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Here's an interesting train of thought I've been on recently...

So each Final Fantasy has it's own independant story and world, but other than the title, what classifies these games as Final Fantasy?

Were you to judge from the beginning, it would be crystals, but as the games progressed, the point of the game has migrated further from that thought. FFV was the last one for awhile that in fact focussed on the crystals.

In FFVI, I think the closest you get to crystals (and I'm only about 25% through the game, so correct me if I'm wrong) is the esper crystals, definitely something to collect, but Kefka wanted to destroy the world.

FFVII is quite similar. Depending on how liberal you get with definition of crystal, materia maybe, but otherwise it's all about saving the world from sephiroth.

FFVIII is very limited on the crystal lore front.

FFIX on the other hand, I think even had a slogan at one time the the effect of, "The search for the crystals returns," or something like that.

FFX + FFX-2 are a required lumping just because same world and same lack of crystals, but in an extreme note, X-2 ties off the loose ends there with a revelation by the character named SHINRA that the farplane could possibly be harnessed as an almost unlimited energy supply, but that it would take so long to do that none of them would ever be alive to see it. So VII and X are crystal-less in unison. lol... materia and spheres, one's a round ability on a grid, the other is a round ability on a weapon.

FFXII I've just started to delve into, but from what I've seen so far with Nethecite, it sounds like energy bearing/absorbing stones have become the theme of the story so far.

So 6,7,8, and the 10s all deviate from the original stories of crystal collection, yet with the exception of 8, these would go down as some of the favorites of many players. What then, do these games have in common? 6,7 and 8 are all modern (I actually think that was 8's real problem, they tried to make it so realistic that it no longer was. Kind of like overacting in a B movie) I think the main thing that ties all these games together, and to some other titles in the series, is war amongst the people. 6 had the returners, 7 had avelanche, 8 had a blatent war between different gardens, as well as SEEDs, 10 had the fights between machina users and non-machina users, as well as the many fiascos caused by religious beliefs. 12 also falls into this category, with Dalmasca trying to liberate itself from an empire. FFIV also had hints of this militaristic world conquest, but it was for the crystals.

So what is everyone else's ideas on what makes an FF game and FF game (other than the title)

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If internal struggles were as enjoyable and glamorous as the self conflicted wars within video game characters, we would all be statues, reveling in perpetual self war. -Me

Play me on Rock Band 2, GH-WT, or any other Xbox GH!
Xbox Gamertag-MeanJerry

I'm pretty sure magicite's got a crystalline form of some sort; FF7's materia appears from the earth and forms like crystals, too. FFIX seems to only have crystalcentric stuff on Disc 4, but in reality, everything involving eidolons and the sought-after jewels are...well, crystals.

So what characteristics make an FF game an FF game? Well, a great battle engine and minigames, a relatively sappy plot involving defeating a giant [corporation/religion/madman/tyrant] with the whole falling-in-love thing poured in there, and lots of name-dropping to make the games seem 'connected' in some way. Besides the usual epic scale of the game, no matter the platform, spectacular GFX is probably what I'd say's the most identifiable trait.

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

A few things not yet mentioned are airships; Cid, Biggs, and Wedge and chocobos. Also FFs have many spells in common. I'd say a certain element of sillyness is in every one too, they aren't completely serious.

This post has been edited by BDZ on 19th April 2007 18:35

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Status:
FF6 -- Finished! Yeah!
FF7 -- Finished (easily, and without KOtR)
FF8 -- End of Disc 3
Secret of Evermore--Leveling up for Salabog

"Go sit over there. Put your seatbelt on."--Squall

Don't forget Magic and Chocobos, and I guess a job system fits into a lot of the games as well, i.e. summoners, fighters, thieves, whether or not you get to pick them in the game.

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We, who cannot see into tomorrow, have no way of knowing... But... But... If you don't find dreams yourself... if you don't capture your ambitions... happiness won't just come to you.

Putting everything in spoiler, just in case.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

In the beginning there were four light warriors who sought to restore the power of the crystals. Four elemental Fiends, the first boss being also the last boss (I was actually surprised by this).
1 had airships and the first appearence of Bahamut in the series. First Excalibur, Masamune, Ribbons and probably a lot of other "frists".

