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I reckon they're just trying to please the crowd Kingdom Hearts is geared for- teenaged girls. Most girls this age like Disney, and if they're cool enough to like video games, they'll probably like anime. If they like anime, they're more prone to love girly-boys, right?

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Quote (RelmArrowney @ 27th April 2006 23:44)

I reckon they're just trying to please the crowd Kingdom Hearts is geared for- teenaged girls. Most girls this age like Disney, and if they're cool enough to like video games, they'll probably like anime. If they like anime, they're more prone to love girly-boys, right?

Eh?

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Quote (Crazyswordsman @ 27th April 2006 20:28)

At least Amano's art doesn't have spikey hair.  There's only one character I can think of that spikey hair did not ruin, and that's Crono (who was drawn by Akiro Toshiba or whoever).  Honestly, spikey hair is an instant no-no for me. especially when Nomura does it, and he does it on most, if not ALL, his characters.  Amano, meanwhile, does much nicer, smoother hair.

I admit that..

But it's not just Tetsuya drawing spikey hair, now is it? Anime characters have spikey hair, and so many of the people here enjoy anime style drawings. I usually prefer smoother hair instead of spikey. Squall turned out pretty good for the hair, and Nomura's human anatomy of FFVIII is alot better than Amano's drawings. Like I said before, Amano draws guys with black lips, and at times give them dull colored clothing. It's even hard to tell from the messy sketch. That's right. Many of his "popular" art is in bad quality that it is hard to examine most of the details, faces, etc.

Also, don't forget that Nomura designed the graphics for FF4(If I recall), FF5 (Monster graphics if I can recall), and was the GRAPHICS DIRECTOR of FF6. Amano never designed the monsters in the game. Why? Because Nomura is alot better than him at the human anatomy. Yoshitaka Amano likes to give weird clothing to his characters and often girly faces to men. Yeah I admit Nomura is going downhill these days. Back then he designed more and they turned out far better than Amano's art dump.

If you think Nomura sucks more than Amano at drawing, go check out Nomura's work for FF5 and especially FF6. His monster designs are so life-like and well-proportioned unlike Amano's crappy "illustrations".

Even sprites of the final bosses of FF5 and FF6 are more fearsome-looking and fashionable than Amano's drawings. And come on, drawing is alot easier than spriting. The only reason why Amano was a hit was because of his work in FF1 was unexpectively a success. I admit that, but Amano went straight down-hill since FF4 and screwed up FF7's designs.

If people still won't admit the merit of Nomura's unmessy drawings, then I give up.

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 28th April 2006 02:03)

If people still won't admit the merit of Nomura's unmessy drawings, then I give up.

Nomura’s work is OK and unmessy, but that’s all it has going for it. I prefer Amano over Nomura because Amano’s designs are actually good, unique, and can actually hold a person’s interest, even if they think it’s bad. Nomura’s works are very plain and resemble a lot of other anime so there isn’t a lot of originality there. If I read this post before playing FFOrigins, I would’ve wholeheartedly agreed with you. After playing FFO and seeing his artwork, I instantly became hooked on his art. At a first glance, Amano’s works look like crap. If you look at it more and more, you actually notice that his work looks pretty good. Nomura is the opposite. His artwork is inviting at first, but loses any meaning after you see it in countless anime and games.

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I wasn't too thrilled withte featured artwork on FFO. Some of it was alright on FF Anthology, but I can't say that I enjoy the look of effeminite male characters. Does nothing for me at all.

From what I've seen of KH though, I really can't complain. The artwork looks appropriately cartoonish, I think, but I'm still not going to play it. Vivi is a villain in part two? HERESY!

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Nomura’s work is OK and unmessy, but that’s all it has going for it. I prefer Amano over Nomura because Amano’s designs are actually good, unique, and can actually hold a person’s interest, even if they think it’s bad. Nomura’s works are very plain and resemble a lot of other anime so there isn’t a lot of originality there. If I read this post before playing FFOrigins, I would’ve wholeheartedly agreed with you. After playing FFO and seeing his artwork, I instantly became hooked on his art. At a first glance, Amano’s works look like crap. If you look at it more and more, you actually notice that his work looks pretty good. Nomura is the opposite. His artwork is inviting at first, but loses any meaning after you see it in countless anime and games.

