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Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 16th January 2007 04:03)

Every president, save JFK, has been Protestant. It's the same reason that women weren't given equal rights until the 1920s; doesn't the Bible cast women as sinners? If I'm wrong, tell me, but it's what I've gathered from my various readings (read: Dan Brown). I don't mean to sound ignorant, but if I am, tell me. It would be the reason I got the Protestants and Catholics mixed up, anyhow.

All this and more is why I'm a devout Atheist and why I have been since I understood anything about religion

Quote ("Dragon_Fire)

I don't know about the options in the U.S. as much as in Canada, but we're fairly pro-choice here, birth-control is easily obtainable at any Pharmacy or Drug Store and it's in-expensive. Thanks to our Medicare system, you can walk into any Clinic (CLSC) here in Quebec and receive birth control pills and other contraceptives and whatever information you might need, and so long as you're over 16, abortions are offered at your own discretion, privately. This goes a long way in helping, but unfortunately, you have to make an effort to get these services, and not everyone can be bothered, so situations like these will still happen from time to time.

It's pretty much the same here, except instead of laziness, the problem in Britain is the stupidity of the young people. A large proportion of people around 14-18 seem to think that contraception is "uncool" or some other bull like that, so we get a lot of teenage pregnancies and STIs. Not forgetting, with so many school-leavers forgoing University, they don't know how to raise their kids, causing more problems.

I'm generalizing a little; of course there are good teenage parents and those who take precautions, but they are the minority, in my eyes.

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My deviantART profile

Heh. Well, while I'll refrain from taking part in the debate (...dear god, I must be getting old. ) I do know of a future situation like this in the works though, and it certainly makes me wonder how people can be so free with parenting, or rather allowing people to be parents.

Anyways. Let's introduce the culprits. We'll call them Shawn and Tracey, mainly because I don't care if they read this and the only other person who could potentially read this, know me, and recognize the names already knows and has the same opinion. So hey, Shawn and Tracey.

Shawn and Tracey have been going out for about a year. They now live together. When they moved out, despite the conditions in their lease, they bought two dogs. Two dogs they couldn't take care of (we call this the "oooh, this sounds like a good idea" factor - it's worn off now.) Before that, Shawn had rats which he couldn't take care of either (they'd die of malnurishment and other causes, and he figured it'd be bright to let the rats eat the dead - hey, free food.)

Neither of them have a job. They live off of social services.Shawn is "trying" to find a job but given his history of abject lazyness (ie, sleeping in until 5 pm) and being late (don't expect him to be there at 10 if he says he'll be there at 10 - make plans for 10:30-11:00) finding a job will only mean a few weeks of income for him anyhow. I wish I were just being negative - this guy IS my friend after all - but he's been fired before for simply sleeping in instead of going to work.

I haven't seen their appartment yet. I've seen Shawn's appartment at his mother's, and it was rather messy. Without his mother to clean up, I can picture things being worse. By all accounts, he empties out the dogs' litterbox through his window. Plop!

Ok. So, this guy (in his early 20s) and his girlfriend (19 I think) are just two slobs living on their own. No big deal, right? Well, turns out Tracey is pregnant.

It's not easy visualizing just how horrible this will be without knowing these people, I'll admit. Seriously, I mean, all's I can relate are a few choice morsels of information. Not the whole picture. But trust me, knowing there are worse cases out there really put things in perspective for me. Seriously.

I fully expect the poor kid to get carried off by a stray cat. Or somehow run over by a 747. Knowing them, it'll happen.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

If I was in your shoes Siverlance, I'm not so sure I would be calling such people friends. It sounds like they have a blatant disregard for anything living, with the exception of themsleves... possibly. Not my kind of people anyway.

And yes, the mere thought of such people looking after children sounds a nightmare.

This post has been edited by fatman on 17th January 2007 12:03

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

I think it's wrong for people to assume she was drugged up. Maybe she was really a good mother and had tried many things to prevent her son from leaving home. For all we know she could be ones of the best parents out there, but then all of a sudden the kid manages to get out.
Now I suppose it'd be stupid to blame the kid, I can't even remember having freewill at that age (surely you understand what I mean) - so that means blame the parent. Fine... but don't go claiming that she was a terrible parent in the allround just because of one event.
From the posts I've read in this topic I'm starting to think that everyone here is a heartless...

This post has been edited by ataraxy2 on 17th January 2007 13:20

ataraxy...dude, the mother was asleep in her disgustingly nasty apartment while her child was missing. Her other child was eating old spaghetti off of the floor and when police woke the woman to tell her that her baby was on a busy interstate, her only reply was "He got out again?"

AGAIN?

