Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display...4/23/mac_users/

Market research proves that people who use Macs really are like the Mac guy from the commercials. At least the American ones, though I'd be willing to guess that the Mitchell and Webb UK version isn't much different.

Really, though, is anyone shocked by this? I find it hard to deal with Mac junkies without wanting to hit them.

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

i have a mac mini, but im not like that. i use to have a pc, but it broke, so i have my mac now...

--------------------

Aujourdhui a commence avec toi.

We didn't need a news article to tell us that! I don't even know what it is about Macs that make people turn into such pretentious douchebags, but it uncannily happens nearly every time someone buys a Mac. Last time I checked, owning one didn't sign you up for any elite clubs or benefit you in any really significant way. I'm with you though, it's really hard to take these Mac types seriously, especially without the intense desire to smack them upside the head with a large, heavy, blunt object.

Oh well.

--------------------

Okay, but there was a goat!

Haha, that's quite funny.
I've only ever known one person who owns a Mac.
I must admit, he is a bit like the guy in the advert.

Poor bloke.

--------------------

'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

It's just Apple in general I feel. iPhone? iPod? iMac? iDontcare what it is, if you bought at least one of all three, you're still a pretentious bag of douche that makes JJ Abrams look like a modest and normal person.

N.B you must have purchased all three devices in at least one model and must have never acknowledged that it has little benefits over other similar devices on the market to qualify for your free bag of pretentious douche.

This post has been edited by Del S on 24th April 2008 20:30

--------------------

"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

I personally don't like macs, and really I find it sad that the majority of mac users can't think for them selves.

--------------------

"You know that feeling you get when you're on a merry go 'round, and you want to jump off to make the spinning stop, but you know it'll suck when you land? I feel like that all the time"- Keno

"I stab my girl until I fall down"
-Yukari
Do you like Horny Bunnies?

I never liked macs and I don't really see what all the fuss is about. I do like my ipod but I wouldn't say that I'm a pretentious douchebag. Though actually ever since I started working at home, I don't even use my ipod anymore. So maybe that's why.

--------------------

Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

My schools, all the way through, use Macs for everything because they get a discount on the computers. Of course, buying Mac-versions of Windows programs, more expensively, sort of cancels it out..

I have been using "Appleworks" since I was 7 years old.

please god help me

--------------------

Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
FFVI
FFVII
FFIX
FFX
FF Tactics: Advance 2
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest 8
Dragon Quest 11
Super Mario RPG

macs are really good. i only buy em cause they are very good for doing lots of stuff like games n such. my friend was bashing on them the other day and he said limewire suks cause it screws up your computer. i dont know what he was talking about cause i have limewire up all the time (infact right now!) and my computer never lags.

He said pcs are better because bill gates is rich. wow thats just a stupid thing to say.
so i think this argument can go both ways cause there are some sweet pcs out there.

I've owned about five computers my life. After complaining to my tech savvy friends about problems with viruses, windows operating slow as hell after a few months ownership, and PCs generally breaking down a stupid amount, they kept telling me buy a Mac. I was resistant at first, but enough of them gave me that advice that I broke down and did it. Have had a Mac for two years now with no problems to report.

Frankly, I love it. By this time of ownership with my PCs, Windows would be running crazy slow. My Mac still operates at high speed. Because it doesn't open .exe files, I haven't had a single problem with viruses. And with Boot Camp, you can also use Windows, not that I know why you would except for compatibility problems. Most of my friends use it for graphic design and music stuff, but for me its just been less headache. If that makes me a pretentious douchebag, so be it. But unless someone can honestly explain to me the technical benefits of PC, I see absolutely no reason to go backwards just to be more "normal."

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 24th April 2008 20:58)

I've owned about five computers my life.  After complaining to my tech savvy friends about problems with viruses, windows operating slow as hell after a few months ownership, and PCs generally breaking down a stupid amount, they kept telling me buy a Mac.  I was resistant at first, but enough of them gave me that advice that I broke down and did it.  Have had a Mac for two years now with no problems to report.

