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The ceaseless reports of deaths and fighting that has continued for the last... as far as I can remember has recently made me believe that the war is unwinnable. Then I hear that the democratic guys are now looking for "stability over democracy." Oh no...

So the whole thing has been a bit of a waste of time then. The only good thing was that Iraq was a little more democratic. And that works for us so it should work for them. If our leaders now want to throw away the one thing we installed with some dignity before they then pull out; we'll have effectivly surrendered to the fundamentalists we were trying to defeat in the first place. So will they surrender Iraq to the Syrians and Iranians? Or will we continue to fight a losing battle, as they say.



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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

It's time to call in the heavy artillery.

That's right.

Somebody call...

RAMBO

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This one time I punched a bear in the forehead TO DEATH! I still have the scars on my chest. I am the manliest man that ever did man.

League: Z3roHawk
Steam: Zero_Hawk
Wii U: Zero_Hawk
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I think that there are far too many things to factor in as far as winning or losing is concerned. It's really not that black and white, nor was it ever. It's, needless to say, an unpopular war and rightfully so. Any unjust war should be (if any sort of violence can be considered "popular" outside of american football).

What would you consider victory?

I've thought about it myself and have been, to this point, unable to push out any sort of definitive answer. I suppose that the US has done all that it can do. We just do not have enough fingers to plug all of the damned holes that we bored or widened in the first place.

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"You broke my f***ing sitar, mother f***er."
-Anton A. Newcombe

"Yet another 'use your sword to magically deliver death from above' character comes in somewhere between the Living Cabbage and Milkmaid character options." -red_beard_neo

Are we going to lose?
No.

It's pretty safe to say we already lost.


I agree with ZH though. That is the solution to our problem.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

It's hard to say. I just hope it ends.

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"You know that feeling you get when you're on a merry go 'round, and you want to jump off to make the spinning stop, but you know it'll suck when you land? I feel like that all the time"- Keno

"I stab my girl until I fall down"
-Yukari
Do you like Horny Bunnies?

The war in Iraq was more or less doomed to failure from the start, from my point of view. We (as in the western world) attempted to go into a country, remove its leader, and convert it to our way of thinking.

I'll see if I can come up with a suitable example of my point of view (Note: This is merely a statement of my opinion).
--
Think of all the countries in the world as small children - usually selfish, demanding, and prone to crying over spilled milk as well as larger things. These kids are also naturally inclined to resist change, unless they're the ones who decided to make the change.

Enter the US, taking on the roll of the kid who bosses the others around. The US decides that everyone should join them in playing Democracy ball, and starts by throwing the ball as hard as possible at Afganistan, who is clocked firmly in the jaw and wimpers, but agrees to play to avoid being hit again. The US then turns to Iraq and, fueled by the memory of past conflicts, throws the ball again. Even though there are parts of Iraq that want to play Democracy ball, because Iraq wasn't given a choice in playing, it throws a temper tantrum and starts fighting with the US over the issue.
--
I believe that, given enough time without US involvement, Iraq probably would have experienced a civil war that resulted in the installation of democracy and the downfall of Saddam.

Quote (GooseKnight @ 24th November 2006 03:15)

What would you consider victory?

Good question. For me, a victory would be to recall all our forces while leaving Iraq as a democracy. But this is now far from achievable. It's the chicken and the egg all over again it seems. We can't leave without a return to a Saddam-style regime, and we can't stay because there's seems to be no end to the fighting.

But I don't understand what you mean. Where are the grey areas? I think it is a case of winning or losing. The Iraqis are the ones winning if their country is stable and prosperous, and all of us losing if we are forced to abandon it under increased hostility. Do you mean that the new regime would be less brutal than Saddam's? If that were the case then I suppose we'll have done some good. Not likely though.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Bush's standing firm over this war. dunno what he thinks is possible to accomplish but as i see it the war's a dead loss for all parties. however, of course he can hardly leave now, at least he has saddam as his consolation prize.

America is in a tight position between the war in Iraq and the nuclear threat from North Korea. I don't think America would lose. Sure alot of soldiers and even captains\generals\sergeants\etc. died this October.

I can only pray that justice will prevail.

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 2nd December 2006 00:51)

I can only pray that justice will prevail.

Define justice.

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 1st December 2006 18:55)

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 2nd December 2006 00:51)

I can only pray that justice will prevail.

Define justice.

Look it up.

Quote (Zero_Hawk @ 23rd November 2006 15:01)

It's time to call in the heavy artillery.

That's right.

Somebody call...

RAMBO

He's too busy trying to bring back his boxing career.

As for the war, well...thinking that this a situation where win/lose applies is the kinda naivety that made me the cynical *sshat I am today. Or maybe your just reeeeeeally young...like, elementary school. (Not you ZH, but smartdude or whatever his name was)

This post has been edited by Narratorway on 2nd December 2006 00:25

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

Quote (Narratorway @ 2nd December 2006 00:25)

As for the war, well...thinking that this a situation where win/lose applies is the kinda naivety that made me the cynical *sshat I am today. Or maybe your just reeeeeeally young...like, elementary school. (Not you ZH, but smartdude or whatever his name was)

Ok

And thanks for reading more than the title it helps when answering in a topic.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 2nd December 2006 01:12)

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 1st December 2006 18:55)

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 2nd December 2006 00:51)

I can only pray that justice will prevail.