I don't know about you but I would call that bad parenting. So, no, they are not heartless....well, most of them anway.

This post has been edited by GooseKnight on 17th January 2007 14:19

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"You broke my f***ing sitar, mother f***er."
-Anton A. Newcombe

"Yet another 'use your sword to magically deliver death from above' character comes in somewhere between the Living Cabbage and Milkmaid character options." -red_beard_neo

Quote

ataraxy...dude, the mother was asleep  in her disgustingly nasty apartment while her child was missing. Her other child was eating old spaghetti off of the floor and when police woke the woman to tell her that her baby was on a busy interstate, her only reply was "He got out again?"

I suppose you're right there... but the media usually exagerate these things, just trying to con everyone into thinking what they want them to. We don't know for sure just how she said that. She could have been terrified - we can't be sure.

On another note...
LMAO! I just noticed that I wrote 'a heartless' instead of 'heartless'

This post has been edited by ataraxy2 on 17th January 2007 14:24

Good Lord. [emoticon with eyes buried in hand]

How many people are seriously agreeing with the scenario that kara and orinocou are suggesting? That level of government intrusion would be far beyond anything allowable in the U.S. Constitution and (hopefully) anyone else's. Also, marriage being a minority and the dangerously straddling birth rate in this country are big enough problems without putting an absurd parenting lisencing system in place.

Quote (Quad @ 15th January 2007 23:02)

Every president, save JFK, has been Protestant. It's the same reason that women weren't given equal rights until the 1920s; doesn't the Bible cast women as sinners? If I'm wrong, tell me, but it's what I've gathered from my various readings (read: Dan Brown). I don't mean to sound ignorant, but if I am, tell me. It would be the reason I got the Protestants and Catholics mixed up, anyhow.

The first sentence and a half make no sense. If the elected leader of a country being Protestant is directly related to women's rights, then why do women have any rights at all now? If Catholics are so much for women's rights, then why did women get their rights (and all of them, as you seem to indicate) 40 years before Kennedy was elected?
Yes, the Bible cast women as sinners. Do you know who else the Bible casts as sinners? Men. Eve bit the fruit first, but it's made very clear that they both share in the responsibility.
First of all, a single novel doesn't count as various readings. Working at a Christian bookstore, the folks at home office decided to send out a memo to the sales floors so all the clerks could have some basic knowledge about The Da Vinci Code in case anyone asked (no one did, they just bought the counter-arguement books). It only gave three of the main fallacies of the book. Most notable being the Priory of Sion. In the mid twentieth century, a historion used the Priory of Sion to track the bloodline of the French crown post-Revolution. Surprise, surprise, said historian was French royalty, based on the geneology he wrote. In the 1960s, he testified under oath that he made the whole thing up and that the Priory of Sion never existed.

Quote (Sinslayer @ 16th January 2007 15:50)

Not forgetting, with so many school-leavers forgoing University, they don't know how to raise their kids, causing more problems.

What does going to college have to do with the ability to raise kids?

And I'm glad so many single people here are experts on parenting.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 17th January 2007 18:45)

Quote (Sinslayer @ 16th January 2007 15:50)

Not forgetting, with so many school-leavers forgoing University, they don't know how to raise their kids, causing more problems.

What does going to college have to do with the ability to raise kids?

I was generalizing a little. Generally, less educated people are not as good parents. Think about it - if you get a decent education, you'll know more about how to look after your kids, in terms of health, proper excercise, etc.

Yes, there are a lot of terrible middle-class parents. It's just an average.

Quote ("Dark Paladin")

And I'm glad so many single people here are experts on parenting.

Single parents, if you ask me, are better than bad married parents.

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My deviantART profile

Quote (Sinslayer @ 17th January 2007 14:51)

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 17th January 2007 18:45)

Quote (Sinslayer @ 16th January 2007 15:50)

Not forgetting, with so many school-leavers forgoing University, they don't know how to raise their kids, causing more problems.

What does going to college have to do with the ability to raise kids?

I was generalizing a little. Generally, less educated people are not as good parents. Think about it - if you get a decent education, you'll know more about how to look after your kids, in terms of health, proper excercise, etc.

Yes, there are a lot of terrible middle-class parents. It's just an average.

Booksmarts does not translate to parenting skills.
Education does not translate to intelligence.
Wealth does not translate to intelligence.
Intelligence does not translate to common sense.
Colleges train you in one specialty and give you a broad overview of other, basic subjects, none of which has anything to do with raising kids. Unless you major in child psychology or elementary education or the like, then college will not help you in preparation for kids. All it will do is help you prepare to set up a system where you can financially support kids more easily.