Wow somebody lese completely described my opinion.

and a little known fact amano actually drew cloud before nomura
ff7_amanoartwork
I personally like amano better, It really has a feeling of 'fantasy' behind, while Nomura as stated above is bland anime, which you can never really say is approprietley proportioned, look at the faces of all anime characters, you could never see them as real people. humans don't have faces like anime characters.

Edit

however if you look in nomura's sketches on the side, you'll see some quality sketches of shinra characters, that is an aspect of nomura I like, but it still contains some misproportioned features

Edit

I have been misinformed, I searched on the internet and found that there are no facts behind amano origonally drawing cloud, and Nomura was FFVII's main character designer, so Nomura propably origonally designed cloud not Amano, although I still like amano's drawings better

This post has been edited by Cloud_Strife510 on 29th April 2006 18:11

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But it's not just Tetsuya drawing spikey hair, now is it? Anime characters have spikey hair, and so many of the people here enjoy anime style drawings. I usually prefer smoother hair instead of spikey. Squall turned out pretty good for the hair, and Nomura's human anatomy of FFVIII is alot better than Amano's drawings.

No. Just no.

First of all, I'm no fan of Anime style art. I prefer the old-fashioned style Amano does. I think I already brought that up. And I never liked FFVIII's character designs. They were very plain. And Squall was the second-worst main character, lookwise and personality wise, after Tidus in my opinion.

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Like I said before, Amano draws guys with black lips, and at times give them dull colored clothing. It's even hard to tell from the messy sketch. That's right. Many of his "popular" art is in bad quality that it is hard to examine most of the details, faces, etc.

And that's what makes the quality of the art so damn good. The correct word isn't messy, its Intricate. Amano's art just pops right out of the paper, and his designs are a lot more complex and abstract. (Just look at his Vivi and Quina designs), and actually have facial features that make characters, for lack of a better word, girly. He actually cares to put wrinkles and 5 o'clock shadow on his men, Nomura doesn't. Messy though his drawings may be, that's why I like them. I appreciate abstraction.

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Yoshitaka Amano likes to give weird clothing to his characters and often girly faces to men. Yeah I admit Nomura is going downhill these days. Back then he designed more and they turned out far better than Amano's art dump.

And what about Tidus? Is he not girly? I'll admit Edgar and Locke look a little feminine without some of their wrinkles, but Nomura is much girlier than Amano. He puts almost NO facial features in his art, with the exception of cartoony battle scars on Seifer and Squall that can't compare to the Amano scars on characters such as Setzer.

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If you think Nomura sucks more than Amano at drawing, go check out Nomura's work for FF5 and especially FF6. His monster designs are so life-like and well-proportioned unlike Amano's crappy "illustrations".

I saw those. They weren't anything you just said.

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Even sprites of the final bosses of FF5 and FF6 are more fearsome-looking and fashionable than Amano's drawings. And come on, drawing is alot easier than spriting. The only reason why Amano was a hit was because of his work in FF1 was unexpectively a success. I admit that, but Amano went straight down-hill since FF4 and screwed up FF7's designs.

Have you seen Amano's drawings for the FFV summons? Number 024? I guess not.

We're all entitled to our opinions. You like Nomura, I like Amano.

Oh, and Amano's Cloud > Nomura's Cloud. Nomura took away the scars and spiked his hair. (Amano's Cloud had minimal spikey hair. Also, Nomura gave Cloud evil eyes, and made him look like he's about to go insane. Amano's Cloud comes out as cool, calm and collected. -CSM

This post has been edited by Crazyswordsman on 29th April 2006 03:24

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Okay, Nomura is the character designer for FFVII, Amano just did conceptual artwork for it. (He does that for all the main-numbered games, character designer or not.) Amano did not design Cloud, he merely did conceptual artwork of him. (To clear this up.)

