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A bit of info gathering - the main point of this is for Endless Saga, a project of mine, in the event anyone's curious.

How do you, or would you, prefer to play a third-person PC game?

The two main options I have to offer are the traditional "up is forward, back is backwards, left is left, right is right; mouse controls the camera" system and the GTA I and II/Resident Evil type "left and right rotate you and forward/back move you in the direction you're facing" system, only with the camera pointing in the direction you're facing. I definately welcome other options, however.

Any other thoughts and feelings on controls in a third-person game are welcomed (ie, common annoyances with the camera system and such.)

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I think that a WSAD and mouse configuration would be the best for your game, and I especially hate swivel turning. It pissed me off like hell in Monkey Island 4.

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"We're not tools of the government or anyone else. Fighting... fighting was the only thing I was ever good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in." - Frank Yeager (a.k.a. Grey Fox)

I find swivel turning good unless it's painfully slow, but the other mode's just as good really, so I haven't got a preference as such. Some combination of both would be nice, like, hold a key down and then it become swivel.

This post has been edited by Del S on 5th April 2006 16:50

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

One thing to consider is that movement isn't the only thing that factors into a game. Personally I'm partial to swivel turning because this only requires one hand. Imagine trying to chase an NPC through a maze, like the rat in CT's 2300 AD ruins.

- You have to hold down the "run" key.
- You have to hold down the "walk" key (a directional key)
- You have to manipulate the camera so you can keep running in the right direction.
- You have to be able to quickly hit the "talk" button, possibly without releasing either the run or movement keys.

With one hand on the mouse, this is physically impossible short of twisting your hand in uncomfortable ways. At least with swivel turning you don't have to manipulate the camera, which frees up a hand to operate other controls. Worse yet, can you picture having to resort to using a controller AND a mouse? Migrating from keyboard to controller seems like it would be impossible...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 5th April 2006 09:07)

One thing to consider is that movement isn't the only thing that factors into a game. Personally I'm partial to swivel turning because this only requires one hand. Imagine trying to chase an NPC through a maze, like the rat in CT's 2300 AD ruins.

- You have to hold down the "run" key.
- You have to hold down the "walk" key (a directional key)
- You have to manipulate the camera so you can keep running in the right direction.
- You have to be able to quickly hit the "talk" button, possibly without releasing either the run or movement keys.

With one hand on the mouse, this is physically impossible short of twisting your hand in uncomfortable ways. At least with swivel turning you don't have to manipulate the camera, which frees up a hand to operate other controls. Worse yet, can you picture having to resort to using a controller AND a mouse? Migrating from keyboard to controller seems like it would be impossible...

At first, I was leaning towards the "Standard" UP is up, DOWN is Down, etc., but now that you mention chase-type scenarios I have begun to see the merits of "swivel turning". That's what you should go with.

If you want a hands-on example of the traditional up/down/left/right movement coupled with the mouse, the demo on the ES website (dating from last christmas, just weeks after I got back into this thing) implements it. While the camera system changed a lot since then and there isn't any support for configurable keys in it, the basics are the same.

I'm thinking I might do a little bit of both - I've coded support for two different camera systems depending on what I need (one that remains at a constant distance from the player and follows him/her, and one that remains fixed for more dramatic shots.) Currently I'm considering using the swivel turning system with the former and the traditional U/D/L/R system with the latter. But frankly they're the only two systems I can think of, anyhow.

Anything else out there?

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

i prefer W-up, A-left, S-down, and D-right. it's much easier to deal with. cuz like in Tomb Raider, the controls had you constantly stopping to adjust your heading. i hated it.

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moé in the streets, senpai in the sheets

I'd suggest doing something like PC San Andreas, I think, though I tended to play that with a gamepad. I hope analogue gamepad support will be in there, BTW, as it's much better for third person games IMHO.

I simply can't tell you how much I hate swivel turning in every game where I've had to use it. As soon as you get the camera facing in the opposite direction, everything becomes highly confusing as you grapple for which way the "left" key really means. It's fine if you think about it, but you shouldn't have to; it should be intuitive.

I'm mostly thinking of 2D games with a fixed camera here, mind. (OK, I'm mostly thinking of LBA/Relentless, which I really love, but the control system drives me berserk). The camera might make things better. But I'm not holding my breath, because swivel turning is just wrong in every experience I've had with it in third person games (other than when you're swivelling the camera and your own perspective at the same time via the mouse or an analogue stick).