Quote (Sinslayer @ 17th January 2007 14:51)

Quote ("Dark Paladin")

And I'm glad so many single people here are experts on parenting.

Single parents, if you ask me, are better than bad married parents.

Okay.
I'm glad so many never-been-married, never-had-kids people here are experts on parenting.

One good parent and one bad parent is better than one bad parent.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

I'm afraid that I'll regret it later, but I'm throwing my two cents(pense/grosz/whatever sub-currency you use) into this discussion.

DP, people without some common sense and brains don't bother for higher education, so it's a safe guess that college/university graduates will be good parents, even if not all of them.

Quote (DarkPaladin)

Quote (Sinslayer)

Quote (DarkPaladin)

And I'm glad so many single people here are experts on parenting.

Single parents, if you ask me, are better than bad married parents.

Okay.
I'm glad so many never-been-married, never-had-kids people here are experts on parenting.

One good parent and one bad parent is better than one bad parent.

I take it you're married, have children and lots of parenting experience. You're talking as if you did.


Sin, higher education does NOT make a good parent. Also, you said you were an atheist ever since you understood religion (or something like that, correct me if I'm wrong). What do you understand of religion?



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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 17th January 2007 20:26)

Quote (DarkPaladin)

Quote (Sinslayer)

Quote (DarkPaladin)

And I'm glad so many single people here are experts on parenting.

Single parents, if you ask me, are better than bad married parents.

Okay.
I'm glad so many never-been-married, never-had-kids people here are experts on parenting.

One good parent and one bad parent is better than one bad parent.

I take it you're married, have children and lots of parenting experience. You're talking as if you did.

I'm not married, I don't have kids and I have no parenting experience. I'm a teenager, duh.

I know from friends and family experience. Maybe that isn't the same as having a single parent myself, I don't know.

Quote ("SilverMadiun")

Sin, higher education does NOT make a good parent.

Didn't you already say:

Quote ("SilverMaduin")

DP, people without some common sense and brains don't bother for higher education, so it's a safe guess that college/university graduates will be good parents, even if not all of them.

And finally,

Quote ("SilverMaduin")

Also, you said you were an atheist ever since you understood religion (or something like that, correct me if I'm wrong). What do you understand of religion?

My understanding is that religion is believing what has ben said by people, and has not been proved scientifically. Also, it's blindly following leaders without question, which I think is never a good thing.

My views on religion aren't particularly improved by the numerous religious-fueled wars and fighting (not forgetting interpretations of holy books that encourage opression of races, genders or homosexuals). I know that they don't represent all religious peoples, but there seems to be an alarming amount of the above.

This post has been edited by Sinslayer on 18th January 2007 16:02

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My deviantART profile

Quote (Sinslayer @ 17th January 2007 14:51)

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 17th January 2007 18:45)

Quote (Sinslayer @ 16th January 2007 15:50)

Not forgetting, with so many school-leavers forgoing University, they don't know how to raise their kids, causing more problems.

What does going to college have to do with the ability to raise kids?

I was generalizing a little. Generally, less educated people are not as good parents. Think about it - if you get a decent education, you'll know more about how to look after your kids, in terms of health, proper excercise, etc.

Yes, there are a lot of terrible middle-class parents. It's just an average.

Quote ("Dark Paladin")

And I'm glad so many single people here are experts on parenting.

Single parents, if you ask me, are better than bad married parents.

I never thought I'd say it, but I have to agree with DP.

My parents both never made it to College, my father never even got through high school and he's still one of the most intelligent people that I know. They might not know a damn about human biology or "proper exercise" apart from the basics you generally pick up but let me tell you, while not perfect they were damn good parents to me. I can say the same for most of the people raised around me in my community.

Yes, there are cases of middle-class parents not being able to properly raise their children, but that has everything to do with the individual person and their own circumstance, rather than the class they fall into. Your average is based on what, exactly? Before you generalize something, think about what you're saying and do a bit of actual research. It might just save you from saying something stupid like this.

Furthermore, you stated that you're a "devout atheist" in response to Quad's mention of the United States Presidents being Protestant. Again, like DP said, that is irrelevant to women obtaining rights and furthermore how can you be a "devout atheist"? Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity or omnipotent presence. You're deeply devoted to believing in nothing? That sounds slightly Nihilistic. That you further claim that you understand religion based on it not being scientifically proven or that it's blind servitude, but you haven't clarified which religion you're speaking of. Stating that you're understanding is based on it not being proven is like me arguing that "it hasn't been disproven, either." It's flawed logic, at best. If you regard religion in general as merely blind servitude, then I suggest you pick up a book or two and actually research into the beliefs.

