Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

As my game design progresses, I find myself once again seeking the advice and learned opinions of avid gameplayers here on the CoN. As mentioned in my previous topic, my game is variant on the tactics genre.

My game will utilize character classes similar to Final Fantasy IV. Players won't get to choose what class a character is in the game, instead they will be offered a multitude of characters in various classes and have to build their party from a subset of the multitude. As the game progresses, new classes will be offered to the player for recruitment. A rough flow chart is described here:

Simple -> Hybrid -> Specific -> Master
-------> Unique ----->

Simple: These character classes have only a couple skills to set them apart from one another. The initial spell caster might only know 3 or 4 of the initial elemental spells.

Hybrid: As the characters learn more skills, new character classes will arise allowing hybrids to form. A Red Mage would fit nicely here.

Specific: These characters become more adept at their skills. At the highest point, the specific classes are the BEST at what they do, such as stealing rare items, but the knowledge is very depth oriented, not broad.

Master: The master classes combine several specific classes. A small drop in ability is compensated by being able to do many things very well.

Unique: Introduced throughout the game, the unique character classes offer skillsets that other classes do not acquire. Usually, this is because their skill set is complicated or the character concept does not mix with the other classes.

In a traditional job-centered Final Fantasy, you can see the sort of progression that evolves throughout the game - you have characters just starting out in the simple classes, then exploring multiple jobs in the hybrid classes. Further down the line, they might master a class and learn all there is to know about it in specific classes, and after mastering multiple classes, they've become one of the several master classes. FFT had several unique classes as well, if I recall, which only a single character in your party could learn.

The emphasis on recruitment of characters, rather than on specific character development, is an intentional design choice on my part. I want the player to feel like they are heading up an army of skilled warriors, rather than a small band of dilettantes - although plenty of the classes I've been describing might fit the dilettante classification quite well.

The discussion I have is: what sort of classes should be implemented? What sort of variations on traditional classes might there be? Take the Oracle class in Final Fantasy Tactics. Rather than simply having one class, we can combine a couple of the abilities with the Thief and Ninja classes and have a dedicated assassin able to poison their foes. What unique ideas do you have for classes that you wouldn't mind me stealing and implementing in my game?

Thanks for your time and input folks!

--------------------

Oh sure, I don't have to get kicked in the junk to activate it, but I like it anyway. -- Thief commenting on the difference between Throw and Blue Magic.

I rather like your breakdown and concept, though I wonder about the recruitment end. You have these various classes which some are clearly better than others, so what would be the point of acquiring, say, a simple class when you know that a master class will be far more valuable in the end? Is it simply a matter of cost of recruitment or is there some other benefit?

I'm not trying to say I'm ignorant, I'm more or less trouble-shooting.

--------------------

Games on the Go
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy: Four Warriors of Light
Baldur's Gate

Too much to play, so little time!

Greg

Quote (Perigryn @ 21st August 2006 20:25)

I rather like your breakdown and concept, though I wonder about the recruitment end. You have these various classes which some are clearly better than others, so what would be the point of acquiring, say, a simple class when you know that a master class will be far more valuable in the end? Is it simply a matter of cost of recruitment or is there some other benefit?

I'm not trying to say I'm ignorant, I'm more or less trouble-shooting.

A fair and valid question. The availabilty of classes is limited temporily - as you advance through the plot, you'll have more character classes at your disposal. At the beginning of the game, you'll only be able to recruit from a few of the simple classes. In general, then, a master class would be more beneficial than a simple class when they're available.

That's not to say that a character with a simple class could not be useless to recruit towards the end of the game. Classes are meant to be general classifications for the characters. Individual characters will have different stats, maybe some different abilities, and can potentially use different weapons.

The master and special classes are areas where this balancing system will really come into play (and it means I'll have to spend a lot of time tweaking this!). The special classes are limited in their abilities, but have higher stats, while master classes have much broader abilities, and above-average-but-lower stats.

Also, recruitment is not limited to a single method. There will be a variety of methods of recruiting characters - mercenaries for hire, volunteers who wish to fight for your cause, and those whom you have captured in combat. Master classes are going to be more expense to recruit, and harder to defeat in battle.

--------------------

Oh sure, I don't have to get kicked in the junk to activate it, but I like it anyway. -- Thief commenting on the difference between Throw and Blue Magic.

That is a very good concept of what you did here. You should go on with what you want to do! You would probably be an excellent video game creator!!
Whatever you do, I'm behind you!

--------------------

Profanity is for those who lack the intelligence and imagination to otherwise express themselves.

Revelation 19-22
----------------------------------------
Favorite FF -------------- FFVI
Favorite FF character - Unsure (Setzer or Vivi)
Favorite FF songs ----- FFVI
Favorite Esper: Ragnarok
Favorite Magic: Ultima

Quote (WildHalcyon @ 22nd August 2006 05:16)

Also, recruitment is not limited to a single method. There will be a variety of methods of recruiting characters - mercenaries for hire, volunteers who wish to fight for your cause, and those whom you have captured in combat. Master classes are going to be more expense to recruit, and harder to defeat in battle.

That sounds a lot like Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen.

But that all sounds good. Gives a better picture of what you wish to accomplish and yeah, I like it. I think it'll work if you give each class the attention it deserves, as well as attention to the stats. I imagine a lot of trouble-shooting and beta testing'll come into play, though.

--------------------

Games on the Go
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy: Four Warriors of Light
Baldur's Gate

Too much to play, so little time!

Greg

Quote (Perigryn @ 22nd August 2006 16:01)

Quote (WildHalcyon @ 22nd August 2006 05:16)

Also, recruitment is not limited to a single method. There will be a variety of methods of recruiting characters - mercenaries for hire, volunteers who wish to fight for your cause, and those whom you have captured in combat. Master classes are going to be more expense to recruit, and harder to defeat in battle.

That sounds a lot like Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen.

But that all sounds good. Gives a better picture of what you wish to accomplish and yeah, I like it. I think it'll work if you give each class the attention it deserves, as well as attention to the stats. I imagine a lot of trouble-shooting and beta testing'll come into play, though.

Indeed, but Im a LONG ways away from beta testing anything...

--------------------

Oh sure, I don't have to get kicked in the junk to activate it, but I like it anyway. -- Thief commenting on the difference between Throw and Blue Magic.

A Short Essay on Character Variegation

Introduction

I wanted to discuss character variation in my game quickly, since the character system is the most novel, and difficult, part of the game design in the planning stages. I'm taking a page from the Roguelike genre and incorporating plenty of randomness to the design, which I feel adds a bit of unexpectedness to the game. Although the game will feature plenty of monsters, the most common sort of enemy characters will encounter will be... other characters. The player will find them both in random encounters and as plot battles, but in both situations there will be surprises, unexpected pieces added to keep the battles fresh and difficult every time.

Classes V. Characters

Classes are used to help define the rough outline of a character. They give the baseline stats for each character, tell you what primary abilities the character can use, and what sort of equipment the character wields (not to mention what their sprite looks like). On the other hand, characters are UNIQUE, or as close to unique as possible. Each character differentiates in four basic dimensions:

Statistics: Although all warriors will have high strength and HP, not all warriors are created equal, and neither are all mages in terms of their magic power. Each class has a baseline statistical value for each stat, but characters are given a normal distribution deviation from this value, and that deviation is also a feature of a class.

Abilities: Like Final Fantasy IV, each class has its own set of abilities, and sometimes those overlap with other classes. Unlike FFIV, characters in a class are not guaranteed to learn all the abilities of a class, nor are they necessarily limited to abilities found within their class. A fighter might randomly know a healing spell, and a black mage might be able to steal like a thief. Again, character class defines the baseline, while characters move away from it.

Equipment: Each class has a set of equipment that they can use, some classes can equip swords, while others wield daggers, etc. Sometimes a class can use multiple sets of equipment. As you're probably figuring out, characters are not necessarily limited to the weapons of a class - although all members of a class are GUARANTEED to be able to use the equipment that is natural to the class.

Sprites: Characters are meant to be unique, and thus if every member of a class had the same sprite, it would defeat the purpose. Actually, all characters in a class DO share the same sprite, but the palette colors differ from character to character. This helps provide some visual cues about what class a character might be, but still gives them a unique identity (no, Jacques is the RED fighter!)

Conclusion

Thanks for taking the time to read my little essay. I hope you all eventually find my game interesting. My first step is to create a sort of demo proof-of-concept world, and then see how people like it, before I delve in and create a complete game.

--------------------

Oh sure, I don't have to get kicked in the junk to activate it, but I like it anyway. -- Thief commenting on the difference between Throw and Blue Magic.

I like the system, but I'm a little more partial towards a system where your characters would progress. Recruiting sounds like it'd have one glaring flaw: your lower-end characters from the beginning of the game will eventually end up ditched in favor of masters and other specialists, meaning whatever bonds that might've formed in your party will end up broken in favor of new, powerful characters that have zilch to do with the rest of the party and are just along for the ride because they kick more ass than anyone else.

I might've missed something, admittedly I scanned a little bit through the posts following the first.

If you want to avoid the "ragtag band of newbies" feel, you could have your older characters obtain promotions that set them apart from others, maybe based on the time they've been with the party or for exceptional things they've done in battle (everyone's dead, they only had a handfull of HP left, and managed to win the battle through sheer luck, or something like that.) This could be like some class-increase that could open up more abilities or orient them towards a certain character developement path, and would give the inexperienced characters from the beginning a chance to put off peaking before their time a little longer and to make them more valuable than a higher-class but completely new character who has never fought with the party and knows nothing of the party's organisation and strategy.

Or you could have characters working their way towards Master and such on their own - hiring a Master further in the game would be a good way to get a head start if a few units are lagging behind (which they should, to keep the hiring system from being completely useless past the first hour or two of gaming) or to replace units whose developement went wrong. But a character who's been there and fought with everyone since the start shouldn't end up having less value than one who'd get hired in a seedy pub one evening on a whim and who doesn't give a wet snap about Julius' sister being killed right in front of him in the middle of a fight, or Robert sacrificing himself to save the half of the party who got caught in the enemy camp just a few days ago.

--------------------

"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote

I like the system, but I'm a little more partial towards a system where your characters would progress. Recruiting sounds like it'd have one glaring flaw: your lower-end characters from the beginning of the game will eventually end up ditched in favor of masters and other specialists, meaning whatever bonds that might've formed in your party will end up broken in favor of new, powerful characters that have zilch to do with the rest of the party and are just along for the ride because they kick more ass than anyone else.

I've debated this issue for a while, but I'm not entirely sure how, or whether, I'll fix it or not. On the one hand, the game is supposed to somewhat represent things that actually happen, and when forming a revolutionary party of fighters, the veterans definitely pull a lot of weight. On the other hand, the recruitment system is designed to promote dynamic parties, and being a game, some amount of decision making from the player should be required.

Characters have levels, allowing them to progress through the game and become more powerful, but the class progression isn't terribly linear - should your early-game fighter become a Holy Knight or a Dark Knight? Or perhaps they'd like to go the exotic route of the samurai, or explore the mystical world of elemental magery and become a Mage Knight? And what of the simple Bard... should there even be a bard class... which clearly will not get as many classes to advance to as a Fighter might.

Quote

I might've missed something, admittedly I scanned a little bit through the posts following the first. tongue.gif

Nope, you didn't miss a darn thing. It is a flaw, and one I'll have to come to terms with one way or another.

Quote

If you want to avoid the "ragtag band of newbies" feel, you could have your older characters obtain promotions that set them apart from others, maybe based on the time they've been with the party or for exceptional things they've done in battle (everyone's dead, they only had a handfull of HP left, and managed to win the battle through sheer luck, or something like that.) This could be like some class-increase that could open up more abilities or orient them towards a certain character developement path, and would give the inexperienced characters from the beginning a chance to put off peaking before their time a little longer and to make them more valuable than a higher-class but completely new character who has never fought with the party and knows nothing of the party's organisation and strategy.

Its an issue, but with this type of game, the natural order of things is to have less adept members of the party get replaced as the player finds better, more complementary individuals. I'm actually planning on instituting permadeath, so early game characters ARE less likely to survive through to the end of the game. It also makes enemies that can cast a "death" spell a much more sinister force to contend with.

As far as class abilities opening up, this is definitely something that WILL happen. Classes unlock new abilities as they gain levels. A level 1 fighter and a level 10 fighter are not different in just stats. On the other hand, two level 10 fighters are not guaranteed to have the same abilities either.

Quote

Or you could have characters working their way towards Master and such on their own - hiring a Master further in the game would be a good way to get a head start if a few units are lagging behind (which they should, to keep the hiring system from being completely useless past the first hour or two of gaming) or to replace units whose developement went wrong.

Again, with characters dying left and right, it will be important to continuously hunt for new characters. There will be "Life" spells to be used in battle, but they have more significant consequences (such as permanently reducing stats).

Towards the end of the game, the player will probably be predominantly using the master, specialty and unique classes. It will happen, and the game is going to be designed around that fact.

Quote

But a character who's been there and fought with everyone since the start shouldn't end up having less value than one who'd get hired in a seedy pub one evening on a whim and who doesn't give a wet snap about Julius' sister being killed right in front of him in the middle of a fight, or Robert sacrificing himself to save the half of the party who got caught in the enemy camp just a few days ago. smile.gif

I agree, to a point. The goal of my game isn't to portray the dealings of a small band of ragtag do-gooders ala Final Fantasy, but to provide a more realistic revolutionary experience - its messy, unfair, and bloody. Yes, Robert's sacrifice a few days ago was tragic, but here's a new fighter who really believes in the cause and is ready to put his life on the line too.

Update:

Edit

I've been thinking about it, and I think I'm going to leave the game the way it is. With the leveling system, I'll probably give some stat bonuses to higher-level characters of the earlier classes - thus encouraging a continuous trade-off throughout the game between abilities and statistics. This will hopefully provide some better balance throughout the game, as well as encourage players to use the classes they love the most without sacrificing too much power.

This post has been edited by WildHalcyon on 29th August 2006 18:32

--------------------

Oh sure, I don't have to get kicked in the junk to activate it, but I like it anyway. -- Thief commenting on the difference between Throw and Blue Magic.