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Oh yeah!!

Oh yeah. It seems alot of the summons are going to be final bosses from past FF games! That's right, old ones! Yes! Most notably, Ultima, Chaos, Paramekia, X-Death, and Zeromus!

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

No Alexander, Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh, Odin or even everyones favorite killing machine Bahamut.

Not sure if I like the new roster of Tactics characters and older bosses.

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Life is not a practice, always play to win.
I buried Ponce.

Oh who cares about them?! It's frickin' Zeromus! And X-Death! And Chaos! And...ugh, it's just so incredibly awesome! Besides, this game is big on breaking traditions as it is, so I'm not really that surprised anymore

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

I'm a little upset about their being no Shiva or Ifrit, but we'll see how it goes...

Oh, and also, I'm a little bit ticked that my birth month has again been shamed by Queklain

They all look awesome. Great pics.

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Whether you take the doughnut hole as a blank space or as an entity unto itself is a purely metaphysical question and does not affect the taste of the doughnut one bit.

http://slightly-bitter.blog.co.uk

ExDeath and Zeromus as summons. And Zeromus has Big Bang.

I could die now and I wouldn't care.

This post has been edited by ThroneofDravaris on 31st March 2006 11:28

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THE HOFF

I really don't mind one way or another. Sure, there's no Ifrit or Shiva, but this isn't the original team, remember? This is the Vagrant Story and FF Tactics team, and they've made the game the way they want to make the game, and their game has FFT and FFTA-styled summons. I'm psyched for it.

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

I don't mind seeing "boss" summons, but some of the techs/summons are named really poorly. "Divine Death"? "Gaia's Wrath"? "Perfect Ultima"? They all sound like a new roleplayer's take on his/her own limit breaks.

Queklain also seemed to have got some Botox and lost his second belly-mouth...

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Are they going to tell me anything about this game to make me not think it's going to be rubbish? Anything at all?

I'm firmly expecting the worst still, and if there's any further bad news, I'm going up from 'could be wrong' to 'not even going to buy it.'

Assuming they release it in the UK within a year. Any longer, to hell with that. TBA 2006 at the moment, but I'm not stupid. Like if they replace the rubbish song they have now with Yakety Sax.

This post has been edited by Del S on 31st March 2006 22:30

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

The important thing is this is going to spark an attempt by fans to attempt to resolve this into some sort of general FF-'continuity'. Of course this has already been done, but I'm sure the fact that FFXII refers to names of characters in previous games will add fire to the mix.

I, for one, look forward to much laughter.

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Visions of Peace - Four Generals, One Empire, and the Returners caught in the middle.

Quote (Elessar @ 31st March 2006 15:07)

I, for one, look forward to much laughter.

You've just made my day.

I'm quite upset to see older bosses as summons. Talk about breaking continuity and introducing ridiculous cross-overs... Then I read your post, and I can't agree more. This is going to spark some serious hillarity.

Still, I can't help but miss the older, traditional, Final Fantasy summons. Where's Bahamuth? Leviathan? Iron Maiden drummer Nicko McBrain? Phoenix? The summons of my childhood have vanished into the mists of time, it seems.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (Silverlance @ 31st March 2006 13:50)

Iron Maiden drummer Nicko McBrain

So, true, got me out of many a jam.

While part me likes being able to use past bosses as summons, it just isn't right.

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH! No Knights of the Round! WAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! I want KotR! Ah well, at least theres Ultima.

At least they're keeping SOME parts of Ivalice consistant

Your link didnt work on me, but I googled it. Velius is a summon spell! And Ultima! And (i dont know what you guys are talking about) there's ifrit. But thats cool how there's at least some connection to the Tactics games. Is there any chance that there will be other connections?


I still dont know if the game is going to be worth it, though...

oh yeah, here's where I saw Ifrit
http://www.ffxii.net/?nav=game/summons

This post has been edited by You Spoony Bard! on 30th April 2006 18:51

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Can you pull down the dawn?
It's been so dark since you've been gone
and we've been begging for the morning to come.
We were so optimistic,
wasn't it so easy to be?
We were young and naive.
-The Hush Sound: Eileen

It's not like they're taking out the old summons completely. (Airships will be named after the older summons.)

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OSonic Rave
/ \Last Arcanum
[ ]Strike Raid
XRagnarok

Quote (Silverlance @ 31st March 2006 16:50)

[QUOTE=Elessar,31st March 2006 15:07]Iron Maiden drummer Nicko McBrain?

At first I thought you were talking about the one-armed drummer from Def Leopard. he rocked.

