Track this topic | Email this topic | Print this topic

Quote (nyxojaele @ 15th March 2006 00:27)

Thanks for the clarification on the tables bit.  I really wasn't sure.  As I'd like to have my game as accurate as possible, I'd muchly appreciate any updated tables you'd be willing to release to the general public.

Something that just crossed my mind:  Perhaps you should ask MasterZed about the article in question.  Maybe there's some specific reason that his numbers differ from yours.

That's an interesting find of yours tho-- I've always been interested in ROM hacking, but I just haven't had the -time- to devote to it, unfortunately;;  Tho, I do enjoy reading up on the things people find, and how it all fits together.. at least, in regards to FFVI.  ^^v

Turns out it's even a little simpler -- it's just a list of 16-bit integers, and you multiply each by 8.

The only problem I'm running into now is figuring out how it calculates the exp. to next level. To know that, it would need to know the total exp. needed for the next level. And to know that, it would have to go through the entire list, adding things up (since each entry is relative to the sum of all of the entries before it). Doing this every time the status screen is displayed or when ending a battle would seem kind of silly to me. Perhaps it does this all at once when the game first starts up, and puts the result in ram. I need to do some save state snooping. Maybe even learn some snes assembly.

That's the one last thing I have to figure out though. Once I do, I'll put up a document explaining this all and also get in touch with Master Zed and the couple other people who have written documents about this to figure out what the deal is.

( p.s. you can check out my code so far, a tarball is at http://incise.org/ff6.tgz . WinZip should open it. It's all public domain so no worries about copyright/license/etc. The progress I've made on the experience stuff isn't in that tarball though. )

One last edit -- one of the most interesting things is that the 16-bit number for each level is within one or two of that level squared. Lv. 5 is 24, Lv. 10 is 99, Lv. 20 is 402, etc. It almost seems like they originally used a simple algorithm for this but then decided to stick it in a table and then vary the values by a very tiny bit. Lv. 99 is also the oddball -- there's a big jump in the exp. needed to get to it.

This post has been edited by mackstann on 15th March 2006 05:23

Okay, update-y time guys! Sorry about waiting so long, but even now there isn't a huge amount to report. Mostly just want you guys to know that the project (nor I!) isn't dead!

Not a lot updated on the functionality of the game, the time I've been spending on the game has actually been on taking a lot more serious standpoint on the graphics. I've done some concept art of my vision of Terra, and I'll be using that as my base for my new model of her. Here's a quick digicam picture of one of the pages:



Also, I'm looking -very- closely at the detail levels used on the models in Dirge of Cerberus & FFXII, and am using that as a target level of detail, for those interested. Yes, I know they're not out in North America yet, so you'll likely have to check out screenshots or something, but to really see the details, you'll need to play the games and see how amazing the models (especially the faces!) are when a cinematic zooms way in. (I'm talking in-game models, not FMV models..)

'Course, that's about all I have to show right now... Japanese class has been pretty heavy, what with a midterm just recently finished, and our teacher cramming the final chapter for this semester down our throats as fast as possible to have as much room as possible for review before finals (and the final presentation I need to prepare!)... I'll have more time once the semester is over, but at least I still have -some- time right now^^ So I'm using what I can for graphical components and such, that don't involve sitting down for hours at a time concentrating on one thing uninterrupted.

@mackstann
Interesting stuff.. I'm interested to stay updated on things, but let's not hijack this thread for that.. shall we continue in PM?

Okay guys, I've been holding out on this for quite a while now, because I wanted to put a whole bunch of this stuff together for my next post-- I've finally managed to put enough of it together to give you guys a quick preview of what I'm currently working on for the game. As you can obviously see, it's only a development shot, but it'll give you an idea of what's been going on, etc..

Take note that this is a high quality model, and isn't what's actually going to be used in the game (although I'm going to use some rendering tricks to make you think it is!), so don't start thinking that you'll need a god machine to run it. Maybe a good machine, but not a god machine.

Yessirree bob, that's a mighty impressive armpit ya got there.

Seriously though, from what little I can see of the model, it does look quite impressive. Any reason you're showing such an in close shot?

Oh and what kinda normal mapping are you going to use and is there a Maya equiv?

--------------------

Arts

Farts

Twarts

Yes yes, I thought it was important to show off that Terra, thru all this strife and struggle, will continue to have her armpits shaved. This is an important aspect of any game, afterall.

