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Vincent should be because he knows more about Sephiroth than most people, was in lve with Sephiroths real mother (lucrecia) and hes immortal and he transforms into monsters. Fortunatly Square is making Dirge of Cerberus. so i guess thatll make up for it

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Sata Tsubasa no Tenshi-

Barret - "Cloud the group has been talking and we feel that its time for a new leader."
Cloud - "Judas explain your treachery!!"

Some people say its sad when I can walk them through FFVII in my head. I call it a gift.

[QUOTE=SaffireWeapon,11th February 2006 02:35] Yeah, he and Yuffie are secret characters, just like Odin, Alexander, B.ZERO and KoR are secret summons. But I think that what he is trying to say is that each character is "Self-Tittle" game worthy!

odin wasnt a secret materia you got it after fighting the first sephiroph clone. but i do agree vincent should have been a main character. in a way vincent is sephirophs step dad

This post has been edited by kid sephiroth x on 8th June 2006 08:41

You obtain Odin by opening the safe to unlock Vincent, so yes, it's optional.

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

Um, I really don't see how Vincent is Sephiroth's stepdad, but okay. But still, he was asleep for, let's see, SEPHIROTH'S ENTIRE LIFE. He knows nothing about one candidate for the main villain, at least as far as history goes. Just what brought him into being, and huge chunks are left out of that information, too. The few times he even talks about Sephiroth, he's mainly talking about someone else (Lucretia, Hojo, etc.), and clearly shows that he has very little interest in or knowledge of this evil dude. In fact, if you're playing as Vincent when Cloud has a Sephy-induced flashback of Nibelheim's destruction, Vincent admits that he had no idea it even happened (talk about a sound sleeper). The other real villain, Jenova, has absolutely nothing to do with Vinny unless you say he was injected with Jenova's cells, and he still doesn't have that much to do with her. Again, no offense to my fellow Vincent fans, but there was simply no reason for him. The small part that he plays, at least in the game, could have been taken on by another character, or done away with entirely.

It should also be noted that uber gothness, immortality, and monster-shapeshifting talents, a main character do not make. At least, not on their own.

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"If everything's a dream, don't wake me..."

Vincent Valentine could have stopped the creature of Sephiroth from the beginning. Additionally, he knows how the child's creation came about and what happened during that time. As mentioned before, the game is not about Sephiroth but about the planet's plight. However, we are attracted to Sephiroth as the villain figurehead because he is the "big bad monster" that was result of messing with forces people should not have touched. Vincent also is a huge reminder of Hojo's own bad acts.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Vincent was shot dead by Hojo. Obviously, Vincent must have had a lot of power and influence when it came to exposing Hojo if the scientist was so desperate to use such means as eliminating the obstacle. Additionally, Vincent's transformations and demons show us what kind of man Hojo is. Cloning doesn't sound so bad even in today's society. But putting demons in your enemy's head and making him into the monster-- that's a new level of messed-up.

Looking later at Lucrecia, she is the tragic Madonna figure. The structure of the game series demands it; an orphaned child makes a better character than one with a mother.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Madonna in FFVI, Raine in FFVIII, Jane in FFIX or even the Queen (she lost a child rather than being lost herself), Anima in FFX; if these women had not perished, the heroes and villains would not exist as we know them or at all.

Lucrecia needs Vincent, because there needs to be someone who attempts to save the pure icon from death. That effort makes it more tragic and the villain himself more relatable.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Maduin in VI, Laguna in FFVIII, King/short funny looking dude in IX, arguably Yuna's father in X.

Because of what Sephiroth represents, all characters that have an important part of his history should be necessary to the game. Vincent should be there or else Sephiroth's story isn't nearly as tragic and perhaps we don't like him nearly as much as we need to in order to make FF7 the game it is -- it's all about perspective.

How could he have stopped it? Killed Hojo to begin with, and likely been executed before Cloud and friends were even born? Killed his love, Lucretia, just to stop a superhuman from being born? The whole thing hangs on, "did Vincent have anything to do with Sephiroth or his conception, Jenova, Meteor, or another big part of the plot, and affected something in a major way?" The answer is, no. Lucrecia would have gotten pregnant by Hojo with or without Vincent. Their relationship might have made it all happen a tiny bit later, but that's it. And on saving Lucrecia...Vincent never tries. He lets Hojo and Lucrecia be together, without trying to stop it in any way. He certainly feels guilty afterwards, and confronts Hojo about it, but he never once does anything toward saving Lucrecia. I've already said how little he has to do with the rest of the major parts in the story. Besides, you could say that a ton of very minor characters brought some needed element to the game. And obviously, no one's arguing about those often unnamed people not being considered main characters.

I understand where you're coming from, Slayer. Vincent does bring a few things into the game that would be missed otherways. But while that makes him terribly interesting and all, he just doesn't have a big part to play in the story. Now, had he been Sephiroth's father, or suggested the experiments, or been even just a little less apathetic about the world ending and whatnot, he could have been a major character. In fact, if I could rewrite this story, even changing a few parts of it, I could easily make him an important part of all this. He seems like the perfect person to sacrifice himself for a cause, especially after seeming so cold. That would be beautiful. But, the fact remains that it didn't happen that way.

I do believe that's why they made he and Yuffie secret characters. They're just extras, exposing a tiny bit more about the history of Sephiroth and the world. Being a main character implies that the story simply wouldn't work without you. Going through the game without thought or mention of Vincent or Yuffie wouldn't be an option, which it is. Try taking any of the main characters out of the story, or even some that many don't consider "major", and it really wouldn't work. Sorry for the post being so long and rambling...

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"If everything's a dream, don't wake me..."

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How could he have stopped it?

Vincent indicated that he was going to expose Hojo and his work. Shinra doesn't know how Hojo was going to do it -- otherwise, what value does Vincent's threat have?

"I'll expose you!"
"Shinra already know and have approved it."
"Oh...uhm."

That obviously didn't happen. Shinra didn't know, Vincent was going to tell them in order to stop the experiment and Hojo's weird work, and Hojo shot Vincent to silence him. Vincent had to be a threat in order to be shot; Hojo had a low opinion of the Turk, so why waste time and effort on him unless he was a threat to the project? Once he awakened again with the demons (I think Hojo did not expect Vincent to ever regain consciousness), he had the opportunity to go back and tell Shinra before Hojo went further with the child's experiments. Instead, he gave up. That's what Vincent has to live with for the rest of his life, which may be very long indeed. If he had had the will to go on after Lucrecia "died" (even that's up for debate), he could have saved Sephiroth from life as a glorified lab animal. His inaction causes Sephiroth to live the life he lived and die the way he died.

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In fact, if I could rewrite this story, even changing a few parts of it, I could easily make him an important part of all this. He seems like the perfect person to sacrifice himself for a cause, especially after seeming so cold. That would be beautiful. But, the fact remains that it didn't happen that way.

Vincent surprises Cloud when he comes back at the end of the game. "I always thought you were ... cold." "Cold? Heh heh. I suppose" or something along the lines of that.

Vincent's story is not one about a crusade about a planet. It's what happens when you sit on your duff and let things happen. Much like other character that aren't as central to the plot, his story is an allegory. Still very important to the game, though; it gives it depth beyond "OMG planet's gonna go boom, OH NOES!" Vincent, despite his monsters, is very human and fallible, and his story reflects that. FFVII needs substories like that or else it's just one giant jihad. Much like we need Sephiroth as a figurehead, we need people that aren't perfect or gods in order to fight him.

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Try taking any of the main characters out of the story, or even some that many don't consider "major", and it really wouldn't work.

Tifa was the last character to be added. Originally, she wasn't going to be there. The writers just whipped up a story for her and threw it in and waited to see how it washed. Think about it. Tifa is simply an instrument used for Cloud's self discovery and to be part of the much-overexposed "Love Triangle." I could take out Tifa easily and make Cloud talk to his "old self" more. She's there to humanize and to fill the female quota in FF.

Cid: Token way to get an airship. Follow the man named Cid, you'll get an airship, like most other FFs. What does an old rocket pilot have to do with saving the planet? He's there as another human story about potential and dreams rather than being uber important to the "save the planet" plotline.

Yuffie is only there as a reminder of past misdeeds and to provide a recent history of the planet. The past makes the present more real, so Yuffie makes this game more real in that it establishes this world existed before we walked onto it. That's a bonus compared to other games, so I agree with you and think she should be extra. The difference between her and Vincent is that his tie to Sephiroth is more personal and interesting, not to mention he faced Hojo in the past and lost.

Red is there simply to introduce us to Bugenhagen and once again show what a sick bastard Hojo is.

The list goes on, but Barrett and Aerith's roles are indisputably important to the planet plot. Along with Cloud, they're probably the only characters the planet plot needs to run on. Other than it being a Square convention to meet a ragtag group of rebels and save the world, what the hell do these other people have to do with a dying planet? If the game was more open, I could probably go through the whole game without hearing a word of Cid Highwind or Tifa Lockheart. Everyone else, including Sephiroth, makes it better and more real and really makes FF7 what it is. By using your logic, I could actually eliminate every character except for Cloud, Barrett, and Aerith just to get a story about enviro-terrorists saving the planet and oh yah, one of them dies at the hands of some Shinra dude. By saying Vincent and his story are "not necessary" and don't have the same value as other characters, then you throw every other character that doesn't have a direct tie to the suffering planet plotline to the dustbin as well.

Quote (fatman @ 30th April 2006 18:54)

Quote (You Spoony Bard! @ 30th April 2006 18:42)

I also hear that (Zeromus_X will be happy about this) Cait Sith has a pretty big part in Dirge of Cerberous

Haha, surely Square wouldn't be that cruel. Right?
I mean they have heard how much this character is disliked. Why on earth do they use him so much?

Alot of people like Cait Sith, not the big white thing he is on. Just the little kitty. I think Cait Sith is the shit and people should deal with people liking him.

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The voices tell me to stab you.....I mean give you candy filled with razor blades.......thats right candy.

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Vincent indicated that he was going to expose Hojo and his work. Shinra doesn't know how Hojo was going to do it -- otherwise, what value does Vincent's threat have?

"I'll expose you!"
"Shinra already know and have approved it."
"Oh...uhm."

That obviously didn't happen. Shinra didn't know, Vincent was going to tell them in order to stop the experiment and Hojo's weird work, and Hojo shot Vincent to silence him. Vincent had to be a threat in order to be shot; Hojo had a low opinion of the Turk, so why waste time and effort on him unless he was a threat to the project? Once he awakened again with the demons (I think Hojo did not expect Vincent to ever regain consciousness), he had the opportunity to go back and tell Shinra before Hojo went further with the child's experiments. Instead, he gave up. That's what Vincent has to live with for the rest of his life, which may be very long indeed. If he had had the will to go on after Lucrecia "died" (even that's up for debate), he could have saved Sephiroth from life as a glorified lab animal. His inaction causes Sephiroth to live the life he lived and die the way he died.

this is *preposterous.* there is no way to conclusively declare, as you have done here, the details of the confrontation between hojo and vincent. after all, we're given that the confrontation related to residual effects the exposure to jenova was having on lucrecia. we're also given that *the entire premise of the jenova project* was to create an ancient from the cells of jenova, the excavated "ancient." professor gast was originally the head of the project. how do you figure shinra didn't know?

furthermore, you make the case that hojo wouldn't have shot vincent unless he was a "threat." i offer that hojo would have shot anyone he was mildly irritated with at the time; obviously he is the most morally depraved individual we as the audience are given in the ff7 world. recall that after shooting him, he subjected him to strange experiments that gave him his limit break abilities...clearly any smidgen of conscience would never stand in professor hojo's way (especially since, by now, he was shinra's top scientist on the project).

finally, you're just plain wrong about vincent "waking up" and having the opportunity to "tell shinra" again. when vincent temporarily woke up post-g substance exposure, he was in a berserk, chaos-wrought state of outrage, which had to be silenced by lucecria, who induced the suspended animation he was in until the party wakes him up.

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Vincent surprises Cloud when he comes back at the end of the game. "I always thought you were ... cold." "Cold? Heh heh. I suppose" or something along the lines of that.

Vincent's story is not one about a crusade about a planet. It's what happens when you sit on your duff and let things happen. Much like other character that aren't as central to the plot, his story is an allegory. Still very important to the game, though; it gives it depth beyond "OMG planet's gonna go boom, OH NOES!" Vincent, despite his monsters, is very human and fallible, and his story reflects that. FFVII needs substories like that or else it's just one giant jihad. Much like we need Sephiroth as a figurehead, we need people that aren't perfect or gods in order to fight him.

the producers have granted us that vincent doesn't do anything that he isn't inclined to do; the only reason he even bothers to help the party is because they are his only friends (aww, how cute). he is *not* driven by moral compulsion; nomura has made it clear that he feels he has forfeited any moral ground from which to execute judgment. and, by the way, it's not like he was "sitting on his duff." it was more like he was "driven into a state of suspended animation by lucrecia after freaking out with chaos." see, vincent's "sin" was never letting sephiroth be born. nobody could have known at that time what jenova cells would do to a foetus; even the respected and moralistic professor gast had a great interest in this project to "recreate the ancients." after learning from ifalna that jenova was *not* an ancient, he left the project due to ethical concerns -- but shinra continued it without him. is dr gast culpable for not stopping the project then and there? can we push sephiroth's death on him? vincent's "sin" was allowing lucrecia to turn into a quasi-human because of the effect of jenova cells. his sin was failing to save the one he loved.

no, vincent's story was completely irrelevant to the greater story of ff7, the game. a bunch of after-the-fact touching up was done on his character, though, and now, of course, he's the cornerstone for the post-ff7 events, being the only individual capable of stopping the plan to summon omega weapon. the only reason they did this is to satisfy the BADAZZGOTHMAN fanchildren like, ostensibly, yourself.

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Tifa was the last character to be added. Originally, she wasn't going to be there. The writers just whipped up a story for her and threw it in and waited to see how it washed. Think about it. Tifa is simply an instrument used for Cloud's self discovery and to be part of the much-overexposed "Love Triangle." rolleyes.gif I could take out Tifa easily and make Cloud talk to his "old self" more. She's there to humanize and to fill the female quota in FF.

foolishness. tifa was the sole reason that cloud was able to recover into a "normal" frame of mind (seeing her triggered the mimetic properties of his jenova cells, which read her mind and created a persona based on his own conception of the "ideal" cloud and the truths remembered by tifa). hell, tifa was the only reason cloud wanted to join SOLDIER in the first place. furthermore, tifa was the *only* person in the world who could have saved cloud from himself post mideel. without the presence of his childhood friend, he would never have been able to rectify the mako/jenova psychosis from the life-saving operations and jenova experimentation he underwent post-nibelheim incident. it was impossible for cloud to have discovered his "old self" on his own; the personality he had created after being reduced to vegetation by mako poisioning was a direct result of jenova-copying and it would have been impossible for him to discern accurately which part of his consciousness was real and which was not, especially with sephiroth screwing with his mind all thru the game.

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The list goes on, but Barrett and Aerith's roles are indisputably important to the planet plot. Along with Cloud, they're probably the only characters the planet plot needs to run on. Other than it being a Square convention to meet a ragtag group of rebels and save the world, what the hell do these other people have to do with a dying planet? If the game was more open, I could probably go through the whole game without hearing a word of Cid Highwind or Tifa Lockheart. Everyone else, including Sephiroth, makes it better and more real and really makes FF7 what it is. By using your logic, I could actually eliminate every character except for Cloud, Barrett, and Aerith just to get a story about enviro-terrorists saving the planet and oh yah, one of them dies at the hands of some Shinra dude. By saying Vincent and his story are "not necessary" and don't have the same value as other characters, then you throw every other character that doesn't have a direct tie to the suffering planet plotline to the dustbin as well.

the way the game played out, every single *main* party character ended up being a necessary addition: cid brought the transport, barrett introduced cloud to the anti-shinra cause, aeirth summoned holy, red introduced the clan to bugen (who was essential), cait sith got the black materia, and tifa saved cloud. the reason all these characters were 100% essential to the story of ff7 is because *that is how the story played out;* the writers chose to make all of those characters essential to the unfolding events of the story, and to excellent result (with, perhaps, the exception of the faux-sympathetic cait sith v1 suicide).

get off of vincent; he's not *that* cool. all rhea was saying, and she was totally right -- vincent's backstory, while a nice tidbit of an addition to the ff7 gaming experience, is far and away extraneous, and had vincent not even ever have existed, sephiroth STILL would have been created under shinra's ancient-revival project, headed by profs gast and hojo.

Quote (Silverlance @ 10th February 2006 00:43)

(except for Cait Sith; nobody loves Cait Sith. Ever.)

am i the only one ever to defend cait sith?

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"you did something I saw as your suicide: you refused to an admin WITHOUT GIVING ANY PROPER REASON.
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SilverMaduin 4th September-2006
Heh Heh... Rap music....

The game is much better as Cloud as the main character because Cloud's story reflects so much better with the rest of the party's story and if Vincent was the main character you'd have to start the game a bit late but I do think he shouldn't be a secret character. If you really want to play as Vincent so bad just play Dirge of Cerberous or whatever it's called.

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Bahamut King Of The Dragons...

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this is *preposterous.*  there is no way to conclusively declare, as you have done here, the details of the confrontation between hojo and vincent.  after all, we're given that the confrontation related to residual effects the exposure to jenova was having on lucrecia.  we're also given that *the entire premise of the jenova project* was to create an ancient from the cells of jenova, the excavated "ancient."  professor gast was originally the head of the project.  how do you figure shinra didn't know?

furthermore, you make the case that hojo wouldn't have shot vincent unless he was a "threat."  i offer that hojo would have shot anyone he was mildly irritated with at the time; obviously he is the most morally depraved individual we as the audience are given in the ff7 world.

Shinra is a company that cares about results. It does not care about side effects and the cost. However, Professor Gast has been established as being a good man and caring about what happened to Sephiroth; he seems to have had contact and a mentor-student relationship with the boy even after he left the company. Although he was stationed at the mansion at the start of the experiment, only Hojo, Lucrecia, and Vincent are established as being there the whole time. Offhand, I would say that Gast did not necessarily know how sick Lucrecia had become, nor would he be an advocate of shooting whoever got in the way. Gast did not leave Shinra until a year or so after the birth of the boy, ergo I don't think he knew how Lucrecia "died" until that point. Additionally, I would not put it past Hojo to say that Lucrecia died in childbirth rather than disappearing or dying due to sickness incurred by Jenova. Since Gast was gone, Hojo was more or less free to tell people whatever he wanted, thus Sephiroth thought that his mother was an Ancient woman named Jenova that died shortly after his birth rather than a strain of intergalactic bacteria.

Hojo is depraved, no argument. However, he is not a gun-toting psycho. If he shot anyone that got in his way, then he could have easily shot Scarlet, Palmer, President Shinra, etc. He did shoot Vincent, but I believe Vincent was a good enough Turk to figure out whether or not Hojo was armed at all times, so he was willing to risk going in unarmed. Hojo fatally shooting him was a surprise. Same thing happened to Gast, who likely did not know what exactly happened to Vincent either. Hojo likely covered up Gast's death as well; Sephiroth even says "Why did you die?" He doesn't know that Hojo shot and killed him. Hojo is devious and very good at covering his tracks.

Shinra knew about the experiment. They knew that the mother had died. I don't know what they thought happened to Lucrecia and Vincent. However, they likely did not know that Hojo shot and killed one of their Turks and made Lucrecia fatally ill with Jenova, not mention killed their former star scientist who had retired.

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  recall that after shooting him, he subjected him to strange experiments that gave him his limit break abilities...clearly any smidgen of conscience would never stand in professor hojo's way (especially since, by now, he was shinra's top scientist on the project).

Vincent not only stood in his way scientifically, but he stood in the way when it came to obtaining Lucrecia in the first place; he was in love with her. Even if she did not return that love back, he was still interested in her and wanted to be in her life. When she turned him down romantically, he resigned himself with "As long as she's happy, I don't mind." Hojo knows that Vincent still loves her, even if she is his wife. Hojo probably is three chalupas short of a Taco Bell and does not deal with jealousy or awkward situations well. He hates Vincent for even presenting a threat to the experiment and to Lucrecia's loyalty to him.

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finally, you're just plain wrong about vincent "waking up" and having the opportunity to "tell shinra" again.  when vincent temporarily woke up post-g substance exposure, he was in a berserk, chaos-wrought state of outrage, which had to be silenced by lucecria, who induced the suspended animation he was in until the party wakes him up.

I have not played DoC, and I would appreciate no spoilers until I do. Additionally, they may tinker with the translation when it comes stateside among other things, so the exact details may be vague yet.

However, in BC

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Vincent briefly appears, waking up. This AFTER he is put in the coffin.

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the producers have granted us that vincent doesn't do anything that he isn't inclined to do; the only reason he even bothers to help the party is because they are his only friends (aww, how cute).  he is *not* driven by moral compulsion; nomura has made it clear that he feels he has forfeited any moral ground from which to execute judgment.  and, by the way, it's not like he was "sitting on his duff."  it was more like he was "driven into a state of suspended animation by lucrecia after freaking out with chaos."  see, vincent's "sin" was never letting sephiroth be born.  nobody could have known at that time what jenova cells would do to a foetus; even the respected and moralistic professor gast had a great interest in this project to "recreate the ancients."  after learning from ifalna that jenova was *not* an ancient, he left the project due to ethical concerns -- but shinra continued it without him.  is dr gast culpable for not stopping the project then and there?  can we push sephiroth's death on him?  vincent's "sin" was allowing lucrecia to turn into a quasi-human because of the effect of jenova cells.  his sin was failing to save the one he loved.

Skipping over DoC stuff that I don't have access to, I agree with you on the last line. That is what Vincent considers his greatest sin. However, allowing Sephiroth to live as he has for the past 25-30 years weighs on his conscience as well in all likelihood. He was the victim of everything that happened so long ago. I explained my view on what Gast thought happened and then found out later.

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the only reason they did this is to satisfy the BADAZZGOTHMAN fanchildren like, ostensibly, yourself.

I take that as the insult it was intended to be. I thought we were arguing substance rather than trying to start a squabble in a sandbox. I guess I'm at the wrong party.

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tifa was the sole reason that cloud was able to recover into a "normal" frame of mind (seeing her triggered the mimetic properties of his jenova cells, which read her mind and created a persona based on his own conception of the "ideal" cloud and the truths remembered by tifa).  hell, tifa was the only reason cloud wanted to join SOLDIER in the first place.  furthermore, tifa was the *only* person in the world who could have saved cloud from himself post mideel.  without the presence of his childhood friend, he would never have been able to rectify the mako/jenova psychosis from the life-saving operations and jenova experimentation he underwent post-nibelheim incident.  it was impossible for cloud to have discovered his "old self" on his own; the personality he had created after being reduced to vegetation by mako poisioning was a direct result of jenova-copying and it would have been impossible for him to discern accurately which part of his consciousness was real and which was not, especially with sephiroth screwing with his mind all thru the game.

Tifa was the last character added to the game. I don't know how they would have presented this, but she originally was not in Cloud's head nor the inspiration to go into SOLDIER. Perhaps using Aerith as they did in in AC? Daddy issues? Who knows. I didn't write the game, nor have I seen the first drafts. However, they somehow planned to do this without her before they came up with the idea of the love triangle and adding another female to the party. Don't bite the messenger.

