conversation shifted to that. And many posts before that the topic was partly because of 1) the Mayan's religion and 2) how we can believe such things, which I believe ties in with religion. Because otherwise, there are only a certain amount of "isn't it crazy" posts. I thought the main point had changed, but I am sorry either way. I would not intentionally kill another's post.

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 9th July 2009 04:27

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Praise Be To Helix!

Wasn't the world supposed to end in 2000? Remember Y2K? All that hoopla, and yet we're still here. It's fascinating to me, looking back at pre-2000 sci-fi, and seeing how much of it is set in 1999 or 2000 like that is some kind of magic year. I was re-reading The Martian Chronicles and it begins in January 1999. Destroy all Monsters is set in 1999. Even in Chrono Trigger, 1999 is the day of the Lavos apocalypse!

Well, the new millennium has been here for almost a decade and not much has changed. We don't even have flying cars yet, which I'm personally very disappointed about - although living in LA and seeing how people drive on the ground, maybe it's not such a good idea after all. I could easily see cars flying off the freeway and into my roof.

Basically, now that we can't use 1999 or 2000 as some apocalyptic year, people needed something new and jumped on 2012. When that passes, I'm sure something else will come along.

The world could end in 2012, that much I won't discount. However, it could end tomorrow or it could end several billion years from now. It will end, as everything from our transient lives to the all mighty cosmos itself is impermanent, that much is certain. However, predicting the future is hard and even with their fancy fortune telling calendar the Mayans weren't able to save themselves. The History Channel had a piece on the end of the world which seemed to propagate the 2012 year mark with several other profits but really, just what basis do such profits have for believing such a thing? Nothing solid, I'll say that much.

Furthermore, even if it does end at the prescribed date, just how much does it really matter? Sure you could go out on wild binge parties, act with reckless abandon and fart up a storm but only if you cared so little about dignity and humanity's general quality of life in its final years. Without knowing how the world would end, there's little one could do to prevent it, assuming the method of destruction would even something we're even capable of mitigating. With the knowledge we have now, if the world as we know it was a matter of fact, it'd be something for people to be concerned about sure but not any moreso than any other problem causing suffering right now at this very moment. Why not focus our efforts towards solving existent problems we can fix, rather than worrying about the realm of minute possibilities and absolute fate? It'd certainly make a lot more sense, at least in my book.

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Role reversal at its finest.

I actually believe in that theory. The idea to me makes history seem like a cyclic thing, which I think is true. For every force there is an opposite force, sort of like good and evil, right and wrong, etc.

Either way, I agree that it shouldn't matter when it ends, cause we can't change it. We need to focus on what we can change, bettering ourselves, and progressing as a society or species. I guess that is my optimistic opinion. What if we are travelling to other solar systems before the Sun burns out? What if, when the Universe contracts, we find another Universe? Why would we be negaive about such things, especially since the Sun burning out and the Big Crunch will not happen in our lifetimes (hopefully). But we could stop Global Warming. We could populate Mars. We could make Star Wars-esque starships and travel about. Heck, we could discover magic. You might be saying, "okay, I was with you until..." No.... why not? Why should we limit ourselves? I don't believe that there are limits, nothing is impossible. I believe that life is like a virus that will spread, evolve, and grow to new heights, if it's given enough time.

But if we're not given enough time, say it does all end in 12, shouldn't we at least say we grew to bigger heights?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Don't want to believe that the end of the world is 2012. Don't want to believe that it's the end and just some random sciencest way of wanting to sell a book and make cash. Because want people to live on through 2012 and well have a chance to grow older - find true love- have a chance to get married and have children and have a chance to have share movies and biscuits with their grandchildren..

Is a strong believer in the Bible and believe that humans/ people of science will fail to predict the world's ending. It says that in the Bible that the ending will be unexpected and will shock us all like a thief stealing your treasures in the night.

But some things do make me a little worried..

Like people of science predict Yellowstone one of the most dangerous of Volcanoes to explode sometime in early/ middle of 2012. They say that the explosion to cause poisons and harmful smoke to cover to most places of the world..

And the cannon that they want to use to prove that the Big Bang created the world. If they right we could be safe but if they are wrong who knows what damage to the universe it could cause ..

But yeah don't believe that it's going to happen. They maybe a few big earthquakes and a couple of wind storms to keep us nervous and guessing but don't believe that it's going to occur in 12.

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Currently playing Chrono Trigger !!
Currently looking forward to Don't Know.