This post has been edited by Tiddles on 5th April 2006 20:36

The 'rotate' with arrow keys and forced camera angle is a concept that should only exist on the console. If you are planning on a forced facing camera angle, then you should really look at the game view like an FPS, only with a visible avatar instead of 'behind the eyes'.

That is to say, classic WASD + mouse for look/rotate/etc. See Jedi Knight II.

If the camera angle is static, similar to Neverwinter Nights, then rotate key comes back into play.

Form follows function. Always.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

I agree with the people that say WASD + Mouse. Tis my favorit control setting, and it works very easily.

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http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c136/Cooler-C/vivi.jpg

About WASD movement (well, directions + mouse; no game should ever be without configurable keys - I use the arrow keys, myself ), how would having to keep a hand on the mouse work in a chase-type scenario like the one I mentionned? Keep in mind not everyone is an experienced gamer used to pressing multiple buttons with their left hand at once, or an experienced programmed used to killing a keyboard with both hands at once when code won't compile.

That's mostly what I'm worried about. Havine one hand doing the movement and another doing actions seems more natural to me than one hand (in most cases, the non-primary hand) doing everything and the other serving as the look-around hand, though that might be because I don't play FPS-type genres often enough. I might also consider both, and making it configurable...



A few gratuitous screenshots (some old, some recent) to illustrate what I have in mind. Though by all means feel free to bring up any kind of view, not just 3rd person. Ideas often stem from the strangest of places.

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I hope analogue gamepad support will be in there, BTW, as it's much better for third person games IMHO.

I can't guarantee that. I don't have an analog controller so testing would be quite hard. But if enough people want it, I can shell out ~30 bucks for a controller to test this no problem.

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As soon as you get the camera facing in the opposite direction

What about if the camera can only be moved while you're idle and always faces the same direction the character does when you turn/move? A camera would never be able to face the opposite direction your character faces in that case (especially if it automatically swivels back into place after a few moments once you've let go of the mouse button.)

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If the camera angle is static, similar to Neverwinter Nights, then rotate key comes back into play.

Kinda curious about this. What do you mean by "rotate key"?

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 5th April 2006 14:03)

About WASD movement (well, directions + mouse; no game should ever be without configurable keys - I use the arrow keys, myself ), how would having to keep a hand on the mouse work in a chase-type scenario like the one I mentionned? Keep in mind not everyone is an experienced gamer used to pressing multiple buttons with their left hand at once, or an experienced programmed used to killing a keyboard with both hands at once when code won't compile.

Place your left hand on the home keys like you should. Now move fingers over one key so that the index is on the 'D'
The natural posture here allows your left thumb to mash spacebar and perhaps alt. Your left pinkie should easily reach shift and ctrl. This gives you arrow key control along with accessible buttons with a single hand.
Your right hand has at least three buttons (and a wheel up and down motion).

That's 8 buttons worth of combos + two directional controls. This is not much different from current gaming pads, and current pads (dual shock in this example) has your left hand mashing L1 and L2.

Quote (Silverlance @ 5th April 2006 14:03)

That's mostly what I'm worried about. Havine one hand doing the movement and another doing actions seems more natural to me than one hand (in most cases, the non-primary hand) doing everything and the other serving as the look-around hand, though that might be because I don't play FPS-type genres often enough. I might also consider both, and making it configurable...

Try it before you knock it. Believe me. Having two directional controls on opposite hands with most fingers still free is quite impressive. In addition, many right handed users tend to leave their left hand on the keyboard and mouse with right. That's why shortcuts like ctrl-d and alt-tab are so popular. People are used to this design.

One of the professors who taught me UI-theory said: "There is no intuitive interface aside from the nipple". It's quite true, intutitive is just description of where you expect things to be, that is, from past experience. However, you would do well to build on a base of experience. The keyboard-mouse combo is one that is very well engrained in most users.

Quote (Silverlance @ 5th April 2006 14:03)

Kinda curious about this. What do you mean by "rotate key"?

When you say left and right arrow keys force your character to rotate in said direction, that's what I mean. I do not mean a modifier key (alt or R1) that makes your direction key change to rotate movements (see Link to the Past).



I point out that if your camera angle is static overhead (FF7 or Myst), mouse look is nigh useless. The power of the mouse-look is that it does two things at once. Control camera, and control direction character is facing.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Quote (Silverlance)

I can't guarantee that. I don't have an analog controller so testing would be quite hard. But if enough people want it, I can shell out ~30 bucks for a controller to test this no problem.