I love Tifa. She is one of my favorite FF females. It doesn't change that she initially was not required in the storyline and then even in the final draft could have been replaced by ghost!Aerith for a few of those inner revelations. I do agree that her character fulfilled an emotional character area in the game and that she helped kick the plot along, like everyone else. The point of the example was not to devalue the character but rather present why I think Vincent should be on a similar level.

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the way the game played out, every single *main* party character ended up being a necessary addition: cid brought the transport, barrett introduced cloud to the anti-shinra cause, aeirth summoned holy, red introduced the clan to bugen (who was essential), cait sith got the black materia, and tifa saved cloud.  the reason all these characters were 100% essential to the story of ff7 is because *that is how the story played out;* the writers chose to make all of those characters essential to the unfolding events of the story, and to excellent result (with, perhaps, the exception of the faux-sympathetic cait sith v1 suicide).

As I said, Cid was the token way to get the airship. Red was the token way to get to the wise man. They are all valid supporting characters, but it still ultimately revolves around Cloud, his eco mission incurred by Barrett, and Aerith's connection to the planet. Everything and everyone else is arguably means to an end, including Vincent. I'm not trying to convince you that Vincent needs to rank up there with those big three. I simply believe he has the same importance as Cid or Tifa on that second tier and somewhere higher than Yuffie, who truly is optional. You can still get to Wutaii without her. It's not as entertaining, but you can do it.

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get off of vincent; he's not *that* cool. 

Keep the sand in the sandbox.

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all rhea was saying, and she was totally right -- vincent's backstory, while a nice tidbit of an addition to the ff7 gaming experience, is far and away extraneous, and had vincent not even ever have existed, sephiroth STILL would have been created under shinra's ancient-revival project, headed by profs gast and hojo.

Correct. Just as Cid wouldn't have mattered if he had never been in the Shinra space program or owned the Highwind or if Red had never gotten captured by Hojo or if Tifa had never been included in the game in the first place or had known Cloud in childhood.

Why is everyone bothered about Vincent not being a main character? He got his own game didn't he? Play that if you want him as the lead.

And although I like Vincent's character, he's a bit too gothic and silent for my liking. But that's just me.

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I will never be a memory

Quote (Light of Judgement @ 12th June 2006 19:37)

Why is everyone bothered about Vincent not being a main character? He got his own game didn't he? Play that if you want him as the lead.

And although I like Vincent's character, he's a bit too gothic and silent for my liking. But that's just me.

Not really,sometimes when he talks it's a bit bright im pretty one time he even said sorry.

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Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

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Shinra is a company that cares about results. It does not care about side effects and the cost. However, Professor Gast has been established as being a good man and caring about what happened to Sephiroth; he seems to have had contact and a mentor-student relationship with the boy even after he left the company. Although he was stationed at the mansion at the start of the experiment, only Hojo, Lucrecia, and Vincent are established as being there the whole time. Offhand, I would say that Gast did not necessarily know how sick Lucrecia had become, nor would he be an advocate of shooting whoever got in the way. Gast did not leave Shinra until a year or so after the birth of the boy, ergo I don't think he knew how Lucrecia "died" until that point. Additionally, I would not put it past Hojo to say that Lucrecia died in childbirth rather than disappearing or dying due to sickness incurred by Jenova. Since Gast was gone, Hojo was more or less free to tell people whatever he wanted, thus Sephiroth thought that his mother was an Ancient woman named Jenova that died shortly after his birth rather than a strain of intergalactic bacteria.

as i said in the first post, gast left the experiment only after finding out that jenova was not an ancient (having been informed by his future lover/wife-figure, ifalna, who truly was the last living ancient on the planet). the ultimania omega gives a figure: "several years" after the birth of sephiroth. however, before finding out that jenova was not an ancient, professor gast was in charge of the project he himself proposed to shinra -- the jenova project -- aimed at producing a human with the capabilities of an ancient from jenova's genetic material. hojo and lucrecia, gast's right- and left-hand assistants on the project, offered their unborn child for prenatal engineering. the research that led to shinra's soldier project was done under professor gast. AND to top it all off, shinra knew about all of this and put hojo in direction of the jenova project (not to mention gave him the go for his sephiroth clones project) after gast left. the rest of this stuff you';re saying, it's all totally conjecture -- and doesn't even fit the evidence we *are* given. gast must have seen the ill effects of the experimentation on the early soldier guinea pigs and lucrecia herself -- this must have contributed to his guilt that ultimately led to his resignation from shinra.

now, for vincent -- he was just a bodyguard assigned to the project who happened to be hopelessly in love with lucrecia. it may make for a touching story, if that's your sort of thing, but he's certainly irrelevant to the story. the jenova project was professor gast's idea -- he wanted to revive the cetra race. nothing vincent did or didn't do could have either facilitated or prevented the creation of sephiroth.

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Hojo is depraved, no argument. However, he is not a gun-toting psycho. If he shot anyone that got in his way, then he could have easily shot Scarlet, Palmer, President Shinra, etc. He did shoot Vincent, but I believe Vincent was a good enough Turk to figure out whether or not Hojo was armed at all times, so he was willing to risk going in unarmed. Hojo fatally shooting him was a surprise. Same thing happened to Gast, who likely did not know what exactly happened to Vincent either. Hojo likely covered up Gast's death as well; Sephiroth even says "Why did you die?" He doesn't know that Hojo shot and killed him. Hojo is devious and very good at covering his tracks.

Shinra knew about the experiment. They knew that the mother had died. I don't know what they thought happened to Lucrecia and Vincent. However, they likely did not know that Hojo shot and killed one of their Turks and made Lucrecia fatally ill with Jenova, not mention killed their former star scientist who had retired.

why would he kill anyone in shinra? how are they standing in his way? to the contrary, the shinra company is making his research possible. he *did* order the killing of professor gast. he shot vincent. he tried to mate red xiii with aerith. he has all the makings of a "gun-toting psycho." all this fanblather about vincent being a such a good turk -- actually, vincent is painted by the producers as being blinded to insensibility by his love for lucrecia during this time. surely he just got too much into hojo's face about the experiments and what they were doing to lucrecia, who was carrying hojo's child, and hojo had enough.

shinra could have cared less about what hojo did so long as he gave them their results. they even approved the sephiroth clones project. in fact, the company took it upon itself to cover up quite nicely for the incident at nibelheim, which was hojo's fault -- and then apparently let him continue with his depraved experiments and the sephiroth clones research anyway. gast wasn't working for them any longer when hojo killed him; it's unlikely they would have cared. they must have figured out something had happened to vincent, anyway. did no one from shinra ever search the mansion after hojo and lucrecia left?

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Vincent not only stood in his way scientifically, but he stood in the way when it came to obtaining Lucrecia in the first place; he was in love with her. Even if she did not return that love back, he was still interested in her and wanted to be in her life. When she turned him down romantically, he resigned himself with "As long as she's happy, I don't mind." Hojo knows that Vincent still loves her, even if she is his wife. Hojo probably is three chalupas short of a Taco Bell and does not deal with jealousy or awkward situations well. He hates Vincent for even presenting a threat to the experiment and to Lucrecia's loyalty to him.

actually, i'm fairly certain hojo could have cared less if lucrecia was sleeping even with rufus shinra, he just wanted to have his experiment. by that time, anyway, lucracia had fallen ill and become disfigured by exposure to jenova. hojo didn't care for her; why should he care if she cares for him? he doesn't seem to care at all otherwise what other people think of him. vincent was just an obstacle or an annoyance to hojo. it's not like he posed any fatal threats to hojo's plans.

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Skipping over DoC stuff that I don't have access to, I agree with you on the last line. That is what Vincent considers his greatest sin. However, allowing Sephiroth to live as he has for the past 25-30 years weighs on his conscience as well in all likelihood. He was the victim of everything that happened so long ago. I explained my view on what Gast thought happened and then found out later.

yes, most certainly -- it's given that vincent was strongly opposed to the genetic experimentation on humans -- especially lucrecia -- being carried out in the jenova project. surely he feels respoensible, as an official (though unrelated directly) assignee to the project, for some of its outcomes. but this doesn't make him by any means an important character.

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I take that as the insult it was intended to be. I thought we were arguing substance rather than trying to start a squabble in a sandbox. I guess I'm at the wrong party.

see, now here i thought we were arguing ffvii, when we're really arguing what guitar slayer thinks would make for a great story that beefs up vincent's relevance.

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ifa was the last character added to the game. I don't know how they would have presented this, but she originally was not in Cloud's head nor the inspiration to go into SOLDIER. Perhaps using Aerith as they did in in AC? Daddy issues? Who knows. I didn't write the game, nor have I seen the first drafts. However, they somehow planned to do this without her before they came up with the idea of the love triangle and adding another female to the party. Don't bite the messenger.

I love Tifa. She is one of my favorite FF females. It doesn't change that she initially was not required in the storyline and then even in the final draft could have been replaced by ghost!Aerith for a few of those inner revelations. I do agree that her character fulfilled an emotional character area in the game and that she helped kick the plot along, like everyone else. The point of the example was not to devalue the character but rather present why I think Vincent should be on a similar level.

As I said, Cid was the token way to get the airship. Red was the token way to get to the wise man. They are all valid supporting characters, but it still ultimately revolves around Cloud, his eco mission incurred by Barrett, and Aerith's connection to the planet. Everything and everyone else is arguably means to an end, including Vincent. I'm not trying to convince you that Vincent needs to rank up there with those big three. I simply believe he has the same importance as Cid or Tifa on that second tier and somewhere higher than Yuffie, who truly is optional. You can still get to Wutaii without her. It's not as entertaining, but you can do it.

yes -- tifa was not originally in kitase's version of the game, and aerith wasn't originally even supposed to die, either. it was nomura who suggested to kitase as they were discussing the game one night, "let's kill aerith and bring in tifa," thus introducing the most kickass of all final fantasy females to the table. however, i made it fairly clear in the original post that i was referring to the only actually relevant copy of the script -- the one that went to press. and at any rate, i liked tifa way more than i liked aerith, and i think aerith's dying and the lifestream bit were great elements of the plot -- so, of course, i support the introduction of tifa and her role in the plot. there is no use in arguing tifa's importance to an earlier ff7 game concept which is not even remotely known. she was absolutely a necessary character in ff7, the game, the one that you can actually buy on ps2 discs. vincent still isn't. it was nice to have access to vincent's backstory in the original ff7. it shed a bit of light on the jenova project and sephiroth's creation -- back before ultimania omega and doc and all these spinoffs, it was the best we had, a few pieces here and there to have to piece together to get what was really going on in ff7. and yet vincent was just a tool by which the really interesting information -- the jenova project, and how sephiroth was created -- could be delivered to the exploratory player. by no means can you argue that he was as essential to the plot as tifa or even cid.

cid, at one point, leads the party. he uses his connections with the shinra space program to help get a huge materia. he saves you with the highwind when you escape from junon. he's far more essential than vincent, who was once in love with sephiroth's mother. oh, and by the way, sorry, but "aerith's contribution to the planet" wasn't even in the original version of the script (the one that tifa wasn't in), as she was supposed to stay alive. you can't take one and leave the other. no three characters were as important as tifa, cloud, and aerith to the story of ff7. no two characters were as frivolous as yuffie and vincent, who were both only vehicles to access some bonus material and a few bits of backstory.

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Correct. Just as Cid wouldn't have mattered if he had never been in the Shinra space program or owned the Highwind or if Red had never gotten captured by Hojo or if Tifa had never been included in the game in the first place or had known Cloud in childhood.

rofl, what exactly are you trying to say, here? i said EVEN if vincent had never existed, nothing would have changed. you're throwing around a bunch of hypothetical "ifs" that would have changed the story of ff7 considerably. cid *did* matter, because he *was* in the space program, and *was* involved in the development of the highwind. red *did* matter, because he *was* an acquiantance of bugenhagen. tifa *did* matter, because she was the *only* one who could have saved cloud from the jenova psychosis. this is how ff7 played out. vincent, in contrast, was extraneous. in spite of his being related to the jenova project in a somewhat indirect fashion, his presence did not influence the events that led to the creation of sephiroth and soldier.

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the ultimania omega gives a figure: "several years" after the birth of sephiroth.  however, before finding out that jenova was not an ancient, professor gast was in charge of the project he himself proposed to shinra -- the jenova project -- aimed at producing a human with the capabilities of an ancient from jenova's genetic material.  hojo and lucrecia, gast's right- and left-hand assistants on the project, offered their unborn child for prenatal engineering.  the research that led to shinra's soldier project was done under professor gast.  AND to top it all off, shinra knew about all of this and put hojo in direction of the jenova project (not to mention gave him the go for his sephiroth clones project) after gast left.  the rest of this stuff you';re saying, it's all totally conjecture -- and doesn't even fit the evidence we *are* given.  gast must have seen the ill effects of the experimentation on the early soldier guinea pigs and lucrecia herself -- this must have contributed to his guilt that ultimately led to his resignation from shinra.

Gast is conspicuously absent from the Shinra mansion scenes after the project's first introduction. All we see after that are Vincent, Hojo, and Lucrecia. Not even during the scene with Lucrecia's decision do we see Gast. It's Hojo, Vincent, and her.

Generally, one would expect the head honcho on a project like this to scuttle back and forth between the field and the HQ in Midgar. You are correct that it is speculation, but given what we know of Gast and what his final actions were (and given Hojo and his own track record), it would not be out of the realm of possibility that Gast did not find out what happened until later.

As for knowing what was going on with SOLDIER, that may not be possible. The SOLDIER project did not begin until it was sure that Sephiroth would survive. Considering that the mother died, it would have been prudent for Shinra to wait until they were sure before more spending money on this "super trooper" idea. Also, the child has to learn to walk before he can march. As a result, SOLDIER is younger than Sephiroth. The organization is established somewhere between 27 (after Gast left and Sephiroth survived) and 10 years ago, as Zack joins up ten years before the game.

According to the math, Gast left Shinra roughly 29 to 23 years before the game started because he found out that Jenova was not an Ancient. Additionally during the end of this period, Aerith had to have been conceived to be 22 during the game. So during this time he found Ifalna and hid in Icicle Inn with her. Hojo was chasing them for two years so he could experiment on a legitimate Ancient (starting roughly 23 to 24 before the game). At one point during the last confrontation, it is implied that Hojo has experimented on Ifalna in the past and wants to go back to work.

Gast says during the cutscene he is severing all ties to Shinra now that Hojo has pursued them. He has been missing for two years. That indicates he does have some loose ties, but not a binding job anymore for at least two years before Aerith is born. Sephiroth was only about seven at the time, and he was the first SOLDIER. I doubt Gast would have seen a) ill effects as Sephiroth was engineered not to have them; and b. other SOLDIERs yet because Sephiroth had to be the first, and I doubt they put him on a battlefield at age 7.

I would speculate that SOLDIER started during the Wutaii conflict, as that is how General Sephiroth became famous as a teenager. Given how fierce Wutaii was, it would make sense their would make an elite force as well as the Junon cannon to combat it. That would move the unit's creation to about fifteen years ago, long after Gast was dead.

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now, for vincent -- he was just a bodyguard assigned to the project o happened to be hopelessly in love with lucrecia.  it may make for a touching story, if that's your sort of thing, but he's certainly irrelevant to the story.  the jenova project was professor gast's idea -- he wanted to revive the cetra race.  nothing vincent did or didn't do could have either facilitated or prevented the creation of sephiroth.

Sephiroth would have existed, but perhaps not as the nutty general as we knew him in the game. Once again, I have to say that Vincent presented a legitimate threat to Hojo in some form for that man to go as far as he did to shut him up. He shot Gast because he got in the way of his experiment on the Ancients. Vincent must have presented as a similarly sized risk in some fashion, or else he could have just called up Shinra HQ and said "This Turk is inadequate, please send another." Gast left in due to guilt, but if he could have stopped the wheels from turning on the project, he would have. It was too late by then.

Additionally, the Sephiroth project is why Vincent feels guilty. He was unable to stop the project. "This body is... the punishment that's been given to me...I
was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo... And Lucrecia... I was
unable to stop them...All that I was able to do was watch... That is my
punishment..." (from kuponut.com; I'm not THAT pathetic to replay through, despite contrary claims by my fencing partner here )

Now, I understand that the above could contradict my claim that Gast didn't know about Lucrecia's death until later, but on the other hand, it was his project, as gozaru said. Also, Gast probably would have been the one to tell if something with the project went awry. Gast was excited to produce an Ancient, but at what cost? Additionally, Vincent still spoke of him with great respect rather than in the same tone as he did Hojo in the game. Given that Vincent has been out cold for 30 years and does not know of Gast's later actions (leaving, corresponding with Sephiroth, his family, etc), Gast must not have been a "bad guy" during the project itself. I doubt he would have that opinion if Gast showed up in the basement with an "Aw, shucks, Hojo, why'd you do that for?"

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why would he kill anyone in shinra?  how are they standing in his way?  to the contrary, the shinra company is making his research possible.  he *did* order the killing of professor gast.  he shot vincent.  he tried to mate red xiii with aerith.  he has all the makings of a "gun-toting psycho."  all this fanblather about vincent being a such a good turk -- actually, vincent is painted by the producers as being blinded to insensibility by his love for lucrecia during this time.  surely he just got too much into hojo's face about the experiments and what they were doing to lucrecia, who was carrying hojo's child, and hojo had enough.

That's what fans argue everyday. Did Lucrecia love him back at point? Was it infatuation? What happened at the gates? It's speculation and interpretation both on the fans and on your part. AC will probably illuminate more what happened back then. Welcome to the endless debate.

Turks weren't nice people to start with; they were assassins and the very best people at what they did. However, it is arguable that Vincent was a "good" Turk (in the sense he was good at what he did rather than being an actual "good" person) because he was assigned to this project. Gast was head of the research department at the time, so protecting him was a fairly important assignment. I do agree that Vincent definitely got madder than he normally would have if it wasn't Lucrecia. But that's the tragic love aspect.

As for the guntoting psycho bit, my point was that Hojo has a little more refinement than that. He's an unholy terror in the sense of Dr. Frankenstein rather than Jason. I consider Hojo to be a more complex character and the most dangerous one in the game, even more so than Sephiroth. Sephiroth may have the power and the "destroy the world" idea, but Hojo probably would want to do other things to the world that are even less tasteful.

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in fact, the company took it upon itself to cover up quite nicely for the incident at nibelheim, which was hojo's fault -- and then apparently let him continue with his depraved experiments and the sephiroth clones research anyway.  gast wasn't working for them any longer when hojo killed him; it's unlikely they would have cared.  they must have figured out something had happened to vincent, anyway.  did no one from shinra ever search the mansion after hojo and lucrecia left?

At this stage, SOLDIER is a sizeable program. Sephiroth was good looking, smart, and a praised General. It's not good PR for your general to go crazy and destroy an entire town. Additionally, the Clone project was likely created to make a Sephiroth super-army. Sephiroth was the best of the best, so why not more best of the best? Ok, so they're a little unstable...but they're good!

Gast had disappeared and was hiding when Hojo found him. Sephiroth says he "died" not that he was killed, indicating that he didn't know what happened to him exactly.

Lastly, from various sources, it sounds like Hojo ordered everything to be sealed up immediately after Sephiroth was born and taken back to Midgar. The first person in again is Sephiroth 25+ years later when he does research on his beginnings. Then the mansion houses the Clone project, and once that fails, Hojo either seals up the mansion again until our happy troops show up or the mansion, which has fallen into disrepair, wards off nosey people.

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actually, i'm fairly certain hojo could have cared less if lucrecia was sleeping even with rufus shinra, he just wanted to have his experiment.  by that time, anyway, lucracia had fallen ill and become disfigured by exposure to jenova.  hojo didn't care for her; why should he care if she cares for him?  he doesn't seem to care at all otherwise what other people think of him.  vincent was just an obstacle or an annoyance to hojo.  it's not like he posed any fatal threats to hojo's plans.

Rufus Shinra's in utero or something And if Vincent wasn't a real threat or if there weren't additional feelings involved, why would Hojo go so far as to shoot him and mutilate him? Hojo is crazy but not stupid crazy. In the name of science, maybe, but he would have a ton of viable "volunteers" back at Midgar that could never endanger him.

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see, now here i thought we were arguing ffvii, when we're really arguing what guitar slayer thinks would make for a great story that beefs up vincent's relevance.

CAERFUL OR IL S3ND MAH BOYFREIND AFTER U11!!!1! Enough with the personal attacks.

Getting back to civility, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point as to how severe a threat Vincent was, being as I'm not going to budge and neither are you.

As to his significance to the plot, he may not supply a game machination such as the rocket launch or the death penalty sequence with Tifa, but I believe that he should have been a required part of the game as he adds so much to the understanding of Sephiroth, Hojo, Gast, and Shinra itself. It gives greater, more far-reaching perspective and truly enriches the game to know what happened 30+ years ago and what started this whole planetary mess. I guess it depends on how much importance you place on the past and how it relates to this game. It also depends on your interpretation of Hojo as well the pre-coffin Vincent himself.

Until all of that is reconciled, it's going to be me and you going back and forth about what is the appropriate level of respect a video game character should get.

Which is kind of silly, even for my airheaded Vinnie fangirl standards....squee.

This post has been edited by The Guitar Slayer on 12th June 2006 23:59

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Gast is conspicuously absent from the Shinra mansion scenes after the project's firs.......combat it. That would move the unit's creation to about fifteen years ago, long after Gast was dead.

for all of this i can simply direct you to the ultimania omega, which tells us that gast's research was responsible for the soldier program. the guide further tells us that gast did not remove himself from the project until several years after the birth of sephiroth. like i said in the last post.

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Sephiroth would have existed, but perhaps not as the nutty general as we knew him in the game. Once again, I have to say that Vincent presented a legitimate threat to Hojo in some form for that man to go as far as he did to shut him up. He shot Gast because he got in the way of his experiment on the Ancients. Vincent must have presented as a similarly sized risk in some fashion, or else he could have just called up Shinra HQ and said "This Turk is inadequate, please send another." Gast left in due to guilt, but if he could have stopped the wheels from turning on the project, he would have. It was too late by then.

uh, no, he shot gast to steal aerith. hojo didn't have a big project on the ancients. that was gast's field. hojo just started a project after stealing gast's files and learning of the "promised land." he shot both gast and vincent out of convenience.

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Additionally, the Sephiroth project is why Vincent feels guilty. He was unable to stop the project. "This body is... the punishment that's been given to me...I
was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo... And Lucrecia... I was
unable to stop them...All that I was able to do was watch... That is my
punishment..."

yes, he says that -- but what curses himself from not stopping is the experimentation on lucrecia that led to her becoming so monstrous she could not even commit suicide with all the regenerative jenova cells inside of her. it's not sephiroth. both doc and the ultimania omega confirm that failing to protect lucrecia is what vincent considers his "sin."

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Now, I understand that the above could contradict my claim that Gast didn't know about Lucrecia's death until later, but on the other hand, it was his project, as gozaru said. Also, Gast probably would have been the one to tell if something with the project went awry. Gast was excited to produce an Ancient, but at what cost? Additionally, Vincent still spoke of him with great respect rather than in the same tone as he did Hojo in the game. Given that Vincent has been out cold for 30 years and does not know of Gast's later actions (leaving, corresponding with Sephiroth, his family, etc), Gast must not have been a "bad guy" during the project itself. I doubt he would have that opinion if Gast showed up in the basement with an "Aw, shucks, Hojo, why'd you do that for?"

i don't know why you keep referring to lucrecia's "death." at any rate, i'm sure professor gast found out about the negative effects of the jenova treatment on lucrecia -- like i said earlier (common theme), it's surely one of the many things that contributed to his guilt in heading the project that led to his resignation and self-seclusion. i don't think he's a "bad guy," either, but he was still responsible for the ideas and research that spawned the jenova and soldier projects.

