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http://faqs.ign.com/articles/706/706775p1.html

I wrote that. My first essay ever like that and I'm looking for feedback from people. I might also stick around. This place is sweet-looking.

Oh, is that the same one? Well, I still don't agree with some parts, but I think it's a very well-done thesis nonetheless. Good job.

And Welcome to CoN!

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OSonic Rave
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Moved to Your Creations. Also, you "might" stick around? Not the best way to solicit opinions.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

Why aren't you shopping AmaCoN?

I don't have a lot of freetime on the computer and all. I post on a wide variety of boards and so-on. I'm sure I'll post quite often here because, for one, I like the layout very much. It is good on my eyes and they quite frankly...suck. So I'm sure this will go over well...I hope.

Well personally, this is one of the most enjoyed forums that I frequent. This board is moderated very well by several individuals, so spam and trash posts are kept to a minimum. Intelligent discussion is possible here.... dare I say it even occurs frequently? Stick around, you'll enjoy this place I'll bet.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Wow, this is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.

Now I actually want to play FFVII.............wow. Just wow.

Even my essay on theories of the origin of Ridley doesn't even come close at all to the level of detail that you've provided here.

I want to play FFVII because I actually might be able to understand the plot of the game after this.

Do you mind if I save a copy of this document, and also mirror it on my webspace (crediting you with its creation, of course)?

Edit: And I think this also proves some important points about the plot:

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

The real, ultimate villain is Jenova. The causative/catalytic villain (the one who gave Jenova a toy called "Sephiroth") is Hojo.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 7th July 2006 23:09

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Inquiry 1:

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I'm confused regarding your comments during first mention of the God plan. You say it's flawed to believe the entire idea was concocted by the Jenova avatar, but you give no evidence as to why, in fact the statement after that reinforces the idea that it would be the avatars plan and not Sephiroth himself. That or I'm reading it wrong and you're saying the opposite. Which is it?

Inquiry 2:

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

How can the avatar not recognize Cloud or be confused about his actions when it knows enough about his past to show it to him?

Inquiry 3:

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

I think it's rather clear what's being said by Hojo in the crater. You say "The real Sephiroth has no way of engendering the clones to all flock to him, nor any use for it." He has Jenova's original head and reuniting his mother into a whole being seems pretty consistant with his previous behavior. Besides, Hojo's comments about jenova's journey from shinra indicates he knows about the avatar and he wouldn't suddenly switch to calling it Sephiroth. He clearly can differeniate the two and does regardless of sanity or ethical shortcomings. Also since Sephiroth is originally human (he started as a twinkle in Hojo's eye after all), stands to reason there'd still be a connection to the lifestream, however fucked up as a result of Jenova's influence. This would, theoretically, allow Jenova a 'backdoor' entrance to the lifestream.

That pretty much covers all my issues. Otherwise, seems pretty spot on to me.

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Amswer 1:

Well, remember playing through Final FantasY VII and you hear of Sephiroth’s plan to achieve godhood. The Planet has taken 2 millenia to try and heal itself from how Jenova arrived. Another larger, more destructive object in Meteor would completely wipe out all life and the Planet itself. Sure for hat one instant all the energy would rush into Sephiroth for him to take upon himself but eventually when the healing Spirit Energy did not reach the wound because Seph was stealing it all, the Planet would perish totally. Sephiroth would absorb the energy and be the core of the Planet but the Planet would then die because it could not remedy Meteor’s destructive impact.

Make sense?


Answer 2:

Possible spoilers: highlight to view
That one scene where “Sephiroth” did not recognize Cloud in the Cargo Ship is most probably the fact the Sephiroth persona Jenova adopted had not yet delved into Cloud’s fractured mind and found his own incorrect beliefs about his past. You see, Jenova knows only the things about Cloud since he was injected with her cells and for all she knows, he is nothing but something Hojo built. However, on the Cargo Ship, she did not know him because she had not as of yet read his mind as she can do with anyone according to testimony in the game.