DP, to clarify, Kara was suggesting that Orinocou's scenario would invade entirely on Civil Rights and was an altogether ridiculous suggestion in the first place, through satire.

This post has been edited by Dragon_Fire on 17th January 2007 20:53

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Quote (Sinslayer @ 17th January 2007 21:37)

Quote ("SilverMadiun")

Sin, higher education does NOT make a good parent.

Didn't you already say:

Quote ("SilverMaduin")

DP, people without some common sense and brains don't bother for higher education, so it's a safe guess that college/university graduates will be good parents, even if not all of them.

I meant, that people who go to higher study are usually those who'd have been good parents anyway. Higher studies don't make you a good parent.

The "parenting experience" bit was directed DP, Sin.

Also, from what I see, you know naught of religion, but if you want to discuss it, PM me.


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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 17th January 2007 20:48)

Furthermore, you stated that you're a "devout atheist" in response to Quad's mention of the United States Presidents being Protestant. Again, like DP said, that is irrelevant to women obtaining rights and furthermore how can you be a "devout atheist"? Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity or omnipotent presence. You're deeply devoted to believing in nothing? That sounds slightly Nihilistic.

Damn, I fail at psychology.

Okay, if "devout" isn't the right word, how about "committed"?

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My deviantART profile

Quote (Sinslayer @ 17th January 2007 16:51)

Damn, I fail at psychology.

Okay, if "devout" isn't the right word, how about "committed"?

What does psychology have to do with anything?

What I'm saying is that I'm questioning the amount of thought and time you put into actually looking into religions and atheism because I don't think you understand them, just like I don't think you understood what you were saying when you suggested class and college education as a grounds for better parenting. You said you're 13, right? So I don't entirely hold that against you, as I don't think you have the life-experience to fully understand.

Anyways, I've gone off topic, if you want to continue this, we can move it to P.M.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 17th January 2007 20:26)

DP, people without some common sense and brains don't bother for higher education, so it's a safe guess that college/university graduates will be good parents, even if not all of them.

C'mon now you can't seriously think that... So by default, people without common sense or "brains" won't be good parents?

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

As far as I'm concerned, stupid people are free to have as many children as they want. Unfortunately, society does need people to work the bottom, and alot of the kids who have shitty parents are going to get stuck there.

I'm with DarkPaladin. As somebody who seriously wants the government out of my shit, I can honestly say, that while some people are going to make shitty parents, it's not the governments say whether or not they can breed, and it pisses me off along with any other "For Your Own Good," legislation that happens to catch my attention, like anti-smoking, and (some) drug laws.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (sweetdude @ 17th January 2007 19:09)

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 17th January 2007 20:26)

DP, people without some common sense and brains don't bother for higher education, so it's a safe guess that college/university graduates will be good parents, even if not all of them.

C'mon now you can't seriously think that... So by default, people without common sense or "brains" won't be good parents?

With Brains, I agree with sweetdude

Common Sense on the other hand, I can't say the same

While it's easy to make the assumption that most people who go to college and do well are responsible citizens, that's not so true. A person can have a major and still suck with children.

On the same token, a person does not need a degree/high education/what have you to be a good parent. They just need to be willing to be devoted, and set a good aexample for their kids and do what's right (that really isn't simple enough to call it a "just" but you get the idea). My dad was raised by his mother, who only has an 8th grade education, in the US Virgin Islands. She was able to raise her two sons to do well, and my father is currently and RN, and my uncle, a pilot.

Mind you, it helped that they had a support system of family and friends, most who were in similar financial situations, that were willing and happy to help each other out when times got rough.

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Dead Winter. A nice comic.

Hi all,

I just got done moving yesterday, so I am sorry for being a bit late on this discussion. However, karasuman, you replied to my post, so I would like to reply back. I'll be brief because I know that this is off the current topic (plus I am tired).

Okay, to make a long story short, I KNOW that my idea (having adults take parenting classes with certification) will never take hold because of many glaring problems concerning enforcement and infringement of privacy. Did I not say in my first post that it was a radical idea? It'll never fly, and I know it.

I did not call for "random feel-good therapy classes" for the adults. Rather, if there were to be such classes, they would cover parenting skills, such as strategies on teaching your kid to solve his problems with words instead of violence, giving loving discipline to a misbehaving child, and simple ways to childproof a home for safety. Such a class would also include basics that I wish I knew before, like how to change a diaper, and proper nutrition for growing kids. There is a whole industry dedicated to child-rearing books, so I don't see a class about the same thing would be so bad.