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That's what fans argue everyday. Did Lucrecia love him back at point? Was it infatuation? What happened at the gates? It's speculation and interpretation both on the fans and on your part. AC will probably illuminate more what happened back then. Welcome to the endless debate.

Turks weren't nice people to start with; they were assassins and the very best people at what they did. However, it is arguable that Vincent was a "good" Turk (in the sense he was good at what he did rather than being an actual "good" person) because he was assigned to this project. Gast was head of the research department at the time, so protecting him was a fairly important assignment. I do agree that Vincent definitely got madder than he normally would have if it wasn't Lucrecia. But that's the tragic love aspect.

the tragic love aspect has been highlighted by the developers in interviews. i'm not saying vincent wasn't an accomplished turks operative. i'm sure he was, if he was put in charge of such an important project as the jenova project. i am saying, however, that the reason he got shot was that he let his emotions get the best of him. his whole thing was about lucrecia.

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At this stage, SOLDIER is a sizeable program. Sephiroth was good looking, smart, and a praised General. It's not good PR for your general to go crazy and destroy an entire town. Additionally, the Clone project was likely created to make a Sephiroth super-army. Sephiroth was the best of the best, so why not more best of the best? Ok, so they're a little unstable...but they're good!

Gast had disappeared and was hiding when Hojo found him. Sephiroth says he "died" not that he was killed, indicating that he didn't know what happened to him exactly.

Lastly, from various sources, it sounds like Hojo ordered everything to be sealed up immediately after Sephiroth was born and taken back to Midgar. The first person in again is Sephiroth 25+ years later when he does research on his beginnings. Then the mansion houses the Clone project, and once that fails, Hojo either seals up the mansion again until our happy troops show up or the mansion, which has fallen into disrepair, wards off nosey people.

you're not saying anything new here. the point is that all of the evidence shows that shinra fully supported the twisted experiments of dr hojo 100%. do they have potentially selfish reasons for doing so? sure, absolutely. but they still support hojo for what his programs do for them, and by this time gast had resigned from the company and was providing them with nothing. i don't believe hojo did ever admit that he ordered gast shot, but, like i said before, the evidence suggests that shinra couldn't have cared less.

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Rufus Shinra's in utero or something blink.gif And if Vincent wasn't a real threat or if there weren't additional feelings involved, why would Hojo go so far as to shoot him and mutilate him? Hojo is crazy but not stupid crazy. In the name of science, maybe, but he would have a ton of viable "volunteers" back at Midgar that could never endanger him.

hojo mutilated lots of people during the sephiroth clones project, going so far as to turn some of them completely into monster. vincent was an accomplished turk with most likely a strong constitution if he was placed as a bodyguard, maybe hojo figured this was 1) a prime way to keep the still-living vincent under wraps and 2) a perfect opportunity to use a top-shape human specimen for these beast experiments. hojo never shows any capability or hint of romantic affection/attraction/jealousy in the game; he is a deranged scientist whose entire life is dedicated to the pursuit of sick biological experiments. it's one thing to read between the lines. it's another thing to draw whole new lines across the page.

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CAERFUL OR IL S3ND MAH BOYFREIND AFTER U11!!!1! rolleyes.gif Enough with the personal attacks.

Getting back to civility, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point as to how severe a threat Vincent was, being as I'm not going to budge and neither are you.

As to his significance to the plot, he may not supply a game machination such as the rocket launch or the death penalty sequence with Tifa, but I believe that he should have been a required part of the game as he adds so much to the understanding of Sephiroth, Hojo, Gast, and Shinra itself. It gives greater, more far-reaching perspective and truly enriches the game to know what happened 30+ years ago and what started this whole planetary mess. I guess it depends on how much importance you place on the past and how it relates to this game. It also depends on your interpretation of Hojo as well the pre-coffin Vincent himself.

Until all of that is reconciled, it's going to be me and you going back and forth about what is the appropriate level of respect a video game character should get.

Which is kind of silly, even for my airheaded Vinnie fangirl standards....squee.

the only thing silly is that you continuously introduce your own wishful conceptions of the events (which unambiguously paint vincent in the best light possible) in light of the granted facts by the ff7 canon and the developers.

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for all of this i can simply direct you to the ultimania omega, which tells us that gast's research was responsible for the soldier program.  the guide further tells us that gast did not remove himself from the project until several years after the birth of sephiroth.  like i said in the last post.

I did not say anything to the contrary. Yes, Gast's work on the Sephiroth project led into the SOLDIER project, as Sephy was the first soldier. However, can you specify which program he removed himself from? Jenova or SOLDIER?

Also as I said, Gast left Shinra sometime between 1 and 7 years after the experiment, 29 years ago if he immediately left and 23 years if he left just short of Aerith's conception and birth.

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uh, no, he shot gast to steal aerith. hojo didn't have a big project on the ancients.  that was gast's field.  hojo just started a project after stealing gast's files and learning of the "promised land."  he shot both gast and vincent out of convenience.

Aerith is an Ancient as is her mother. Gast stood between Hojo and his two perfect Ancient test subjects. Once again, I did not contradict you. Here is the quote from the game (kuponut.com again)

Hojo: "Heh, heh, heh...... I've been searching for you, Ifalna... or should I say, Cetra! Long time no see, Professor Gast!"

(Cetra = Ancient)

Gast: "Hojo... How did you know?"

Hojo "Believe me, I had to turn over a stone or two to find you. Two years I waited.... That's how much I wanted this new sample..... Ha, ha, ha."

(He needed a new sample of the Cetra. That means he HAS been working on the Ancients in some fashion)

Gast: "...New sample? You don't mean Aeris!?"

Hojo: "Hmm, Aeris? What a nice name...... Ha, ha, ha."

Gast: "That's it! I'm severing all ties with the Shinra. Hojo, please leave."

(Ifalna kneels on the floor before Hojo.)

Ifalna: "Please, Aeris has nothing to do with it! All you want is me, right?"

(This indicates that Ifalna was once part of Hojo's experiments with the Ancients before.)

Gast: "Ifalna!"

Hojo: "I'll need all of you for my experiment. You understand, don't you, Professor Gast? We can change the future of the Planet!"

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yes, he says that -- but what curses himself from not stopping is the experimentation on lucrecia that led to her becoming so monstrous she could not even commit suicide with all the regenerative jenova cells inside of her.  it's not sephiroth.  both doc and the ultimania omega confirm that failing to protect lucrecia is what vincent considers his "sin."

I understand that, but in such a deep game like FF7, characters rarely have one motivation. Barrett wants to save the planet. But doesn't he also want to piss off Shinra and save Marlene as well? The causes are related to one another and doing what he does accomplishes all three. Same goes for Vincent -- he joins the party to get at Hojo according to the game text. He failed to protect Lucrecia, failed to stop the experiment, and failed to do his duty as a Turk.

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i don't know why you keep referring to lucrecia's "death."  at any rate, i'm sure professor gast found out about the negative effects of the jenova treatment on lucrecia -- like i said earlier (common theme), it's surely one of the many things that contributed to his guilt in heading the project that led to his resignation and self-seclusion.  i don't think he's a "bad guy," either, but he was still responsible for the ideas and research that spawned the jenova and soldier projects.

I refer to "death" because some people debate whether we're seeing mutated, miserable Lucrecia or unsettled spirit Lucrecia, both of which can't reenter the lifestream. Either way, she's not all the human anymore. She's either suffered a spiritual or physical death and is stuck in the cave. (I have not played DoC).

Either way, it doesn't say when Gast found out, whether it was immediately or after Hojo had cleaned up. I agree with you that his ideas and research spawned the projects that Shinra took up not long after her left.

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the tragic love aspect has been highlighted by the developers in interviews.  i'm not saying vincent wasn't an accomplished turks operative.  i'm sure he was, if he was put in charge of such an important project as the jenova project.  i am saying, however, that the reason he got shot was that he let his emotions get the best of him.  his whole thing was about lucrecia.

I haven't said anything contrary to that either. If it was not Lucrecia, Vincent likely would not have put his nose in it. Sadly, the Vincent and Hojo scene where they are arguing is silent for the most part, so we don't know what Vincent exactly said that made Hojo pull the gun on him. Hence we don't know if a threat was made or if it was an insult or not. "Insensibile" perhaps wasn't the best word to use.

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you're not saying anything new here.

But you asked

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did no one from shinra ever search the mansion after hojo and lucrecia left?

I was simply being thorough.

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the point is that all of the evidence shows that shinra fully supported the twisted experiments of dr hojo 100%.  do they have potentially selfish reasons for doing so?  sure, absolutely.  but they still support hojo for what his programs do for them, and by this time gast had resigned from the company and was providing them with nothing.  i don't believe hojo did ever admit that he ordered gast shot, but, like i said before, the evidence suggests that shinra couldn't have cared less.

Shinra wanted the results. They didn't care how they got them. That's correct. But if they KNOW how Hojo got them and then the media or someone finds out, they are accountable. Shinra likely has turned the blind eye to Hojo and his work; "give us the results, don't go into the details of HOW you did it." If they don't see it, it doesn't exist. Don't ask, don't tell. Everyone works happier if Hojo keeps his perversity to himself. If Hojo is ever exposed, Shinra can easily turn around and say "He kept it hidden from us!" If Shinra was ever disrupted, Hojo would be able to save his own hide and escape with his own work.

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hojo mutilated lots of people during the sephiroth clones project, going so far as to turn some of them completely into monster.  vincent was an accomplished turk with most likely a strong constitution if he was placed as a bodyguard, maybe hojo figured this was 1) a prime way to keep the still-living vincent under wraps and 2) a perfect opportunity to use a top-shape human specimen for these beast experiments.  hojo never shows any capability or hint of romantic affection/attraction/jealousy in the game; he is a deranged scientist whose entire life is dedicated to the pursuit of sick biological experiments.  it's one thing to read between the lines.  it's another thing to draw whole new lines across the page.

You do have good points as to why Hojo would keep Vincent as he is. However, given that we haven't come across another experiment quite like Vincent or even resembling a man with three or more demons inflicted upon him with antiaging properties (so that he stuck like that, literally, forever), it would make me think that there is some sort of anger and revenge directed at the Turk. The other creatures we saw seem to be part of the Clone project (the numbers) or the Jenova project (the creatures in the tanks at Niebelheim).

As for lack of attraction, he seems pretty lovey kissy with Lucrecia at the gate in the flashback, plus he has his girls at Costa del Sol. However, regardless of attraction, I believe that Hojo has a strong sense of property and possession. HIS experiments. HIS child. HIS wife. HIS work. HIS domain. It is my belief that Vincent threatens at least one of the above which caused Hojo to shoot him. Hojo is power hungry and he wants to control all around him. It's not jealousy, and it's not attraction, but it's a feeling that's equally as powerful in terms of what it makes humans do. Any threat to his power to dictate how HIS work goes must be eliminated -- Vincent and Gast.

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the only thing silly is that you continuously introduce your own wishful conceptions of the events (which unambiguously paint vincent in the best light possible) in light of the granted facts by the ff7 canon and the developers.

Dear, it's a video game and a piece of art. Ease up a bit, huh? Plenty is up for interpretation. It's hardly silly, as I've attempted to back up my reasoning with in-game references as well as events that happened afterwards. It's a question of the characters' "human nature" (as human as video sprites get as they go). What, may I ask, is completely outrageous that I've introduced? Have I reached the level of "Sephiroth's daddy is really Vincent OMG!!"? I'd certainly hope not!

