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It may be just me, but I seem to be noticing a trend with the Final Fantasy Series. Its going downhill.

I bought a playstation 2 just to play Final Fantasy 12 (yeah yeah, say what you want. My playstation had broken and I hadn't bothered to buy another until this point.) and was disappointed with the game.

My personal theory on the trend is this: The games are focusing more and more on graphics and less and less on character and plot developement.

I just don't get drawn into the game as much as I used to.

This drew me back to my favorites of the series (2, 3, 7 in the US).

So...I guess my question is this. Does anyone else feel this way?

And why can't the games be made more like Final Fantasy 3/6? Everytime I play this game it interests me like its the first time I have played it, even with all the inherent bugs and...original...bits of humor held within.

I haven't yet played FFXII, but, I heard good things about it.

And I wouldn't agree with you completely, the series fluctuates.
In my opinion, the retro games make the new ones look like crap, and will remain that way - just as ALL retro games make the new ones look like eye-candy with no ability to hold its own.

I hear what your saying, though, but the bottom line is, no one will ever be able to duplicate the amazing plot lines of FF4 or FF6 because there's no market for them currently, just us true fans that would buy them, which makes up 10% of the market.

It's all about utilizing the graphics now, I'm sorry to say. Gameplay can bite it as long as it looks good seems to be the motto.

So I guess we're stuck replaying the oldies

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"A little tight, but the price was right" - Locke
"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
"I'm a General, not some love starved twit" - Celes
"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

First of all, wrong forum.

And second of all, I totally disagree. Final Fantasy XII is just about the freshest game in the series since VII. I've only just recently started it, but I'm enjoying it quite a bit. The generalizations you seem to be making about the series show some obvious elitism... you haven't even gone very far into XII, have you?

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

gotta go with lasz. ive only sampled 12 and i am very impressed. with the exception of X-2 (wasnt too bad IMO), i think each game in the series was awesome and i also think that many fans feel similar. 5 and 6 are masterpieces and 7 transcends every game of its time. 8 and 9 had high expectations due to 7's success, but the games were tight nonetheless.

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"The answer is, of course, that it would be best to be both loved and feared. But since the two rarely come together, anyone compelled to choose will find greater security in being feared than in being loved."
- Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince

I don't understand how any series goes 'downhill' just because a particular installment isn't to your liking. This especially doesn't make sense considering that Final Fantasy is probably one of the most experimental RPG series created.

And FFXII is teh awesomes. It's kinda slow, but it's a very refreshing game.

Edit: It should also be noted that this is the kind of game which cannot be accurately judged in the first two hours of gameplay.

This post has been edited by Zeromus_X on 27th November 2006 03:21

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

I don't think that the new games are less focused on character/plot development, but I think they do the development differently. A large portion of the character development in the SNES era Final Fantasy games took place in your head. The game supplied the information, but they didn't have the presentation there at all. Characters flat-out said what they were thinking; whiny music cued the two-minute summary of whoever's tragic past... I'm not saying that FF6 was bad in this area, but simply that the limitations of the genre made you think it was better than it was. The more recent FFs have tried harder to feel like movies, which are, quite frankly, better at storytelling, stylistically. On the downside, this kind of storytelling takes longer and has to be more realistic about what kinds of information to include. The end result is something that plays more like a movie but simply can't have as much content. I don't think that it's really better or worse...just different. Video games used to play like the outline for a novel; now they play like an extended movie.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

To spurn off future comments about me just starting the game, Ive finished it.

Just trying to see what others are thinking.

By the way, I never said (and if I did, I didnt mean to) that the games were BAD, just sub-par IMO. Of course, the point has been brought up that I could just be expecting too much. And this may very well be true.

Karasuman makes a rather eloquent point. The developmental style of the SNES generation was drastically different and expectations for video games themselves were different. While the depth of gameplay in the earlier FFs was incredible, nay un-precedented, the story-line was largely left to the gamer.

FFXII, while not my favorite (see my post in the FFXII thread) is an incredibly engrossing game and most certainly not sub-par for the series (see FFVIII and X-2 for some sub-par FF action ). Just throw your preconceived notions of what an FF game should be and have fun!