FF2 has, as a first, Cid, an evil empire, dragoons, Leviathan and chocobos...also, for the first time it had actual characters, with name, backstory and, well, character. It was very StarWars-esque and had a unique skill system. My personal fave.

FF3 went back to saving the world with the power of the Crystals. It also went on about balance of Light and Darkness, the protagonists being again dubbed "Light Warriors", features an entertaining cast of support characters and introduces summonning.

FF4 again has crystals, and an "evil empire", which we find later is being manipulated by Golbeze, who is being manipulated by Zemus...4 was, in my opinion, about what happens when someone lets outside conditions control him (Kain, Golbeze) and what happens when we resist that control (Cecil).

FF5 once again gives us the Four Light Warriors who fight to protect the Crystals. The big twist this time is, you screw up and the Crystals shatter. It again has the "dark mage villain" (similiar to Golbeze in some respects) it also mentions a greater evil, whose actions ExDeath (cheesy name, dude) reinacts.

FF6 gives us an impressive cast of, what was it, fourteen characters? It also has, for the first part an evil empire, for the second a ravaged world and all throughout a cackling, insane clown of a villain. Many subplots gave this game an unmatched variety.

Evil corporation, madman on the loose, hunted by all and mystery-shrouded plot is what we find in FF7. First one in 3D, features a darker tone than it's predecessors. One of the most memorable villains in gaming history.

FF8 had...well a commando of kiddies, and a weird plot....I'll stop here, so as not to to bash 8 purposelessly.

9 was the last one on the PSone and a bit of "back to basics" with what could be called a "retro look" and a nice feel. It sadly also brought back the Deaus Ex Machina from FF4, but what the heck.

Due to my limited knowledge of FF10 I'll just skip it.

FF11 is a constantly expanding world and is quite entertaining, but the newer additions are coming back to FFs roots (Hooray for Blue mages!)

12 gives us an Empire only seemingly evil (well, I sympathize, anyway) and a group of heros fighting to uphold the will of the "gods".

What makes an FF? You start small and end epic. You fight a lot. There will be valor and cruelty. And there will be recurring themes. Cid, airships, chocobos, moogles, a tower of plot importance, Crescent, Marlboros and other things like that.
And in the end you save the world, even though the protagonist(s) would NEVER have suspected that in the beginning.


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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Personally, I don't think the FFs past 5 are truly FFs. That's the point where the main "theme" the games shared suddently changes, as does the setting in general.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

In FF 1, you play 4 warriors chosen by the crystals to resurect them and stop Chaos's little time loop and the Fiends from destroying (essentially) the world.

In FF 2, well, this one's a bit of an odd-ball. I'd say the main FF "theme" hadn't settled in yet by then and Square was still experimenting. You fight the Paramecia empire for a reason I don't quite remember (possibly "taking over the world.")

In FF 3, again I'm not 100% clear on this anymore, but you play, again, 4 warriors chosen by the crystals to prevent the destruction of the world. Haven't played this one in years though, so the details are sketchy.

In FF 4, you play warriors not quite chosen by the crystals exclusively but still fighting to protect them so the world isn't destroyed by Zemus through the awakening of the Giant of Babil.

In FF 5, you play 4 warriors (technically 5) chosen by the crystals to protect the world from Ex-Death, whose awakening will be assured by the destruction of the crystals.

Other than 2, these games all share many common points.

- Your characters are chosen by the crystals (4 being the exception, but not entirely.)
- The bad guy seeks to destroy or obtain the crystals.
- The bad guy also wants to destroy the world.
- Your duty is to protect the crystals, first and foremost, then to take out the bad guy.
- There are 4 (or sometimes 8) crystals, each based on one of the four basic elements.
- The setting is medieval-ish, with a few rare technological elements.

Now we move onto the "non-FFs."

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

In FF 6, you control members of a rebel group called the Returners who want to prevent the Empire from using the Espers to enslave the world with magic. In the end the Empire is disbanded forcibly and Kefka, one of its ex-members, becomes some insane sorta-god bent on destroying the world. There are no crystals.