I admit, I do enjoy the Vincent character. However, I wouldn't dump myself so soon into the category of mindless Vinnie-Winnie worship. I've attempted to come across as fairly reasonable. I've not tried to present anything as absolute fact or enforce my beliefs on others. Possibilities, that's all.

Perhaps since you have access to DoC you have more perspective on what happened overall, but I find that overly aggressively fighting over a game or a cartoon tends to make the subject rather distasteful to both parties. That is, the game stops being fun.

This post has been edited by The Guitar Slayer on 13th June 2006 03:23

You both have presented excellent arguments. But what some people seem to lose sight of is what we're actually talking about. We're not debating Vincent's history, or what he could have or should have done. None of that matters. We do know everything he did. Not what he said, and not his reasons for doing it, but his actions are known. Slayer, if he was going "expose" Hojo and his horrific experiments, first off, no one would know except the Shinra. Aeris makes a point of saying once, that Shinra owns the newspapers, so you can't trust what the media says. And since the Shinra have shown many times that their only concerns are power and money, not justice and morality, I doubt they would have stopped it. After all, they were likely getting one, if not many, super-soldiers, whom no one would dare stand against. Second, it really doesn't matter. Whatever he planned to do, he obviously didn't. Things went on as if there was no Vincent. Hojo might have even forgotten entirely about the guy he locked in the basement of a haunted mansion. What I'm saying is, the events that caused everything that has anything to do with our beloved game happened at a time that one could say, Vincent Valentine did not exist. Yes, he was alive (if you can call sleeping in a coffin, surrounded by corpses "alive"), but he didn't do anything, didn't cause anything. Now, if something had shown us that, because of Vincent, Lucrecia did something to weaken Sephiroth or Hojo in a way that affected the game, I would say you're right. Or maybe Hojo felt guilty, and did something that altered the storyline. But nothing shows that this took place. Now, we can certainly speculate, but you can't very well back up your opinion with what you think.

Like I've said many times before, I'm not trying to degrade Vincent. He is a wonderful character, and I likely would never have picked this game up if a friend hadn't told me about a certain gothy gunslinger. And, I'm not saying that the game SHOULD have gone on without him, just that it COULD have. No, it wouldn't have the same feel to it, but you could say that about Priscilla, and she's not a main character, is she? Vincent deserved the place he was given, as a sidekick to Cloud, who occasionally appeared in all his wisdom to give us a few more clues as to Sephiroth's history. In fact, it is because he knows so much, that he must remain a minor character. Were he a major one, fans might wonder, "Well, if this guy knows so much, what's that airhead Cloud doing as the leader? I mean, he doesn't even know who he is, let alone anything about these other people." Then, everyone would be mad that, while Vincent is obviously the most important person in the game, everything's centered around Cloud. And we'd all be sitting here, debating why Cloud isn't a minor character, and why Vincent isn't the eternal leader, hero, and focus of the story.

This post has been edited by Rhea on 13th June 2006 06:14

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"If everything's a dream, don't wake me..."

It seems there are two main topics in this thread.

For the sort of... random Cait Sith part - I'm another of the people that like Cait Sith and I think it's a bit much to say that nobody likes him. If Squenix walk away from Cait Sith, I'm walking away from their new games.

I've never thought of Vincent's history before past the point of his death in the Shinra masion. It is like the Wutai war somewhat. You can't really give hard evidence as to what happened. I think that each player's interpretation is as good as the next. It is fun to debate it though!

I think Vincent is quite good the way he is as a secret. It's a bit like when you go back down into the masion cellar and see the clip of Zack and Cloud. It's almost like you unlock the story and the game is flexable enough to do without some characters much like Deus Ex. I didn't feel like I'd achieved much by getting him into my party nor does he exactly say much... It's a shame there's nowhere like Wutai where Vincent could come out and develop his character. We see lots of Yuffie storyline in Wutai and it gives her flavour.

Then again, as many people have said, Dirge is exactly this; a chance to develop Vincent.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

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I did not say anything to the contrary. Yes, Gast's work on the Sephiroth project led into the SOLDIER project, as Sephy was the first soldier. However, can you specify which program he removed himself from? Jenova or SOLDIER?

Also as I said, Gast left Shinra sometime between 1 and 7 years after the experiment, 29 years ago if he immediately left and 23 years if he left just short of Aerith's conception and birth.

there is never any indication of there having been a project known as "the soldier project." in fact, the jenova project (with the first result: sephiroth) likely is the only research contributing to shinra's heavily vested interest in soldier. probably gast did not propose the idea behind solider: genetically engineering an army of super-fighters. that was probably president shinra's idea.

the original argument was about shinra supposedly not knowing (and, in the case that they find out, not condoning), according to you, the details of hojo's research. i don't know why you keep getting further and further off-topic about gast, like it correlates to your literary buffing up of vincent somehow. the game establishes that NONE of the shinra execs (except reeve) have any smidgen of conscience. why would they care about hojo's sick experiments? why would they care about vincent revealing to them things similar to what they have condoned in the past? these are questions you strategically sidestep with each reply.

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Aerith is an Ancient as is her mother. Gast stood between Hojo and his two perfect Ancient test subjects. Once again, I did not contradict you. Here is the quote from the game (kuponut.com again)...Hojo: "I'll need all of you for my experiment. You understand, don't you, Professor Gast? We can change the future of the Planet!"

aerith is not a pureblooded cetra. as such, ifalna is the last true cetra.

also, you're reading the next scene all wrong. ifalna was never a part of the experiments in the jenova project. to the contrary, she voluntarily assisted dr gast in his research on the cetra by imparting stories about the weapons, the promised land, &c.; it was ifalna who told gast that jenova was not an ancient. presumably, hojo became interested in the research of the superior scientist (we're told that he's "a walking mass of complexes"), and sought him out, looking to steal his research and the ancient he had come to know, assumedly to incorporate some of that research into his own twisted biological engineering. hojo never headed a project on the cetra while dr gast was still at shinra, and never worked directly with them until after murdering dr gast.

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I understand that, but in such a deep game like FF7, characters rarely have one motivation. Barrett wants to save the planet. But doesn't he also want to piss off Shinra and save Marlene as well? The causes are related to one another and doing what he does accomplishes all three. Same goes for Vincent -- he joins the party to get at Hojo according to the game text. He failed to protect Lucrecia, failed to stop the experiment, and failed to do his duty as a Turk.

ok, sure, but the highlight of his character has always been and has always been meant to be the brooding romantic sorrow over his failure to protect the love of his life. he may feel guilty for having worked on the jenova and being therefore partly responsible for the creation of sephiroth, absolutely -- i said that in the last post. but *nothing* he could have done could have prevented sephiroth's creation and the eventual procession of the jenova project -- not with shinra and a group of respected, willing scientists backing it. i'm sure vincent knows that just as well as anyone.

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I refer to "death" because some people debate whether we're seeing mutated, miserable Lucrecia or unsettled spirit Lucrecia, both of which can't reenter the lifestream. Either way, she's not all the human anymore. She's either suffered a spiritual or physical death and is stuck in the cave. (I have not played DoC).

Either way, it doesn't say when Gast found out, whether it was immediately or after Hojo had cleaned up. I agree with you that his ideas and research spawned the projects that Shinra took up not long after her left.

gast stayed on with shinra several years after the birth of sephiroth. if, by that time, lucrecia wasn't showing any signs of illness, then vincent wouldn't have known, either, and it's unlikely he'd have confronted hojo. the point i keep making is that all of the events ultimately responsible for the creation of sephiroth were set into motion LONG before the confrontation between hojo and vincent, such that *nothing* vincent could possibly have done -- or even had the notion to do in the first place! -- would have somehow stopped sephiroth before the fact.

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I haven't said anything contrary to that either. If it was not Lucrecia, Vincent likely would not have put his nose in it. Sadly, the Vincent and Hojo scene where they are arguing is silent for the most part, so we don't know what Vincent exactly said that made Hojo pull the gun on him. Hence we don't know if a threat was made or if it was an insult or not. "Insensibile" perhaps wasn't the best word to use.

hell, i'm only quoting the producers. "don't shoot the messenger."

whether a threat was made or not, the indication is that vincent's emotions for lucrecia were responsible for his confrontation with hojo. whether a threat was made or not, vincent was shot by hojo. whether a threat was made or not, there is *nothing* vincent could have possibly done to pose a serious threat to the jenova project and act as a preventative measure to the "crisis" of ff7.

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Shinra wanted the results. They didn't care how they got them. That's correct. But if they KNOW how Hojo got them and then the media or someone finds out, they are accountable. Shinra likely has turned the blind eye to Hojo and his work; "give us the results, don't go into the details of HOW you did it." If they don't see it, it doesn't exist. Don't ask, don't tell. Everyone works happier if Hojo keeps his perversity to himself. If Hojo is ever exposed, Shinra can easily turn around and say "He kept it hidden from us!" If Shinra was ever disrupted, Hojo would be able to save his own hide and escape with his own work.

shinra *is* the media. shinra isn't accountable to anyone. what version of ff7 are you playing in which shinra isn't capable of showing blatant disregard for the lives of its own citizens and blaming their deaths on others? there was no need for any sort of "don't ask, don't tell" policy -- it was certainly something more like, "do whatever you want; just make us stuff that gives us even more money and power." they knew about and sanctioned the jenova project. they probably asked for the soldier project after seeing the results with sephiroth. they gave hojo the go for the clones project.

how can you *possibly* maintain that shinra 1) didn't know about hojo's research and that 2) it would have posed a serious threat to that research if vincent had notified shinra?

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However, regardless of attraction, I believe that Hojo has a strong sense of property and possession. HIS experiments. HIS child. HIS wife. HIS work. HIS domain. It is my belief that Vincent threatens at least one of the above which caused Hojo to shoot him. Hojo is power hungry and he wants to control all around him. It's not jealousy, and it's not attraction, but it's a feeling that's equally as powerful in terms of what it makes humans do. Any threat to his power to dictate how HIS work goes must be eliminated -- Vincent and Gast.

this is an excellent point. upon consideration of this point, i find it makes more sense to frame the "murders" of vincent and gast by hojo in the context of his constituent "complexes." while i still feel hojo has little enough regard for human life to kill at whime when it suits his purposes (he "killed" plenty of people during sephiroth clones and doubtless with dozens of his other experiments), his actually pulling the trigger on vincent himself stands out -- as does his manaical 2-year hunt for professor gast after his defection from shinra. so, it would seem that there was probably a psychological component to the vincent shooting and the gast-hunt dealing with control issues stemming from his apparent inferiority complex. yeah, come to think of it, vincent's demonstration of his true love for lucrecia in his constant badgering of hojo about using lucrecia as a guinea pig, coupled with hojo's inevitable realisations that vincent was a far better and more worthy man than hojo himself (and perhaps the knowledge that, had it not been for lucrecia's responsibility for the death of vincent's father, the two may have become a pair in the first place -- certainly they go back further than hojo and lucrecia do) could easily have snapped something in hojo's "mass of complexes" psyche.

being said, while it makes vincent more the tragic hero, it still doesn't attribute to him any capability of stopping the progression of the jenova project and the creation of sephiroth.

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Dear, it's a video game and a piece of art. Ease up a bit, huh? Plenty is up for interpretation. It's hardly silly, as I've attempted to back up my reasoning with in-game references as well as events that happened afterwards. It's a question of the characters' "human nature" (as human as video sprites get as they go). What, may I ask, is completely outrageous that I've introduced? Have I reached the level of "Sephiroth's daddy is really Vincent OMG!!"? I'd certainly hope not!

I admit, I do enjoy the Vincent character. However, I wouldn't dump myself so soon into the category of mindless Vinnie-Winnie worship. I've attempted to come across as fairly reasonable. I've not tried to present anything as absolute fact or enforce my beliefs on others. Possibilities, that's all.