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"You broke my f***ing sitar, mother f***er."
-Anton A. Newcombe

"Yet another 'use your sword to magically deliver death from above' character comes in somewhere between the Living Cabbage and Milkmaid character options." -red_beard_neo

Gameplay should be left to the gamer, hence the RPG Everything after FF6 was a matter of pressing a button a bunch of times, and waiting for movies to finish

Personally i think the downhill came in FF7, because characters werent so unique anymore, because of the materia thing. All of a sudden everyone is a caller. Even tho FF6 had espers, the characters had unique enough abilities to make them still usuable.

That and FF used to be fantasy with a bit of technology, now it seems, technology with a bit of fantasy.


Off subject, topic was locked:

I've thrown the atma weapon, i've even equiped it on my head, guess there's some bugged carts, where the location restriction wasnt set for atma in the code.



This post has been edited by killstheweak on 27th November 2006 05:36

I understand, how one can hate 12. I, for one, still have trouble adjusting myself to the battle system.
But from my point of view, it's very Star Wars (which is funny) and very Final Fantasy 2 (which ALSO was very Star Wars). I like the plot, the characters I've so far encountered.
Technically, 12 is a single-player version of 11. Works for me.
Downhill? Nah. 8 sucked, but in terms of gameplay and characters, the desing, music and the CORE of the plot were pretty cool (too bad they patched up the core with lame ideas). FF9 was so damn retro, that you hardly CAN get more. I utterly loved it.
FF7 had a great atmosphere and potential for character customization. I liked that very much.
Downhill? Nah. The market's changing.


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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

"We have more, can deliver tuesday." - Del S

Good old CoN

Final Fantasy's stories and characters are becoming something I don't enjoy as much as I used to, but that doesn't mean I think it's entirely going "downhill." I think it's just changing into something that a certain demographic will like, and other demographics won't.

I've kinda felt that the change started to happen around FF10, when Sakaguchi stepped away from Square, and had minimal involvement in the games; so sure it makes me a "Goochie fangirl," but when I see his new games (Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey), THOSE by far grabbed my attention more than the new Final Fantasy games have (ie. FFVII's spin-offs, FFXII, and the like). So I'll go as far as to say that it's Sakaguchi's spirit that I enjoyed in Final Fantasy. Granted, he's just one part of the entire game/franchise/series, but he's a darn BIG part of Final Fantasy to me. *shrugs*

I enjoyed FFXII, but certainly not as much as I enjoyed any other FF (proper) game. Right now, it's probably one of my least favorites, actually. Not quite sure why it ranks so low, but it just isn't a game that I really wanted to play more than once. I almost felt like, "Well, if it didn't have the name 'Final Fantasy,' I really wouldn't have bought it in the first place, and there's nothing in it that would have made me buy it otherwise." ^^ So yeah, maybe I got it for all the wrong reasons, but I seriously thought I'd like it more.

I didn't really "care" about any of the characters. There have been characters in every single past FF game that I have absolutely adored and found charming and endearing. FFXII didn't have anyone like that for me. In the end, they all kinda just faded into the background and I just found myself "interested" in the battle system... (though I guess that's what some gamers want)... and not the characters or story. I guess I'm someone who wanted a little more out of the characters.

So... FFXII wasn't really the game for me. ^^

Anyone who has read my anti-12 agenda will know that I partially agree except that I pick the moment the series starts a serious slump is just after FF7, and despite an effort to pick back up from 9, takes a little dive from X, a larger dive with XI, an incredible dive with X-2 and a huge slump with the CoFF7. Bascially, the newer games HAVE, imo, traded gameplay for fan service.

I think 12 will be on a par with 2: Rather poor characters, rather dull experimental system, rather cheap plot which is, in this case, very recycled.

I'm one of the few who feel a more technological edge is required, though.

Oddly though, the worst game is the one I regarded as best for a sequel. FF8 could use one, FF7 and FFX on the other hand, did not need one and they are now worse for it. However, it would need a very precise kind of sequel, one willing to tear apart everything that went before if it had to.

Character design has also steadily grown more stupid, mainly on clothing and the fact every male looks like a girl.

Quote

"Mister Nomura, rival games have gone to Hyperclothes! Shall we go for light clothes?"

"Light clothes are too dull. Let's go straight to... LUDICRIOUS CLOTHES!"

*FFXII's main male lead winds up in a skirt and blouse with extra belts and chains*

"I DEMANDED HE WEAR PINK THONG PANTIES, THOSE ARE RED BRIEFS!"

"Sorry Lord Nomura! Please don't crush my testicles!"