In FF 7, you control members of a rebel group called AVALANCH who want to prevent Shinra from using the Lifestream to enslave the world with the political and financial power it allows them to gain. In the end Shinra is disbanded and Sephiroth, one of its elite SOLDIER unit's ex-members, becomes some insane sorta-god bent on destroying the world. There are no crystals.

Nobody cares about FF 8. But you're still part of a rebel group called SeeD who wants to prevent the Sorceress, Edea, from using her power to enslave the world. In the end, Edea forfeits her sorceress powers and Ultimecia, a sorceress controlling everything behind the scenes, is revealed to be some insane uber-powerful sorceress bent on... compressing time. Yeah, whatever. There are no crystals.

Memory's a bit hazy here too. In FF 9, you control members of a group of thieves/theater group called Tantalus who eventually want to prevent Queen Brahne from using the Eidolons to enslave the world with the power it allows her to gain. In the end she dies and Kuja, one of her "associates," becomes some insane sorta-god bent on destroying the world. There IS a crystal: jammed into the game at the last possible moment.

In FF 10, you control members of a group of guardians who want to stop Sin from destroying Spira. In the end Sin is (sorta) destroyed and Yu-Yevon, the floating black squid controlling Sin, is revealed to be some insane summoner bent on summoning Sin again to destroy Spira. There are no crystals.

In FF 12, you control members of a rebel group who want to stop the country of Arcadia from taking over. In the end Arcadia is revealed to be a terrible place with half of its population crippled by its unjust rule and you face off against the man pretty much responsible for the war effort. There are no crystals.

Common points again.

- There are no crystals, with one exception.
- There is often a replacement element for crystals (materia, the pendants, etc..)
- You're almost always part of a rebel group.
- The bad guys are always an organisation of some sort (using the term loosely.)
- The REAL bad guy always has ties with this organisation, and is very frequently responsible for its eventual collapse.
- The bad guy almost always wants to destroy the world, but his/her predecessor is generally content with just ruling it.
- The setting is rarely medievalish (industrial revolution in 6, futuristic in 7 and 8...) but most towns maintain the medieval feel regardless.

The name FF stuck. It's a great marketting gimmick - put a familiar name people like on the game, toss in some easily-insertable minor elements from previous games (chocobos, the crystal theme, ultima, weapons/spells/enemies/items/etc with names from previous games...) and voila - you've created another game in a series whose sole connection to previous iterations are the aforementionned elements.

Heck, by 12, the game practically becomes an MMORPG-style adventure RPG. Even the genre is changing.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 19th April 2007 22:17

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 19th April 2007 17:15)

Nobody cares about FF 8. But you're still part of a rebel group called SeeD who wants to prevent the Sorceress, Edea, from using her power to enslave the world. In the end, Edea forfeits her sorceress powers and Ultimecia, a sorceress controlling everything behind the scenes, is revealed to be some insane uber-powerful sorceress bent on... compressing time. Yeah, whatever. There are no crystals.

lots of people care about FF VIII, practically all the ff fans i know (besides people here) love VIII and consider it their favourite. (and by the way, the Garden is a military acadamy, not a rebel force bent on the eventual goal of killing edea. The SeeD are mercenaries, the mission to kill the sorceress is a mission they got hired for. they dont just want to kill sorceresses because they are nusances (sp?), they just did because it was a job they got)
but i think what makes a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy game, is the story, you are always a band of unlikely heroes, trying to better the world, in which a final battle is iminant, the theme will ALWAYS be epic, it WILL get remixed, and at one point (if it isnt already) it WILL become orchestrated

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Aujourdhui a commence avec toi.