Perhaps since you have access to DoC you have more perspective on what happened overall, but I find that overly aggressively fighting over a game or a cartoon tends to make the subject rather distasteful to both parties. That is, the game stops being fun.

you may be fishing for complements re: your not being a completely mindless vincent-fan, and you may not. either way, you've still introduced contradictory conclusions, irrelevant evidence, numerous red herrings, and your own original contributions to the story of ff7, all for the purpose of creating the argument that vincent was so influential in the so-called "before crisis" days that he could have potentially stopped sephiroth's creation, thereby completely circumventing the crisis. i find it unreasonable when, in the face of evidence from the game and elsewhere in the ff7 complete compilation, you teeter down long, drawn-out avenues of discussion that are irrelevant to the question of vincent's potency relating to prevention of the crisis. it's not that you don't know the game. it's not that you're trying to force all the availible evidence to characterise vincent as the single most important character in the ff7 universe.

but it's really a simple question: was vincent ever capable of preventing the crisis by preventing the creation of sephiroth? the answer, by *all* means, is a resounding "no."

i'm not a vincent-hater. i actually think he's kind of a cool character (though sadly underdeveloped, paling in comparison by usefulness to the game's other secret character), and i find appealing his backstory stint as a lone moral objector to the genetic engineering of human beings. but i also find distatseful the attempts by a certain set of the ff7 fanbase at aggrandising vincent into a demi-god figure. take it personally, or don't. it's really up to you.

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there is never any indication of there having been a project known as "the soldier project."  in fact, the jenova project (with the first result: sephiroth) likely is the only research contributing to shinra's heavily vested interest in soldier.  probably gast did not propose the idea behind solider: genetically engineering an army of super-fighters.  that was probably president shinra's idea.

From what I've read, the Jenova Project was strictly Sephiroth's creation and the first manipulation of Jenova in humans. Some years later, SOLDIER became the military offshoot of this "super trooper idea" ordered by Shinra, where troopers were showered with Mako in order to enhance them along with limited or no Jenova (I'll let someone else fight it out). A fair amount of sites classify them as different projects, since other than the mako, it's debated if the SOLDIERs received any other enhancements like Jenova. Additionally, mako energy wasn't popular or found to be profitable til around the time Cid lost his spaceflight, so that's at least fifteen or so years after Sephiroth was born and the original Jenova project ended. I think they are different projects, and what bridges them for Cloud and Zach is the Jenova Reunion theory.

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the original argument was about shinra supposedly not knowing (and, in the case that they find out, not condoning), according to you, the details of hojo's research.  i don't know why you keep getting further and further off-topic about gast, like it correlates to your literary buffing up of vincent somehow.

You raised the point that Gast was head of the project, had to know everything, found out Jenova was not what he thought it was, and likely saw early SOLDIERs being sick from Jenova. This drove him away from Shinra eventually. From what I understand, you believe Vincent never had anyone to tell because Gast all ready knew and may not have liked it, but nobody else would have cared.

My argument was that Gast didn't know everything because he was not there during the whole experiment. I drew that conclusion from his lack of presence in the Waterfall flashback scenes during the game. Ergo, Vincent had someone superior to Hojo to tell. I also introduced Vincent's opinion of Gast as a man of good character because it isn't likely Vincent would have that opinion anymore if Gast let Hojo get away with the shooting or even Lucrecia's severe sickness knowingly (my "aw shucks" comment). My theory is that because Vincent got shot, Gast never knew exactly what happened, later found out Jenova was not an Ancient (Ifalna), and then discovered what exactly happened at Shinra mansion in his absence. Then he left. Additionally, I used a rough timeline to theorize/state that SOLDIER wasn't created until after he was dead, so seeing the first "guinea pigs" wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back, as you implied.

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Why would they care about Hojo's sick experiments?  Why would they care about Vincent revealing to them things similar to what they have condoned in the past? 

Because even though they are "the evil corporation," they still may possess some form of human sympathy or pity. The media may not care, the people may never find out, but I have trouble believing that Gast and Reeve are the only people in the entire history of Shinra's massive workforce that had a conscience or any sort of power to stop it. We don't know all that much about who was in Shinra back then other than the scientists and the Turks. The Jenova project was top secret all those years ago. Not everybody knew about; top level people, the president, the scientists and maybe few Turks other than Vincent probably knew about it. Otherwise, it was kept heavily under wraps. There may have been an honest Turk or a half-decent administrator or something on the outside of this "inner circle" that may have been disgusted with this.

Additionally, there was a chip on the pile that may have not been before: a baby. It's one thing when you're dealing with adults, but when you bring in children, people do tend to put the brakes on and stare at the situation a bit more. That's why the "Save the Children" commercials are so successful; they're cuter than starving grownups. This was Shinra's first effort at a super soldier; there hadn't been a baby injected with Jenova before. It may be that manipulating a child like this may have been over the line for someone somewhere in Shinra.

My point is that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that there was one weak link where Vincent could have found an ally of sorts. Whether that would have even made a dent in the situation who knows; the game didn't play out that way. It could have, though the odds are against it, but it could. Tiny chance is still a chance. My point on this is that Vincent failed to make even this effort, which haunts him and may have changed something about the past if it had.

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aerith is not a pureblooded cetra.  as such, ifalna is the last true cetra.

Yes, but Hojo considers her a Cetra when he tries to mate her and Red XIII. Half-blood's good enough for him.

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also, you're reading the next scene all wrong.  ifalna was never a part of the experiments in the jenova project. to the contrary, she voluntarily assisted dr gast in his research on the cetra by imparting stories about the weapons, the promised land, &c.; it was ifalna who told gast that jenova was not an ancient. 

I didn't mean to indicate that she was involved with the Jenova project. Rather, I had it in my head that she became part of another project (not as a test subject but a resource) after she pointed out that Jenova was the antithesis of the Ancients. However, you are probably right about what happened regarding Hojo, the "walking mass of complexes."

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  hojo never headed a project on the cetra while dr gast was still at shinra, and never worked directly with them until after murdering dr gast.

I disagree with this because there is at least a two year period where Gast was gone from Shinra in Midgar. Hojo was pursuing them because he needed a sample. Why would he want a sample unless he had a project? Or rather, why couldn't he have started a project in Gast's absence?

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gast stayed on with shinra several years after the birth of sephiroth.  if, by that time, lucrecia wasn't showing any signs of illness, then vincent wouldn't have known, either,  and it's unlikely he'd have confronted hojo. 

I haven't played DoC, but Lucrecia collapsed at the Inn BEFORE Vincent went to confront Hojo. I interpreted that as being the reason why Vincent went off to yell at him. Since Vincent knew the baby's name, I assume it was also right after Sephiroth's birth. After that, the next time Lucrecia is seen timewise is at the Waterfall near Nibelheim. I never got the impression that Lucrecia went back to Midgar or anywhere else after Sephiroth was born. She went to the Waterfall never being able to hold her son, so I interpreted that Sephiroth was taken away from her right after birth and/or whisked off to the labs at Midgar. Hojo experimented on Vincent for awhile (some theorize 7 years so that the other sources that say Vincent was "asleep" for 30 or 23 years area reconciled) and then abandoned him for greener pastures (Sephiroth, Ifalna, and Aerith).

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hell, i'm only quoting the producers.  "don't shoot the messenger."

I didn't confront you in a rather aggressive manner as you did me when I first said "don't shoot the messenger." I felt somewhat under siege.

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whether a threat was made or not, the indication is that vincent's emotions for lucrecia were responsible for his confrontation with hojo.  whether a threat was made or not, vincent was shot by hojo.  whether a threat was made or not, there is *nothing* vincent could have possibly done to pose a serious threat to the jenova project and act as a preventative measure to the "crisis" of ff7.

I agree with you that the confrontation was fueled by a lot of anger and a definite lack of forethought. Vincent may consider that it was his hot-headedness prevented him from saving Lucrecia since he was shot for whatever he said or didn't say down there. Being dead prevented him from doing anything more to help her. However, he may be regretting he didn't get his ducks in a line before being taken out or at least making the arrangements to stop the project. It's a possibility.

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(and perhaps the knowledge that, had it not been for lucrecia's responsibility for the death of vincent's father, the two may have become a pair in the first place -- certainly they go back further than hojo and lucrecia do) could easily have snapped something in hojo's "mass of complexes" psyche.

AAAGGH. DoC spoilers!!! My eyes!

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you may be fishing for complements re: your not being a completely mindless vincent-fan, and you may not.

No, I'm simply asking for verification. You've treated me with such distaste that I'm wondering if I've done something wrong, like killed your dog. You've been very aggressive toward me in the thread, and I don't think a lot of it is founded or deserved. Ok, I have ideas that you consider to be wrong. FINE. Correct me politely and constructively and discuss with me in a civil manner, not as if I'm trespassing on your terrority or have done some sort of irrevocable blasphemy.

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either way, you've still introduced contradictory conclusions, irrelevant evidence, numerous red herrings, and your own original contributions to the story of ff7, all for the purpose of creating the argument that vincent was so influential in the so-called "before crisis" days that he could have potentially stopped sephiroth's creation, thereby completely circumventing the crisis. 

Can you please point each of these out to me? I have made concessions to you on several occasions where I have decided that my own reasoning was not as clear as I thought it was and found it was faulty. Additionally, if you mean the Gast subtopic, I explained my reasoning as above. Finally, what weird stuff have I contributed to the story that I haven't said as being my idea or interpretation or some other "disclaimer" of fact? I fully admit, I forgot what the media situation was like, but I had thought there was some kind of underground press...one too many "viva le resistance!" games, I guess.

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i find it unreasonable when, in the face of evidence from the game and elsewhere in the ff7 complete compilation, you teeter down long, drawn-out avenues of discussion that are irrelevant to the question of vincent's potency relating to prevention of the crisis

I don't have access to all of the compliation in English (as I am not versed in Japanese, do not own a Japanese PS2 or cell phone, and do not own copies of BC and DoC). How can I make theories to your satisfaction with only rumours and stuff I've heard on the internet in a different language? I'd rather not attempt that, since I'm sure to make more of a fool of myself. As for long and drawn out, to be fair, you've had your share of that as well.

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but i also find distatseful the attempts by a certain set of the ff7 fanbase at aggrandising vincent into a demi-god figure.  take it personally, or don't.  it's really up to you.

Well, that last line does indicate you want me to take it personally. As to the rest of the comment, I haven't gone off about how Lucrecia should have gone off with Vincent because he was hawt, how could she fall in love with Hojo, how Hojo was so devious and shot him dishonorably, how he was going to take Lucrecia way and save everyone only mean old Hojo stopped him, or any of the old stand-bys some of the Vincent fangirls go for when they want to demonize Hojo and deify Vincent. Ironically, I've been trying to prove that Vincent could have done something but failed miserably! Hardly the battle cry of the Vincent-deifier. I believe he had the potential to change the state of things. That's all.

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From what I've read, the Jenova Project was strictly Sephiroth's creation and the first manipulation of Jenova in humans. Some years later, SOLDIER became the military offshoot of this "super trooper idea" ordered by Shinra, where troopers were showered with Mako in order to enhance them along with limited or no Jenova (I'll let someone else fight it out). A fair amount of sites classify them as different projects, since other than the mako, it's debated if the SOLDIERs received any other enhancements like Jenova. Additionally, mako energy wasn't popular or found to be profitable til around the time Cid lost his spaceflight, so that's at least fifteen or so years after Sephiroth was born and the original Jenova project ended. I think they are different projects, and what bridges them for Cloud and Zach is the Jenova Reunion theory.

whoops, wrong again. sephiroth was the first soldier for a reason -- because he was the first to be treated with jenova cells, the cornerstone of the soldier treatment process. it is unclear when mako became a part of the project, but one assumes that it has something to do with the research hojo was performing at the nibelheim reactor, since that's where he had humans locked up in mako tanks, turning them to monsters. at any rate, the point is that the jenova treatment is the more noteworthy part of the soldier creation process -- after all, it is due to the exposure to jenova cells that all candidates for soldier are prerequired to be of strong mental constitution -- incidentally, the reason cloud didn't get in (and the reason he faltered when experimented on by hojo). sephiroth was so powerful due to his exposure to jenova, shinra decided to generalise this magical jenova treatment to a whole class of elite soldiers.

the jenova reunion theory has very little to do with that you are arguing; the jenova reunion theory was a theory of hojo's that those of fragile mind who were exposed to the same treatment given to soldier candidates (choosing for his people of fragile mind the survivors of the nibelheim incident, who needed to be dealt with anyway), they would falter in the presense of jenova's influence and become a "part" of jenova, being drawn toward her head. his theory, of course, was right.

at any rate, jenova is the decisive element of the soldier process -- an idea borne of gast's research and the creation of sephiroth (who was, indeed, a living testament to the power of jenova treatment).

