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A lot of the older ones had pointless towns. III had several towns that you never really had to visit in the course of the game. IV had a couple. Like Mythril, and Tomra? Is that the dwarf town by the sealed cave? V had it's share of extra towns. Then at 6, it started to taper off. Suddenly, things happened in every spot on the globe. :-/

i never played 3, but you are right about 4 and 5. its a habbit they should get back into i think

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It's junction system wasn't the best IMO, I just didn't like the way it almost punished you for actually using your own magic in battle.
"Let's use Ultima! ... no... I can't, because it's nowhere in this game and I won't be immune to fire anymore if I do"
That was stupid to me.

the trick is to make a system that isn't so easy that you can abuse. it makes you think. plus, ultima has like a dozen draw points on the world map, along with several elsewhere. and you can use any of the magic you have without affecting your junctioning system.

[EDIT]well actually, it does affect the junction, but not what is junctioned, only to what degree it is junctioned.

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Another thing that doesn't make sense is... GFs make you forget right?
So in the final battle with Ultimecia, she actually becomes one with her GF, so surely her memory should be totally erased by this crazy move.

What really happened

Ultimecia: Mwahaha, and now I shall merge with my GF Griever, and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!!
Rinoa: Oh no! Squall do something!
Squall: ...whatever.
Rinoa: Irvine, shoot her dead!
Irvine: No... no, it would change history, argh, I can't do it!

Ultimecia becomes one with Griever, while lots of scary sparkly effects take place.

Ultimecia: Woah... um, who are you people, where am I, who am I?
Squall: ...?
Zell: You were making me my breakfast woman, come on, I'm late for the gym!
Ultimecia: Oh um, OK, err...
Zell: That's two fried eggs, hurry it up already. And make sure the toast is wholemeal.
Ultimecia: Sure thing...
Squall: Um, should we still kill her?
Zell: After breakfast.

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

the GF's and forgetting process is gradual and not super-big. when squal and co. equipped GFs, they didn't go insane and forget who they were or where they were, they just gradually forgot about things that had happened in the past, without even realizing it until they figured out what they had lost.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

Quote (Death Penalty @ 20th June 2007 13:03)

the GF's and forgetting process is gradual and not super-big. when squal and co. equipped GFs, they didn't go insane and forget who they were or where they were, they just gradually forgot about things that had happened in the past, without even realizing it until they figured out what they had lost.

Exactly. It's called "selective amnesia." Those afflicted by it only forget about things vital to the plot, such as them being childhood friends who grew up in the same orphanage together, had lots and lots of fond childhood memories, events that marked them for life, and promptly forgot about them afterwards for the sake of having a working storyline.

Ultimecia can't simply forget about her plan, that would break the storyline. Hence, selective amnesia. The rest doesn't have to make sense - it's amnesia after all. Magic amnesia.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

ok im sure that they could have expanded that so the gradual GF forgeting-ness made them forget how they got into garden or something like that.

it isn't the most solid part of the story.

when i played FF8, i always looked beyond that part. there were so many more interesting things happening in the story that i overlooked that sketchy part of the plot. honestly, i didn't even think that the orphanage was that important. they could have just said squall was there with elone and edea and i think it would have worked out fine.

ive said it before, the one problem with FF8's story is that they tried to put too much into it without spreading it out enough. had they made it a longer RPG to play and removed a few sketchy parts, then it would amazing.

unfortunately, a lot of RPGs (FF included) use some form of amnesia or somehow forgeting the past. FF7 had it. cloud was really messed up when it came to remembering things that were pivitol points in his life. in FF9, zidane couldn't remember where he came from or who he was, even though that was the most important thing about him, that he came from Terra to destroy Gaia and overthrow Kuja. FF5 Galuf forgot that he had been one of the four to seal ExDeath the first time. That seems like a little hard to forget.

it wasn't like FF8 was the only one to do that, but in FF8 (to me) it just didn't seem to be all that important. think about what would have happened if squall and ellone were the only ones at that orphanage, and squall just didn't make the connection between 'sis' and ellone. understandable, since as a child, he is never shown calling her ellone. and since edea got a complete make-over when she got taken over, he might not recognize her as the same edea. there have to be more than one person called edea.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
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Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

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Quote (Death Penalty @ 20th June 2007 21:28)

ok im sure that they could have expanded that so the gradual GF forgeting-ness made them forget how they got into garden or something like that.

it isn't the most solid part of the story.

when i played FF8, i always looked beyond that part. there were so many more interesting things happening in the story that i overlooked that sketchy part of the plot. honestly, i didn't even think that the orphanage was that important. they could have just said squall was there with elone and edea and i think it would have worked out fine.

