CoN 25th Anniversary: 1997-2022
Self help?

Posted: 14th April 2008 22:40

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It seems that square is trying to help depressed people with their games. after every final fantasy i've played, they always make a hope speech, telling the value of determination and love. and even in kingdom hearts, they say how the strongest thing in you is your heart. anyone else notice this?

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Posted: 15th April 2008 03:40

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I get what your talking about, but i would say they're not doing that, specifically it's coincidental.

Every FF has it's 'darkest moments' or 'the villain is defeated, but the world is in ruins' kind of moments and they can't just have the characters go on without hope or have their deeds and sacrifice wasted because the world is ruined.

If they're trying to influence us, it's more likely by providing role models through action rather then speeches. Crono from Chrono Trigger never said a word, but is one of the great role models in my life, because of how much he is willing to sacrifice for the sake of the world.

FF6 Spoliers
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A specific example: in the very beginning of the second half of FF6, Celes goes through the 'darkest moment' alone. Atop a seaside cliff, she sees a dying bird and the land dying all around her and tries to commit suicide. But she lives, nursed back to help by a bird (perhaps the same bird as on the cliff?) and finds hope in that. She finds faith that only through helping one another can we save one another, and perhaps even the world.


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Posted: 15th April 2008 03:54

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Play crisis core.

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It has kind of a depressing yet hopeful outcome... I think it might be both the exception and an example depending on how you take it


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Posted: 15th April 2008 06:16

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Dunno how many RPGs you've played, bro, but "using the power of the heart" and "believing in yourself overcomes anything" are all sappy, commonplace themes found throughout the genre. The same goes for the rallying speech about doing one's best, never giving up, overcoming obstacles, etc. 'Fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find an RPG that lacks these qualities. So while it may somewhat lessen the impact of FF games' messages, the 'problem' extends a lot further than just that series.

To be honest, when I entered this thread, I thought it was going to be about Kefka's self-help manual line...

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Posted: 17th April 2008 23:04

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Quote (Shotgunnova @ 15th April 2008 06:16)
To be honest, when I entered this thread, I thought it was going to be about Kefka's self-help manual line...

I thought so too.

I agree that it's just coincidental. Most fantasy stories have the same format.

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Posted: 17th April 2008 23:50

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Most of my D&D campaigns end in unhappy ways...maybe there's something wrong with me
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Posted: 19th April 2008 14:23

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I don't think it's coincidental; it's more of a matter of plot and characterization.

In English classes throughout my life, there's always been talk of a "turning point" (aka climax) in written literature. It doesn't just apply to plots in books, I find. It applies to anything with a plot. These turning points are described as a points in a story where nothing can remain the same.

Most of these games have plots where things, y'know, aren't looking so good. The evil starts to take over and have more control. Usually , the character that will soon induce the cliche speech of hope and stuff will begin to get irritated or angry, and then, in an attempt at fighting back, they will deliver said dialogue. This is where the turning point is (or, at least, not soon after), because the protagonist will realize that they should have hope, and then will gain power.

Of course, this dialogue doesn't have to change the whole game, but turn the tables in a scene or in a part of one.

It's not coincidence. I would assume that the people who create games have no idea how to develop different climaxes or know how to change a character without it being too cliche. Then again, these types of things are important in the fantasy genre.

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Posted: 19th April 2008 18:00

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The fantasy genre and other stories seem to always have dark points before the climax of the story. They help make the resolution better. That's common in nearly every type of story. Both Star Wars and LOTR have many points just like that.

But it could be possible that the people at Squenix are more technical, and they are more worried about the graphics and gameplay than the story. So they just recycle certain plot elements instead of making new ones. I think Harlequin is right.

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Posted: 19th April 2008 20:27

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Quote (BlitzSage @ 19th April 2008 18:00)
But it could be possible that the people at Squenix are more technical, and they are more worried about the graphics and gameplay than the story. So they just recycle certain plot elements instead of making new ones. I think Harlequin is right.

Well, I don't say it's a recycled plot device. Things must get better before they get worse, no?

I've been thinking more about it, and I would guess that that is the best way to show that everything has changed in the characters internally; they have to make a corny speech to show that, because most RPG's don't show the direct thoughts of the characters.

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Posted: 20th April 2008 05:59

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Final fantasy V is not like that, it's about countering nothingness with the power of friendship... oh wait... pinch.gif

Final fantasy VIII is not like that, it's about countering the destruction of everything for the sake of love... oh wait... pinch.gif

Final fantasy X-2 is not like that, it's about looking for love, and having the game say, "Seriously, he's dead. Get over it." and then she gets over it... so... umm... eh.gif

And that's the long way of saying, "I agree."

But it does raise a good question: Why does it seem that all RPGs end in a perfectly happily ever after sense that can only be discounted by the occasional sequel that has to go into painful detail on why that happily ever after didn't work? The closest thing to not-happily-ever-after is when there is explanation of progress toward happily ever after.

But on the other side, if you finish a game, you have typically undertaken countless hours of playing just to reach a point in which your team has the power to bring down a final foe. A simple, "Good Job" at that point would be like getting rammed in the face with a cold shoulder. People want inspirational messages of hope (especially if there is good chance of a sequel, because if you need to hope, then all evil is not eliminated.)

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Posted: 20th April 2008 13:52

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Quote (Harlequin @ 19th April 2008 20:27)
I've been thinking more about it, and I would guess that that is the best way to show that everything has changed in the characters internally; they have to make a corny speech to show that, because most RPG's don't show the direct thoughts of the characters.


That's probably because of technology, then again, they continued to have the corny speeches in the newer games. Maybe it's tradition. Most stories have themes and the corny speech is best for spelling it out. (or maybe Squenix just likes them, who knows?)

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Why does it seem that all RPGs end in a perfectly happily ever after sense that can only be discounted by the occasional sequel that has to go into painful detail on why that happily ever after didn't work?


Seconded. I've always like unclear endings that make you wonder what's going to happen. Those are better for sequels because it leaves you wondering how it will play out. That goes back to the original question. Are they doing that just to teach us something or give us hope?

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 20th April 2008 13:53

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Posted: 20th April 2008 16:20

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Quote
Quote
Why does it seem that all RPGs end in a perfectly happily ever after sense that can only be discounted by the occasional sequel that has to go into painful detail on why that happily ever after didn't work?


Seconded. I've always like unclear endings that make you wonder what's going to happen. Those are better for sequels because it leaves you wondering how it will play out. That goes back to the original question. Are they doing that just to teach us something or give us hope?


I know a lot of people didn't like it, but that's why I liked the ending to FF VII, because you really didn't know if everyone died, survived, or what happened. Left it perfectly open for the sequels
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Posted: 24th April 2008 19:15

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Quote (painreaver @ 20th April 2008 16:20)
I know a lot of people didn't like it, but that's why I liked the ending to FF VII, because you really didn't know if everyone died, survived, or what happened. Left it perfectly open for the sequels

Yeah, and that is great for sequels, if they know the story is going to continue. But it's not if they're making them just for money or just to be making them. I've heard many directors say that they do not like sequels because it's like recycling the story, but I believe that some stories need one.

Back to the original question. I think they are putting out a 'self help booklet' for some people, but it can be argued that stories, other than their main function of entertainment, also teach life lessons that are invaluable. They can be used to show us if something is wrong, if there are errors in our ways, or they can be used to give us hope.

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