This post has been edited by Del S on 27th November 2006 11:47

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

i see what you mean too. it is getting worser than before. but we'll wait and see what the other Final Fantasy in the future is gonna be like.

I don't find that FF is going downhill in the least. I hated FFV, and while I liked FFIV well enough, I didn't find it that exciting. I can't force myself to get through FF1, the battles are too excruciatingly slow. I do love FF6, however.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Final Fantasy has always been more experimental than other RPG series. So I don't really get alarmed when they try something new, like new battle systems (FFXII), new graphics (FFVII, FFX), new whatever. It's just FF's style.

Graphics-wise, I find better graphics a nice addition. I'm not a graphics-whore, but I do believe that graphics should get progressively better as the years go by. Now, I'm not advocating that graphics should be the thing to concentrate on. There's game mechanics, storylines, audio, etc to worry about as well. Just, graphics should be getting better as time goes on. So in this aspect, we all know that FF isn't going downhill at all.

Character-wise, I have to grudgingly agree with that statement. Even after spending 60+hours with the FFXII cast, the only character I care for at all is Balthier. But like karasuman said, character development is done differently nowadays. Think about it for a moment. Now that we can portray characters more realistically, we can convey information through facial expressions, body language, etc. We don't need to blatantly state all the details like in the SNES era, instead we just have to pick up on them like we would in a movie. Even though I don't like the new way, in the end I think that it all comes down to the player's preference.

As for storyline-wise, that's entirely your own opinion. I do agree with Del, though.

And my opinion of FFXII? One of the top 5 ever created.

This post has been edited by eternalsphere on 28th November 2006 00:13

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Music is a mysterious thing... Sometimes, it makes people remember things that they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember them or not...

- Shitan, Xenogears

I've come to believe that XII will be the last Final Fantasy I'll play... I dunno, I mean, XIII just has nothing going for me. People have gone as far as calling it Advent Children with random encounters. And that doesn't sound appealing to me at all. I don't like VII as much as the other FF's(I still love the game, though), and it seems that XIII is going to be very much like VII: the Cloud-esque girl, very futuristic atmosphere, etc. I'm not 100% sure that I won't play XIII, but the other main reason is because I don't plan on spending $600 on the PS3 for it. As for XII, I believe that it's very much like IX. If you look at the world of IX and the world of X, which are very, very unlike each other, that's what XII and XIII seem like to me, at least.

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"You underestimate the strength of a Jedi's mind, Brejik. A mistake you won't live to regret, " -Bastila Shan(Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic)

A good friend of mine summed it up really nicely. Game developers are running out of imagination. It's completely true. Though he doesn't play RPGs (blasphemy!), he was referring to games such as F.E.A.R and Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter (PC). All the same, it applies to final fantasy as well. They are making their games nicer to look at to keep up with technology but are following the herd rather than leading the way in innovation. FFVII pushed the boundaries for graphics by using lush pre-rendered backgrounds; very original. The plot of FFVI was comprehensive and expansive and probably outclassed any other in its day (I wasn't around ) Now we are seeing nothing new from the series. The plot of FFX is horrendous, a plunge from FFIX and FFVIII. Tidus was unplayable... FFXI buys into the MMO market and isn't very different from the others. FFXII has sold out the old "battle" system to follow in the footsteps of other titles with a similar way of fighting. The reason? The company is either refusing to allow the development team to try anything too radical or they simply don't HAVE anything radical.

Another long series - which has had a similar history to FF - is Metal Gear. There were all the classics, I'll confess I've never played any of them, but they looked as good a game could be at that time. Then they produced the brilliant MGS1, a ground-breaking stealth game. MGS2 was poor but at least they tried a different approach to Snake in order to develop his character. A gamble which didn't pay off. Then MGS3 brought back the genius of the series. MGS: Portable Ops is again pushing the boundaries of technology with the co-operative aspect of the PSP and has convinced me to buy one of those little black screens. The exclusive release of MGS4 is enough to make me want to buy a PS3 - price tag and all. MGS4 is again exploring new angles of technology, using the high memory to create giant arenas with innovative use of scenery. The point of this isn't to simply big-up MGS, but show where FF has recently been lacking. Rather than simply making better graphics and a tried and tested gameplay, they should try an entire new angle. Even if it doesn't cause any joy (MGS2 style) at least they are putting some innovation back into the series. You can't create fantasy without imagination. Sure, the FF series is still enjoyable, if only for a short while. I will play any and all of the new releases. I was born into gaming by FFVII and I will die by the series





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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

CEO: It's been 2 years. We need to release our next major game. What game can it be?
Executive: Well, our last game gave us $4 million profit. We can try it again and probably get another million in profit.
CEO: Good, hop to it.

Two years later

CEO: We need to release a major game. What game can it be?
Executive: Well, our last game gave us almost $5 million profit. Surveys found that product recognition contributed a significant amount to sales.
CEO: So we need a recognizeable game to launch. We also need to expand.
Executive: The last game worked, and the game before that did just as well, and the game before that also did alright. We can use all three this time to expand our market potential, not to mention they've all worked for us before.
CEO: Good, get to it.

Two years later

CEO: This will be your first major project with us. It might feel like there's big shoes to fill, but don't worry, we knew you were a shoe-in when we brought you in. It's time for us to launch another major title. What do we have to work with?
Executive: I feel honored to follow in the long line of success this position has held. I think in returning the honor to this position would be best. We have over 8 years of experience in this industry, so it would be best to put those 8 years to good use. Once consolidated into a single project, there will also be name recognition.
CEO: Sounds good, hop to it.

Two years later

CEO: Now I know things are spread bit thin. For the past 6 years, we have been juggling multiple products, but it has paid off. Can we consolidate our gains and successful products into a true flagship of our company?
Executive: This shouldn't be hard. Everything we've done has always worked for us. If it's worked before, it will work again. If we really use everything this time, it'll be our record achievement.
CEO: Excellent. Get to it.

I love how people start bashing FFXIII before there's even more than 10 mins of footage, it was the same with XII... FFXII has been a huge success, many people are lovin' it (most of whome were so paniced about the "action system" idea and saying they'd never get it), trouble is... certain groups of people are ready and willing to claim the next FF is "nothing compared to VI" or whatever their respectful favourate is before there's even a screenshot, and they'll stick by that no matter what... and that's fine, something can be not-as-good but still very good you know. But to expect the games to somehow rival something that in your mind is already undefeatable is silly.

And that's my in-put on the by-monthly "Is FF going downhill" thread. =P

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

I haven't played past FFIX, and there are some FFs that I have skipped (FFVIII), but I don't think the series is going downhill. FFIX is my favourite out of the series. I'd say that the times are changing; if you continue to make games in the same style, game after game, it would get boring. They are trying new things to keep people interested, if you like the retro games, play the retro games because you probably won't see games in that style again.

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Why, hello guys! Haven't been around here in a loooong time!
http://dragcave.net/user/LadyTwi
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I think Karasuman has an excellent point. Sadly for myself, though, I related more strongly emotionally to the old way of storytelling; the cinematic style just doesn't have the punch for me that the earlier dramas did. I think perhaps it's easier for me to imagine more realistic reactions that satisfy me than it is for me to imagine more character development that satisfies me.

I haven't felt particularly moved by an FF since 7. Oh well.

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- Sagiri -
"It is difficult to find happiness within oneself, and impossible to find it anywhere else."
:)

i dont think the ff series is going "downhill" at all, like others have said its just changing, trying new things, i admit the characters in ff12 i havent been thrilled with,(i usually have a fave character, but in this one i dont) but i still love playing it, it has an interesting new battle system which i at first hated but it grew on me rather quickly and the story is not boring by all means. i like playing this game as all the others before it. each game has a personality to them that i can't quite describe and this one, though in a completely different league as the others, has a unique personality that i still enjoy. and this one it seems i can play 100+ hours trying to discover every little thing there is without getting bored, with the marks and other little tid bits to keep me entertained, so no, this series definitely isn't going downhill.

One thing I wish they would bring into their games as standard is a seriously hard boss to fight early in the game. There's nothing quite like a real, but optional, challenge to hold attention and compliment good strategy and leveling up.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

I havn't played it so i couldn't tell you. I have been playing FF games for years and so far the only game that made me sad was FFX, and that was just dissapointing in the long run. Game series will always have games that don't attract every crowed we can't change that and i don't think we should make a big fuss about it. Still this is just my opinion.

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"You know that feeling you get when you're on a merry go 'round, and you want to jump off to make the spinning stop, but you know it'll suck when you land? I feel like that all the time"- Keno

"I stab my girl until I fall down"
-Yukari
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