ive said it before, the one problem with FF8's story is that they tried to put too much into it without spreading it out enough. had they made it a longer RPG to play and removed a few sketchy parts, then it would amazing.

unfortunately, a lot of RPGs (FF included) use some form of amnesia or somehow forgeting the past. FF7 had it. cloud was really messed up when it came to remembering things that were pivitol points in his life. in FF9, zidane couldn't remember where he came from or who he was, even though that was the most important thing about him, that he came from Terra to destroy Gaia and overthrow Kuja. FF5 Galuf forgot that he had been one of the four to seal ExDeath the first time. That seems like a little hard to forget.

it wasn't like FF8 was the only one to do that, but in FF8 (to me) it just didn't seem to be all that important. think about what would have happened if squall and ellone were the only ones at that orphanage, and squall just didn't make the connection between 'sis' and ellone. understandable, since as a child, he is never shown calling her ellone. and since edea got a complete make-over when she got taken over, he might not recognize her as the same edea. there have to be more than one person called edea.

The amnesia gimmick would've worked a lot better if they all just forgot they existed and Poof no more game. The difference between the other games using that plot device is that it's contained to certain memories, the amnesia isn't random and only briefly mentioned in two or three text squares and then discarded for the rest of the game. Mind you, I don't think it's ever really a good way of furthering a storyline or bringing about details from the past.

It's been said countless times, but the characters lacked a lot of substance. How could Irvine have attained such a high recommendation as a sharpshooter if he had such great difficulty making shots? He specifically stated that the choking always happened to him. Also, what the hell was Selphie ever good for? In terms of plot or battle usage, she was nothing but annoying. I can't deal with pointless characters, it just bothers me.

Junctioning overall was ridiculous because it limited your magic use as well as just pumped up all your stats so that with a bit of leveling early in the game, you never really have to do more than hit the Fight button and occasionally hit the trigger for critical damage to change the pace a bit. I can't think of a single fight that made me pause, think and say "hmm maybe I should consider using (insert strategy here)"

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Okay, but there was a goat!

I Liked FFVIII, but I don't think it was the best one in the series (that belongs to ff6)

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Exactly. It's called "selective amnesia." Those afflicted by it only forget about things vital to the plot, such as them being childhood friends who grew up in the same orphanage together, had lots and lots of fond childhood memories, events that marked them for life, and promptly forgot about them afterwards for the sake of having a working storyline.

Ultimecia can't simply forget about her plan, that would break the storyline. Hence, selective amnesia.  The rest doesn't have to make sense - it's amnesia after all. Magic amnesia.

I agree, i don't realy even think they NEEDED the GF's to make them all forget...
Because they were all pretty young, therefore thier memory would be a bit foggy
(and squall wouldn't have to say "the GF made me forget" )

But this game is my favorite
If I could change anything, i would give all the characters background stories

EXAMPLE: Selphie pretends to be happy-go-lucky because something horrible happened to her therefore she hides her sad side away from the world
And so on and so fourth

But i belive they didn't put in alot of plot details because it would have made the game too long and focus more on the story than the gameplay ( Kind of like in DoC, At least i think that's what some people said)

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This post has been edited by Smackthedog on 23rd June 2007 05:06

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OBEY YOUR THIRST
"Aww...They're SOOO CUUTE!! BUT WHO CARES!!!!?"
-Excel Excel, Excel Saga

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 22nd June 2007 22:30)

Mind you, I don't think it's ever really a good way of furthering a storyline or bringing about details from the past.

It's a cheap deus ex machina. A storyline that relies on a blackbox to convey itself is just hastily made. By "blackbox" I mean anything that can result in whatever situation the writers want; amnesia means you can remember ANYTHING, for instance. Another example? Having mysterious powers that are never fully explained, just so you can fall back on those and come up with a new power to move the story along. Still want more? Dig a little. You'll find plenty.

Irvine: You guessed it... I knew right away, when we first met!
Selphie: Heeey! Why didn't you tell us!?
Quistis: Yes, who didn't you tell us?
Irvine: 'Cause you two seemed to have forgotten!

How's that for realism? When you run into someone you haven't seen in a long time, you go, "DUUUUDE! OMG, how've you been? It's been forever man!" You don't act all cool and uncaring, hit on the party's female members, and never so much as act like you've ever seen anyone before.

I just love how that scene plays out. First Square needs to introduce it to us so they have Irvine tell his little story. But them, zomg, if he remembers why didn't he ever bring it up? After all, it's not like Square had a storyboard for FF8. So... why not just make up an excuse by having Irvine say he immediately knew before they ever spoke to each other that everyone seemed to have forgotten, and that's a major buzz-kill for him. And then, to wrap things up, they have everyone suddently remember.