Frankly, I love it.  By this time of ownership with my PCs, Windows would be running crazy slow.  My Mac still operates at high speed.  Because it doesn't open .exe files, I haven't had a single problem with viruses.  And with Boot Camp, you can also use Windows, not that I know why you would except for compatibility problems.  Most of my friends use it for graphic design and music stuff, but for me its just been less headache.  If that makes me a pretentious douchebag, so be it.  But unless someone can honestly explain to me the technical benefits of PC, I see absolutely no reason to go backwards just to be more "normal."

what i dont get is why MAC users always say the same thing "windows is slow after a while" "windows lags and crashes"

ive used windows since my first computer (had Windows 95!) and ive NEVER had problems with this. dell, gateway, compaq, HP, and now i use all custom built. never had problems. ever.

if people would do routine checks and maintainence they wouldnt be bitching after 2 months or so...

its like owning a car. if you dont take care of it, it will break down and leave your dumb ass stranded!

the second PC i ever owned was sitting on my desk with NO case, NO fans, etc. just the mobo and PS and cd drive sitting there. ran PERFECT for about a year till i upgraded. and i do a good bit of 3d graphics and i DL quite a bit of stuff. not to mention multitasking out the ass...

i just dont get people

This post has been edited by jacemm7283 on 25th April 2008 02:38

--------------------

"Life: The deepest cut that wilt not heal. Fore it bleeds on and on as if an eternity. An endless river of blood in which death is thyne only escape. And as the tainted years pass, that escape muddles us with temptation."

Uh...OK. Well, for all the talk of Mac users being pretentious, I've never felt the need to call PC users "doucebags" or "dumbasses," and I don't get so emotional about it that I need frowny faces and rolley eyes. I frankly don't understand what people are so worked up about. If your PC works fine, good for you. Go to it, bro, don't let the evil Mac cult stop you. But I personally took care of my PCs just fine, and they would still run slow after a couple of months. As for the car analogy, maybe your '95 Civic works fine when you take care of it, but give me a choice of that or a new ferrari and I'll tear off on the road if I can. I'm not a techie by any means, but my Mac just works better for me than any of my PCs did. If you're a PC person, great, but no need to get a complex about it.

Now, back to people that can, like, capitalize and spell out coherent sentences. Josh, in all honesty, you are a webmaster and I expect you have a greater knowledge of computers than I do. I know you've had problems with Macs before, and I'm just curious why. Is it just that you feel Mac users go around flaunting hardware superiority that you feel isn't warranted, or do you honestly feel PCs are just better machines? I'd be curious to hear legitimate, technical answers on this, because on a personal level my Mac has given me much less headache than any of my PCs. It seems less susceptible to viruses and breakdowns. Again, I'm not a techie, but as a software novice it seems like the more durable hardware to me.

I honestly don't see why all PC users hate Macs and all Mac users hate PC's. It's like Coke and Pepsi; they're both almost identical but people always find a way to like one a lot more than the other. I have both a Mac and a PC, and I use both a lot. Sure, there are some pros and cons to both, but in the end their pretty much the same, save the fact that Macs don't have access to some games that I enjoy. And I also disagree with the people who say that owning anything "Apple" makes the person a pretentious douchebag. Just because you buy a product that you enjoy using doesn't mean that you're a douchebag.

It's not that owning anything Apple makes you a douchebag (though statistically speaking there's probably 75% chance of being a slight douche, but hey, 75% of the populace are douchebags already) it's buying anything Apple simply BECAUSE is it Apple and then ignoring the fact it's nothing special that makes you a moron. Apple more or less IS the same as a PC now and that's the problem: It's the same but it costs more. An iPod is just an MP3 player with glitter, an iPhone is just a phone that can do er what every phone since 2004 has been able to, and an iMac is just a computer. That is nearly impossible to upgrade. And is used by terrorists on 24.

So there you go. You support Apple, you support Fictional Terrorism. FICTIONAL. TERRORISM. You want 9/11 times 2356? Keep supporting FICTIONAL TERRORISM.

Damn commies. Never understand a joke... Bet they'll miss the jokes in this post too...

This post has been edited by Del S on 25th April 2008 11:36

--------------------

"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 25th April 2008 00:26)

Now, back to people that can, like, capitalize and spell out coherent sentences. Josh, in all honesty, you are a webmaster and I expect you have a greater knowledge of computers than I do.  I know you've had problems with Macs before, and I'm just curious why.  Is it just that you feel Mac users go around flaunting hardware superiority that you feel isn't warranted, or do you honestly feel PCs are just better machines?  I'd be curious to hear legitimate, technical answers on this, because on a personal level my Mac has given me much less headache than any of my PCs.  It seems less susceptible to viruses and breakdowns.  Again, I'm not a techie, but as a software novice it seems like the more durable hardware to me.

Honestly, I don't feel that Macs are better machines, but then, I don't necessarily feel that Windows boxes are either. Heck, frankly, I don't even think that all Mac users feel superior. However, it is one of those stereotypes that, when you see it in action, really does ring true; the point of the Marketplace story, to me, is that it's pretty amusing how both sides of the divide seem to see Mac users the same way - it's just that one side thinks that view should be positive, and the other doesn't.