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I've heard somewhere, I forget where, that Amano was supposed to design FFVII, but something happened. -CSM

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Well, it's very unlikely.

So...does anyone have anything to discuss on KHII Setzer anymore? The thread kinda disentegrated on the last page.

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Quote (Zeromus_X @ 28th April 2006 23:51)

Well, it's very unlikely.

So...does anyone have anything to discuss on KHII Setzer anymore? The thread kinda disentegrated on the last page.

Agreed. But in theory it could circle back if someone presented the "Nomura created Setzer" documentation. I hold out hope.

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I think he created Shadow, too, actually. Theres still no proof of this, actually. -CSM

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Quote (Rangers51 @ 29th April 2006 07:25)

Quote (Zeromus_X @ 28th April 2006 23:51)

Well, it's very unlikely.

So...does anyone have anything to discuss on KHII Setzer anymore? The thread kinda disentegrated on the last page.

Agreed. But in theory it could circle back if someone presented the "Nomura created Setzer" documentation. I hold out hope.

ok, well, i don't have any "official documentation;" i searched around for it on jp google and i was unable to determine where exactly the information came from originally, but there are several japanese websites that list nomura as having been both setzer and shadow's original character designer in ff6 (which makes me wonder why nomura even "considers [it] amano's design") -- and, as you will see, my snooping around gave me even more crazy information about nomura that i didn't know (and that rabid amano fans are going to hate). at any rate, while i was unable to determine from where the interview/press release statement originated, i present to you several of the many jp websites which all but confirm the information posted on english wikipedia (surprisingly, i couldn't find anything much else in english that wasn't just referencing/plagiarising wikipedia).

a first one says for nomura, under a column marked 「備考・その他役割等」:

「説明書のイラスト等
キャラクター設定
（シャドゥ、セッツァー）」

the column reading reads "notes; additional duties." the japanese text reads: "instruction booklet illustration/ character creation/ (shadow, setzer)." so we can see that in addition to his duty as "graphic director," he also did various instruction book illustrations (we'll come back to this point for sure), and was charged with the creation of shadow and setzer. i have the link here.

a second website, in a listing of the staff members for ffx, has this small tidbit to offer among a huge list titled 「関連作品」 (a list of projects with which nomura was connected): 「FFVI（グラフィックディレクション、セッツァーなどキャラクターデザイン）」

"ffvi (graphic direction, setzer &c. character design." it can be found here.

a third website -- a rather huge network of information on anything dq and ff you could want -- kind of like a japanese con on steroids, lists this on their tetuya nomura page: 「FF6はシャドウ、セッツァーなど数人のキャラクター設定もしていた。」

in ff6, he (also) did the character creation for shadow, setzer, and several other less important characters. interestingly, the "also" traces to the first clause of the compound sentence i pulled this from. the first clause is 「FF5はギルガメッシュなどのモンスターデザインなどを、」 and it means "in ffv, he did the monster design for gilgamesh &c." -- undoubtedly one of the best if not the best-designed character in that game (seeing a pattern here?). see for yourself at FFドラクエ板辞典 ("the ff & dragon quest dictionary").

one last site i'll offer is the "ff7 ac reunion" web magazine. they purport to have compiled a list of various articles and accounts relating to nomura's large body of work. for ffvi:

「・[1994]　ファイナルファンタジーVI

・モンスターグラフィック、キャラクターデザイン

『V』までの2頭身キャラから『VI』では3頭身になりまして。天野さんの絵とすり合わせながら3頭身の絵を描き起こしました。
※シャドウやセッツァーの設定も担当したそうだ。」

"・[1994] final fantasy vi

・monster design, character design

from v, where he drew the official character sketches for two characters, he moved on to drawing three official sketches in vi. [HERE'S THE CLINCHER!] keeping in style with amano's drawings, he was responsible drawing the official sketches for the three characters (!!!).
※apparently he was also in charge of the creation of setzer and shadow ("& others" is implied by use of the non-exclusive "ya" conjuction)."