Help? ^^


Answer 3

“I think it's rather clear what's being said by Hojo in the crater. “You say ‘The real Sephiroth has no way of engendering the clones to all flock to him, nor any use for it.’ He has Jenova's original head and reuniting his mother into a whole being seems pretty consistant with his previous behavior.”

Well, that is just it. He seems to have abandoned his thought of her as mother. Remember I clearly pointed out a few instances when he calls her simply Jenova. I’m sure if his alterior intentions were to make her whole again he would have said so. He would have said “I will become a god along with my re-formed mother!” Ya know?


Answer 3b
“Also since Sephiroth is originally human (he started as a twinkle in Hojo's eye after all), stands to reason there'd still be a connection to the lifestream, however fucked up as a result of Jenova's influence. This would, theoretically, allow Jenova a 'backdoor' entrance to the lifestream.”

Well, yes, he can access the Lifestream as will happen when he dies. I didn’t say he couldn’t. I said he could not literally diffuse his will into it because that would mean he was spreading out his conscious choice and existence into the Planet itself. That’s what diffusing his will would literally mean. Look up both words if you doubt it. I say Hojo simply meant Sephiroth didn’t want to vanish into the Lifestream and thus stayed alive because otherwise he would become part of its collective whole.

Responce 1:

Nope. You explained the God plan. I already know what that is. The confusion is in who is referring to it. You said so yourself repeatedly that we never hear the real Sephiroth speak in the game except in the flashback, so it stands to reason that the entire plan is Jenova's. But from what I've gathered, you're saying it's the real Sephiroth, which would fly in the face of your entire thesis, so I ask again: Whose plan is it?

Responce 2:

Fair enough I can accept that, but then the question would be when did she? And once that's answered, why then and not sooner/later? You want this thing to work, it's pretty important this little plot hole get filled.

Responce 3a:

Again, you stated that we never hear from the real Sephiroth in the game, except in flashback, when he refers to her as mother. All other times are the avatar. Again, all according to what you've said.

Side note: The game has hardly been straight foward with it's plot, so I don't think it's very prudent to suddenly assume the real Sephiroth would explain himself in one sweeping sentence.

Responce 3b:

Reinforcing the theory that the plan is Jenova's is that killing a planet and taking it's energy is pretty much what Jenova does. Merging with Sephiroth, which your theory states she does, could very allow her access and control of the lifestream without having to diffuse any wills.

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Nope. You explained the God plan. I already know what that is. The confusion is in who is referring to it. You said so yourself repeatedly that we never hear the real Sephiroth speak in the game except in the flashback, so it stands to reason that the entire plan is Jenova's. But from what I've gathered, you're saying it's the real Sephiroth, which would fly in the face of your entire thesis, so I ask again: Whose plan is it?

Ah. Alright, then. What I meant was that it is Jenova’s plan in essence. The additions such as talking about his godhood aspirations was Jenova’s Sephiroth. You see, Jenova can mimic people to the last detail. Physically, vocally and in mind. She took on a Sephiroth persona. That is, her interpretation of Sephiroth’s mind. The Sephiroth we saw lacked noticable components the original Sephiroth mentioned such as Mother and the like. He obviously still retains these ideas because he calls her as such in AC. What I mean is that while it is Jenova’s plan at the root, she has taken on Sephiroth’s mindset along with his appearance and from that false mind she constructed sprung the idea of “becoming a god.” That better?

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Fair enough I can accept that, but then the question would be when did she? And once that's answered, why then and not sooner/later? You want this thing to work, it's pretty important this little plot hole get filled.