Anecdotally, I really don't have much against Macs per se. They are a perfectly adequate way of computing, if you can handle the barriers to entry, and actually want a Mac because you feel that it will improve your computing experience and not just because they're awesome. I used a Mac for my first professional 9-to-5 web job (internship) in University, and while I feel it did hamper my productivity somewhat, it did the job well overall. Heck, my best friend (not Tiddles, I'm talking offline here) owns no fewer than three Macs plus the one he uses at the office, and I still talk to him. Of course, when we first met, he did need a little beating up because his education taught him that Windows PCs were weak - it was when I started helping him out with graphic design during a busy time at work - by using a $600 Dell PC - that he started to come around.

Here are the main issues I have with Macs and their users:
1. There are simply too many of them who do act like Mac guy, as if they should feel sorry for people who run Windows boxes. More specifics on that later.
2. Apple locks down their distribution chains pretty significantly, to the point where you essentially are forced to deal with the Apple cadre in order to repair or upgrade anything in your computer. This is finally starting to slack up a bit, now, to the point where you can get parts from more and more retailers, but they'll still cost you more than a PC equivalent in many cases.
3. Their encroachment into the Windows software arena is generally poor. Yes, everyone uses iTunes on their PCs, because they all have iPods - and, as an iPod owner, I live with it because iPods really are the finest digital music players on the market. But at the least, it's not user-friendly to port a UI meant for one OS into another, completely different one; at worst, it's an intentional attempt to force their own way of thinking onto people who don't want it. iTunes is an insane piece of bloatware on the Windows platform. Don't even get me started on Safari. I have it installed because it's easier to test web pages on Safari without having to buy a Mac, but it is quite simply the worst Windows browser I've ever used, and that includes Internet Explorer 5.0 and up.
4. Apple still tries to present itself, and does so with the backing of many an old-time user, as the only possible computer of choice for all things creative. Coming from a creative background due to my undergraduate work, my first job out of undergrad, and all the work I've done on the web, I've met way too many people who believe that just because Photoshop, Illustrator, and Quark started life on the Mac, that the Mac is the only place you can do that kind of work. Nowadays, you get the same vibe from video and audio editors. It's just not true - PC users can do the same things as Mac users can, on PCs that cost at times a thousand dollars or more less to set up than a generally equivalent Mac.
5. Apple's new tack toward technology is curious. Use of Intel processors? Ability to dualboot OSX and WinXP via BootCamp? To me, that almost says that they know that they're overcharging for something that's just not as useful overall, and their response is to make their machines more like Wintel boxes. Good for them, but it's nothing more than a PR stunt unless you're a user that has a legitimate requirement to have both handy. If I want a Windows PC, I'll spend a ton less money and get one that runs it natively, thanks.

This is not to say that you don't raise good points, MMB. For now and for the near future, you needn't worry about viruses being a big problem. Same way people who used Firefox prior to version 1 didn't have to worry about security holes. However, if OSX continues to build market share, again, just like Firefox, there will come a day where it will become an issue. It's the nature of the world.

It's hard for me to address the issues that some people might have with PCs, in terms of keeping them running well, but that is because I would probably have to be considered moreso a power user than your average Windows user. I can say that the only PC-related problems I have had in the last year are due to horrible software that NBA IT has installed on my work laptop, and the fact that I'm cheap and sometimes buy cheap hardware when I know I shouldn't. Software issues are of no concern, either, as long as you're selective about what you install (usually). Yeah, there are more programs in the Windows arena that crash, or leave problems when you uninstall them, but that's due to software developers as much or more than it is due to Windows. You don't see it as much on Mac due to the fact that fewer people develop for Mac OS - it's nothing more than a matter of scale.

This is a lot of writing in response to something I posted really just as a bit of a lark, but I think it's a good discussion to have. I'm all for people's decision to choose whatever kind of machine they want to use for home computing, as long as it will let them post at CoN, chat in #narshe, and buy from AmaCoN. But if there's anyone who I can convince, that might realize they don't necessarily need to spend extra cash to get a computer that will meet their needs, then all the better.

And, finally, two more anecdotes on which to close.
1. I will probably be interviewing soon for a new job. I'm almost certain it will have me using a Mac every day if I get it.
2. I still want a Mac Mini really bad. Maybe two. Why? One that could be used as an media server in my living room, and one for this.

