Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

I'm usually not one for these kinds of threads, but I feel FFV has a decent system. And "decent" just doesn't cut it - it's a great source for inspiration for certain projects I may be lining up.

What would you change about FFV? I'm not talking about storyline stuff like "zomg u shuld haev xdeth on ur partey" or something like that. More like, how the job system works, or shortcomings in the battle system, stuff like that. Better yet, if you were present at the making of FFV, how would you have done things?

To get the ball rolling, here's a few ideas of mine...

- A class tree, a-la Tactics, instead of just picking jobs as you get them.

- Restricting jobs to individual characters instead of just dumping the whole batch of jobs onto every character.

- "Buying" abilities with job points.

- Giving job levels more of a purpose than just new abilities (ie, stat growth if you level up certain classes; maybe decreasing opposing stats to further reflect how your character is fitting into their new role and to balance out things.)

- Stuffing every remaining copy of FFVIII into a giant incinerator.

- Making some of the more obscure abilities more accessible (!Mix would've been really useful early on, if dosed properly.)

--------------------

"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

More steps in the ATB Bar. It only moves like 5 times then it is full...they should make it have smaller moves but faster sorta like FFVII so you can accuaratly see who is up next instead of a close draw.

I probably would have looked into including some sort of mini game, like VIII's card game, which I liked to play.

I agree with the suggestion to have certain characters have certain jobs rather than all of them with the same jobs. That could have introduced a more tactical element to certain battles, instead of having four Geomancers in a cave or something along those lines.

Also, I like the buying of abilities idea, I'd go with that.

I'll think of more ideas of what I would have included...

This post has been edited by cloud17 on 28th December 2006 17:53

--------------------

In the end, it boils down to two simple choices. Either you do or you don't.

Wasn't it IX that had the card game, not VIII?

Moderator Edit

Off-topic posting. I already linked to the forum rules twice in your posts, so I won't bother again here. And FFVIII was the game that started the card system. FFIX had them, too, but FFVIII started it. -Caesar

This post has been edited by Caesar on 28th December 2006 18:09

I think the job and ability system is fine enough for me.

Quote

- Restricting jobs to individual characters instead of just dumping the whole batch of jobs onto every character.

The key point to the system is not to make things harder/easier, but to build, and combine a certain job with a unique ability to produce your own kind of fantasy warrior. That's the fun of the game.

For example, a Knight that can use white magic (which is a popular example in both FF5 and FFT), or even a Ninja that can use Black Magic. It would have been nice to have a more limited pick of jobs to certain characters in the game.

Although the downside is people would get tired of doing the same thing over and over again and theyd usually fall really bored with the game if the jobs were very limited to each character..

Using only four or less classes helps makes things much more interesting and you take less the time having to boost each and every class up.

I have always prefered the Knight, White Mage, Black Mage, and Thief combo team pack because of the old school reference in FF1 and then in FF9, and for some good reason it fits FF5's characters (Maybe not Faris as a Thief since her essence is

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

courage. But I guess she has the courage to commit thievery and risk her efforts?)

Quote

Wasn't it IX that had the card game, not VIII?

Both had the card game. FF8's was much better done than FF9's.

Quote

More steps in the ATB Bar. It only moves like 5 times then it is full...they should make it have smaller moves but faster sorta like FFVII so you can accuaratly see who is up next instead of a close draw.

Hmmm? What? You didn't like the speed? I actually had no problem with that. I don't think moving super fast just like FF7's would do any better.

Quote

- "Buying" abilities with job points.

I have to call you on that. I don't want another Final Fantasy Tactics where you can just save your ABP and spend it on Fire 3 instead of getting Fire 2 first just so you can use it in the meanwhile. I think learning abilities as your job levels up is much better, especially if you can't stand a job, either you use what you got or keep on building up. Same could be said for FFT's but most people would just spend their points on certain abilities and forgetting about the others.

Quote

- Giving job levels more of a purpose than just new abilities (ie, stat growth if you level up certain classes; maybe decreasing opposing stats to further reflect how your character is fitting into their new role and to balance out things.)