You can get an adapter to use a PlayStation Dual Shock via USB much cheaper than that, which will not only improve your life, but will also follow the same principle as any "real" PC gamepad (except the Xbox 360 pad via XInput, though it still works with good old DirectInput, minus rumble). Just make sure to have the buttons and axes as configurable as possible, because there's no sodding standard for what anything maps to.

Quote (Silverlance)

What about if the camera can only be moved while you're idle and always faces the same direction the character does when you turn/move? A camera would never be able to face the opposite direction your character faces in that case (especially if it automatically swivels back into place after a few moments once you've let go of the mouse button.)

That's not so bad for confusion, but then I can't use the mouse at all when running, having to find some other keys to do something in a nasty digital manner that I'm thoroughly used to doing smoothly with the mouse. I'll echo Elessar's sentiment here: it's just the natural way to use PC controls.

Back in the dark days when Doom was the latest thing, the default setup was using up=forward, down=back, left & right to turn, and then a bunch of other keys to do your actions. It seemed OK at the time, but try getting one of the newer Doom source ports that allow you to use a modern style mouselook setup, and suddenly the game becomes ridiculously easy for the very reason mouselook+WASD strafe took off in the first place: it just feels right. (OK, and allows much better aim in an FPS, which isn't as relevant here, but it's still more natural.)

I'll also agree with Elessar that an overhead or otherwise fixed-camera view renders this system pointless, though you could fall back to a traditional left on keys = left on screen etc. scenario here if this is used only in specific cases -- it'd have to be clear which method was in use at any specific point and you'd need to avoid jarring transitions while the player is in the middle of trying to run somewhere. I think a fixed viewpoint also makes the keys-to-turn mechanic tortuous for the reasons I was describing earlier: utter confusion when facing "down"/towards camera.

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Try it before you knock it. Believe me. Having two directional controls on opposite hands with most fingers still free is quite impressive.

Problem is, it's too confusing (at least for me, a non-gamer.) My fingers not only feel terribly cramped, I'm getting confused over which finger should push down when I want to do something because they're all so close by. Granted, I'm myself and other people are, well, other people. But I'm just saying, it takes a bit of getting used to.

I usually play emulated SNES games with a hand on the arrow keys and the other on Insert/Home/etc. Most people are baffled how I can manage with such a cramped layout. Can't say I blame them, but it works quite well for me - I also play Neo Geo fighting games with this setup. So I can see where you're coming from with this; it's just too many functions with one hand for my poor caffeine-ravaged brain though.

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"There is no intuitive interface aside from the nipple".

...Nipples are fun... Do you mean the little nub in the middle of laptop keyboards? I've always heard that one called a "clit." Kinda makes you wonder just how lonely the engineers who cooked up the idea were, naming it after female erogenous zones. ^^;

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When you say left and right arrow keys force your character to rotate in said direction, that's what I mean. I do not mean a modifier key (alt or R1) that makes your direction key change to rotate movements (see Link to the Past)

You know, you gave me an idea just there. A key to bind the camera to the player's heading would mean having both systems at once without either getting in the way of the other. The directions+mouse setup you and many others mention could be the default, but hitting a specific key would suddently change the way this behaves. The camera would "stick" to the direction the player faces. Along with the typical "left/right/up/down" keys there could also be "turn left" and "turn right" keys (the latter which would be better suited to the locked camera mode, but also useful to players who are more comfortable with that kind of movement - they could configure the keys so that A and D rotate instead of moving left/right.)

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Just make sure to have the buttons and axes as configurable as possible, because there's no sodding standard for what anything maps to.

I've never actually experimented with this, though my old pad had a pretty shoddy directional pad. It basically behaved as a directional pad mounted on a ball-bearing and could double as a pressure-sensitive analog "pad." Great idea in theory, but terrible in practice - you could hardly use it as a directional pad because the ball-bearing it rested on bumped the pad too high.

Anyhow. Configurating keys/buttons/whatnot is definately a must. I think we've proven how different people can use different setups in this thread quite often (though the WASD directional buttons seem to be the more popular movement keys.)

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(various things about fixed viewpoints / top-down view / etc)

Seeing as I'm using sprites, rotating without the camera to give a visual clue as to which direction is being faced is impossible anyways... short of drawing 360 (or something like that) frames per frame of animation, which is probably not happening. This means the only way out would be the WASD-style movement (with rotation keys serving as directions in those cases, I suppose.)

(Much thanks for the input (no pun intended) so far, btw)

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."