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 24th April 2008 23:26)

Uh...OK.  Well, for all the talk of Mac users being pretentious, I've never felt the need to call PC users "doucebags" or "dumbasses," and I don't get so emotional about it that I need frowny faces and rolley eyes.   I frankly don't understand what people are so worked up about.  If your PC works fine, good for you.  Go to it, bro, don't let the evil Mac cult stop you.  But I personally took care of my PCs just fine, and they would still run slow after a couple of months.  As for the car analogy, maybe your '95 Civic works fine when you take care of it, but give me a choice of that or a new ferrari and I'll tear off on the road if I can.  I'm not a techie by any means, but my Mac just works better for me than any of my PCs did.  If you're a PC person, great, but no need to get a complex about it.

1st of all, i dont own a 95 civic. 2nd of all, im not here to spell correctly and use perfect punctuation. 3rdly, ive never felt the need to bash on mac users. i just think its funny they all say the same thing. like theyre using a better technology or some BS. its like they are soo much better because they use something different and not paying bill gates.

and as far as the ferrari goes, a 95 civic will outlive it bay YEARS AND YEARS. i guarentee thet you will either a. blow it up, or b.) wreck the damn thing if you dont do routine maintainence on it as well.just because its a ferrari, doesnt mean it will last forever. the same thing goes for your mac. it will eventually die. and while youre buying a new one, ill just replace the problem part on mine! so you go waste your money, and ill save mine.

seems like i hit a soft spot with you MetroidMorphBall. why so defemsive?

This post has been edited by jacemm7283 on 25th April 2008 14:33

--------------------

"Life: The deepest cut that wilt not heal. Fore it bleeds on and on as if an eternity. An endless river of blood in which death is thyne only escape. And as the tainted years pass, that escape muddles us with temptation."

Quote (jacemm7283 @ 25th April 2008 07:27)

seems like i hit a soft spot with you MetroidMorphBall. why so defemsive?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but between you two, you are definitely the one that sounds more defensive.

I hate Macs with a passion that have nothing to do with tech issues. Bastards are just impossible for me to understand cause I been using Windows for so long. I don't get in a grab about it, I just leave 'em be. It seems to be the majority issue for my hick area. We don cotton to the whethers 'n why-fors, if we can't figure it, **** it.

This post has been edited by Narratorway on 25th April 2008 14:43

--------------------

Arts

Farts

Twarts

Quote (jacemm7283 @ 25th April 2008 10:27)

seems like i hit a soft spot with you MetroidMorphBall. why so defemsive?

I have to agree with NP on that one, it does seem like you're getting a bit defensive and probably taking MMB a bit out of context. He certainly never said he wanted a Ferrari because you don't have to take care of it; his reasoning was that all other things being equal, the odds are you'll have to do LESS work over time on the Ferrari, not that you'll have to do NONE. And I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to imply that you drive a Civic, God forbid, eh?

There's probably also some point that he is intentionally or not making about the difference in style, but I don't think that matters.

And, just since it's come up, well, we do try to encourage people to write as properly as they know how while they're here. It's just polite. But it's certainly nothing to fight about for anyone.

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

It really is the perceived attitude of what you might call the "Mac community" that gets me. (And I say that specifically so that I don't tar all Mac users with the same brush! There are plenty of sensible folks with them too).

A key point here goes back to what Josh was saying about the move to x86 architecture. For years, Steve Jobs and the Mac community at large harped on about how much more powerful their CPUs were than x86 technology. Then Apple moves to the same thing and suddenly everything is a lot faster. How weird. Was the whole community deliberately misleading everyone else the whole time? No, they got swept up in Jobs' hype and spread it around without questioning it.

But it's not just the unjustified hype: it's the fact that the official advertising (along with some vocal "community" folks) are determined to define the machines in terms of how superior they're supposed to be to Windows. Seriously, how about you advertise what you can do rather than what somebody else supposedly can't (but almost certainly can with additional, likely free software)?

And yeah, the security thing swings both ways. It's really nothing to do with not running .exe files per se; it's the fact that nobody writes Mac viruses because it's a miserably small attack vector. Let's not forget that the moment Safari was ported to Windows, a slew of critical security bugs suddenly surfaced, due to the user base doubling to twelve. (Hur hur hur just kidding on numbers - it was twenty! (Hur hur hur.))

Quote (jacemm7283 @ 25th April 2008 06:27)

seems like i hit a soft spot with you MetroidMorphBall. why so defemsive?