That might be nice if it did. That's why there's EXP when you need stronger stats. And every character has different stats, but are slightly higher/lower than the other one. If it was something Esper-ish in the job system such like "HP+30% at level up" or "Strength +2 at level up", no thanks, I changed my mind.

This post has been edited by NeoEx-Death on 28th December 2006 19:31

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 28th December 2006 14:01)

Quote

- Restricting jobs to individual characters instead of just dumping the whole batch of jobs onto every character.

The key point to the system is not to make things harder/easier, but to build, and combine a certain job with a unique ability to produce your own kind of fantasy warrior. That's the fun of the game.

For example, a Knight that can use white magic (which is a popular example in both FF5 and FFT), or even a Ninja that can use Black Magic.

I agree with you here, about the ability to put together your own combination of skills and classes. This feature was definitely one of the best highlights of FF5's character class system.

Quote (NeoEx-Death)

It would have been nice to have a more limited pick of jobs to certain characters in the game.

Although the downside is people would get tired of doing the same thing over and over again and theyd usually fall really bored with the game if the jobs were very limited to each character..

Using only four or less classes helps makes things much more interesting and you take less the time having to boost each and every class up.

On the other hand, I disagree. Part of the fun is having the freedom to choose what combinations of skills and classes to use for each character, and having a full set of class choices for each character solidifies the feature of using strategy to plan out one's team. The system is reasonably able and reasonably limited as well--you can learn everything if you want, but you can only choose up to two skills (three if you get that special thing which I won't mention without a spoiler but I'm too lazy to use a spoiler tag). I think it's very well balanced.

Quote (NeoEx-Death)

Quote

More steps in the ATB Bar. It only moves like 5 times then it is full...they should make it have smaller moves but faster sorta like FFVII so you can accuaratly see who is up next instead of a close draw.

Hmmm? What? You didn't like the speed? I actually had no problem with that. I don't think moving super fast just like FF7's would do any better.

I don't think FF5's was super blocky, nor do I think FF7's was super fast. I don't have much to say about Ff7's, but I think FF5's is fine.

--------------------

Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote

"Buying" abilities with job points.

No, Getting the desired abilities after earning going through the whole process is rather rewarding, and as you go about mastering classes, you strategize about which monsters are optimum for gaining the most ABP in the least amount of time.

Quote

Stuffing every remaining copy of FFVIII into a giant incinerator.

Yes, Please.

Quote

- Making some of the more obscure abilities more accessible (!Mix would've been really useful early on, if dosed properly.)

Mix is so powerful it should be a hidden job, like Mime
But available in World 1 and 3. That'd make things more interesting Most modern day RPGs don't have enough side quest, puzzles or minigames early on. and it'd be nice to have the "Chemist sidequest" early on. it'd make things interesting. also changing it's name to "Alchemist" would give better insight to how powerful the class really is.

Quote

- Restricting jobs to individual characters instead of just dumping the whole batch of jobs onto every character.

I like this idea, but it would take careful consideration as to how it should be accomplished.
an idea would be to give each character a certain amount of available slots as they gain each job class, then they choose the classes, which can only be given to two characters. However "Secret" classes would have to be handled differently.

Edit

You could also have the classes be given a crystal shard "items", and you get two of every kind, so you'll have two knight crystals in your inventory after visiting the wind shrine, and after they are used on a character it fills one of their class slots

Quote

- A class tree, a-la Tactics, instead of just picking jobs as you get them.

A class tree would take away from crystals begetting jobs, so I'm going to shoot down that idea.


An idea of my own is that even the innate abilities could be replaced, but only by an ability learned from that job class. (i.e. replace !Aim with !Sshot)

This post has been edited by Cloud_Strife510 on 29th December 2006 00:13

--------------------

"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

For the Jobs, I would have to say the person who got their element choice of crystal you would get that job Example:Butz element is wind, so he would get all of the wind job classes and so on. Now of course IF that would happen, you/squenix/whoever would have to "mix up" the job classes so Butz dont get all the good mage classes.

--------------------

Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

Hmm... I really don't think V needs to have the Job/System updated or changed. Maybe a few more jobs earlier on in the game to reduce the simplicity of choosing a job. Cause I've been playing recently an looking at the jobs I have at the moment I'm finding it pretty hard to choose, so if there were more jobs earlier on in the game (perhaps new jobs) then maybe the start of the game would be more challenging. Or it'd be annoying. Problem is Square would have to go about it carefully.

Apart from that the job system is A-okay.

Quote

- Restricting jobs to individual characters instead of just dumping the whole batch of jobs onto every character.

I completely disagree with character specific classes... then it'd be too much like IV (which I didn't like at all). And it'd get rid of alot of the fun and challenge (as stated above) that the game has the way it is.

Here's a comment that I will probably be eaten alive for...

What about a job switching system like X-2? Instant swap mid battle. I agree that limitations should be enacted if this were to actually happen, for example: the initial jobs could be universal (knight, monk, thief, W-mage, B-mage), but as you progress, jobs are handed out (in a nice matching sort of way, not just randomly) (Red, blue, and time mages to one person, Dragoon, ninja, samurai to one, etc) but then allow the transition between these batches of jobs mid battle. Or, better yet, certain jobs can only transition into other jobs (kind of like preformed X-2 sphere grids).

That would be freakin' sweet.

--------------------

If internal struggles were as enjoyable and glamorous as the self conflicted wars within video game characters, we would all be statues, reveling in perpetual self war. -Me

Play me on Rock Band 2, GH-WT, or any other Xbox GH!
Xbox Gamertag-MeanJerry

*eats alive*

I think that'd ruin the challenge, after all - surely you've walked into a battle with regrets to not swapping abilities on someone. And with that in mind ability slots would go to waste: eg. Bartz is a Knight with the ability of "Find Passages" in his second slot, he swaps mid-battle into a Thief, now unless the suspense is ruined and you have to re-equip and re-set abilites then changing the jobs would be very timeconsuming. And you would have to re-equip no matter what.
After all, you don't want optimum with the Bone Mail do you (or even worse, Excalipoor)?

This post has been edited by ataraxy2 on 29th December 2006 06:13

Quote

I think that'd ruin the challenge

Agreed

and what's the fun in switching classes mid-battle, that's just pointless

--------------------

"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

If you switched classes mid battle, then bosses wouldnt be hard at all because most bosses have a weakness to them.

I would have liked a separate slot for passive skills (dual wield, sprint, etc). It would be more like FF Tactics, but I would also let more room for skills in a character. Maybe one slot for a battle skill and a slot for a passive skill.
Other than that, the job system is great.

--------------------

x_X

Point taken on the switching, but I have another change. Especially from the programmer perspective:

Follow through with confirmed actions! If what I'm targeting still exists after the monsters are dead, finish up!

I cast curaga to heal my characters, not to watch it fizzle at the first sight of "coast clear." Yeah, it might waste some MP on some unnecessary spells like haste and such, but that's a risk i'm willing to take. I'm too absent minded (or lazy) to remember to cure outside of the battle, and plus... you don't get the hairpin discount outside of battle (as far as I know).

--------------------

If internal struggles were as enjoyable and glamorous as the self conflicted wars within video game characters, we would all be statues, reveling in perpetual self war. -Me

Play me on Rock Band 2, GH-WT, or any other Xbox GH!
Xbox Gamertag-MeanJerry

Do you mean that if you cast Curaga on your party and then the enemies die it finishes up the turn. That a decent idea, X-2 actually does something similar. Although it'd be a bit sneaky against bosses where you use a Phoenix Down on a character so they don't miss out on the ABP.

But yeah, I wouldn't mind that. You already know my opinions on the system itself.

This post has been edited by ataraxy2 on 30th December 2006 02:05

Quote (eloc_jcg @ 29th December 2006 15:37)

If you switched classes mid battle, then bosses wouldn't be hard at all because most bosses have a weakness to them.

you realize that it sounds like you are deducing that bosses are weak to classes?
I think you were trying to say that most bosses have a weakness, and you could discover that while facing the boss, the first time, and change your jobs midstream and use that to your advantage, therefore making the game easier. Which I agree with that.
Although I am against reducing the difficulty of a game.

the challenge is what makes the game fun, a game without a challenge just becomes boring, look at ffVIII

Quote

I would have liked a separate slot for passive skills (dual wield, sprint, etc). It would be more like FF Tactics, but I would also let more room for skills in a character. Maybe one slot for a battle skill and a slot for a passive skill.
Other than that, the job system is great.

originally i though this would be a good idea to suggest myself, but again it'd reduce the challenge in the game substantially.
and people would experiment less with classes and just stick to an archetypal knight-mage-healer set.
that even worked all the way through FFT, but in FFV if you stick with that set, you have a lot of trouble later(because of the limitation of possible abilities). which forces the player to experiment with other classes. Therefore increasing the enjoyment of the game.

The best games are games that make people think and use their brain

Which eventually lead to my idea of swapping the base ability with an active ability learned by the class.

--------------------

"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Quote (Enrique @ 29th December 2006 22:02)

Other than that, the job system is great.

Yea...for their first attempt at a job system it was good.

Wow was that their first attempt? Jeez, X-2 doesn't even compare against V, and knowing V was the first attempt at the Job System makes it even more amazing considering the amount of the abilities avaliable to learn.

Good? Good?! Meh, to each is own (the Job System is my favourite system, following with Junction, shame Junction was wasted on VIII).

This post has been edited by ataraxy2 on 31st December 2006 03:16

I would make ExDeath easier when you fight him at his castle.

Quote

Giving job levels more of a purpose than just new abilities (ie, stat growth if you level up certain classes; maybe decreasing opposing stats to further reflect how your character is fitting into their new role and to balance out things.)

When I first started the game, I thought that the classes would have different stat growths and I was disappointed when I discovered that they didn't. I think it would be a great idea if they did.

--------------------

Why, hello guys! Haven't been around here in a loooong time!
http://dragcave.net/user/LadyTwi
http://www.backloggery.com/ladytwi

They do have different stat growths. If you stay as Freelancer then each character has different stat perameters and each class has different stat perameters to, such as, Warrior has high strength.

Quote (ataraxy2 @ 29th December 2006 20:04)

Although it'd be a bit sneaky against bosses where you use a Phoenix Down on a character so they don't miss out on the ABP.

More importantly than the ABP, blue magic.
It's not underhanded to bring back ur Blue Mage last minute so they can actually learn lv 5 doom. So underhanded as it might seem, it's helpful to the idea of doing things as they should be done. And come on, if you're taking on something like a Behemoth that's gonna meteor you when it dies, why not have that curaga ready to go at half MP cost rather than doing it right after the battle at full price. Anticipation people... ANTICIPATION!

And for what it's worth (and the massive amount of crap i'm gonna take for saying this), I loved FF X-2. Not for the girly-bouncy-skippyness, or the strange plot, but for the job system. The ultimate job system would be a beautiful combination of V and X-2. If it were possible to merge them, I would not only buy that game the day it came out, but I would probably buy like 10 extra copies and just start handing them out to random people to spread the goodness. Job systems are the best idea for any RPG ever made.

Edit

Post 30! Woot and double Woot!

This post has been edited by leilong on 1st January 2007 21:33

--------------------

If internal struggles were as enjoyable and glamorous as the self conflicted wars within video game characters, we would all be statues, reveling in perpetual self war. -Me

Play me on Rock Band 2, GH-WT, or any other Xbox GH!
Xbox Gamertag-MeanJerry

Quote

V was the first attempt at the Job System makes it even more amazing considering the amount of the abilities avaliable to learn.

No. Final Fantasy 1 was the first to introduce the job system. It wasn't interchangeable but each job had different stats and growths.

Then it came FF3, where it was much better than FF1's because not only do you get an interchangable job system, each job has their own abilities, and thieves could steal.

So it makes FF5 their third attempt, which is the pinnacle of the FF job systems since the ability was introduced. Then FFTactics, FF-X2 and so on.

I played a little of FFI (the music is amazing, battle graphics possibly better than V) and you can't really call that the job system. I don't even know if it had abilities, but you couldn't swap which is what made V cool but still a challenge.

Quote

More importantly than the ABP, blue magic.
It's not underhanded to bring back ur Blue Mage last minute so they can actually learn lv 5 doom. So underhanded as it might seem, it's helpful to the idea of doing things as they should be done. And come on, if you're taking on something like a Behemoth that's gonna meteor you when it dies, why not have that curaga ready to go at half MP cost rather than doing it right after the battle at full price.

You're forgetting that you still learn Blue Magic as long as it was cast on someone with Learning, if after being struck with Blue Magic that character dies it doesn't matter. You still learn Blue Magic - I used this to learn Aeroga against the Elemental Crystals, have my Blue Mage protecting everyone else with White Wind, Reflect etc. etc. While his doom came upon him in the form of Aeroga. Quite handy really.

Half MP cost doesn't help much - but now that I'm actually in the bonus dungeon I'm wishing it was also OUT of battle.

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 2nd January 2007 00:31)

Quote

V was the first attempt at the Job System makes it even more amazing considering the amount of the abilities avaliable to learn.

No. Final Fantasy 1 was the first to introduce the job system. It wasn't interchangeable but each job had different stats and growths.

Then it came FF3, where it was much better than FF1's because not only do you get an interchangable job system, each job has their own abilities, and thieves could steal.

So it makes FF5 their third attempt, which is the pinnacle of the FF job systems since the ability was introduced. Then FFTactics, FF-X2 and so on.

Correction. FFV was the first one to come out with an interchageable job system. FFIII came out after V.

Quote (eloc_jcg @ 2nd January 2007 00:21)

Correction. FFV was the first one to come out with an interchageable job system. FFIII came out after V.

I like your correction. It's even technically valid if you simply ignore that Japan exists!

--------------------

"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

Quote (Rangers51 @ 2nd January 2007 07:15)

Quote (eloc_jcg @ 2nd January 2007 00:21)

Correction. FFV was the first one to come out with an interchageable job system. FFIII came out after V.

I like your correction. It's even technically valid if you simply ignore that Japan exists!

Eheh.. uh, what he means eloc, is the interchangeable job system was in the ORIGINAL FFIII for the NES, not FFIII on the SNES, which was actually FFVI... or on the DS, which was just a remake...

The job system WAS the best aspect of V though, there wasn't a class I can think of that wasn't great, and the state-boost to the freelance class was a great idea. IMO they haven't managed to do it so well since... it's certainly nothing I'd change...

I think... as with all early FFs (I to VI)... the only thing I'd change (in a remake) is the "artwork" enemy sprites. I'd like to see the in-battle FF sprites (enemies and allies really) more like the sprites in say... Bahamut Lagoon. Where they have actually stances and movement. But that's just me.

--------------------

The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

I probably wouldn't change a thing...maybe a small couple of tweaks, but i think it's almost perfectly balanced. I've pondered on this a while back, and all the classes have a use, granted some are better then others, but no class dominates the field.

Some battles drive me crazy because I can never remember how to beat them. Mellusion in latter part of the game with her crazy immunities and wall changing is annoying.

But...maybe a stat growth would be nice...so your guy that's been a Monk for twenty levels would make the ho-hum thief into a good fighter, but then powerleveling would be too prevalent.

Differences between characters would be kinda nice as well, although each character does have slight differences in stats, but it's barely noticeable. But the gladiator(?) class from the GBA remake is unique for every character I think, so...there you go.

This post has been edited by Kylerocks on 3rd January 2007 19:14

--------------------

Really Random Quote of the Day: "Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war." - Richard M. Nixon

So if you're done reading this, you know I have nothing to say and you've wasted your time. Thank you come again.

Make Mirage Town more easier to spot such as have the little dot on the world map or just have a small town there but no dot on the World Map.