wow! i didn't even know that! so, you're right -- amano *didn't* redraw the characters, because it was nomura all along drawing in amano's style! (the site, unfortuantely, only mentions that he was responsible for the illustrations of setzer and shadow, not the third work...probably a monster). see for yourself.

now first, i dunno what they're talking about when they say "2 illustrations" for ffv. the very same site says rite above in the ffv section that it was nomura who drew the official illustrations for gilgamesh, shinryu, and "last boss," which of course is exdeath...and that's three by my count. but at any rate, the revelation that it was nomura who actually did the official sketches *as well* as the concept and creation is really not altogether surprising and makes perfect sense in keeping with the first site's divulgence that nomura did some work on the instruction booklet illustrations (re-reading the site, btw, it turns out that only nomura and amano are listed for ff6 illustration work).

you're welcome to search the pages by yourselves to see whether what i'm saying has any merit. nomura's name is 野村, setzer is　セッツァー, and shadow is　シャドウ -- you can use the find function to find the text on the page if you can't read it.　so, that's kind of a big hit to amano that the best designs coming out off ff5 AND ff6 were done by nomura. but let's take a look at the actual illustrations nomura did; con has them right here for our convenience:





note that it is also likely that nomura is responsible for this shinryuu and probably a number (if not all) of the monster artwork in con's ffv official art database. you can *easily* see nomura's far-reaching talent by contrasting the two styles; most of the monster art uses sharp lines with liberal shading, while the three official illustrations nomura did for the instruction booklet do really look just like amano drawings. i guess i have to take back that i've never seen another artist successfully emulate his style. who would have known?

now, let's see if we can figure out which drawings nomura did for ff6. there are a total of three official illustrations for each of shadow and setzer, and one of each is clearly a cutesy, extraneous amano sketch.




here you see the two main shadow illustrations. unfortunately, con doesn't have the third sketch, or, for that matter, any of setzer's official artwork, so i'll link the rest from rpgamer:

shadow
shadow sketch
setzer 1
setzer 2
setzer sketch

again, note that many of the monster illustrations and sketches (and maybe even some of the storyboards) in con's ff6 official art section are probably nomura's. if i had to guess, i would assume that nomura's illustrations are the first shadow and the second setzer. the websites i've stumbled across in my research have made it clear that nomura was reponsible for "full-body character illustration." besides, you can see clear similarities between the eye and nose in the first setzer illustration and the obvious amano sketch. furthermore, i'm almost certain that the full-body pictures, rather than the cutouts, were used in the instruction booklet (i can and will check sometime over next week). if my hypothesis is correct, then we're in business in shadow's case: the amano "redesign" is the illustration used for shadow's menu portrait, meaning that indeed amano did redesign him for the game. but setzer's menu picture came from nomura's full-body illustration! why, again, does nomura consider setzer an amano character? japanese culture of obligation weirds me out.

there is at least one other drawing present in the instruction booklet that was done in amano-style by nomura. i'm going with either owzer, or this kefka (see edit 2):




it's quite possible he's responsible for both. note the very undefined, almost vapourous hands on the kefka, and how they compare with those on the full-body shadow illustration. it's evocative of amano's style, but if you'll look at the rest of the amano art for ff6, you'll see that the hands and fingers are always rigid and defined -- it almost seems like an imposter was just trying to fake it....

for all we know, nomura could actually be responsible for both shadows and setzers (obviously not the amano sketches), making him responsible basically all of the official artwork we have of those two characters, and surely the most meorable. yes, i think we can lay it to rest at this point: nomura seems to be consistenly more responsible for the best character/monster design work that has come out of square. his designs are far more realistic, i maintain that his use of colour is much more aesthetic and creative, and he's certainly produced more product for square. he's done characters designs for so many games and series...he was even the field designer for chrono trigger (which has one of the best-looking world maps on snes for sure).

it's pretty funny how people here are actually using setzer and "amano's cloud" to talk about how EVIL 3D NOMURA messed up the beloved amano's character designs.