Well, the first time Jenova/Sephiroth gives us any clue to knowing who Cloud is (her distorted idea of who he is, anyways) was at City of the Ancients. There after killing Aeris Jenova/Sephiroth looks fairly perplexed at Cloud’s reaction. He is crying and to her, this makes no sense. He is just an emotionless puppet that was made by Hojo and expressing sadness is something she can not comprehend. If this was Sephiroth, he would not inquire to Cloud about having feelings and seem offput by the fact Cloud is upset.

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Again, you stated that we never hear from the real Sephiroth in the game, except in flashback, when he refers to her as mother. All other times are the avatar. Again, all according to what you've said.

Side note: The game has hardly been straight foward with it's plot, so I don't think it's very prudent to suddenly assume the real Sephiroth would explain himself in one sweeping sentence.

I suppose you’re right about the second part but as I said in the first bit, it was only truly the real Sephiroth in the flashbacks and a false Sephiroth Jenova made every other time. The real Sephiroth is seen again in AC.

1. You refute anything contradictory to your theory as mistranslations and the ramblings of fools
2. You completely disregard the fact that Sephiroth is the son of Jenova; since he is the only one who received prenatal infusion, he is probably the reincarnation of Jenova, and therefore has all the power of Jenova, so all your "Sephiroth doesn't have that kind of power" is bull.
3. You have never experienced trauma and have no idea what effect it has on a person's mind or how quickly someone could go insane from reading that they are the product of an experiment designed to create a god.
4. You will either disregard what I say or come up with a "perfectly reasonable answer to everything I pointed out as flawed, so I won't even come back to this thread to argue with you, this is just my two cents on your absurd thesis for anyone else who thinks your nuts

Moderator Edit

And I think you're a jerk. Arguments have no weight when you toss an insult out first. -R51

there I took out the insult, happy now?

This post has been edited by Wedge Highwind on 12th July 2006 15:21

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you are an idiot
1. You refute anything contradictory to your theory as mistranslations and the ramblings of fools

Righto. I’m glad you insult me first then accuse me of being the jerk here. Sorry, buddy but verbal assaulting a person for imaginary verbal assault does nothing but turn public opinion against you.

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2. You completely disregard the fact that Sephiroth is the son of Jenova; since he is the only one who received prenatal infusion, he is probably the reincarnation of Jenova, and therefore has all the power of Jenova, so all your "Sephiroth doesn't have that kind of power" is bull.

Is that right? Well, we did see he has immense physical and magical power but never had any indication he had her power. At all. He is human with enhancements. Nothing more.

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3. You have never experienced trauma and have no idea what effect it has on a person's mind or how quickly someone could go insane from reading that they are the product of an experiment designed to create a god.

...what god? They were trying to create people with the Cetra’s power in the modern age. Not manifested human-born deities. And I’d like to see how many people find it logical to say Sephiroth lost all his sanity after reading some books. And yes, I have suffered trauma. Head trauma, emotional trauma trauma and I don’t feel too kindly to you for completely assuming otherwise.

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4. You will either disregard what I say or come up with a "perfectly reasonable answer to everything I pointed out as flawed, so I won't even come back to this thread to argue with you, this is just my two cents on your absurd thesis for anyone else who thinks your nuts

Well, no one responded yet in your favor. I don’t think you have too much of a following. Even if they agree with you, I don’t think they want to be associated with such a vicious, unprovoked and nonsensical excuse for a counter-argument.

I like this theory.It works alongside my interpretation of Sephiroth, in that it was Jenova almost all along, and that Jenova, not he, is the true power.

Highwind, if you post once just to argue then say in the same post you're arguing, you defeat the purpose. A debate is supposed to be a debate, and over soemthing so trivial as the plot of a videogame, why get so heated?

Nonetheless, that's not too important. The actual theory itself , I've got no questions other than ones that have been answered so far. I've always felt slight anger towards all the sephiroth fanboys who don't realise he's just the servant of a more powerful being and think Jenova was his pawn.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Not that I'm some 'fanboy' or whatever, but I still believe what the Ultimania guide stated about Sephiroth resisting Jenova's control. I don't think either one 'conrolled' the other I just think Sephiroth resisted it/her's control. But that turned into an argument on another board, so I don't really want to mess around with that anymore.