Oddly enough weeks of travelling together, comeraderies, life or death situations, and so forth weren't enough to jog anyone's memory. But Irvine offhandedly saying he was in an orphanage to explain why he fights (total subject change mid-sentence...) to Rinoa instantly made everyone remember.

Odder still, this monstrously important event suddently made all of the other involved characters who weren't there also remember. Irvine is just that damned cool, isn't he? That, or Square really did introduce this thing on a whim and never had a chance to do any developement nor had the rocks to go back and alter the storyline a bit to work this into it.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

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I can't deal with pointless characters, it just bothers me

ok there are plenty of characters that are pointless in the series. its not like FF8 was the only one to do that. selphie wasn't essential, but she wasn't useless either.

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I agree, i don't realy even think they NEEDED the GF's to make them all forget...
Because they were all pretty young, therefore thier memory would be a bit foggy
(and squall wouldn't have to say "the GF made me forget"  )

i agree also. they were all young. ive said it before, i dont think that the entire orphanage part was necessary at all. i think of it as an odd, unnecessary, bad mark on an otherwise great game.

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Junctioning overall was ridiculous because it limited your magic use as well as just pumped up all your stats so that with a bit of leveling early in the game, you never really have to do more than hit the Fight button and occasionally hit the trigger for critical damage to change the pace a bit. I can't think of a single fight that made me pause, think and say "hmm maybe I should consider using (insert strategy here)"

junction is rediculous? i strongly disagree. it does not limit magic use. true, you do have to draw it from enemies. this is not only done easily but also quickly. every game somehow limits your magic. in other games, you have to level up in order to learn that magic (FF6). in FF7, you can only use magic that you have equiped to your weapon. if your GFs were good, and i mean really good, then you would be able to pump up your stats with the junction system. it took me some time to get my GFs to learn abilities that would enable my characters to have all the junctions available. maybe i am just bad at this game, but i had to work hard in order to beat Ultimecia, no matter how long i trained. i had all my characters at level 100 (not that hard to do on the "Island Closest to Hell") with full HP and high, Ultima-junctioned attacks, and i still have problems beating Ultimecia. i had problems beating omega weapon as well.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

Psssst, Death Penalty: Aura + Cancel Turn Until Limit. It's this game's vanish/doom, only it isn't a glitch that can cause problems in certain cases. If you're smart, your party will be composed of characters whose limits multi-hit, such as Squall, Irvine, or Zell (IIRC...)

You can pretty much take out anything with less than 3-4 attacks that way, if you can hit hard enough. Most regular bosses will go down after just a turn or two.

Before aura is available, you can simply rely on GFs for all of your battles. GFs become all but useless at the end of the third disc, which is about the time Aura can be obtained more or less. There's hardly a need for further strategy in this game if you keep your characters up to date.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 24th June 2007 05:26

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 23rd June 2007 23:25)

Psssst, Death Penalty: Aura + Cancel Turn Until Limit.

Call me a big cheater, but I freakin loved that ability.

And yes, once you get the lionheart with squall, unloading countless 9999s on Ultemecia will take her down in a matter of turns.

One thing I do have to say about junctionings tho: (and I jumped into this at SL's post, so this may repeat someone else's words...)

Using the magic as a pump on you stats allows you to play the game based on Attacking, rather than just unloading Knights of the Round over and over.

I realize the hypocracy in this post, but understand that the Aura thing doesn't come til later, and if you happen to rely on your GFs entirely, you will be incredibly SOL when they get weak, and your potions won't up their HP. It's kinda like the battery going out on a force field: You're still there, but a blood bath will ensue. Well rounded characters will make it a lot farther, even in FFVIII.

Edit: Spelling

This post has been edited by leilong on 24th June 2007 06:30

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If internal struggles were as enjoyable and glamorous as the self conflicted wars within video game characters, we would all be statues, reveling in perpetual self war. -Me

Play me on Rock Band 2, GH-WT, or any other Xbox GH!
Xbox Gamertag-MeanJerry

I actually just realized something, and it relates to "Cid picking the ones from the orphanage on purpose."

I dont think Cid DID do this because when it came to shooting Edea, what if Irvine didn't use a gun? Then maybe some other guy with a gun would join the party...

Unless when Cid err sent them off to the Gardens (IIRC) he forced them into using certain weapons.

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Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

Quote (Dragon King @ 24th June 2007 08:51)

I actually just realized something, and it relates to "Cid picking the ones from the orphanage on purpose."

I dont think Cid DID do this because when it came to shooting Edea, what if Irvine didn't use a gun?  Then maybe some other guy with a gun would join the party...

Why would weapon-choice matter in the slightest? This is an 'assassination plot' of which the backup plan was to charge into the middle of a heavily-guarded parade and murder their target in front of thousands.