Not really, dude. I was just surprised by your passionate criticism, complete with all caps, exclamation points, and emoticons. And no, I don't think you actually drive a civic (I'm not sure how I'd know that) I meant "you" in the general third person. R51 basically summed up the metaphor.

Quote (Rangers51 @ 25th April 2008 04:30)

Here are the main issues I have with Macs and their users: /snip

I think you and Tiddles raise some really good points. I completely agree with you about Safari and never use it, Firefox is loads better. And to be honest, I still don't understand having a single click for the touchpad outside of tradition, but like other things Mac you get used to it. Finally, the distribution chain is a pain, as getting part replacements requires going to the God-forsaken Mac stores and dealing with their "geniuses," but as you point out this is also relaxing.

As for point 5, though, I think what it comes down to is Apple realized their products were missing out on a huge market because of lack of Windows compatibility. I don't think it was as much a superiority issue as it was a "if we want to sell these things we have to make sure computer users can use everyday products on our machines." And I think it worked. Remember when home computers meant those old Apple green screens? Then what happened, no one heard about Apple anymore until 5 years ago. Now they have such a presence on the market that people feel the need to debate over the product and its douchebag users (and I knew you were joking, Del). So, all in all I think their strategy worked.

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 25th April 2008 15:24)

As for point 5, though, I think what it comes down to is Apple realized their products were missing out on a huge market because of lack of Windows compatibility.

I would love to see numbers on how many Mac users are willing to buy a new license for Windows when there's already a functional OS on the box, or even failing that, how many users actually used that as their primary or secondary reason for buying a Mac in the first place. While what you say might be true, I don't think that they're really being helped by it; at least, it wouldn't sway me when I could build an actual Windows PC for a ton less anyway. Or buy a Dell.

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Yeah, true. But I meant less in terms of actual Windows and more in the sense that many Windows related products now work on the OSX interface. I think that's gone a long way in enticing people, including those who want both that and the Mac exclusive gadgets. Either way I don't have statistics, but you have to admit Apple was off the radar until iPod and Macbook.

Quote (jacemm7283 @ 25th April 2008 06:27)

just because its a ferrari, doesnt mean it will last forever. the same thing goes for your mac. it will eventually die. and while youre buying a new one, ill just replace the problem part on mine! so you go waste your money, and ill save mine.

Had a brief afterthought on this. Even though I admit that going to the Mac store is a bit of a pain, I have to add I've spent a grand total of $0 for replacement parts in the two years I've owned a Mac. People I know who've had technical problems got it replaced under the protection plan, and if you don't have that you can still get it repaired without having to buy a new one. And going to Mac places is getting easier, w/ places like Best Buy now having repair shops.

I'm about maxed out on this thread, but might pop back in later if something new and interesting is said. But basically I think it comes down to preference. A lot of people I know buy Macs for graphic design and what not, but I believe R51 when he says it's unnecessary. For me, it's just that a Mac has been more durable than any of my PCs, and that's been a good enough reason for me to hang onto it.

Quote (Rangers51 @ 25th April 2008 20:31)

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 25th April 2008 15:24)

As for point 5, though, I think what it comes down to is Apple realized their products were missing out on a huge market because of lack of Windows compatibility.

I would love to see numbers on how many Mac users are willing to buy a new license for Windows when there's already a functional OS on the box, or even failing that, how many users actually used that as their primary or secondary reason for buying a Mac in the first place. While what you say might be true, I don't think that they're really being helped by it; at least, it wouldn't sway me when I could build an actual Windows PC for a ton less anyway. Or buy a Dell.

In fairness, it has opened things up to the point that, when I occasionally think I might want a laptop for some reason, I actually do consider the Macbook among the options. Then I remember that laptops cost silly money for poor performance and that I really don't go anywhere very often. It's probably also a view that stems as much as anything from being an enthusiast, and a machine that runs an operating system I can't get elsewhere appeals for the novelty value, as long as I can run the one I already use too.

One of the main technical points that actually puts me off a Mac is that they don't have a UK keyboard layout that matches the standard UK PC keyboard layout; it's more like the US version. That would probably be fine for a new user, or someone who uses less punctuation (I was the only one among my Uni housemates who was any good at the punctuation bit on Typing of the Dead) but I'm rather attached to where all the buttons live! In particular, not having backslash in the bottom left always drives me crazy on US-themed keyboards.

It's certainly true that you see more Mac ports of Windows now than you used to, though, presumably due to the common hardware architecture. How well tuned those are to the different interface, I couldn't say, but I only hope they do better than Apple's own software for Windows.