Define justice.

Look it up.

Let me rephrase that:
What do YOU understand under the word "justice"?

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 2nd December 2006 01:48)

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 2nd December 2006 01:12)

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 1st December 2006 18:55)

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 2nd December 2006 00:51)

I can only pray that justice will prevail.

Define justice.

Look it up.

Let me rephrase that:
What do YOU understand under the word "justice"?

Justice means the ones that should win are 'just us' ha cha cha cha cha cha cha.



I don't expect we'll lose, but what do I know. The question I find myself asking the most is why? People are always throwing things one place or another, Bush wants oil, Bush is an asshole, they started it, etc. I would legitimately like to know THE reason we're fighting, of course that wouldn't really enable me to do anything, so I guess it's pointless.

I gotta tell you though, fear of the draft being reinstated is NOT COOL, ugh.

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This one time I punched a bear in the forehead TO DEATH! I still have the scars on my chest. I am the manliest man that ever did man.

League: Z3roHawk
Steam: Zero_Hawk
Wii U: Zero_Hawk
FF14 - Goblin - Zero Hawk <Fiend>

Quote (Zero_Hawk @ 2nd December 2006 12:21)

I gotta tell you though, fear of the draft being reinstated is NOT COOL, ugh.

Tell me about it. I think though, that most people in power would pull out of this war rather than reinstated the draft. I support the war in Iraq, but I think its getting to the point where there's not much more we can do.

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Status:
FF6 -- Finished! Yeah!
FF7 -- Finished (easily, and without KOtR)
FF8 -- End of Disc 3
Secret of Evermore--Leveling up for Salabog

"Go sit over there. Put your seatbelt on."--Squall

And then we're gonna have troops stationed there for years and years because the war will never officially end. Hence Korea. Also, I think we got in over our head, because with our troops stationed in the place on earth with the most anti-America sentiment, unless we get a lot of help from other countries (Israel maybe? I'm not sure if they already are) eventually we're going to be wiped out.

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Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
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FFVII
FFIX
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Quote (Zero_Hawk @ 2nd December 2006 13:21)

I gotta tell you though, fear of the draft being reinstated is NOT COOL, ugh.

==; Shut up.
We HAVE the draft here. As in, if you're not studying, or are not the only supporter for your family/someone otherwise unable to fend for themselves, you go to the army. (Then again, the number of tricks people employ to evade military service is astounding)

I think the armed forces overstayed their welcome.
Saddam captured.
More-or-less democracy established.
Police etc. trained.
Why stay longer? A child will not learn to walk if always carried by a parent.

--------------------

"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

All that blood for nothing...


I wish we had never gotten involved but it's too late for that now, huh?

Quote (SilverMaduin @ 2nd December 2006 14:42)

Quote (Zero_Hawk @ 2nd December 2006 13:21)

I gotta tell you though, fear of the draft being reinstated is NOT COOL, ugh.

==; Shut up.
We HAVE the draft here. As in, if you're not studying, or are not the only supporter for your family/someone otherwise unable to fend for themselves, you go to the army. (Then again, the number of tricks people employ to evade military service is astounding)

I think the armed forces overstayed their welcome.
Saddam captured.
More-or-less democracy established.
Police etc. trained.
Why stay longer? A child will not learn to walk if always carried by a parent.

Yeah, i'm aware of things like that, SMad. In Greece every man has to serve a manditory two years in the military. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

We could just bomb everyone, I mean they hate us anyway don't they? But nooooo, that would be wrong. Setting Rambo loose would be just as effective though.

This post has been edited by Zero_Hawk on 2nd December 2006 22:42

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This one time I punched a bear in the forehead TO DEATH! I still have the scars on my chest. I am the manliest man that ever did man.

League: Z3roHawk
Steam: Zero_Hawk
Wii U: Zero_Hawk
FF14 - Goblin - Zero Hawk <Fiend>

We're not going to lose because that would imply that there's something to win.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

Political freedom is something to win. And now it's nigh on lost.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 2nd December 2006 19:11)

Political freedom is something to win. And now it's nigh on lost.

So what do we do with political freedom when the people we're "giving" it to decide that they like being fascists who laugh at human rights because their version of Islamic law tells them to?

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

Quote

Sweetdude: For me, a victory would be to recall all our forces while leaving Iraq as a democracy.

Well, to make a point here, it's sorta too late to call off our troops. It's like getting into a barfight. You go and punch someone, and even if they start smashing your face in, you can't just go and say "Oops, sorry, I'm losing, so I'm just gonna stop fighting now", we went in, and now we have to fight, whether or not the citizens of any country like it. I think we have already won, and we will continue to fight until everything that we want is ours...

