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Quote (SilverMaduin @ 5th May 2007 16:57)

You're being "overly defensive over a sacred cow" yourself.

I want to point out quickly that a sacred cow is something that is placed upon a pedestal and thought to be so sacred that it's beyond argument. Illegal immigration is certainly not one. Gun control in the USA is though, due to the Second Amendment and the instinctive knee-jerk reaction many people have to the very notion. This does not interfere with your argument, and is only a semantic distinction.

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 5th May 2007 16:57)

You want to protect the guy just because he's an illegal immigrant, or at least you make it seem so.

Not at all. I wanted to point out the post was also off-topic and dripping with racism, thus the curious lack of dogpiling.

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 5th May 2007 16:57)

I think DrkMagimaster wanted to point out that:
a ) The shooting COULD have been prevented.
b ) They should've seen it coming, since he was mental
c ) the woman the guy was dating = the professor he shot, so he might have had his reasons, no matter how wrong they were.

Where you see an attack on immigrants, I see only a badly written post.

I see your side of the argument. What I'm surprised is that no one else saw mine. Since no further clarification seemed forthcoming, I decided to slam his post with my own blithering brand of criticism. Either way, we're all in agreement that illegal immigration isn't the problem, so everybody's happy!

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 5th May 2007 16:57)

You also stated, that explosives are hard to come by and hard to use.

Actually, I said they were more so than guns in the United States.

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 5th May 2007 16:57)

Bull****.
Any chemistry buff will, from material bought at the proverbial corner store, make explosives, that maybe aren't on par with C4, but ARE a real threat. Also, a simple timed fuse is frighteningly easy to build.
If a bomb threat is disregarded due to a line of thought similiar to what you mentioned, it's stupidity and lack of foresight.

Notice how you pointed out chemical buff? And again, in comparison to guns. Also, it's not even central to my argument, which is that without guns, 'terrorists' are vulnerable to force of numbers. A human being simply cannot store enough chemical energy to be a threat to so many people without such a weapon, hence Mob Justice.

I don't like that kind of world anymore than I'd want to live in the World of Ruin. But again, Rathyr is not wrong. Just deluded.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

You know, frikin' shot in the dark here but... maybe the second amendment isn't all that hot and shouldn't be held sacred and untouchable like some kind of divine idol to be worshipped? And, this is even more of a shot in the dark but, maybe american citizens also end up doing this sort of stuff, sometimes on an even larger and more gruesome scale?

Or am I missing the point here and all illegal immigrants are maniac xenophobes more likely to suffer from mental issues than american citizens, and that a person's nationality, race, gender, sexual orientation, or whathaveyou really does matter?

My mother is, by definition, an immigrant, and a tad weird sometimes. I'm over there right now for dinner. I'll make sure to have a very stern word with her about shooting up the nearby school - it's unhealthy and not very polite. :/ Being in the key demographic for this sort of thing, I think it's important for her to understand the issues at hand here, if she ever considers going batshit insane and shooting everyone.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 6th May 2007 22:39

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

For the most part, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut on this one. Mostly, because my views just aren't appropriate for this forum, and I'd hate to give somebody a mess to clean up. So, while I may not be brief, I'll try to be civil. At the very least, surely we can all be civil?

I, for one, actually never cared when we got bombthreats at school. I guess I'm somewhat of a nihilist, or at the very least, someone who appreciates a little bit of chaos in the world.

1) If someone was going to shoot up these schools they'd do it. Threats seldom amount to more than threats. Chuck Shepards News of the Weird actually just retired stories about people calling in threats to get out of things.

2) What the hell did I care if I was missing class? In fact, last year, there was a bomb threat nearly every day for a whole week. I didn't mind really, much less get angry at the person who called it in. Nor would I have turned in the person had I known. Who am I to stop a harmless threat. Yes. HARMLESS. Never at one point did I ever feel threatened during these "threats." No criminal worth his salt would tell all the people he was going to kill that he was going to do it, fully knowing that they'd just evacuate the building. And If anything, I was happy to take a walk from the building and chat with my friends. And if it was a legitimate thing?
[Epicurus] Then I might be dead, and oh well. What would I care? I'd be dead. [/EpicureanIdeals] That, and the guy who did it would be a legitimate criminal. Not some punk teenager with an authority complex, or a test in Algebra. Petty crooks at best. When you look at it from a different angle, what did they really do, besides inconvenience a couple of people? Was anybody hurt? Oh, I see. No.