edit: whoops out-of-control bold

edit 2: at this point, i have determined that, after all, the kefka design i listed *was* the third full-body illustration that nomura was responsible for. now, it seems he wasn't in charge of kefka's concept creation like he was with shadow and setzer, but only of refurbishing amano's (presumably unsatisfactory) design and creating the official instruction booklet illustration(s). here is what is presumably a pre-nomura amano concept illustration of kefka:



isn't nomura's design *much* better and more imaginative? i still think nomura is responsible for that owzer, too (yellow/orange on black screams nomura, and plus the hands have no fingers again), as well as a host of the "amano-esque" monster illustrations that are part of the ff6 artwork canon. i suppose the various monster illustrations were the "etc illustrations" consistantly referred to as part of nomura's ff6 contribution.

This post has been edited by gozaru~ on 29th April 2006 23:25

Yeah, Nomura was the designer for monsters in FFV/VI, etc. And Amano is the character designer. So...I still don't completely believe you, sorry. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't nearly good enough to read all of that myself...

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Quote (Zeromus_X @ 29th April 2006 13:55)

Yeah, Nomura was the designer for monsters in FFV/VI, etc. And Amano is the character designer. So...I still don't completely believe you, sorry. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't nearly good enough to read all of that myself...

you know, you can apologise to me all you want, but in the end, the only person you're hurting is yourself. you ask for proof, and when it's given, you choose to reject it? you're certainly very welcome to do so, but it's you who remains uninformed, not me. i even went so far as to give the japanese characters for "nomura," "setzer" and "shadow," so you could put them in ctrl+f and see how on all the pages i linked the names of the two nomura ff6 characters are under columns/rows/lists headed with his name.

Proof? Is this site related to Square at all? I'm perfectly aware that Nomura has designed monsters, etc. for FFV, VI, and the Shinryuu you showed is one of his sketches. (As were parts of the production gallery for FF Anthology.) But he most certainly didn't create those Amano sketches. If he did design those characters, then wouldn't he be the character designer instead of Amano?

Edit: Basically, I don't believe he created those Amano drawings. I can believe that he designed a few characters, however.

This post has been edited by Zeromus_X on 30th April 2006 01:35

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If anyone actually bothers to read the FFVI opening credits, Nomura is given the title "Graphics designer" and Amano "Image desginer." This proves to me that Amano did most of the desgining. I give Nomura credit for making the landscape look like a Cezanne (too bad he didn't do that in his later games...), but that's about it. Amano did everythinig else. Until I see real proof, that's all I have. -CSM

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uhm, well, why don't you go digging back through ultimanias and famitsus trying to find out where the information came from in the first place? what more proof do you want? nomura's wikipedia.jp entry says for ffvi his duties were "graphic direction, a section of character design, and manual illustration." other websites list amano and nomura as the sole illustrators; many websites corroborate that he was in charge of creating setzer and shadow. nomura was working under amano, his "senpai," and i imagine he was given the opportunity to actually try his hand at character creation. the people at square were probably expecting good things of him based on his designs for ffv and the 3 official illustrations he contributed to that manual -- i guess since his characters were so great in 6, they gave him the lead gig for 7, which they put *lots* of production power into. think about it -- you think they'd give that job to just anyone?

look, it's said specifically on the jp web that nomura contributed 3 official character illustrations in the style of amano to both the ff5 (well, i guess thinking about it, when they say "2," they don't count his shinryu as a "character illustration") and ff6 instruction booklets: gilgamesh and exdeath for ff5 and shadow, setzer, and kefka for ff6. take kefka's in-game art...his sprites are in a green-coloured coat like the amano design, but the official illustration and his battle design, both done by nomura, are in a *red* coat. amano did the *vast* majority of character design and monster design in ff6 (at least 90-95%). now that i've come to be able to see the differences between nomura's amano-like sketches and amano originals, i bet owzer is definitely amano's. it has a more sketchy and less fluid look than the nomura drawings, it's a little more detailed, and then it has like these extra things that have nothing to do with the design around the edges. but amano didnt do all of the character and monster design -- and the only other person that worked on it was nomura.

i really can't believe you're just straight up refusing to acknowledge the facts.