Quote (Rangers51 @ 25th April 2008 16:31)

Quote (MetroidMorphBall @ 25th April 2008 15:24)

As for point 5, though, I think what it comes down to is Apple realized their products were missing out on a huge market because of lack of Windows compatibility.

I would love to see numbers on how many Mac users are willing to buy a new license for Windows when there's already a functional OS on the box, or even failing that, how many users actually used that as their primary or secondary reason for buying a Mac in the first place. While what you say might be true, I don't think that they're really being helped by it; at least, it wouldn't sway me when I could build an actual Windows PC for a ton less anyway. Or buy a Dell.

It's always a telling sign the moment someone points out that they can build an 'equivalent' PC to a Mac for cheaper. When they say that, it's a sign to me that not only are you not in the target market, you don't actually appreciate any of the perceived benefits of owning Macs.

There are many things that can't be built with off the shelf parts. Subjective ideals such as aesthetics. Project engineering goals such as size or weight. Legal roadblocks preventing you from running proprietary software. Or my favourite, technology that just isn't mainstream enough to be purchased and supported (multitouch).

And this is all before adding in the cost of one's own time. Time for maintenance, time for support, time to learn, time to troubleshoot. My time is extremely valuable. If you find pleasure in building your own system and burning well over a day just to learn, spec, purchase, build, install, and then harden your own PC... well, I'm glad you have a fun hobby.

Maybe some people would like their computer to be more of an appliance, and are willing to pay the premium so that they don't have to learn anything extra to keep it maintained?

--------------------

Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Quote (Elessar @ 26th April 2008 10:48)

It's always a telling sign the moment someone points out that they can build an 'equivalent' PC to a Mac for cheaper. When they say that, it's a sign to me that not only are you not in the target market, you don't actually appreciate any of the perceived benefits of owning Macs.

There are many things that can't be built with off the shelf parts. Subjective ideals such as aesthetics. Project engineering goals such as size or weight. Legal roadblocks preventing you from running proprietary software. Or my favourite, technology that just isn't mainstream enough to be purchased and supported (multitouch).

And this is all before adding in the cost of one's own time. Time for maintenance, time for support, time to learn, time to troubleshoot. My time is extremely valuable. If you find pleasure in building your own system and burning well over a day just to learn, spec, purchase, build, install, and then harden your own PC... well, I'm glad you have a fun hobby.

Maybe some people would like their computer to be more of an appliance, and are willing to pay the premium so that they don't have to learn anything extra to keep it maintained?

Oh, I'd say I'm quite in their target market, really, or at least one of their primary ones. Under thirty, significant household income, fashion-conscious (in most cases, anyway!), and with a self-image of being a creative thinker and/or working with creative projects regularly. But that just goes to show that no company really hits all of its target market no matter what, not really apropos to anything specific to this discussion. Whether I can appreciate the benefits or not is a subjective evaluation; I would say I can appreciate the goals but don't feel that they meet them - you would say that I don't recognize them for what they are. We both might be right.

Aside from that, I don't disagree with your points at all, nor MMB, nor even Tiddles, even though he and I argue such topics over and over and over again nearly every day. I fear that through the course of this thread, it's become nothing more than an "R51 hates Apple and you should too!" sort of discussion, when it's not meant to be that at all. I've considered purchasing both Mac desktops and laptops both for myself and my wife over the last couple years, but at the end of the day, I choose not to for reasons I've detailed above. I was even going to build a Wintel PC inside a modified Mac case for my latest machine, until that fell through for reasons of time and other lack of progress (I suppose that speaks to your point of aesthetics - I LOVE Mac chassis work). Might still do it for Climmy at some point, just to say I have.

Bottom line, we both know that your question at the end of your post is purely rhetorical - of course, many, if not most people, want a PC that is problem free, just as they want a dishwasher or TV that is the same. And if that's worth the premium to them, more power to them, I certainly wouldn't scoff at that. I scoff at the people who fall right into line with the very, very first line of this thread.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 26th April 2008 16:32

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Elessar)

Maybe some people would like their computer to be more of an appliance, and are willing to pay the premium so that they don't have to learn anything extra to keep it maintained?

Quote (Rangers51)

Or buy a Dell.

OK, I have no experience to say whether as a Dell owner you need more support than a Mac owner, or as to how good that support is. And OK, a lot of the perceived problems with PCs come from the way that cheaper models in particular are burdened with lousy trialware that causes no end of problems just to subsidise the cost of the hardware. The fact remains that you can buy better hardware than a Mac for less than a Mac. It's really not about system building.