Haha, but seriously.. like I said, it's just a preview of what I've got right now. Much of the rest of the model still needed to be pieced together at the time of the shot, and I just took a shot of what I happened to be working on at the time (hense the selected verticies).

As it stands now, I've got the model mostly pieced together, but I need to go over it and finish off the materials properly. I've got some serious UV mapping to do on it once I've got the thing physically put together.

I'm not sure if I follow you on your question tho: As I understand it, there isn't any "type" of normal mapping. Normal mapping is normal mapping, as far as I have been lead to believe. But if you want some details, the normal map is being generated thru the ATI normal mapping utility. I'm not very familiar with Maya anymore, since I've not used it in years (and even then, not for anything normal map related) so I can't help you much on that. But if you look up the ATI normal mapping utility, and it's filetype *.nmf, that might help you out a bit.

EDIT: Er, nm, I was completely off-track about normal mapping. Ignore this post.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 17th April 2006 05:16

--------------------

"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

From the looks of ot you're on the right track, and I can't wait to see what Terra will finally look like as well as the other characters.

--------------------

"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Wow this has been going on since feb i think! Lookin forward too it. When [if] better be! Its done are u gonna post it on a site?

Edit

Forgot cant let square see this! Unless they ask you to be on the team

This post has been edited by Dragon King on 8th May 2006 02:19

--------------------

Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

Heh, yah somewhere around there I think. Somewhere near the beginning of the year anyways... *checks first post* Whoa- Feb 11th. Not bad, me! *pats own back* But that's just this thread-- the actual project started right at the beginning of my xmas break from work, so that was somewhere around ... *looks at calendar* Dec 23, or thereabouts. ^-^d

Odds are, no- it won't be put on a site for public availability. I may be making available small portions for outside bug-testing tho. But for legal reasons, unfortunately, I'm not sure if there's much of anything [at all] I can do about making it available to everybody. But screenshots, movies, etc... So long as I give all the appropriate credit, I'm pretty sure are allowed. (Correct me if I'm wrong..) I should call up my lawyer friend and ask him about this stuff... hehe ;p

Haha! Ask me to be on the team?! That, I could only dream about *dreams...* But I guess my learning Japanese would be a bonus in that respect ^^;

Pretty soon here (within the next week, I hope) I should have some shots together of a physically complete high quality Terra. I'll still need to do up the textures at that point tho. She currently has flat colors applied to her various parts, so she looks vaguely correct from a distance, hehe. But I'll be releasing some shots of her before texture application. This model is intended to be used for any pre-rendered cutscenes I decide to do (___IF___ I decide to do some...), and also for the normal mapping I mentioned earlier, a technique that makes low quality 3d meshes look higher quality than they really are.

Upon release of these shots, (in which she may or may not actually be "posed") I'd like some constructive criticism to help improve her-- not so much to make her realistic/etc.. but to make her accurate, for the most part. I'm pretty happy with the realism/anime influence balance that I have for her, so I think little will change in that respect.

Also, now that school's finished, I'm acquiring more and more of that free time I had lost near the end of the semester, which is great! This model's been speeding up in it's progress, and once it's complete, I'll be jumping head-first into the coding again to pick up where I left off (somewhere around trying to make the battles work, I think... Or maybe it was towns?)

Hmmm well since just spreading screen shots and that wouldnt be all that good....unless you can make a Deal with CoN
Unless Squenix looks at CoN but well not yet or else they woulda said something by now

This post has been edited by Dragon King on 8th May 2006 19:37

--------------------

Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

I'm not sure if I follow you on the screenshots not being good & making a deal with CoN part. What mean you?

Yah, either squenix doesn't visit here [often], or they don't have a problem with what I'm currently doing (do take note that I haven't made an promises about releasing this, remember..) Afterall, -technically- all I'm doing as far as the public is concerned, is making fanart. Albeit in an extremely drawn out 3-dimensional kinda way. Hahaha

Quote (nyxojaele @ 8th May 2006 16:44)

Odds are, no- it won't be put on a site for public availability. I may be making available small portions for outside bug-testing tho. But for legal reasons, unfortunately, I'm not sure if there's much of anything [at all] I can do about making it available to everybody. But screenshots, movies, etc... So long as I give all the appropriate credit, I'm pretty sure are allowed. (Correct me if I'm wrong..) I should call up my lawyer friend and ask him about this stuff... hehe ;p

That is what im talking about screen shots.
And about making a deal with CoN maybe CoN will allow you to post it on this site...somewhere lol.But if Squenix sees this though u and CoN would be in big poopy

--------------------

Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

I honestly don't see why you see such a big problem with posting screenshots of this project. See my previous post.