To Silverlance: If we threw out one of the FEW parts of the Bill of Rights that MIGHT,(I actually like the 2nd amendment, but then again, I'm more of a social libertarian,) be bad, then what's to stop them from tossing free speech, fair trials and the rest of it?

The media is partially to blame, of course. Not everything is a bloody issue. Especially in this post-9/11 world of 24 hour news stations and LOLable paranoia. Seriously. If everyone would stop turning everything in to such a friggin ordeal, maybe we'd be in a better world. Or maybe we'd have a race in humans worth caring about a little. (that is to say, the human race. Not the whole ridiculousness up above with the immigrants.)

What I'm really trying to get at is this: Humans are probably the stupidest animal on the planet. The more you dwell on what the trash that our society puts out, and is putting out, the more pointless it becomes. Our "golden" society is really the problem. Mostly because we accommodate people who shouldn't be helped, (on the contrary, oftentimes they should be made to make due without the support of our "wonderful" government,) and leave half of our own out in the cold.

My thought is, if a bunch of highschool kids want to go around inflating their egos, no we shouldn't tolerate it, but we also shouldn't be waxing all emotional over it either. That goes double for name-calling, getting pissed off, and throwing feces at one another across the internet, because somebody MAY have posted something racist, which could have easily been ignored, but was instead trumped up in to something bigger than it is. Familiar. :rolleye:

That being said, I'd like to address a couple things:

Quote (GMH)

Some people also don't know where the line is between a harmless prank and a really bad idea.

These pranks ARE harmless. Last I checked, nobody was harmed. Unless somebody slipped and fell down or something when evacuating. A really bad idea? Yes. With the law where it is now, (with the punishment far exceeding the crime,) you'd have to be a moron to call in a bomb threat. A bad idea? Yes. Harmful? No.

Quote ("Fabulous Freebird")

...and somehow, it has to stop 'cuz shootings and violence is not something kids should have to deal with in school. Isn't television, movies, and games enough violence for somebody?

Fantastic thought. Now censor reality. Might wanna grab history while you're at it.

That being said, Highschools are a pretty violent place anyhow. There's always something going on where one dude beat the hell out of some other dude, or a couple of girls went at it, or a hockey fight in Gym class got out of hand. Violence is life. Don't like it? Lock yourself in a box, and make sure nobody delivers a newspaper. Again, these threats don't qualify as violence, so much as they're just jackassery. I'm all for ending violence in schools, but like Hamedo said in the VA Tech thread, that's all just pie in the sky. Bullying isn't going to end, which is a damn shame, because that seems to be where a large portion of ACTUAL school-shootings stem from.

Quote ("rarthyr")

Comes as no suprise to me, you americans have a poor system you will eventually destroy yourselves at this rate. No one should be allowed a gun, gun's are made for one thing - killing other people. Killing people is stupid, we should not kill our own race we should work to better ourselves but alas the human race is too retarded to notice this, so we have wars over pathetic things such as belief systems... Sometimes it's just nice to sit back and laugh at how stupid the human race really is.

Well, I see tact is a lost art. While it'd be fantastic for their to be no war, or guns, or anything, that's just not going to happen. What you fight there is instinct. Besides, I have nothing against a person arming themselves. For one, hunting is a great pass-time. A lot of my family hunts, and without guns, it'd just be bow season all year. Gah, I can't imagine hitting a rabbit at 200 yards with a bow. People are going to kill other people. It's unavoidable, it's been happening forever, and it isn't going to end. While Homo Sapiens-Sapiens might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, it's not because he kills members of his own race, it's more his inability to understand and deal with what evolution has given him that bothers me.
(Believe it or not, there can be good reasons to kill.)

Quote ("Quad")

I currently attend middle school, and even if this were to happen there (it wouldn't) the administration wouldn't tell us. I don't think we're trusted.

Or they'd just hear the pre-pubescent voice over the phone and laugh.

Quote ("Dragon_Fire)

...Considering you're part of the same race, it'd be nice if you went a little easier on yourself there buddy.

Well that leads me to believe I should clarify. Man has the capability to be intelligent, however, in my experiences, he seldom takes the time.


That's pretty much my 2 cents. Although at this point I'd say it's more like $1.76
















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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (MogMaster @ 6th May 2007 18:45)

To Silverlance: If we threw out one of the FEW parts of the Bill of Rights that MIGHT,(I actually like the 2nd amendment, but then again, I'm more of a social libertarian,) be bad, then what's to stop them from tossing free speech, fair trials and the rest of it?

Well there's a difference between something that is responsible for taking lives and something that can just plain offend people. Canada doesn't make it a right to own a gun and, while there is the occasional gun violence, it's not a very common thing.

Regardless, I don't believe you can fight fire with fire. IMO, the screening process for owning a gun should be something that includes having a legitimate reason for the purchase other than it being a right - there's a big difference between "defending yourself" and "killing someone who wants your wallet." Especially when someone goes out and buys a 12-gauge for "self-defense." That's... a little much.

You're right in saying this could lead to further amendmends to the constitution, but that works both ways - there's no reason why the constitution should be set in stone, especially if (emphasis on the "if," mind you) a part of it ends up revealing itself to be a problem.

I do agree, however, that people taking advantage of an "open door" to alter other parts of the constitution such as freedom of speech would be bad. It's a very touchy issue, and one I'm not qualified to give anything more than an opinion on.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

The American Constitution wasn't meant to be set in stone, in fact, there are specific measures in place to modify it! It was never meant to be defied or used as a measuring stick, and its own history is rife with mistakes.

Be aware that the argument 'revoking 2nd amendment would lead to removal of free speech, fair trials and etc' is a direct application of the Slippery Slope Fallacy. In fact, gun control is almost the canonical example of such fallacious logic. There is no justification for the revocation of the 1st amendment due to the revocation of the 2nd amendment, and none has been suggested in this thread. Unless of course, one suggests that free speech is the true reason why these threats to our schools are being taken so seriously.

Laughable, to say the least.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Surprisingly, I'll be brief.

Elessar: points taken. Last thing I want to say, is that a man desperate enough would devise a way to have the means to fend off mob justice.

That and the fact, that I know a person who on several occasions took on twenty to thirty people. (He's an exception from the usual though)

MogMaster: it's NOT harmless. It causes panic, uproar and other similiar social effects. Fear is a devastating weapon.

Also, WTF is it with guns in the US Constitutuion? Could someone provide me with insight or linkage to such via PM?

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 7th May 2007 06:08)

Also, WTF is it with guns in the US Constitutuion? Could someone provide me with insight or linkage to such via PM?

I think this is relevant enough to explain here.

The right to bear arms is guarenteed by the second amendment of the Bill of Rights. In context, this refers specifically to the ability to maintain a militia:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Given its wording ("free State") and historical context (the American revolution), it can be interpreted to mean more than that people have the right to own firearms to protect themselves, hunt, or stick in a cabinet. A lot of people, myself included, think that this is intended to guarentee the right to own military-grade firearms so that the people have a shot at rising up and taking back the government should the need arise, and that's the real reason why I cringe whenever an incident like the Virgina Tech shootings start to drum up support for further restricting the ownership of firearms.