They chose a sniper for convenience and perhaps expediency, but certainly not for actual sniper-rifle advantages such as secrecy, plausible deniability, or the ability to escape.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

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Psssst, Death Penalty: Aura + Cancel Turn Until Limit. It's this game's vanish/doom, only it isn't a glitch that can cause problems in certain cases. If you're smart, your party will be composed of characters whose limits multi-hit, such as Squall, Irvine, or Zell (IIRC...)

yes, i used that as well. most games have some sort of glitch-type thing like that. this one is particularly bad though.

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Using the magic as a pump on you stats allows you to play the game based on Attacking, rather than just unloading Knights of the Round over and over.

I realize the hypocracy in this post, but understand that the Aura thing doesn't come til later, and if you happen to rely on your GFs entirely, you will be incredibly SOL when they get weak, and your potions won't up their HP. It's kinda like the battery going out on a force field: You're still there, but a blood bath will ensue. Well rounded characters will make it a lot farther, even in FFVIII.

agreed. besides, i think that these games would be way to hard for me if there wasn't some kind of gimick for me to take advantage of

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

FF8 does some things right, otherwise I would never have bothered with it.

The card game: The makers did well to make it completely optional but very rewarding for those who make the effort to learn it. Finding the Card Club King is one of the game more interesting out-of-battle moments. Completing that quest is a huge sanity saver for item collecting as well.

The GF command is strong without being overpowered. Sure there isn't a strict limit to how much they can be summoned in battle and they prevent damage to the character, however...

Edit

I've been persuaded that balanced is not the proper phrase.

- The summoner cannot take any other action while summoning. Given normal compatibility values (between 500 and 700) the character could have taken around 2-3 turns in the time it takes to summon a GF once. Should the battle situation suddenly change, the summoner is unable to adapt. 3 characters with decent offensive junctions can usually finish a battle in the ATB time it takes for a GF to appear. Limits are much better for damage and there are some powerful status attack Junctions out there.
- The summon can be canceled completely by Silence, Berserk, Confusion, Petrify, and instant KO.
- The only means of healing GF HP during battle is the Minimog command which is unavailable without access to Chocobo World. And that isn't available for a disc and a half regardless. There's no way to revive a KOed GF in battle period. If the characters have poor Vitality and Spirit, then summoned GFs will also take quite a beating. (and if they don't, then GF assistance isn't really necessary) This is not an issue for battles which end in one or two summons but stronger opponents will penalize those who recklessly summon and neglect Junctions and strategy.

On top of all this, the later forms of the final boss has an attack specifically for KOing GFs while they're being summoned. So I hardly believe the command is broken. It's strong enough to allow lesser skilled players to make progress in the story, and has enough weaknesses so that hard battles aren't made easy by relying solely on GF.

In FF6, the Magic command dominated the game. It's toned down in this installment to where it's more about the versatility than solely damage. Past disc 1, the damaging spells I'll use the most are Demi and Meltdown.

The refinement abilities made for interesting gameplay. Making something stronger or more useful out of junk or obsolete items is a good idea. Refining spells is much faster than drawing them. Of course, the items that refine into the best junction spells, stat raisers, and invincibility items aren't easy to amass. That would make things too easy.

I like how the game breaks some common RPG cliches. The upgrade system removes such issues as to how a backwater town like Mideel sells better equipment than Junon.
Unlike other RPG characters who are gifted with the ability to withstand large amounts of abuse, unJunctioned FF8 characters are complete wimps. All their power comes from GF. It makes them seem more human. Doesn't excuse the game's flaws but that's a different topic.

This post has been edited by DragonKnight Zero on 6th July 2007 05:43

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- The summoner cannot take any other action while summoning. They give up around 2-4 turns this way. Should the battle situation suddenly change, the summoner is unable to adapt.
- The summon can be canceled completely by Silence, Berserk, Confusion, Petrify, and instant KO.
- The only means of healing GF HP during battle is the Minimog command which is unavailable without access to Chocobo World. And that isn't available for a disc and a half regardless. There's no way to revive a KOed GF in battle period. If the characters have poor Vitality and Spirit, then summoned GFs will also take quite a beating. (and if they don't, then GF assistance isn't really necessary)

this is all true. however, early in this topic, we had people complaining about how easy it is to summon a GF and have it wipe things out. in order to counter how strong these GFs are, there needs to be some weakness. the first 2 bullets are answered by this.

for the third, i rarely had to worry about my GFs health, until the end of the game. after every battle in which i employed GFs, i would heal them. this way they were in good shape for the battle. plus, if you give them their health upgrade early, they are even harder to knock out.

also, if you have one character that you want to be your main summoner, you can, with a little drawing, just junction him so that he is immune to silence or confusion.