I dont see a problem im just saying only you and your buds are gonna play at your house?Waste of work?

But keep up the good work But yeah itd kinda be a waste but kinda not since you get play a really cool game so not a TOTAL waste i guess

--------------------

Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

Heh- to be honest with you, I've not fully decided exactly WHAT it is that I'm going to be doing with it once it's done. First of all, I haven't much of a clue what I can -legally- do [yet], and secondly, since things aren't in any state even remotely resembling that which something -can- be done with it yet, I'm not overly concerned at this moment^^

This project, more than anything, is a kind of a personal challenge, to see if I can accomplish this goal I have in mind. Not to mention, it's something I can add to my cyber-portfolio (if for nothing else, programming-wise), and it's a great creative outlet for me to show off whenever I so decide. Taking all that into account, I'd say it's not even close to a waste of effort! (That, and I just consider this dern fun!)

interesting idea. I thought about doing a similar thing with FFVII, but i was too lazy to continue. strange, isnt it, same city, similar idea...

--------------------

"Everyone's on the ride of their life, for some it's just scarier than for others..."
"It's the things you dont mean to do that have the greatest impact on your life..."

I'm wondering it's been awile since we had a update so,if u dont mind can we have a update? lol

--------------------

Kel'Thuzad: She is persistent. Reminds me of you, death knight.

Arthas:Shut up you damned ghost.

-Warcraft III Kel'thuzad comparing Arthas and Sylvanas Windrunner.

I don't know if this is still going or whatever, but a word to the wise: It's best not to be loud about this project. Square-Enix is pretty notorious when it comes to terminating fan projects, meaning that if they catch wind of this, they'll send a "Cease and Desist" letter pretty quickly. But it's interesting what you're trying to come up with. I wish you luck.

--------------------

Nine-hundred ninety-nine billion nine-hundered ninety-nine million nine-hundred ninety-nine thousand nine-hundred ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall...

Yah, it's been a while alright- and sorry about the delay.. (I obviously didn't hit my deadline of a week to finish off the model physically...) Because of various stuff happening in my life, <insert perfectly valid excuse here>, and the inexcusable <insert bullcrap excuse here>, things were slowed a little bit. But on the plus side, I've just finished (at least, acceptably enough to do up some shots!) the physical makeup of the model. I'm just gonna throw some bones into it so I can pose her temporarilly (but hopefully better than that last crappy model you guys saw!), and throw some screenshots at the boards. Hoping for today^^

@bond4154
Thank you for the warning, but as I've said before, I honestly don't see there being any legal issue with this so long as I'm not distributing, and as I've constantly said before, I've made _NO_ concrete plans in that direction yet. So really, this is just fanart, as far as everybody not living with me is concerned... ^-^v (But thanks for the thoughtfulness!)

Quick update: Rigging up the bones in the model wasn't an issue at all, 1/2hr and it was done, but weighing the verticies to the bones is another matter altogether. I can see this is going to take a -LONG- time to do properly, to avoid kinks and whatnot, so what I'm going to do in an effort to get these screenshots out earlier, is do some very temporary weighing (the kind that will only work with the poses I'll have in the screenshots, and very little else..).. That should get the shots out much sooner.

You were using Milkshape or something like that right? Does it have any deform options that will allow better movement for the pivot points, or will you use blend shapes?

Oh and are you rigging the high poly or low poly models? If that one armpit screenshot is any indication, wieghting the high poly manually is suicide.

Good luck though.

This post has been edited by Narratorway on 23rd May 2006 04:20

--------------------

Arts

Farts

Twarts

I -was- using Milkshape, yes. But now I'm not even touching it. Now I'm using blender. There's some options for envelopes, which I can modify further with weight painting. And yes, it's the hipoly version I'm doing. I'll be making the lopoly one from this later.

I'm rather curious how you plan to complete this project, or even a demo, when creating a single model is taking you literally months. Hopefully you're creating a template along with this one, or this is going to turn into vaporware.

IMO you shouldn't bother with the high-poly version unless you have ulterior motives for it, as only the most insane of cards will be able to run a game with multiple models like that in even a room-sized map. You should focus on the low-poly model if you ever intend to release a demo anytime soon, as that's most likely what you'll be using.