Although, of course, Apple could expand their marketshare if you could build a homebrew machine and install Mac OS on it. I don't think they will, though - another factor in Mac OS being perceived as more stable is that it only has to deal with a very restricted selection of hardware possibilities. Many problems with Windows installations can be traced to poor quality third party drivers. It's easy to look good when you don't have to deal with control pad drivers that will blue-screen your system if you move the adapter too much. (This happens to me.)

Aesthetics, though? Doesn't that slightly contradict the "just an appliance" point anyway: appliance or visual focal point? In any case, for a homebuilt desktop machine, you only need to buy one part for aesthetic reasons, and that's the case - and there are loads of fine examples out there, even Mac ripoffs if you so choose.

It's not like Apple is streets ahead on size or weight, either, from what I've seen - don't forget that pretty much every laptop is necessarily carefully designed because of the small factor, it's just that Apple shouts a bit more about theirs.

(Also, hardening PCs is for little girls.)

This post has been edited by Tiddles on 26th April 2008 18:47

Too many difficult words for my limited little danish vocabulary.

I do have something to say though - i don't own any Mac computers, but if i were to buy one, a big factor would be supporting a company that is slowly gaining market from microsoft, thus giving them more competition.

In the world of computers aswell as anything else, competition leads to better prices and better products for the computers. consumers!!



This post has been edited by Ganolink on 27th April 2008 08:42

--------------------

All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Broccoli to die.

Come on Rangers51. Stop being so agreeable. It cramps my self-important pretentious style.

Quote (Rangers51)

Bottom line, we both know that your question at the end of your post is purely rhetorical - of course, many, if not most people, want a PC that is problem free, just as they want a dishwasher or TV that is the same. And if that's worth the premium to them, more power to them, I certainly wouldn't scoff at that. I scoff at the people who fall right into line with the very, very first line of this thread.

I'm too young to remember the days when every teenager could (and did) fix their own cars, and for some to go the full mile and strip the entire thing down to the frame and then rebuild from scratch. Nowadays, the only thing I hear from that industry is that computer chips are preventing mechanics from servicing certain brands of cars entering the shop.

Computers are starting to move towards that phase as well. I wonder what a technology enthusiast will move onto next. Mr. Fusion?

Quote (Tiddles @ 26th April 2008 14:46)

OK, I have no experience to say whether as a Dell owner you need more support than a Mac owner, or as to how good that support is.  And OK, a lot of the perceived problems with PCs come from the way that cheaper models in particular are burdened with lousy trialware that causes no end of problems just to subsidise the cost of the hardware.  The fact remains that you can buy better hardware than a Mac for less than a Mac.  It's really not about system building.

Knowing that the 'problem' with your PC is due to trialware requires significant investment in understanding computers by itself, and then further work necessary to actually remove or reinstall from scratch, as well as the research to deck out the system with the proper software to put it into a steady-state. And from my experience in using Dells at work for the past four years, being willing to sink a full-work day into reinstalling (and updating, and updating, and updating) your fresh Dell laptop from the factory is a must. Otherwise, Windows rot sets in quickly and you'll end up filing helpdesk tickets for the next year trying to get VPN running.

Buying better hardware for a Mac for less than a Mac? Again, comparing off-the-shelf components requires ignoring a lot of the other goals that go into the project engineering. It's also a flawed analysis, similar to how Intel spread the megahertz myth and had people comparing on a single statistic.

Quote (Tiddles @ 26th April 2008 14:46)

Although, of course, Apple could expand their marketshare if you could build a homebrew machine and install Mac OS on it.  I don't think they will, though - another factor in Mac OS being perceived as more stable is that it only has to deal with a very restricted selection of hardware possibilities.  Many problems with Windows installations can be traced to poor quality third party drivers.  It's easy to look good when you don't have to deal with control pad drivers that will blue-screen your system if you move the adapter too much.  (This happens to me.)

I wish that Apple would try to expand their marketshare, but they seem to be happy making a tidy profit and keeping up their reputation(or reality distortion field). It's not a bad place to be. Look at how Nintendo does its thing.

Anyhow, the blame can go where it may. The perception is that the PC's are less stable. "If OSX ran on as many configurations as Windows, it would also be unstable" isn't much of an argument, since OSX does restrict its configuration and does an admirable job on that set of hardware.

How well has Vista-certified PC's done? Oh right, a class-action lawsuit...

Quote (Tiddles @ 26th April 2008 14:46)

Aesthetics, though?  Doesn't that slightly contradict the "just an appliance" point anyway: appliance or visual focal point?