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We, who cannot see into tomorrow, have no way of knowing... But... But... If you don't find dreams yourself... if you don't capture your ambitions... happiness won't just come to you.

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and we will continue to fight until everything that we want is ours...

If what we want is a world war. This isn't Risk, man...

Which is exactly why this war is ridiculous...

There is NOTHING to win in the first place. Just bragging rights about the collective penis size of our militaries vs. other militaries.

Karasuman makes an accurate point. If the Koran tells Islam, in so *few* words, to live as fascists than there is nothing that waving the white penis of christendom and tea-bagging them with the testicles of capitalism is going to do to stop them.

Saddam is just going to be replaced by another dictator. I would just rather it not be a U.S. puppet dictator...


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"You broke my f***ing sitar, mother f***er."
-Anton A. Newcombe

"Yet another 'use your sword to magically deliver death from above' character comes in somewhere between the Living Cabbage and Milkmaid character options." -red_beard_neo

There is very little to compare fascism with Islam. "Islamofascism" is a ghost story spawned by Bush and his cronies to give credit to his war and to try and equate him to a great war leader like Churchill. He's STILL somehow digging a deeper hole.

I don't think the Iraqis are purely against democracy; this is another part of the war that isn't black and white. I think they're more pissed-off about having foreign soldiers occupying their country. Supposing a post-WWII communist Russian army occupied America to dictate their politics on the country. Surely you would be enraged if they were forcing people to stay in their homes and killing thousands of your people who have taken up arms against them. Then again, there'll be the religious leaders who will see democracy as the crippling tool of the West or something.

The Iraqi Islamic law was dictated to them by their self-titled leaders. Now said leaders' army is fighting to win back their control. The people are caught in the middle, having had no control over their law. Now they are stigmitised by the West and the good people of CoN, purely because of their religion.

I don't think it was within our right to go to war to "give" Iraq anything. But since we're there, instead of moaning about what's been done, we should be trying to make some good out of it. And we should certainly make sure nothing like this ever happens again. No doubt it will.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 3rd December 2006 05:16

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

I do think that a democratic Middle East is in the best interests of the United States.

I do not think that we have gone about this war the right way.

I do not think we are in any danger of a military draft.

I do think that it is a very good thing that Saddam is no longer in power.

I do think that we have to stay in Iraq until Iraq's infrastructure can stand on it's own.

One thing to consider, for those of you with the "we must leave now" strategy. Our public opinion with the rest of the world is very low right now. However, to what depths would it sink (and with what consequences?) if we were to pull out right now and just leave? To leave now would mean that we invaded a stable (yet corrupt) country, totally annihilated it's structure, and then left it that way. When you look at the situation in that light, it's plainly clear that we are now forced to stay until the job is done, unfortunate as that is.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 4th December 2006 13:26

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote (Hamedo @ 4th December 2006 13:25)

Our public opinion with the rest of the world is very low right now. However, to what depths would it sink (and with what consequences?) if we were to pull out right now and just leave? To leave now would mean that we invaded a stable (yet corrupt) country, totally annihilated it's structure, and then left it that way. When you look at the situation in that light, it's plainly clear that we are now forced to stay until the job is done, unfortunate as that is.

got to agree with everything said there. but what if attacks continue and iraq remanes 'unstable', what do we do then?

personally i don't think we should have gone in when we did (if we had to) without the support from other countries.

Let's face it, if the popular opinion of the public counted for anything, the United States would've never went into Iraq when they did, the way they did. That being said, Popular opinion sure as hell isn't going to be what stops the fighting and brings your troops back.

Most of us Canadians are still upset that we're the ones cleaning up what's left of the United States' "last mess" in Afghanistan. We don't exactly have the miltary presence you guys have (I mean, Moose make lousy tanks.) and the worry with some people here is that, if you were to pull out of Iraq now, we'd have to get in there too and help finish whatever was started.

I think in the case of Iraq, you guys dived into the pool a bit too early and bit off more than you could chew for the moment. I won't say there wasn't some good that came out of it. Like Hamedo said, it can't be a bad thing that someone like Saddam is out of power. Still, you went into the country and you took down their means of governing themselves. When it was for Democracy and "justice" it was a great idea, right? Boo Terrorism! Yay America! Anyone remember that? Well, whatever the *real* reasons for going into Iraq, it's done now. You can't just leave the job half done, not when this much time, money and trouble has gone into it. If you're going to take something apart, especially to "make it better", make damn sure you put it back together before you pack your tools and leave.

I don't think it's ever been a question of winning or losing. This war always seemed to be a statement to me, just like the raping of Afghanistan. "In case you forgot, we're still the United F***in' States, don't F*** with us."

This post has been edited by Dragon_Fire on 5th December 2006 02:31

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Edit

Sorry for the double post, I was having some internet trouble and didn't notice this one until just now. Could a mod delete it?

This post has been edited by MetroidMorphBall on 5th December 2006 08:26