For that matter, you should focus on working on the engine first and ironing out the details afterwards - set up an uber-low-poly model (~an hour or two at best) and make it work with that. Otherwise if something goes wrong, you're going to have to do a lot of work to tweak the model into working like you want it.

Has the engine progressed at all, or has your work been solely on the model? If it has, forget what I said, but if your focus has been on a single model during all this time you should consider making fan-CG of the game instead of a remake... :/

--------------------

"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

First, literal response.

This project is going to be done when I'm done, demo or not. To put some insight into this "literally months" that this single model has taken, allow me to not only point you back at my previous posts, but to repeat myself with small extra bits of information here: The previous months have seen little to no improvement on the coding side because I've been finishing up a semester at college-- finals and whatnot are rather aggressive on a schedule. What little time I -did- have (and it was little, alright!) was spent on something that didn't require copious amounts of uninterrupted time, modelling. It's better than just letting the project sit until school was out. Now that school's out, I'm finishing what I started, and will be back on programming soon thereafter.

Actually, the majority if my modelling time was spent on creating a template (as I also have to eventually create any other female characters..), and only the most recent time has been spent on "Terra-izing" it.

I'm not sure what you do or don't know about normal mapping, so I'm going to point out the major points regardless, to better describe my reasoning here.. Normal mapping is a method of making a low poly model look like a high poly model. This effect is achieved by means of creating both a low poly model AND a high poly model. A "skin" (effectively) is applied to the low poly model that has information on it (for lighting, reflections, etc..) that has been read from the high poly model before, and "baked" onto it. So what happens is I create a high poly model, rip the skin off of it, and put it on the low poly model. (Without getting too technical, that's it, basically ;p)

That in mind, the high poly model is not only necessary to achieve the effect, but also necessary for a semi-ulterior motive that I had mentioned in a previous post as well(did you miss that?): Pre-rendered Cutscenes. When/if I implement them, they will be using the high poly models I've created, not the normal mapped low poly versions.

In short: You WON'T need an insane card to be able to run the game. The high poly models won't directly be in the game, but their effects will be (normal mapping & possibly cutscenes).

On releasing a demo: 2 things- I never said anything about releasing anything. Just hoping to have it at a certain point. Also, I've kinda given up on "anytime soon", and now I'm just shooting for "when it's done". I'm pretty confident that I've learned that lesson sooner than most video game companies ^^

I'm starting to wonder at this point if you're even reading my posts at all.. I've already stated that I'm using the Ogre engine. (admittedly, you just said "engine", and not "graphics engine", but a graphics engine is the only engine that'd have a direct effect on how a model is put together. All other engines that try and comminucate with the model do so thru Ogre. If Ogre's happy with it, so is the rest of the engines.) The Ogre engine is not being developed by me, but that matters little anyways, since all the effects I want to achieve are already fully supported by Ogre. That said, the engine is effectively complete, graphically, so it's only natural to start working on art to stress-test it, as well as be virtually final product ready.

Also take note that I've already got an uber-low poly model in my game. Remember my previous screenshots? Yah, those were tests to make sure I could load/animate/texture/etc... a model in my game. Done, and done!

My most recent work has been solely on the model. Remember the school thing? Yah, it's over now. Model'll be done soon, and programming shall resume full-force once again.

Second, personal response.
I can't help but get negative vibes from your posts...
<snip> This is going to be a PM instead, nobody else needs to see this</snip>

<edit>Weighting the verticies isn't as bad as I thought, just gonna take a bit to do. Couple days maybe. We'll see how lazy I am this week ^^ (At least, for the minimal "screenshot pose" weightings..)</edit>

This post has been edited by nyxojaele on 24th May 2006 02:25

I've already replied to your PM, but I didn't see your post beforehand, so...

I fully know what a normal map is (but misinterpreted your intentions with the model, my bad 'bout that); what I don't understand is why you'd want to invest effort in those when you could spend that time getting actual bare-bones progress done and then worry about unecessary fluff. "When it's done" could be a lot sooner, and you could concentrate on releasing updated models at your own pace. You did announce your project publicly, it'd be rather pointless to never make anything out of it... Just my two cents.

I recall you mentionning you were using the Ogre engine, but a game engine still has to be built up in order to have a playable game even if you already have a graphic engine. That model isn't going to walk around on its own, or interact with other models and enemies without some extra code. Loading and displaying a model is just the first step, especially considering you already had that part working.