Quote (dont chocobos rule? @ 19th April 2007 23:59)

Quote (Silverlance @ 19th April 2007 17:15)

Nobody cares about FF 8. But you're still part of a rebel group called SeeD who wants to prevent the Sorceress, Edea, from using her power to enslave the world. In the end, Edea forfeits her sorceress powers and Ultimecia, a sorceress controlling everything behind the scenes, is revealed to be some insane uber-powerful sorceress bent on... compressing time. Yeah, whatever. There are no crystals.

lots of people care about FF VIII, practically all the ff fans i know (besides people here) love VIII and consider it their favourite. (and by the way, the Garden is a military acadamy, not a rebel force bent on the eventual goal of killing edea. The SeeD are mercenaries, the mission to kill the sorceress is a mission they got hired for. they dont just want to kill sorceresses because they are nusances (sp?), they just did because it was a job they got)

amen!

actually you beat me to defending FF8

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delete me

To me, the qualities that make Final Fantasy have nothing to do with specific plot elements. Before FFXII, I might have included turn-based combat, but did the change from ATB really make it no longer worthy of the name?

At this point, Final Fantasy games are epic fantasy RPGs without action/adventure combat that show a certain level of commitment to production quality. But that hardly encompasses the entire series. Before FFVII, the games weren't nearly as big on the theatrical end of things.

Really, the series name is just a stamp of quality. That's why certain games in the series are so harshly criticized--not only are they craptastic in the first place, but they're also failing to live up to the high expectations we have from the series.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

My thoughts are pretty similar to karasuman's.
The Final Fantasy stamp is meant to guarantee you having by far the best RPG that is currently on the market upon it's release. With characters and stoyline that keep you immersed and interested and gameplay that is challenging and fun.

A game with this stamp, that does not live up to these expectations has committed pure blasphemy. A game such as FFX-2. (Admittedly I never played it, but it did not sound in any way overly impressive).

But all the other games I have played from FFVII to FFXII have easily acheived this status, even FF VIII!

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

Saying that the Final Fantasy games after 5 are not real Final Fantasy games just because a few elements change is like saying the Paper Mario series are not proper Mario games because game play has changed. Sure, they have a different feel, but essentially they keep what everyone loves about them.

- Characters that are so well fleshed out that some you come to love (Vivi) and some you loatrhe (Kefka)

- Engrossing story lines with hours of game play that have twists better than an M. Night Shamalan movie

- Dozens upon dozens of secrets ranging from hidden weapons (Spoon Dagger) to characters (Umaro)

- Many names and characters that you instantly recognize and actively search for (Chocobo & Catrot) that feel comfortable (Fenix Down) just to see the name

- Gameplay that is simple to pick up on and so addicting that it's near impossible to put down

These, to me, make the Final Fantasy series, as a whole, the best series and what qualifies these games as Final Fantasy games. Chrono Trigger was an AWESOME game, but lacked the Final Fantasy feel & familiarity as did the Secret of Mana series (awesome games in their own right)

Quote (Syreni @ 20th April 2007 12:41)

Saying that the Final Fantasy games after 5 are not real Final Fantasy games just because a few elements change is like saying the Paper Mario series are not proper Mario games because game play has changed. Sure, they have a different feel, but essentially they keep what everyone loves about them.

Well with all due respect...

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Characters that are so well fleshed out that some you come to love (Vivi) and some you loatrhe (Kefka)

This can be true of any RPG, not FF exclusively. And it's rather subjective - many aspects of the characters' developement is neglected generally. For instance, what DO we know of Kefka? There's only one line in the game about his past: he was one of the first magitek knights, and something snapped in him during the infusion. Was he a soldier who made his way through the ranks and attained the position of Ghestal's private mage? Was he just picked at random and attained his position after being infused? What, exactly, does he do in the Empire? He doesn't seem to be much of a commander, judging from how people in the Imperial Camp talk about him and considering General Leo seems to be his superior (at least, during the Imperial Camp scene.) There's very little information about him, just actions seen during the game.

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- Engrossing story lines with hours of game play that have twists better than an M. Night Shamalan movie

Same as above. Personally, I thought Front Mission I had a storyline far more involving than most FFs; emphasis on the "personally." Not all twists are good either - we have good twists like the whole "you're a clone" thing that screws with people's mind yes, but we also have that orphan bit from VIII... :P

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- Dozens upon dozens of secrets ranging from hidden weapons (Spoon Dagger) to characters (Umaro)

Again, this isn't FF-specific. Anyone ever found the Chris Houlihan (or something) room in Zelda III? That one stayed far more secret than getting Gogo or the Mimic job. ;) Side-quests, secret characters, and hidden dungeons are pretty much expected in modern games...