Elessar is correct when he points out that the Bill of Rights is not meant to be set in stone and that amendments can (and sometimes should) be altered or repealed. This particular right, however, exists in the same context and for a similar reason as the rights to free speech and assembly, and I think attacking it on the principle of safety does provide detractors with motivation and justification for eroding other civil liberties.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

Quote

Elessar is correct when he points out that the Bill of Rights is not meant to be set in stone and that amendments can (and sometimes should) be altered or repealed. This particular right, however, exists in the same context and for a similar reason as the rights to free speech and assembly, and I think attacking it on the principle of safety does provide detractors with motivation and justification for eroding other civil liberties.

very, and I mean very well said.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Not really a counterpoint but more as an addendum to present Americans, I wanted to point out that the Amendments have been ignored and your basic rights eroded without ever revoking them. Via branding as an Enemy Combatant through through the Patriot Act has already devastated the due process of law (the 5th Amendment) while the FBI given carte blanche for privacy invasion as well as search and seizure (4th Amendment).

Neither required a repeal of the amendments, and indeed did come because of fear(for 'national security'). Motivation and justification for erosion of civil liberties already exists. Vigilance against the state is always a necessity and in the panic after 9/11, that was irresponsibly missing.

On the bright side, the Patriot Act has not led any further though, nor 1st and 2nd Amendments repealed in the oft-repeated slippery slope effect. So I don't see how people justify their feelings of distrust over gun control. After all, evidence exists to the contrary.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

I would like to point out that Elessar used an arguement demonstrating the slippery slope in action (despite being factually incorrect) to demonstrate that the slippery slope doesn't exist.

Also, his original point complained people were going off-topic by dogpiling against one person and not another, and in doing so, he has completely derailed this thread.

Moderator Edit

But you made it allllllllll better! -R51

Edit

Yes. Yes, I did. You may now proceed with the kissing of the feet.

This post has been edited by Dark Paladin on 8th May 2007 00:26

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Hey Cloudstrife, has there been any followup at your school since your OP?

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

First of all I'm a Junior at Arizona State University and our school did absolutely nothing in response to the tradegy at Virginia Tech. The people in charge at Virginia Tech should be shot. First of all there were teachers and students that refused to be in class with this kid, and on many occasions pointed out the fact that he was "insane."

Now there were two seperate shooting events by the same person. How does this happen? Well... he goes crazy shoots 9 people, is apprehended by authorities, and is let go because they "thought they had the wrong person." Then the kid comes back to school and shoots twenty more people and kills himself bringing the mortality rate to 31.

First of all if authority figures at Virginia Tech had done more than send an e-mail, students would have been aware of the first shooting (before the second one). Then letting the kid go was absolutely assanine.

I agree with cloudstrifes original post these little bastards are just trying to get out of school for one day and are taking advantage of such tragedys (columbine, santee, virginia tech, etc).

Now to move on to guns, guns are not the issue. The people using the guns are the issue. A gun itself has no possible way to kill anything. So that idea should be long forgotten.

Now for the constitution and the second ammendment. I have taken law classes since I am Pre-law. The second ammendment was written with the intention that people will always have the right to bear arms. The main thing everyone feared at that time was the states becoming another monarchy. The entire reasoning behind the constitution was to find a middle ground between a strong government and letting the people rule.

Yes the constitution was written with intentions of being changed, for reasons that the fore-fathers could not foresee, after all no one can see into the future. However, if they were to change the constitution and edit the second ammendment, then there would be no future possibility of a militia. Thus, there will be nothing to light a fire under the asses of the people in power.


P.S. a bomb threat is way worse than a gun threat. Does anyone remember the Oklahoma city bombings. Come on...


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Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant. If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven. Such is the rule of honor.

After this post this thread is closed.

Well Hamedo, nothing, except now the bathrooms are open, we have t sign in and out of our classes to go, and every 15 minutes a bathroom is locked and checked for graffiti.

DP, I completely agree.

Elassar, the only way that you can truly redeem your argument is if you claim that you were filibustering

Karasuman, you assume too much, If I start a thread there is nothing wrong with me wanting to keep it on-topic, and if I was ever offered the position of mod I would turn it down.

CA, there wasn't really a reason to revive this thread.
Since Kara and Elassar derailed it completely.

Moderator Edit

Heh, closing the topic after you have time to put in some shots at people who posted in it. Nice. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 20th May 2007 13:02

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"