Just my opinion. This could be a leisurely activity that gets finished in a dozen years, or it could be an actual project that people can toy around with (or with a demo of it, actually) within a handfull of months. I'd guess you're shooting for the latter if you took the time and effort to make a public announcement of it on the interweb, so why not work in ways that can maximize your success with this project?

Best of luck!

--------------------

"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Well, because of the whole situation with my school (I'd explained this before, I believe- but maybe not, so I will now) being so heavy at the time, I wanted to continue at least SOME form of development on the project, but I couldn't dedicate more than 1/2hr at a time to it, which as I'm sure you can appreciate, isn't enough time to get into the programming groove, especially if you haven't done it for a day or 2. So I decided to partake in something that I _COULD_ do for 1/2hr at a time, until school was over. As it turned out, that something was making a model. Easy to sit down with it for1/2hr, or even 10 minutes, and work on it, then leave it for later. So, since the model was nearing completion by the time school was out, I decided to finish it off, instead of leaving it mostly finished (I hate doing that><). And that's where I am now.

Normally, I'd agree with you on the unnecessary fluff tho, but the situation allowed me to make it more like ... semi-necessary squish. Or something.

I only really announced the project publicly because I'm interested in feedback, constructive criticism, etc, from everybody out there, most notably, FFVI fans. As I've said many times before, I haven't made any concrete plans to make this available to anybody else (except, obviously, screenshots, and maybe some videos later..), especially since I don't know the legal situation with anything more involved than visual media, yet.

Yes, the game engine is being built-- that's the main part of what I'm programming for it now, but it doesn't matter what I decide to make or change in my game engine, it won't affect how the model needs to be made, so it's safe to make the model how I know to make it.

The model does walk around, with the code I've got, btw^^ I've gotten that far at least hehe. And I have a camera that can switch between modes (which affects the control scheme/limitations on camera positions..)

Heh- your 2 descriptions of what this could be are not quite on what I want it to be. I want it to be something like ... a leisurely actual project. I'm not gonna tie myself down to meet deadlines if I just honestly don't feel like working on it. Luckily, I almost always feel like working on it, at least for some time, so that's a bit of a moot point, hehe ;p

Quote (nyxojaele @ 24th May 2006 00:00)

Heh- your 2 descriptions of what this could be are not quite on what I want it to be.  I want it to be something like ...  a leisurely actual project.  I'm not gonna tie myself down to meet deadlines if I just honestly don't feel like working on it.  Luckily, I almost always feel like working on it, at least for some time, so that's a bit of a moot point, hehe ;p

In that case I misinterpreted your intentions; I was under the assumption that this was a somewhat more "serious" project you intended to release publicly (edit: eh... not "web-wide" public, of course, given the legal implications.) Leisure projects do sometimes turn out more than they started out as, but seeing as your intentions for the time being are simply to code this for fun (and for our feedback and interest), I can see why you're taking a less "aggressive" approach towards your developement. So, basically, it's all cool.

Mind you, even serious projects don't have to be littered with tight, painful deadlines. But they help stay motivated, and aren't all that bad when you're willing to discipline yourself into meeting them. I can't count the number of times I've told myself something to the ends of, "Well, I'd better work on ES instead of playing game 'x', I promised a release next week." I'd hate to see just how far the project would've (or rather, wouldn't have) progressed if it weren't for that.

Keep at it; slow progress is far better than no progress at all. Once you get to a point where there's something at least remotely playable, I'm quite sure it'll impress quite a few people.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 24th May 2006 05:35

--------------------

"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

This sounds like it will be bretty impressive, may I ask a question?

Will you be adding anything to it?

For example another Esper? Like ones it didn't include or some of the newer ones? (Man, I missed Leviathan, he is one bad-ass Esper...)

My intention is to leave everything as it was originally, but with optional (but default ON) patches to the major bugs. I've heard rumors and hearsay that it's being rereleased on the GBA, and that there's supposed to be a new dungeon, or some such. If I even get -remotely- close to that far in the game, I'll consider adding that dungeon as well. But like I said, to be more realistic, I'm first shooting for maybe 1hr of gameplay for the time being.

I think the game -may- appear a lot more different to a lot of the followers of the original, just because I'm using the Japanese version as my base-- so some of the graphics I'm using as inspiration are less censored, and the dialog will likely be slightly different than the Amerikan version.

Actually, there will be a release of the GBA port sometime this year or something. (So it's not really a rumor. Well, just so ya know. )

I'm not sure if you said this already, but you also have script patches too? (For different translations, etc.) that you'd implement as well.

--------------------

OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok