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Yeah, and those people's opinions don't mean a d***ed thing, just like mine doesn't. The truth is, he made good music, and put on even better performances. But no one can keep doing that. Like Bob Dylan said in his 60 mintes interview, "I don't think I could do that anymore." And that is Bob Dylan saying that, possibly the greatest songwriter of all time telling the truth.

And everyone exploits fame if you are a celebrity. That's sort of what it's all about.

The media turned on MJ, like they would any of us in the same situation. The second line has some truth in it, but like I said it was not completely his fault.

But the last line has always been true. Public opinion just turned on him.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Turn on him? What, you supported what he did? His extravagant spending and nonsense fairytale "life?" How about the whole balcony scenario? That's not forgivable. The media (and some people) stopped liking him after what a sideshow his life became. What he did IS his fault and he should be held responsible for that, even after death. People think this is some clean slate.

He wasn't just exploiting his fame, he lied to and exploited these banks to get that money. And lets not forget the lie that got him kicked out of the Middle East.

Its not "truth." Its not "fact." Its objectivity to say his music was good. I just have trouble seeing anyone mourn a guy who had his chance to make good on his fame, and instead went down the road of vanity and addiction.

And the whole Bob Dylan thing doesn't make sense. First, they were two different styles of performers, and Dylan was nearly 20 years his senior. OF COURSE he can't do it anymore. And yeah, I give him props for being a good songwriter, but that doesn't make his argument MORE relevant.

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And have you found your joy, in this near dead world of ours?

Not relevant? They are both entertainers. And they are not twenty years apart career-wise. Bob started recording in the early 60s, and MJ was signed sometime in the late 60s. He was older and past his prime. It doesn't matter which style. Well, then again, Bob didn't spin around, but it is what it is.

Quote (Gabe)

How about the whole balcony scenario? That's not forgivable. The media (and some people) stopped liking him after what a sideshow his life became. What he did IS his fault and he should be held responsible for that, even after death. People think this is some clean slate.

Do you think it was his fault he was accused for a crime which he was not charged for? If I accused you of raping me, and I am wrong and just after your money, is that your fault?

And is literally a couple seconds of his, your, or anyone's life not forgivable? Is one bad decision of his, which did not result in any harm, really enough to judge him like you do?

Quote (Gabe)

Its not "truth." Its not "fact." Its objectivity to say his music was good. I just have trouble seeing anyone mourn a guy who had his chance to make good on his fame, and instead went down the road of vanity and addiction.

Perhaps it is not fact. But can you really not say that there are so many people in popular music today that cite him as an influence, or as their favorite entertainer? Is his influence not therefore tangible?

And who in the world do you suppose does not go down the road of vanity and addiction? Who in the world does not think about themselves first? You? Me? Who is not addicted to something? What do you think fame is? Popularity? Money? You can be addicted to any of these, anything.

Quote (Gabe)

Turn on him? What, you supported what he did? His extravagant spending and nonsense fairytale "life?"

To which actions are you question my support? His brilliant artistry? Or the alleged, media-conduced image of him in which there was an alleged crime? Do I support someone who had a vivid imagination and wished to live like a child, all the while loving and caring for many people? Is that such a crime to do? Extravagant spending? You sound like Rush Limbaugh or someone. Does it matter how much money he spent or had? And which lies are you speaking of? What proof do you have of these lies? Which lies exactly?

This is just my opinion, but I don't associate with anyone who does not believe people can be forgiven and does not look for the good in someone instead of the bad or tragic.

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Praise Be To Helix!

How can I forgive someone who has not shown remorse for what he's done? You keep going back to his "alleged" (if not guilty, it was pretty damn borderline) pedophilia, and I never brought that up in any of my posts, only when referring to other posts. You know, OJ wasn't found guilty either, but all the evidence was there. It's hard to have faith in our legal system when it drops the ball on so many high profile cases (Dante Stallworth getting 30 days in jail for vehicular manslaughter, DUI). Whether he did it or not, we'll never know. You can have your beliefs and I'll keep mine.

It hasn't been just a couple of seconds of his life. He's been doing this ever since he had zoos and rollercoasters put in his backyard. Not to mention he let some of the animals die when he first moved out of Neverland. He was so caught up in his own world that he didn't recognize the world around him. Who says what he did (or didn't do) didn't cause any harm? No one ever interviewed his kids, who knows how they liked being raised by a father who made them wear ballroom masks out in public?

I dislike most popular music, and listen to a lot of Jazz, fusion jazz, and blue. So I wouldn't know about influences, but I've had influences in my life too. It doesn't mean I'm still going to be my own person. A lot of people have addictions. I have an addiction to exercise. A positive addiction and a far cry from vanity and his addictions, which included plastic surgery and drugs -- namely painkillers. You only let yourself become addicted to money, and letting the all mighty dollar will land you in 40 million dollars debt. Much like MJ.

You're right, at one point, he may have been considered a brilliant artist, but he squandered it on, yes, extravagant spending. Its not every day a brilliant artist buys a set of bones. Or when he bought the entire Beatles catalog (which ruined his friendship with Paul McCartney). Not to mention the aforementioned Neverland. I'm probably going to get rammed for using this word, but its not "normal" for the human psyche to want to act as a child. We are urged to grow in our lives and experiences, and he didn't seem to want to let that go. I guess I just have a move fulfilling sense of life than he did.

These lies, the ones that got him kicked out of Saudi Arabia (after the Sheikh gave him FREE land next to his palace):
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m135...8/ai_n15691192/
http://www.mwza.com/sheikh-abdulla-bin-ham...ichael-jackson/


Don't consort with me, that's fine, but just realize the man is being accepted into the annals of Hollywood Sainthood for more than just his music.

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And have you found your joy, in this near dead world of ours?

Gabe, you sound you're making this who thing a little too personal, especially since I don't think you knew Michael Jackson (or did you?), and over all I think you're missing the point Blitz and I are trying to make. That is, that we respect Michael Jackson as an artist. He inspired many people with his music throughout his life, and same goes for his dancing (and that we simply don't believe he is a child molester). I realize that there are drama queens out there making a bigger deal than it should be to them (since again, they don't know him really), but is it really necessary to drag up all this old nonsense? The guy is dead, and some of us are trying to honor what he did with a simple RIP, or maybe saying how he inspired us, and for some reason you feel the need to get (obviously) upset about the whole deal, ranting about how you can never forgive him...
I just don't see the sense in it all, honestly.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

I'm going to straight-out punch in the mouth the next person who makes it seem like Michael Jackson dying is the end of the world. While I don't always agree with Gabe, and while there are some views in his argument that I don't particularly share, I have to go along with him in the most part.

Dying doesn't absolve you of anything. Whether or not people choose to believe he was guilty of any crime does not change the fact that there was a very solid case against the man, and were he anyone else, definitely would have been convicted and put behind bars.

I won't deny the influence of the man, not just in music, but also in choreographed dance, but that doesn't mean he wasn't going to someday die. It's not tragic, it is life. People die. In his 50 years, he got to do, see and enjoy a lot more than most of us will ever get the chance to, so I don't feel overly bad about his early passing.

For someone who was the living embodiment of the Peter Pan complex, he definitely lived a full and extravagant life. Just don't forget that there was both good and bad in that, and no matter how brilliant he was as an artist, he was still just another person.

Life goes on. I just wish everyone would let it go. He's dead, get over it. You didn't lose a child, or a wife, or a close friend, so it's absolutely absurd that his death is still taking precedence in the news and media in general over everything else going on.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

First of all, Gabe we're probably more alike than either of us know. Just the fact that you said the words "fusion," "blues" and "jazz" make me like you a little more. My favorite music has always been that stuff, Steely Dan? Stevie Ray Vaughan? If you like those guys, I can't argue with you much.

And I will say this, that while I love the music Michael Jackson made, all of the copycats today I don't like much. Mainly because they are trying to do MJ's music without its main aspect: MJ himself.

And as much as Dragon_Fire's argument is fatalistic and sadly Darwinisticly all about our survival and without any sympathy, I have to agree with it. The sick truth is that we have to live on. Even if you are sad, even if it's a person who is close to you, just get over with it and live your live. That's what you meant, right?

Is there really something wrong with trying to remain a child? I heard him say in an interview that he was compensating for his childhood he lost.

Is it wrong, or do we just not understand it? In this interview I am watching, he tells that his father beat him, and that he used to cry a lot. ANd the reason he loved children was that he lost his childhood. You can believe what a bunch of people tell you, or you can hear from his own words that he loves people and wouldn't try to hurt him. That's why I say "tragedy." Why not mourn him and remember him?

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Praise Be To Helix!

It's may not be the apocalypse Dragon_Fire but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's completely insignificant either. I'd agree with BlitzSage that his works were widely influential. He was adored by many, made the world's current bestselling album and served like a bit of a role model for those who've wanted to become big time performers. I personally wasn't the biggest fan of his music, as like with most pop stars, his voice was pure but lacked tonal variation from song to song. I did find it do find it a more listenable as unlike other pop stars, his background tracks and performer's touch projected a certain aura of cool around him that you don't get with people in the genre. I believe he was also an awesome, awesome dancer of the sort we really need more of but really, all this is veering away from the point. Regardless of wether you're his biggest fan or not, it's the end of a dynasty and as such there's naturally a huge reaction. This is normal for celebrity deaths. The only reason Jackson's death any bigger is because he was young, seemingly healthy and still in the forefront of the world mind. It'll settle down eventually and the world will go on as it once was but now's not quite the time. The world's still in its mourning phase, there's no need to knock anybody's daylights out over it.

I'd say more pertaining to other parts of the conversation but I'm a bit short on time unfortunately, maybe later. Maybe…

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Role reversal at its finest.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 30th June 2009 12:36)

First of all, Gabe we're probably more alike than either of us know. Just the fact that you said the words "fusion," "blues" and "jazz" make me like you a little more. My favorite music has always been that stuff, Steely Dan? Stevie Ray Vaughan? If you like those guys, I can't argue with you much.

Steely Dan was the first band that got me into the genre. I've seen them numerous times and each time I hear one of their songs its just as spectacular. No one can ever match the guitar playing of Stevie Ray, and he will be sorely missed.

Although Al Di Meola and John McGlaughlan come close. When I saw Return to Forever during their world tour last year, it was easily the best show I've ever seen. I saw Five Peace Band (with McGlaughlan and Chick Corea) a few months ago, and while I enjoyed their style, I just think that Corea is trying to outdo himself after his album with Return to Forever, Romantic Warrior. That should be considered his Opus and he needs to stop trying to create the next big thing.

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And have you found your joy, in this near dead world of ours?

He was talented but really messed up.

He might have been a pedophile,but we will never know.
He had a good lawyer to defend him and he payed off alot of people to make sure he survives.

I am not accusing or anything but just because he is dead,we shouldn't go praising him like jesus.There is one thing he did do,and that was hold his kid over a balcony.I mean wtf went through his mind to hold a baby over the balcony?

As for his music,well i think he kind of strayed and i became less and less interested.He became a bit corny.

Yes thriller was great,I remember billy jean and beat it.

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

Michael Jackson died.
Too damn f*cking bad.
Move on.
He's no God.
Just another human being who's no less of a mortal than we are.
I thought his music was good.
But move on.

Quote (Gabe @ 30th June 2009 21:08)

Steely Dan was the first band that got me into the genre. I've seen them numerous times and each time I hear one of their songs its just as spectacular. No one can ever match the guitar playing of Stevie Ray, and he will be sorely missed.

See, now I can't argue with you man. SRV died just about four months before I turned one year old. And He is my favorite guitarist. I never met him, didn't really know him, but I miss him. I missed the chance to see him play live, and watch him grow old and make more music. Could you imagine if John Lennon, Otis Redding, Jimi Hendrix, and now MJ could've had one more album?

I don't think we should just move on, some of us still thought of him as a legend, and a gentle humanitarian who loved children. Not sexually, but because they are pure and honest and loving. So let's not move on, remember him not for the allegations but the truths. That he touched many of us, and taught us to never let go of our childhoods. To never stop pretending, imagining, loving. He taught me that, how can I move on?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 30th June 2009 17:13)

That he touched many of us, and taught us to never let go of our childhoods.

Some way more than others

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And have you found your joy, in this near dead world of ours?

Quote (Gabe @ 30th June 2009 22:25)

Quote (BlitzSage @ 30th June 2009 17:13)

That he touched many of us, and taught us to never let go of our childhoods.

Some way more than others

So what?

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Praise Be To Helix!