No, I perfectly believe that. I just don't believe he made those pictures. With the evidence you've provided, it's now pretty obvious that he's designed some characters for FFVI.

I just don't believe that he actually drew all those artworks by Amano.

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what do you not understand about "was responsible for official instruction booklet illustrations?"

like i said, it doesn't do any slight to me that you won't see the facts for what they are. but it's not fair that you don't give nomura the credit he deserves. if you study the drawings, you'll be able to see how the shadow, kefka, and gilgamesh drawings (setzer is too low-res to say...) are different subtly from the other amano drawings in similar ways. i don't think he did that exdeath, either; they must have meant that the two official illustrations he did were in fact gilgamesh and shinryu, and the "last boss" he designed was actually the in-battle neo-exdeath.

kefka, shadow, gilgamesh, and setzer (at least one of them), who have always been among the old-school elitists' favourite character designs -- and for good reason i should say; they've always been among mine, too -- were designed and illustrated by nomura, whom, incidentally, the old-school elitist community has long derided as "unimaginative." is it too much to ask that he gets the proper respect he deserves?

It's not that I don't like Nomura's design, I just don't believe that he made those drawings, especially when I've seen them in Amano galleries. I know he helped design those characters, it's just that that I don't believe, and I don't have any reason to.

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Nomura made designs of various characters from FFVI. In fact, he made designs of ALL of them. It is these designs that appear in the Anthology instruction manual. However, the SNES manual, AND the Nintendo Players Guide, (aka the ones I own) use the Amano sketches, which are universally accepted as the official art. -CSM

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Just let it go, please. Is there really a point in arguing it further?

Note: That's rhetorical. Please don't bother arguing it further.

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I'm not arguing, I'm agreeing with him. (Or I'm just confused. )

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Back on topic, are there any links to Setzer's voice on the internet? I'd like to hear how he sounds. -CSM

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Well, you could just play through the game until you get to him. But anyway, I don't know of any links, although he does start the battle with his 'My life is a chip in your pile', and 'time to ante up', which is cheesy and awesome at the same time. As for his voice outside of battle, I didn't think it was too bad. Not horrible, but not great. He has kinda a deeper voice then I expected, but meh.

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I kind of expect him to sound like a middle-aged New Yorker, heh. Thats probably not what he sounds like, though. Deep voices are still, well, at least they're not bad, like most of the original KH voices.

Setzer says his "Life is a chip in your pile" line, huh? Trying to appease us, methinks? Nice try, Square. Let Woolsey think of something creative for him to say. -CSM

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Quote (Crazyswordsman @ 3rd May 2006 22:50)

Deep voices are still, well, at least they're not bad, like most of the original KH voices.

Setzer says his "Life is a chip in your pile" line, huh? Trying to appease us, methinks? Nice try, Square. Let Woolsey think of something creative for him to say. -CSM

what? he says one of his cooler, more definitive lines from ff6 to open a battle, and you're bitching about it? will you blindly criticise anything kingdom hearts-related? the game's voice acting is a few steps better than that of most games tends to be; it certainly beats out ffx, dmc series, most us fg localisations, &c...you can say all you want about it, but the fact remains that kh series is a nice package well-recieved by the critics and fans alike (just like nomura's other big project, ff7...).

Quote (gozaru~ @ 4th May 2006 06:23)

Quote (Crazyswordsman @ 3rd May 2006 22:50)

Deep voices are still, well, at least they're not bad, like most of the original KH voices.

Setzer says his "Life is a chip in your pile" line, huh?  Trying to appease us, methinks?  Nice try, Square.  Let Woolsey think of something creative for him to say. -CSM

what? he says one of his cooler, more definitive lines from ff6 to open a battle, and you're bitching about it? will you blindly criticise anything kingdom hearts-related? the game's voice acting is a few steps better than that of most games tends to be; it certainly beats out ffx, dmc series, most us fg localisations, &c...you can say all you want about it, but the fact remains that kh series is a nice package well-recieved by the critics and fans alike (just like nomura's other big project, ff7...).

"Well received" and "high quality" do not mean the same things. See: Halo 2.

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