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- Many names and characters that you instantly recognize and actively search for (Chocobo & Catrot) that feel comfortable (Fenix Down) just to see the name

THIS is true. Do note though that none of these are any vital to the game. You could've called FF8's Cid, "Mr. Johnny," and it wouldn't have made a difference to the storyline because it's just a label touted around meaninglessly - the Cid in FF8 is nothing like the one in 7, or 6. Or 5 for that matter. Or 4. Or 3. Or 2. Or 9. Or 10... Or 12. See where I'm going with this? ;)

This, though, is the biggest FF-specific element. You won't see chocobos in, say, Chrono Trigger.

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- Gameplay that is simple to pick up on and so addicting that it's near impossible to put down

Again, not game-specific. Possibly least of all, in fact. And given the debates on which FF is the best and the often near-violent arguments as to which is the worse (actually, that's pretty unanimous... ;) ), it's a little hard to apply this to every FF objectively.

While I fully respect your opinion and your right to express it, and mean no offense, I disagree strongly that these are elements that are specific to FF in any way (save for the names.) They're much, much too subjective. FF is not a god-like series by any stretch of the imagination, but its die-hard fans like to think it is. Some FFs were very good, some were outright terrible.

A game is defined by its contents: mechanics (which have become more and more different from one FF to the next), storyline (which seems to follow two different loosely-defined templates in this case), and the general environment the game unfolds in (generally medieval-ish in FF's case, but much less so after V.) Not by one's personal appreciation and general opinion of the series as a whole.

Seems you're new here, judging from this being your second post. Welcome to CoN :) Hopefully my post didn't sound hostile - my appologies if it did. I can come on a little strong sometimes, but I mean nothing wrong by it. Pleasure having you around, mate. :)

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 20th April 2007 18:18

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

No offense taken, I like to see where everyone stands. I love the early Final Fantasy games 1, 2/4, 5, and 6 as well as Tactics, Mystic Quest and part 9 (ok, so it's not an early game). I didn't care for the rest because the "Fantasy" aspect seemed to be replaced by more technology.
For me, though, each of those aspects make the game a Final Fantasy. As much as I love Dragon Quest, the story lines aren't as engrossing for me.
True, some characters receive more background than others but you get enough about each to develop more than just passing interests in them. Vivi was so lovable and Kefka was a pain in the butt! I always cringed at his vorpal laugh. Most games give in to basic characterizing, though, which really disinterests me. Secret of Mana had a generic hero, Chrono never said a word, Will (Illusion of Gaia) was rather drab, and most heroes of the Dragon Quest games were merely a nameless young boy who finds glory, eventually. They sometime seem as just tools to move the story whereas most Final Fantasy characters seem real in a story they shape (except the dude from part 8, he was just a tool).
An argument could be made to defend any story of any RPG, though. Final Fantasy's, though, are known for their ground breaking, earth shattering, slap you in the face twists. Aeris dying? Terra's an Esper? Wow!
I forgot to mention the fantastic music. Again, this could apply to any game that a person favors, but these all stick out as to what makes the Final Fantasy series a complete series to me

Well, that's all good. To you, personally, FF is about the multimedia experience and the way the storyline and characters unfold. I can understand that - many RPGs lack that sort of thing (personally I can't stand it when the protagonist doesn't talk - the day they make an FF with a main character who nods and gestures instead of talking will be a dark day indeed...)

I think the major difference between our opinions lies in the fact you consider all FFs to be a continuous serie (not in the sense that FF 2 is the sequel to FF 1, but that they all belong to a homogenous group; correct me if I'm wrong) whereas I feel they went from being that to just good RPGs with a few names switched around to be able to market them under the FF label. Wether I'm right or not, well, that's how I see it. I'd love to see another FF like II, III, or IV. II because of the system (Romancing SaGa III is a great game by Square using this system), III for the same reasons (luckily there IS such a game: FF V), and IV because I loved the storyline and general feel of it. Also because it's the only one of the first 5 FFs that has truly individual characters (II sorta did, but because of the way you can build up characters and the lack of unique abilities, it doesn't count..)

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."