My humor is not as appreciated in the forums as it is chat, I see.

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And have you found your joy, in this near dead world of ours?

Quote (Gabe @ 1st July 2009 02:20)

My humor is not as appreciated in the forums as it is chat, I see.

Well, I hate it, but it's funny. I loved him, and didn't believe it for one second. But it's funny.

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Praise Be To Helix!

1. That humor is getting old, because everyone is saying the same things.
2. If you guys are so insistent that the world move on and not care about his death.. why do you care enough to even post about it? Especially with as upset as everyone one was getting..
I can't believe it escalated to people getting angry about all this, and threatening to hit someone in the mouth..
All some of us ever wanted to do in the first place was pay our respects, say a few words and then move on, and no one can do that apparently, because the opposing side has everything under the sun negative to say about anyone looking past some of the things Michael Jackson did that were weird, or messed up in order to see the good things he did for a moment...
I think I'm done with this conversation, thanks...

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

I loved Michael Jackson as a kid. I grew up in the 80's, and back then he really was the king of mainstream music. As someone who is big into storytelling and loves film, I also have to appreciate that his videos were way ahead of their time. Thriller might still be the best video ever made.

Over the past decade or so I saw what kids who grew up in the 90's have probably only ever known, the freak side of MJ. Dude was weird, really no arguing that. Regardless of whether or not you believe the accusations (I lean towards the side that does) you can't deny that it's unusual for a grown man to admit he sleeps in the same bed with little boys, not his own, and doesn't even understand why people would see something wrong with that.

And while I occasionally thought back to how cool MJ was "back when he was black," I guess I never really understood what that music meant to me until he died, because all I've really associated with him the past few years has been the modern freak. It brought back a lot of childhood memories, and it is sad because in a way a part of those memories have died. Back when I watched MJ in the 80's as a kid, I had no idea what he was going to become. I only knew of this amazing artist whose music and movies (because that's what they really were, his music vids) inspired, entertained, and even moved me.

On another level, it's just sad to think back to that time when he was so revered, with people not knowing what he was going to become, and then have that feeling crushed by the realization that he actually did become Wacko Jacko, and that there is a lot of childhood trauma that accounts for that. While you can't forgive pedophilia (again, falling on the side of the camp that thinks him probably guilty) it doesn't make it any less tragic that child abusers often were abused as children themselves, not always necessarily the same type of abuse.

Basically, I see what everyone is saying. I've felt both sides. I was shocked by his death and it suddenly brought back the guy who gave me all those great childhood memories, but in recent days with talk about his kids possibly not being his, and all the other stories surrounding his death, I'm starting to recall why I couldn't call myself an MJ fan after the 1990's.

I was originally only going to post here to share some pics I took at UCLA when he died, since I went to school there and was in the area when the news broke. Guess I got a little sidetracked and went on a rant after reading the thread the past few days. Here are the pics:

Wow, what a cluster****.

Look, it's impossible to deny Jackson's abilities or influence. From a very young age he was an incredibly talented and successful, he's had one of the most successful pop careers of all time, and he deserves some respect for that. Still, I don't buy his "never having a childhood" excuse for the incredibly sketchy situations he was placed in with multiple young boys, and his multiple plastic surgeries and nigh-grotesque physical transformation as a result just fueled the fire for both the haters and the hardcore apologists.

Really, I think Jackson's life is a tragedy, but not because he "never had a childhood." It's a tragedy because he was an incredible talent that became a (justified) laughingstock and an abomination late in his life. It's too bad.

This post has been edited by laszlow on 1st July 2009 23:33

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Quote (laszlow @ 1st July 2009 23:33)

Really, I think Jackson's life is a tragedy, but not because he "never had a childhood." It's a tragedy because he was an incredible talent that became a (justified) laughingstock and an abomination late in his life. It's too bad.

I think that is right. He had problems, but I think that is tragic. Don't you guys?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (laszlow @ 1st July 2009 15:33)

Really, I think Jackson's life is a tragedy, but not because he "never had a childhood."  It's a tragedy because he was an incredible talent that became a (justified) laughingstock and an abomination late in his life.  It's too bad.

He was beaten as a child, and that was at least a partial cause of him becoming a pedophile and "abomination." That strikes me as more tragic than the loss of talent.