This post has been edited by Death Penalty on 28th June 2007 20:57

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

The GF command is as unbalanced as it gets. Seriously, I can't even THINK of how this is any balanced. I'm sorry to disagree so vehemently but there it is.

- While you cannot take any other actions, you don't lose any health either. Unless that character is your sole means of healing/etc, you're not taking any risk other than losing the GF and delaying the end of the battle a little longer. And, frankly, it does not take 2-4 turns. In fact, if you stick with a GF, your compatibility (increased each use; if you rely on them, they'll quickly gain a lot of compatibility!) will reduce that time.

- While they can be cancelled, again, it just delays the end of the fight. You have 3 characters who can use GFs, not just one. And in the short window of time during which a GF is summoned, you're VERY unlikely to have your entire party hit by these things all at once.

- While your GFs may take a beating with poor stats, they have quite a bit more health than your characters. If your GF is dead, you'd have been dead a long time before that if you hadn't relied on them. As for healing? They regain HP rapidly as you walk around. It only takes a few uses to beat even bosses so death and/or high HP loss to all of your active GFs is not going to happen unless you REALLY were unprepared.

On the other hand...

- GFs act like shields. While you cast them, you're perfectly safe from most attacks.

- The more you use them, the more your compatibility rises. So basically the system is designed to make it easier for people who rely on GFs, and people who try to play normally will end up having to wait quite a bit longer when they end up having to fall back on using a GF during a tough fight. Not sure how that's balanced, honestly.

- It gets better. You can increase their damage by up to a whopping 255%. Realistically speaking it's usually around 150-175. And this ability is ridiculously easy to get, too: a mere 10 AP. Toss in SumMag+40% and your end-all ultimate summon Eden can go up to 357% of its original damage.

Compared to sitting there, taking damage, and dishing out small amounts of damage to the enemy, GFs make you near-invincible unless you really mess up with them badly. Luckily Square got smart and created anti-GF abilities for some enemies. All of which are near the end of the game, when you start getting Aura and infinit limit breaks (which, anyway, deal more than a GF if they multi-hit like Renzokuken does...) So really, what's the point? If Square had put those in earlier, THEN they would've served a purpose. They balance nothing.

If Square also had some ability that kills you or damages you a lot while in Aura mode, there may've been a point. Maybe.

As for refinement abilities? Interesting, but not overly so. Without equipment, you only have items and spells to gain from this. But since you can just rely on GFs through the first 3 discs and Aura afterwards, you'll rarely need any healing or boosting. So really, it's of limited (but not nonexistant) use. As for spells, you can easily max out on ultima here and there. Flying from draw point to draw point is much faster than collecting a bunch of items. Which sometimes gets ridiculous.

100 Curse Spikes = 1 Dark Matter
1 Dark Matter = 1 Shaman Stone
10 Shaman Stones = 1 Hero-Trial
10 Hero-Trials = 1 Hero
10 Heros = 1 Holy-War Trial
10 Holy-War Trial = 1 Holy War

So to get a holy war, you need 1,000,000 Curse Spikes. Ever got a holy war other than by refining a Gilgamesh Card? If anyone has, they need a life.

But thankfully it just makes your party invincible, which is pretty much useless because, hey, aura/renzokuken.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Silverlance, I agree with you to an extent. However you can find similar (and, IMO, much worse) cheats in other FFs as well.

Quick is devastating in FF5, and with the Economizer nothing can stand in your way in FF6. Gem Box + Economizer + Quick + Ultima = instant death to 99% of enemies for minimal MP cost.

FF7's KotR + Mime is another one that's easily abused. Most strategies against the weapons and Sephiroth involve it some way or another.

FF8's GFs can be setup to be very godly, and limits can be abused immensely. Yeah, it's very abusable, but what isn't?

I don't mean to say that FF8s system DOESN'T have any problems, but they could be much worse.

In the end nobody will every agree about this or any other FF-related discussion. Some people can't understand Cloud's backstory, some can't stand the characters in FFX (or the voice acting...), some hate 2d graphics, some hate 3d graphics...

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Lou: There's a couple of guys fighting down at the aquarium, Chief.
Wiggum: Do they still sell those frozen bananas?
Lou: I think so.
Wiggum: Let's roll.

FF8 is on trial here - not the other FFs. Wether they're broken or not has no impact on FF8 being well-balanced or an outright failure.

FF6 has an even more broken combination, the well-known genji glove/offering/atma weapon/illumina combo which kills even Kefka in one attack, if you're strong enough. However, you will not get the offering until MUCH later in the game, unlike GFs which are available right from the start. Same goes with the Economizer, Gem Box, and Ultima. In fact, gathering all 3 involves quite a bit of effort (2 sidequests and a few tough battles.)

Same goes with FF7's KotR/Mime. You don't get any of those until much later in the game, when you can breed a gold chocobo.

Those flaws are similare to the Aura/Limit Break flaw FF8 has. There is nothing that compares to GFs in other FFs however, as no FF has a massive cheat that can be used from the beginning to wipe the floor with anything.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

i hate having to disagree with such a strong opinion on this (silverlance), but GF/eidolon/esper/summon are abusable in many FFs, not just 8. first of all, you say that you can be amazing right away with your GFs. in the begining, you only have elemental GFs anyway, and your compatability isn't very good either. plus, you have to look at if you want to work with your GFs so that they become stronger themselves, or if they become a better junctioning tool. then you have the GFs like brothers that miss half the time, especially from the 2nd disc onward. quite frankly, when i first played through, i didn't rely on my GFs at all.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

However, in other FFs they offer no additional unbalancing effects (such as fully protecting you from damage for a short while) and cost something to use (MP, a concept alien to FF8.) The only cost you have to pay in FF8 is them being responsible for the worst plot device ever about halfway through the game.

Regardless, this thread is about FF8, not the rest of the series. Wether they have flaws or not (which, to be fair, all do to some extent) has no impact on wether FF8 does or doesn't. Other games do not work as an argument for or against FF8's system as all FFs have their own individual systems. Thankfully. I can't begin to imagine what having a genji glove/offering in all FFs would be like.

In the beginning, even a single cast of Quetzacotl can wipe out an entire random encounter instantly. Only a handfull of casts are necessary to take out a boss, and even then a handfull may be a bit much. Later on, because they'll have gained levels (unless you never equip them; there's honestly no reason not to) they gain power pretty much as fast as enemies do, and it doesn't take any longer to wipe out a boss than it did in the beginning. Meanwhile, your party members gain what's essentially a reasonably big HP boost for free out of the whole deal and a chance to cheat death. GF HP loss? No problem - they regain HP rapidly on their own out of battle.

Because GFs autolevel alongside your party, there is no work to be done. No customization that affects them directly, no possible way of screwing them up (unless you purposefully kill them over and over to bring down their compatibility; even then, this only means you'll lose an additional turn before casting them at best), and they simply keep getting stronger and stronger. This allows them to remain strong enough to consistently and effortlessly beat bosses until they start pulling out their insta-GF-kill abilities at the end of the third disc.

There is nothing balanced about GFs. And that's a fact, not an opinion. I am aware of the disctinction between the two, and simply cannot use "opinion" here when it's such a disturbingly abusable system.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 29th June 2007 05:59

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 29th June 2007 01:58)

The only cost you have to pay in FF8 is them being responsible for the worst plot device ever about halfway through the game.

I think you can add a long, boring animation to that equation. One of the reasons I never cast GFs is the amount of time they take to summon. I'm not a fan of boosting like a maniac either. At least FF9 had the courtesy of adding a "short" animation option.

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Lou: There's a couple of guys fighting down at the aquarium, Chief.
Wiggum: Do they still sell those frozen bananas?
Lou: I think so.
Wiggum: Let's roll.

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I think you can add a long, boring animation to that equation. One of the reasons I never cast GFs is the amount of time they take to summon. I'm not a fan of boosting like a maniac either. At least FF9 had the courtesy of adding a "short" animation option.

i didn't cast them often for that same reason. i never used a GF in a random counter because the animation would take too long. i didn't boost that much either, since i would constantly keep tapping the button mindlessly and ruin my boost.

when i fought bosses with my GFs, i never felt indestructible (spelling?). this is partially because, instead of jacking up my GF's skills, i would use their experience to expand my junction abilities.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read the whole thread - and since this is a Necro, anyway, meh. I think the idea for FF8 came about pretty simply, with a few basic ideas.

"Hey, FFVII's futuristic setting really seemed to catch on. Let's work with that."
"Yeah, but let's go back to Espers."
"What if the Espers actually hurt their users in some way, or were somehow evil?"

That's what I see. The GFs themselves are the main villains of the piece and no one in the game seems to know - or care. Does it ever strike you a little oddly, that while Quetzacoatl and Siren were already captured by the Garden, Ifrit fought back, called Squall & Quisty "Impudent Humans", and so on? Or that a lamp which contains a formerly sealed GF (why would it be sealed in the first place? Wouldn't someone have used it as a GF before), was considered cursed? These are early hints, at least to me, that the GFs are, if not evil, then they're cosmic beings, more focused on the good of the Universe (and of their own existance) than that of the people who call on their abilities through the Junction system.

As far as Time Compression is concerned, I think it's simple: It's a large-scale spell. For those of you going, "huh?", here's the deal: Ultimecia is a, what? Yeah, a Sorceress. She casts magic. Thus, she's casting the biggest spell ever to exist, and simultaneously crafting it. The "time bubbles" are simply the first wave. I'd bet that by then, the first millennium or 3 had been erased, collapsed into her "all-time-moment".

Which gets into a question of: why them? Why these characters? I think it's pretty simple. Squall looked up to Seifer as much as he disliked him - see the sparring match at the beginning of the game - that actually begins their active rivalry. When Seifer declares himself Edea's knight, Squall first tries to "whatever" his way out of it, to act like he's not jealous that Seifer actually found something worth living for. But he can't.

Rinoa, a Sorceress herself, has attached herself to Squall after knowing Seifer. Squall attaches himself to her as her Knight - note that he does not understand (or care) what this entails.

So. You have a Sorceress and her Knight being manipulated by a group of mind-warping GFs against another Sorceress and her mind-warping GF who she merges with... and a bunch of others dragged along for the ride because the Good Sorceress Ellone figured she'd need them for backup.

And as far as the Time Compression stopping when she was killed, let's say it again. She's not Kefka. She did not win. She was in the process of winning, yes, but Ellone was able to weave her way through a non-causal loop (for her, meeting Squall outside the nurse's office probably came after being saved by him and Quistis). So, working alongside the sociopathic GFs, the new Sorceress and her Knight get led through a series of challenges (probably somewhat ritualistic ones), and taken to the End of Time, where the Time Compression spell was happening - and, possibly, could never have been completed. The death of Ultimecia released her spell as effectively as Silence could have were it not a super-spell.

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Man. Orphans. Square, this game is when I lost faith in you.

I don't know why FF 8 gets so much hate and dislike just for the infamous orphanage plotwist. It wasn't a random ass- pull done by Square. They didn't run out of ideas and make something up to keep the game exciting. The orphanage twist was planned from the beginning. liberi Fatali in latin means Children of Destiny and that song was played during the game's opening. They're supposed to be the lost children separated and then rejoined by fate, that's what the game's story is about and the game's main theme. Find Liberi Fatali's english translation. It's about about the lost children coming together again.

Why is the orphanage plotwist so bad of a plotwist ?

What about Cecil coming from the moon from FF IV ?
Galuf coming from another world and using meteors as transportation ?
Terra being half human- half fantasy creature ?
Tidus not being real and actually being a dream ?

All of those are random plotwists too, why does this plotwist get so much hate ?

Somebody coming from the moon doesn't really make sense, but it's clear that the orphanage twist it's meant to be and it fits in with the game. Also judging the FF8 army soldiers to be more realistic. The game is called Final FANTASY. Fantasy is not real, made up. Why would you want a realistic solider in a fantasy game ? It wouldn't make any sense, if you want a more realistic solider game why not play Gears of War or something instead ?

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just because it doesn't portray a great militaristic doesn't mean it's a crappy game.

* Claps * Brilliant ! Brilliant ! Well said. Well said. I bow to you.

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I'm getting so sick and tired of all the strawmandering people attempt in order to defend FF8's inadequacies. FFVIII's SeeD structure would have collapsed in on itself just by examining canonical chain of command!

We're not strawmandering. We're just trying to support a game that we love from a whole lot of biasedy. Again, Final Fantasy VIII is a fantasy game. Why are you looking for something realistic in something that's meant to be fantasy ? So what if the SeeD army collapsed, many organizations and rebel groups do collapse in reality, nothing is prefect. Nothing is made on a unstoppable structure. It's a Final Fantasy game, come on, the game is meant to be enjoyed for fun and entertainment and some laughs, not judging whether a fantasy army force, something that's not real would stand in a real world.

This post has been edited by ZidaneTribal on 20th November 2010 07:33

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Currently playing Chrono Trigger !!
Currently looking forward to Don't Know.

Quote (ZidaneTribal @ 20th November 2010 08:10)

What about Cecil coming from the moon from FF IV ?
Galuf coming from another world and using meteors as transportation ?
Terra being half human- half fantasy creature ?
Tidus not being real and actually being a dream ?

None of these things involve the mighty level of coincidence (sorry, "destiny") that the orphanage reunion does. And yes, of course it was planned, but that doesn't mean it was adequately foreshadowed so as not to feel utterly bizarre (unless you read latin maybe). It's the combination of these factors, and quite possibly others I've forgotten.

I suppose, though, that all having grown up in an orphanage led by someone infected with sorceress does explain why all the main characters are so unlikable. So there is some consistency.

This post has been edited by Tiddles on 20th November 2010 11:09

Quote (ZidaneTribal @ 20th November 2010 08:10)

Also judging the FF8 army soldiers to be more realistic. The game is called Final FANTASY. Fantasy is not real, made up. Why would you want a realistic solider in a fantasy game ? It wouldn't make any sense, if you want a more realistic solider game why not play Gears of War or something instead ?

So what if the SeeD army collapsed, many organizations and rebel groups do collapse in reality, nothing is prefect. Nothing is made on a unstoppable structure. It's a Final Fantasy game, come on, the game is meant to be enjoyed for fun and entertainment and some laughs, not judging whether a fantasy army force, something that's not real would stand in a real world.

There are a lot of things in FF that are realistic. I think it's important to stabilise between fantasy and believable, otherwise the game loses it's charm if it's not fantasy enough, or its immersion (or interest) if it's outside the realms of possibility. FFVIII doesn't quite hit that niche. I'm not just talking about the soldiers, it's the same throughout.

SeeD aren't fleshed out enough in the beginning and I don't believe that there is enough for them to do, or that they would function effectively. It's not really a question of fantasy, just that the organisation is focused more on the school, not the work. It's stale and unproductive. One Garden is hard to justify, but three is ridiculous. The only job we see them doing other than Dollet is two men patrolling Winhill for monsters. The assassination is SeeD's own plan. If FFVIII was set in a world of many competing interests and the Galbadians didn't have a monopoly over everything, or Esther wasn't closed off to the public, then it was have a purpose to serve. Or if the SeeDs were just trained in Garden and then found jobs in the Galbadian army or whatever, that would be understandable. They would still be able to be called upon to fight the Sorceress. That's my main gripe with the realism issue of SeeD. You ask why that should matter, well, if it's not believable you lose your faith in it, and you're not compelled or interested in what it does. It still has to be fantasy, and it is, but so are so many better, believable, armies in other FFs that are pure fantasy; moreover, they're even more fantastical than FFVIII.

If you take FFIX for example, there is a solid hierarchy of weapons and it's compelling to see them in action in a way that VIII isn't. I really believe in Brahne's quest to get Eidolons because they destroy cities, and her Black Mages beat Airships in the arms race. VIII has mercenaries that don't seem to get hired, and live on an island with a training ground that nobody seems to use. The game wants me to imagine the rest, and that's ok, but it has to meet me half-way or it seems like I'm the only person doing anything and the immersion is lost.

The same logic applies to the orphanage plot twist and the whole time-compression idea. It's poor, and it loses confidence in the game.

I don't have a lot of empathy for FFVIII fans that think the game is unfairly treated. I like the game, I just think that it's criticism is justified and convincing. It's not so bad that I don't want to play it again at some point for all the good parts. I'm just not taken in by a lot of what the game offers. However, to its credit, I liked SeeD a lot more once the silly mercenary business ended and they had a real agenda, especially the idea of a future Sorceress being fought by the White SeeDs. I think the Castle at the end is the best part of the game, great music. I wish the future world had more to it. There it is again, not fleshed out enough.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Although I for one enjoyed FF VIII, my only beef with it was that it tried WAY too hard to be like FF VII.

This post has been edited by PendragonKuro on 3rd December 2010 07:41

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The meaning of life is life itself.

We were put on this earth to follow our dreams unabated.

Quote (fatman @ 19th June 2007 12:34)

Another thing that doesn't make sense is... GFs make you forget right?
So in the final battle with Ultimecia, she actually becomes one with her GF, so surely her memory should be totally erased by this crazy move.

What really happened

Ultimecia: Mwahaha, and now I shall merge with my GF Griever, and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!!
Rinoa: Oh no! Squall do something!
Squall: ...whatever.
Rinoa: Irvine, shoot her dead!
Irvine: No... no, it would change history, argh, I can't do it!

Ultimecia becomes one with Griever, while lots of scary sparkly effects take place.

Ultimecia: Woah... um, who are you people, where am I, who am I?
Squall: ...?
Zell: You were making me my breakfast woman, come on, I'm late for the gym!
Ultimecia: Oh um, OK, err...
Zell: That's two fried eggs, hurry it up already. And make sure the toast is wholemeal.
Ultimecia: Sure thing...
Squall: Um, should we still kill her?
Zell: After breakfast.

You do have a valid point sir.


BTW, what is that you are using for your avatar?

Moderator Edit

A couple points to make here, please. 1. Don't double post, even if they're an hour apart. It's safe to edit your two posts. 2. Don't make this topic into something about someone's avatar; if you can't figure it out, feel free to PM the person. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 3rd December 2010 13:09

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The meaning of life is life itself.

We were put on this earth to follow our dreams unabated.

I've found out how to make it make sense. Look around the Garden before the SeeD exam! I mean, go everywhere. Talk to everyone. Overhear conversations - there's a remake of "that movie about the sorceress and the knight" out! And if you encounter a T-Rexaur in the wild? Card that monstrosity, because what I got was the Shumi Tribe card!