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ou raised the point that Gast was head of the project, had to know everything, found out Jenova was not what he thought it was, and likely saw early SOLDIERs being sick from Jenova. This drove him away from Shinra eventually. From what I understand, you believe Vincent never had anyone to tell because Gast all ready knew and may not have liked it, but nobody else would have cared.

My argument was that Gast didn't know everything because he was not there during the whole experiment. I drew that conclusion from his lack of presence in the Waterfall flashback scenes during the game. Ergo, Vincent had someone superior to Hojo to tell. I also introduced Vincent's opinion of Gast as a man of good character because it isn't likely Vincent would have that opinion anymore if Gast let Hojo get away with the shooting or even Lucrecia's severe sickness knowingly (my "aw shucks" comment). My theory is that because Vincent got shot, Gast never knew exactly what happened, later found out Jenova was not an Ancient (Ifalna), and then discovered what exactly happened at Shinra mansion in his absence. Then he left. Additionally, I used a rough timeline to theorize/state that SOLDIER wasn't created until after he was dead, so seeing the first "guinea pigs" wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back, as you implied.

ok, all of this is *garbage.* all of this is directly contradictory to the information we are given by the game. jenova was GAST'S PROJECT. it was totally his idea and *he* wanted to use jenova, who *he* excavated and who *he* determined was the frozen corpse of an ancient, to create an ancient (again DR GAST'S idea). dr gast was surely *thrilled* that his two closest assistants volunteered their unborn child for prenatal exposure to the genetic material of this "ancient." do you mean to propose that as respected a researcher as dr gast didn't have any compulsion to follow-up on his work? to see through to the results of his project? you assume that because he wasn't EVERYWHERE vincent, lucrecia, and/or hojo were during the jenova project, that he didn't know what was going on with respect to the project itself? dr gast resigned from shinra *several years* after the birth of sephiroth. he resigned from shinra in guilt. what in the hell other conclusion can you take from this besides dr gast's eventually realising the side-effects of his work with this ancient alien virus? all you're *doing* is "theorising." you don't even use evidence from the game, or from canon outside sources. you just pull things from your brain to suit your argument. it's maddening.

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Because even though they are "the evil corporation," they still may possess some form of human sympathy or pity. The media may not care, the people may never find out, but I ha...r something on the outside of this "inner circle" that may have been disgusted with this.

Additionally, there was a chip on the pile that may have not been before: a baby. It's one thing when you're dealing with adults, but when you bring in children, people do tend to put the brakes on and stare at the situation a bit more. That's why the "Save the Children" commercials are so successful; they're cuter than starving grownups. This was Shinra's first effort at a super soldier; there hadn't been a baby injected with Jenova before. It may be that manipulating a child like this may have been over the line for someone somewhere in Shinra.

My point is that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that there was one weak link where Vincent could have found an ally of sorts. Whether that would have even made a dent in the situation who knows; the game didn't play out that way. It could have, though the odds are against it, but it could. Tiny chance is still a chance. My point on this is that Vincent failed to make even this effort, which haunts him and may have changed something about the past if it had.

oh wow you're wrong again what a surprise

sephiroth and the experimentation on him had nothing to do with producing a "super soldier." no, sephiroth was the product of the jenova project, which, like i've been saying in the last 35 posts i've made in this thread, was dr gast's project by which he would resurrect the ancient race. you're suggesting to me that shinra would have found the prenatal experimentation on sephiroth immoral -- but obviously they sanctioned the entire project from the get-go! how can you tell me there is anything hojo was doing that shinra would have found unreasonable, when they condone his sick human experiments at every other step of the way?

your point is *wrong.* the whole of shinra, from the prez to dr gast to hojo and lucrecia (parents of the subject), was behind the project. it was *going* to happen, one way or another. vincent was an invisible entity -- nothing more than a watchman bystander who happened to be in love with sephiroth's mother.

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I haven't played DoC, but Lucrecia....(Sephiroth, Ifalna, and Aerith).

if this is the case, then, being as dr gast stayed on with shinra several years after sephiroth's birth, it is clear that dr gast would have been fully cognizant of the effects of the jenova treatment on his former direct colleague in the experiment (former because she, by this time, had left the project due to the effect on her body). any way about it, dr gast must have known about the negative effects or been entirely oblivious to what happens in his lab. for such a respected reseacher one would be inclined to take the latter case to be unlikely.

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AAAGGH. DoC spoilers!!! My eyes!

see, why should i even bother arguing the facts about vincent and hojo with you when you don't even have all the information? it's no wonder you're inventing fantasies.

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No, I'm simply asking for verification. You've treated me with such distaste that I'm wondering if I've done something wrong, like killed your dog. You've been very aggressive toward me in the thread, and I don't think a lot of it is founded or deserved. Ok, I have ideas that you consider to be wrong. FINE. Correct me politely and constructively and discuss with me in a civil manner, not as if I'm trespassing on your terrority or have done some sort of irrevocable blasphemy.

cry me a river. i'll let you in on a secret of the world: there are opinions, and there are facts. i can have the *opinion* of vincent that he is a cool character. i cannot have the opinion of vincent that he could have stopped the creation of sephiroth. that is *not* an opinion. the *facts* of the matter show that the jenova project and its creation of sephiroth were ideas set into motion long before vincent was arbitratily assigned to the project as a bodyguard. as such, your ideas cannot be "considered" wrong or right -- it's not a matter of opinion, in this case, but a matter of fact. the only way vincent could have stopped the project would have been by sabotaging it in the earliest stages when all was still well in paradise.

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Can you please point each of these out to me? I have made concessions to you on several occasions where I have decided that my own reasoning was not as clear as I thought it was and found it was faulty. Additionally, if you mean the Gast subtopic, I explained my reasoning as above. Finally, what weird stuff have I contributed to the story that I haven't said as being my idea or interpretation or some other "disclaimer" of fact? I fully admit, I forgot what the media situation was like, but I had thought there was some kind of underground press...one too many "viva le resistance!" games, I guess.

give it a rest, you haven't "conceded" anything. all you've been doing is 1) restating information i've already posted about the history of jenova project or 2) putting up false information that contradicts directly with the canon account. if you read up higher even in this very post, you'll see several examples of where you have meandered away from the official canon to interject your own "interpretations" of the already-fleshed-out evidence.

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I don't have access to all of the compliation in English (as I am not versed in Japanese, do not own a Japanese PS2 or cell phone, and do not own copies of BC and DoC). How can I make theories to your satisfaction with only rumours and stuff I've heard on the internet in a different language? I'd rather not attempt that, since I'm sure to make more of a fool of myself. As for long and drawn out, to be fair, you've had your share of that as well.

and you don't see making a fool of yourself in ignoring the canon snippets of information and scenery i have been including in my posts? i've given you plenty of information. it would have been nice to have argued speculatively when ff7 what just one game without 7 spinoffs. unfortunately, we each spinoff, we learn more about the ff7 world and are left increasingly incapable of drawing our own conclusions as to the actual substance of events and history.

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Well, that last line does indicate you want me to take it personally. As to the rest of the comment, I haven't gone off about how Lucrecia should have gone off with Vincent because he was hawt, how could she fall in love with Hojo, how Hojo was so devious and shot him dishonorably, how he was going to take Lucrecia way and save everyone only mean old Hojo stopped him, or any of the old stand-bys some of the Vincent fangirls go for when they want to demonize Hojo and deify Vincent. Ironically, I've been trying to prove that Vincent could have done something but failed miserably! Hardly the battle cry of the Vincent-deifier. I believe he had the potential to change the state of things. That's all.

look, for one, stop whining "victim," as it's quite a bit more distasteful than ignoring facts, even, and for another, as a general rule, don't take anything i say personally. if i had taken you for an idiot, i'd never have argued with you for so long in the first place. if i agreed with everything you said, i never would have *argued* in the first place. i tend to come off as condescending, and the peculiarities that lead to that impression can be aggravated by reapeated insistance on ignoring what's been established.

(watches as dove of peace is shot out the air with a howitzer)

Ok...never mind.

Moderator Edit

Unnecessary and spammy. Even SomethingAwful bans people for "tl;dr" posts these days. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 15th June 2006 14:20

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I have to agree Vincent is by far one of the best characters in the game the added story line adds more depth to an already brilliant piece of work and without it would eventually have many people who bothered to think about it question the origin of sephiroth and how he was born i think he should have been added as a main as i feel he has a more important role in the game than others such as Cid or Red XIII and for all you cait sith bashers just remember who got the black materia and who exposed Shinras plan for the huge materia he personally is a character i quite enjoy as do many other people i know lol well thats all from me peace everyone

Slayer, I believe the problem is, that you are trying to compare Final Fantasy to the real world. It's a forgivable mistake. But you can't go by what you think you would have done in a situation, or anything else like that. To have a discussion like this, we can only go by what we KNOW, for a fact, happened in the game. Nothing else. These are some facts; forgive me, but I've not seen AC or anything that might reveal more of the story, so likely many parts are missing.

--Hojo and Lucrecia decided to experiment on their unborn child, injecting it with Jenova cells. Whether Gast knew, didn't know, or injected the poor thing himself, doesn't concern us. All that matters is that it did happen.
--Lucrecia became ill. Vincent was obviously very upset. He confronted Hojo and, while we do not know what he said to him, that part doesn't matter. If he threatened to expose Hojo as the monster he is, he obviously didn't get around to it.
--Hojo shot Vincent, but rather than leaving him to die, he experimented on him. At some point, by someone, Vincent was locked in the basement. During this time, Sephiroth grew up, fought, got very strong, and then went mad.

From that point, there's very little question about the events that take place. As you can see, Vincent didn't do a damn thing, really. He might have tried his hardest, almost succeeded, nearly kept Sephiroth from being born, whatever. The only things that affect the story are the things we know happened. Not why, or things that almost or might have happened. I keep trying to say this, but it seems to be completely ignored. This whole argument over Dr. Gast and whatnot is pointless, and rather off-topic. The original discussion was about whether or not Vincent should have been considered a major character. What other people did, why they did it, none of this has anything to do with that. We are simply looking at what VINCENT, no one else, did or caused. Had Vincent not been born....hm, Lucrecia would be without an admirer, and there would have been one less Turk. Cloud would have never found out about Lucrecia being Sephiroth's real mother, but that doesn't change anything. If you've gone through the game without Vincent before, you know that it never becomes an issue, whether or not Cloud knows Jenova isn't Sephiroth's mum. I think that's about it. It's a shame Vincent hadn't done more. Much as I hate to say it, he did fail miserably at everything he tried, just as you said. Which means, he never did anything or affected the outcome of the Jenova Project, or the lives of anyone involved with it. So, knowing all this, how can you say he should be a main character? At least Cid got you the Highwind and introduced you to Shinra's failed space exploration project; at least Tifa saved Cloud from being lost within himself forever; at least....well, you get the idea. You could argue that all the playable characters and a good many NPCs were more important to the game. But again, no one ever argues in their favor...

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