Quote (BlitzSage @ 30th June 2009 13:36)

And as much as Dragon_Fire's argument is fatalistic and sadly Darwinisticly all about our survival and without any sympathy, I have to agree with it. The sick truth is that we have to live on. Even if you are sad, even if it's a person who is close to you, just get over with it and live your live. That's what you meant, right?

No, what I meant is that it's pathetic watching people who never even knew the man weeping as if they had just lost a relative or loved one.

Also, this whole "MJ had no childhood" argument is lame. Sure, his father beat him, but I have to give a big "so what?" here. I know plenty of children who were raised in homes were breaking the rules meant getting slapped upside the head. They've all grown up just fine. In MJ's case, as a result of his Father, he became a multi-millionaire and one of the world's best selling artists. I don't see tragedy there whatsoever.

Maybe as a result, he wished he could have been a real-boy. Maybe that's why he touched children, allegedly, but again, so what? Does it justify the act or make it any better? It certainly doesn't make me feel bad for him.


Also, I didn't realize humor was dead on the internet. At least I lol'd, Gabe.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

I don't mean to have a go at you, DF, but that's just such a poor outlook. Something about the dismissive 'so what?' has stuck with me. I know it's the internet, so it's not good to take anything seriously, but I think you should reconsider. Hey look, if someone told you the same thing about their life in person of course you would sympathise with them. For some reason we've got one rule for MJ and another for everyone else.

Quote ( Sephiroth @ 1st July 2009 09:06)

1. That humor is getting old, because everyone is saying the same things.

That's pretty much what I think too. Ah it's not that bad, but it's just begging for a short drum roll and a cymbal crash at the end. The other teachers at my girlfriend's school couldn't wait to start sharing jokes about his death. That's pretty sick if you think about it. I know teachers are just human like us, but what if a pupil told another an MJ joke, would they just laugh along with them?

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 2nd July 2009 17:01)

Also, I didn't realize humor was dead on the internet. At least I lol'd, Gabe.

Thank God you did. It's good to have someone like you showing all us boring, humourless internet folks the light eh?

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Umm, DF, have you seen his father? That man is out of his mind. You think MJ was crazy, take a load of this.

Joe Jackson on the world "losing such a great entertainer" *his words literally*

The man was nuts. Still is. I seriously don't wish to argue any more, but abuse is a "so what" to you? I think that everything he did, or allegedly did, was exactly caused by the abuse of Joe Jackson.

I spoke earlier about them hiring a prostitute when MJ was 16 and locking him in the room with her. Imagine that you are in his shoes.

You are an abused, socially and sexually stunted person who is still mentally is a child and has no interest in sex. Yet your father, who you should trust, yet calls you "big nose" and hits you, locks you in a room to "pop your cherry."

All the while your mother, who is at home while you're on the road (from the time you were 8 or 9 until 16, when this occurs), she's preaching in your ear about how sex is a sin, and you can't do anything bad.

So your mother that you haven't seen in months is telling you not to have sex until you're married, and your father has just locked you into a room with a whore.

Now, I wonder if you would've been emotionally traumatized, if you would have been turned androgynous like Michael was. If, maybe, just maybe, you would've had the same troubles.

Look, I'm not saying you have to cry for him, because I will agree that it gets on my nerves sometimes when people do. But there are things he went through that none of us can imagine. And they took a major toll on his life. Come on, do you not feel at least slightly sorry for him?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 2nd July 2009 08:01)

Also, this whole "MJ had no childhood" argument is lame. Sure, his father beat him, but I have to give a big "so what?" here. I know plenty of children who were raised in homes were breaking the rules meant getting slapped upside the head. They've all grown up just fine. In MJ's case, as a result of his Father, he became a multi-millionaire and one of the world's best selling artists. I don't see tragedy there whatsoever.

Well, as somebody who probably falls into the category of "abused child" (and I'll spare you the details because it's private and I don't need sympathy) I like to think I turned out relatively normal in spite of that. So I see your point. At the same time, my personal experience informs my opinion about Michael Jackson.