O.o

I can't be the only one that bought a new fridge that actually looked good in addition to doing its job (of cooling my food, efficiently).

Quote (Tiddles @ 26th April 2008 14:46)

In any case, for a homebuilt desktop machine, you only need to buy one part for aesthetic reasons, and that's the case - and there are loads of fine examples out there, even Mac ripoffs if you so choose.

It's not like Apple is streets ahead on size or weight, either, from what I've seen - don't forget that pretty much every laptop is necessarily carefully designed because of the small factor, it's just that Apple shouts a bit more about theirs.

If Apple was alone in making things that look good, are light and small, then the world would seriously suck. However, they are pushing the competition into putting some serious coin into system miniaturization. Reversing the trend of crappy Dell "desktop-replacement" laptops makes me happy in the pants.

Quote (Tiddles @ 26th April 2008 14:46)

(Also, hardening PCs is for little girls.)

--------------------

Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Quote (Elessar)

Quote (Tiddles)

OK, I have no experience to say whether as a Dell owner you need more support than a Mac owner, or as to how good that support is.  And OK, a lot of the perceived problems with PCs come from the way that cheaper models in particular are burdened with lousy trialware that causes no end of problems just to subsidise the cost of the hardware.  The fact remains that you can buy better hardware than a Mac for less than a Mac.  It's really not about system building.

Knowing that the 'problem' with your PC is due to trialware requires significant investment in understanding computers by itself, and then further work necessary to actually remove or reinstall from scratch, as well as the research to deck out the system with the proper software to put it into a steady-state. And from my experience in using Dells at work for the past four years, being willing to sink a full-work day into reinstalling (and updating, and updating, and updating) your fresh Dell laptop from the factory is a must. Otherwise, Windows rot sets in quickly and you'll end up filing helpdesk tickets for the next year trying to get VPN running.

I'm not saying anyone should have to know about it. I'm saying it should stop. It's a bad situation but it doesn't make the Mac inherently superior - you can buy the things without crapware.

Quote (Elessar)

Buying better hardware for a Mac for less than a Mac? Again, comparing off-the-shelf components requires ignoring a lot of the other goals that go into the project engineering. It's also a flawed analysis, similar to how Intel spread the megahertz myth and had people comparing on a single statistic.

Those goals are only relevant if you happen to care about any in particular for your needs. (Weight, in particular, is a relatively pointless attribute to anything but a laptop). It's not at all a flawed analysis - get something that does what you want as an individual. (I think half the point of this topic comes from some enthusiasts always insisting that a Mac is best for everyone. I'm not trying to do the opposite here.) And do you seriously believe that off-the-shelf PCs are thrown together from any old cobblers? The only machines left like that are those built by individuals or "mom and pop" PC shops. They may not be exactly "pick of the pops" inside, but it's not like nobody has thought about it.

Quote (Elessar)

Anyhow, the blame can go where it may. The perception is that the PC's are less stable. "If OSX ran on as many configurations as Windows, it would also be unstable" isn't much of an argument, since OSX does restrict its configuration and does an admirable job on that set of hardware.

It's no real argument to the end user (much like the security through obscurity point) but it's a fair argument against Apple's (and its community's) frequent claims that it's all to do with software superiority. Comes back to the same point: it's a matter of horses for courses, not of one system having innate superiority.

Quote (Elessar)

How well has Vista-certified PC's done? Oh right, a class-action lawsuit...

Not that I particularly care to defend Vista, but it has nothing to do with the OS itself, or stability, and everything to do with PCs being missold as Vista capable when they were underpowered for the purpose. I certainly don't care to defend Microsoft's marketing department or the retailers involved but it has nothing to do with software or hardware. (Note there's no lawsuit over "Vista premium ready" specced machines.)

Quote (Elessar)

Quote (Tiddles)

Aesthetics, though?  Doesn't that slightly contradict the "just an appliance" point anyway: appliance or visual focal point?

O.o
I can't be the only one that bought a new fridge that actually looked good in addition to doing its job (of cooling my food, efficiently).

I'm sure you're not. The point is clear though: as soon as you care about that, you no longer want just appliance; there are other goals involved in your purchase. Some of these goals may lean more towards a standard Windows machine, some toward a Mac. That's the point of having a choice.

Quote (Elessar)

Reversing the trend of crappy Dell "desktop-replacement" laptops makes me happy in the pants.

Agreed.

It's about time you cavemen PC users realized how superior we really are.

We obviously noticed it a long time ago, you barbarians.