I do NOT advocate abortion, or "ripping their newborns away and putting them up for adoption" when it turns out that an adult had a child without a license. Again, this is a glaring error of the idea that I have considered, and is why I am not serious about proposing it to the government. If you would be so kind as to avoid putting words in my mouth, I would appreciate that.

The bottom line is this: I strongly believe that education is the key to improving the lives of people (and society). If every adult were to take a parenting class (and get a license to show it) before they had children, it would bring about improvements in home life. That would be the ideal. The reality is that enforcing it would be a disaster.

I hope I explained myself better this time. Thanks for reading.



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My FF6 project can be found here, y'all.

To Barry and Sweetdude:
Common sense is CRUCIAL to being a good parent.
Brains help.
What's also crucial are things like fast reactions to new situations, patience etc. etc.
Also, by "brains" I didn't mean rocket science, I meant the ability to think and see consequences of certain things or processes.

I didn't mean the make one a good parent by default, but with them, it's more probable that a persone will be one.

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

SM and Barry, I still think care and responsibility comes above common sense. If a parent cares about their children, they'll try and do their best for him/her. A responsible parent will ensure their child's safety and growth - regardless of their IQ. Neither can be said about the woman.



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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude)

I still think care and responsibility comes above common sense. If a parent cares about their children, they'll try and do their best for him/her. A responsible parent will ensure their child's safety and growth - regardless of their IQ. Neither can be said about the woman.

Agreed. Though some smarts certainly won't hurt.

Quote ( Sinslayer)

My understanding is that religion is believing what has ben said by people, and has not been proved scientifically. Also, it's blindly following leaders without question, which I think is never a good thing.

Your "understanding" is quite limited and very far off base. I can't speak for any religeon but my own, but my protestant upbringing has taught me that I should constantly question my teachers and religeous leaders. If I don't agree with their interpretation of the Bible, I have always been encouraged to delve into it myself and find my own meaning for it. Many things are written in stone in the good book, but there remains many other things that have room for different interpretations, such as drinking for example. Some say never, some say it's allowed in moderation. A good Christian will read the Bible and study it and come to his own conclusions on the subject, not just blindly follow what a preacher says. I suspect other religeons operate much the same way, though I can't say this with 100% certainty. Your "understanding" seems very limited, in my opinion.

Quote (Quad)

Every president, save JFK, has been Protestant. It's the same reason that women weren't given equal rights until the 1920s; doesn't the Bible cast women as sinners? If I'm wrong, tell me, but it's what I've gathered from my various readings (read: Dan Brown). I don't mean to sound ignorant, but if I am, tell me. It would be the reason I got the Protestants and Catholics mixed up, anyhow.

The ignorance of this statement is blinding. You believe Protestants are responsible for segregation against women? You and Sinslayer need to take a religeon awareness class.

Quote (Sinslayer)

Generally, less educated people are not as good parents. Think about it - if you get a decent education, you'll know more about how to look after your kids, in terms of health, proper excercise, etc.

-and in response-

Quote (DarkPaladin)

Booksmarts does not translate to parenting skills.
Education does not translate to intelligence.
Wealth does not translate to intelligence.
Intelligence does not translate to common sense.
Colleges train you in one specialty and give you a broad overview of other, basic subjects, none of which has anything to do with raising kids. Unless you major in child psychology or elementary education or the like, then college will not help you in preparation for kids. All it will do is help you prepare to set up a system where you can financially support kids more easily.

Excellent, and accurate, rebuttal DP.

Quote (SilverMaduin)

I take it you're married, have children and lots of parenting experience. You're talking as if you did.

Most of the folks in here aren't, but I am. That doesn't in any way make my opinion more valid than theirs, mind you. Married for 5+ years, father of a 6y/o son, 3 y/o daughter, and a 1 y/o daughter. I can honestly say that my college degree has taught me exactly JACK about raising a child. I learned childrearing from two things: on the job training (learning as I go, basically) and from the advice and experiences of my parents.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 17th January 2007 13:45)

How many people are seriously agreeing with the scenario that kara and orinocou are suggesting? That level of government intrusion would be far beyond anything allowable in the U.S. Constitution and (hopefully) anyone else's.

Next time, I vote that we read my post and realize that that's exactly what I said. I wasn't suggesting. I was pointing out the glaring flaws.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

Quote (sweetdude @ 18th January 2007 06:00)

SM and Barry, I still think care and responsibility comes above common sense. If a parent cares about their children, they'll try and do their best for him/her. A responsible parent will ensure their child's safety and growth - regardless of their IQ. Neither can be said about the woman.

I agree that resposibility is paramount, but common sense is right next to it. But then, how does one define common sense anyways?

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Dead Winter. A nice comic.