There's no excusing what he did, if he did it (and again, I fall into the camp that thinks he probably did). But I also think it's much more tragic that people who commit child abuse ultimately turn out to have been abused children themselves. I believe in personal responsibility, but you can't find cures if you don't diagnose cause, and there is an undeniable tragedy in the vicious cycle that is child abuse. If that means nothing to you and your attitude is still "so what?" then I'm thankful you have probably not had the same experience, and sorry that you lack the empathy to understand it from the perspective of someone who has.

Michael Jackson is a living embodiment of that, and his fame probably only exacerbated the situation, because most victims who heal are able to do so in private zones of comfort, something I don't think he ever had. I also don't mind mourning the waste of talent, because I think it's a shame such talent ultimately did turn to waste. Let's also not forget that while we are "mourning" the loss of talent, that was ultimately the result of his child abuse manifesting as well.

I'm not saying that one's upbringing and environment has no effect on one's development, but to claim that Michael Jackson's behavior was entirely due to the way his father treated him as a child is simply ridiculous. It's dehumanizing, and falls under a dangerous concept which is becoming far too widespread: the belief that no one is responsible for their own actions. It's always someone else's fault. It's the same kind of thinking that causes people who do ridiculously stupid things to immediately look around for someone to sue.

Look, it's quite simple. Michael Jackson was a pretty sick and disturbed person in more than a few ways. Yes, we should feel sorry for him to some extent, but that doesn't excuse his behavior and lifestyle. Plenty of people have gone through far worse and turned out just fine.

He was also an extremely talented entertainer. I was never very fond of his music personally, but I recognize talent when I see it, and he was an amazing singer, dancer, and performer. That being said, one should not allow that to cloud one's judgement. Just because the man made some good music and entertained a bunch of people doesn't make him some kind of saint.

So let's not remember Micahel Jackson as this thing or that, as a horrible person or the greatest person to ever live, but just as he was. I'm not demonizing him, and I'm not trying to make him out to be some perfect, wonderful human being, because neither is the truth. He was what he was. Is that so hard?

Quote (Reod Dai @ 2nd July 2009 22:03)

I'm not saying that one's upbringing and environment has no effect on one's development, but to claim that Michael Jackson's behavior was entirely due to the way his father treated him as a child is simply ridiculous.  It's dehumanizing, and falls under a dangerous concept which is becoming far too widespread:  the belief that no one is responsible for their own actions.  It's always someone else's fault.  It's the same kind of thinking that causes people who do ridiculously stupid things to immediately look around for someone to sue.

It's not as simple as that. I know what you mean, it is ridiculous when someone excuses their own actions by blaming somebody else, but it's not always the case. If a child's father throws litter in the street and hits anyone who asks them to pick it up, the child could potentially do the same. What's the point in blaming the child? If that's what they've been exposed to then that's how they act. Remember that we learn the most as a child, so you can't just dismiss the consequences of his upbringing.

Everyone deals with things in different ways. It's like I said before, I thought MJ was really weak and overly self-conscious. I don't blame him for it that's just the way he is, and the way he turned out. Like in my girlfriend's previous marriage and MMB's case (I hope you don't mind my saying), you can't usually tell whether someone is a victim, present or past. It's like DF said, people do turn out alright on the surface. MJ was just more susceptible to it for whatever reason, and it damaged him permanently outside and in. It does strike a chord for me and it's not something for people to trivialise.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Press ruined the man's life. Well, I suppose the allegations of rape didn't do him a lot of good either.

Moderator Edit

No good reason to blast out the old F-bomb here, is there? -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 4th July 2009 02:13

Quote (mertinatron @ 3rd July 2009 21:51)

Press ruined the man's life. Well, I suppose the allegations of rape didn't do him a lot of good either.

Oh I think it's what killed him. He devoted his life to helping children, and when thr trials took that away, and he had to sell Neverland, it broke his heart. Lus, his medical problems included made him a sad man with a weakened body and spirit.

This post has been edited by Neal on 4th July 2009 15:28

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Praise Be To Helix!

Um lets not forget that just because you suffer doesn't mean you should do the same to others.

If your dad slapped you around then wouldn't you want your child to have a better life and try to further yourself away from being like your old man?

He should have taken in the good with the bad.Yes the prostitution thing was screwed up,not much you can do but creating excuses for your past trauma isn't going to solve the problem.

Moderator Edit

Like two posts above, there's no reason to pound out the f-bomb.

This post has been edited by Neal on 7th July 2009 02:20

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.