Regardless of what we believe, this thesis has inspired me to play FFVII again, and pay attention to the story a bit more. It certainly is an interesting read.

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

I enjoyed the read, Nikkolas. Well written and well thought out. Not sure yet if I agree with all of your ideas 100%, but Narratorway is doing a good job of discussing it civilly with you, so I'll just continue to stay back and read on.

On a side note, very mature... the way you dealt with HighWind. I doubt I could have remained as composed as you did, in the face of such blatant asshattery.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

While I thank you for the compliment, I've dealt with far worse. When you have met everyone from "Sephiroth did it! He's the best!!111" to "Sephiroth was clearly the absolute antagonist of that fictional and intriguing account" you really learn to not get so worked up over the former. A man I know who was against my theory once said "enough with your sophisms!" Intellectual or dimwitted, opposition is oppostion and the less mentally stimulating kind tends not to get me that rattled anymore.

This post has been edited by Nikkolas on 11th July 2006 23:12

Never did respond to my PM and people are still interested here, so I'll pop this in here and hope ya see it. I do believe it's a solid theory and I've connected my own pieces into what I think works, but you keep going back and forth on the issues, that it's difficult to know what you're saying.

Quote (Nikkolas @ 8th July 2006 09:29)

“I think it's rather clear what's being said by Hojo in the crater. “You say ‘The real Sephiroth has no way of engendering the clones to all flock to him, nor any use for it.’ He has Jenova's original head and reuniting his mother into a whole being seems pretty consistant with his previous behavior.”

Well, that is just it. He seems to have abandoned his thought of her as mother. Remember I clearly pointed out a few instances when he calls her simply Jenova.

The Sephiroth we saw lacked noticable components the original Sephiroth mentioned such as Mother and the like. He obviously still retains these ideas because he calls her as such in AC.

I suppose you’re right about the second part but as I said in the first bit, it was only truly the real Sephiroth in the flashbacks and a false Sephiroth Jenova made every other time. The real Sephiroth is seen again in AC.

First you say he abandons the mother concept, then you say he doesn't. And the instances you 'clearly' pointed out, all occured when it was the avatar and not Sephiroth, since you also just said that only the flashback contained the real Sephiroth. Clear that up for me and I'll call the issue done and the theory solid.

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Aj/ What I meant was that you cited his completing Jenova again as a reason for him starting a Reunion because he sees Jenova as Mother and so-on. But what I said was that the Sephirothw e see in the current time of the game never states this nor calls her "Mother." That was only said by him in flashbacks. Some people theorize he learned of her true origins and didn't think of her as such in the Lifestream but in AC he continues to call her Mother. Let's put it this way.

Past-Sephiroth (before FFVII)- Called Jenova Mother and wished to take her to the Promised Land.

Curent-Sephiroth (FFVII time)- Wishes to become a god. Calls Jenova only "Jenova."

Future-Sephiroth (FFVII:AC) Calls her Mother and wants to go to a new land.

You see that following my idea that it was Jenova conducting the events in the game coincided with the changes in how he perceives and what he wants. I hope I explained it well. I really do lack in the full and clear explanation department at times.

Quote (Nikkolas @ 11th July 2006 17:00)

Aj/ What I meant was that you cited his completing Jenova again as a reason for him starting a Reunion because he sees Jenova as Mother and so-on. But what I said was that the Sephirothw e see in the current time of the game never states this nor calls her "Mother."

That would be because, according to your theory, that is not Sephiroth. For clarity's sake, I suggest that any time you are referring to a Sephiroth you believe is fake - just an idea - don't call him Sephiroth.

And I wasn't referring to the avatar since it's obvious I can distinguish between the two. And yes, for such a thorough thesis, you do lack of clarity.

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