I miss the old summons too. While I hate 10 minute summoning animations as much as the next sane gamer, I was looking forward to seeing how Square would render Bahamut in this installment.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Turns out, its a freakin' airship.

.

Also, from what I heard, the summons are a bit of a let-down power-wise to the point where folks aren't even using them. I think FF Summons have finally jumped the shark.

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Oh sure, I don't have to get kicked in the junk to activate it, but I like it anyway. -- Thief commenting on the difference between Throw and Blue Magic.

Quote (You Spoony Bard! @ 30th April 2006 13:48)

Your link didnt work on me, but I googled it.  Velius is a summon spell!  And Ultima!  And (i dont know what you guys are talking about) there's ifrit.

There's already a fire summon, Velius, and your "Ifrit" is really Hashmalum, another FFT boss.

A change of pace is good. What do you people expect? Another FF I to X? There's always talk about something broken here and there in other FF's, there's always a problem. The minute a FF comes along that actually tries to remove itself in many ways from the others (yet still titled the same, the original idea of FF as a series) with different ideas altogether, it's suddenly cried as foul. You're not witnessing another number, you're witnessing the first true changing of creative hands, the beginning of a new generation of design in Square.

I'm probably the only person who's perfectly fine with a new roster of summons. Wasn't that an appeal of summons to begin with, to see what the next summon looks like and does? That is one of the first things you do when you scope out a new FF. There's a bit too much enthusiasm to see the same summons over and over with little change (Bahamut is the only one that looks completely different every tme). Really, summons were unbalanced in FF to begin with ( elemtental bias, among many flaws). When you got later summons, did you pay attention to the earlier ones? Heck no, you forgot there was an Ifrit or Leviathan when you got Bahamut. Since the entire roster is different, perhaps it means a finally balanced summon system?

Powered-down summons? Technically it is a logical choice since summons have been repeatedly accused of overpowering the game. If you're not using it, you're certainly not abusing it.

Old summons as airships? Now you feel like I did when Ragnarok was a spaceship in FF8.

Quote (SaintWeapon @ 1st May 2006 03:38)

Quote (You Spoony Bard! @ 30th April 2006 13:48)

Your link didnt work on me, but I googled it.  Velius is a summon spell!  And Ultima!  And (i dont know what you guys are talking about) there's ifrit.

There's already a fire summon, Velius, and your "Ifrit" is really Hashmalum, another FFT boss.

A change of pace is good. What do you people expect? Another FF I to X? There's always talk about something broken here and there in other FF's, there's always a problem. The minute a FF comes along that actually tries to remove itself in many ways from the others (yet still titled the same, the original idea of FF as a series) with different ideas altogether, it's suddenly cried as foul. You're not witnessing another number, you're witnessing the first true changing of creative hands, the beginning of a new generation of design in Square.

I'm probably the only person who's perfectly fine with a new roster of summons. Wasn't that an appeal of summons to begin with, to see what the next summon looks like and does? That is one of the first things you do when you scope out a new FF. There's a bit too much enthusiasm to see the same summons over and over with little change (Bahamut is the only one that looks completely different every tme). Really, summons were unbalanced in FF to begin with ( elemtental bias, among many flaws). When you got later summons, did you pay attention to the earlier ones? Heck no, you forgot there was an Ifrit or Leviathan when you got Bahamut. Since the entire roster is different, perhaps it means a finally balanced summon system?

Powered-down summons? Technically it is a logical choice since summons have been repeatedly accused of overpowering the game. If you're not using it, you're certainly not abusing it.

Old summons as airships? Now you feel like I did when Ragnarok was a spaceship in FF8.

I don't see how your argument about previous final fantasies being broken coincides with our nostalgia for the old summons. Aside from the long past Final Fantasy VII, summons have not been drastically overpowered, and any broken complaints from more recent games have little or nothing to do with them at all. You first mention that you hope the summoning system has been balanced, and then casually claim that disuse because they're weak gameplay elements is balanced. Its not balanced, its unbalanced, simply in the opposite direction from before.

I'm fine with square adding new summons, but I think it should have been a gradual transition towards a new mythos, not a complete removal of the final fantasy tradition in its entirety. Ragnarok as a summon was hardly a tradition - ONE GAME. On the other hand, Bahamut has been in the summoning business for over half a dozen titles. Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh too (although Ramuh was replaced in X). For the better part of the series, they were iconic, intrinsic pieces, while this upstart Final Fantasy Tactics business was just lingering along.

It feels like a hostile takeover to me, and the former summons were given a lame pension and forced into retirement.

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Oh sure, I don't have to get kicked in the junk to activate it, but I like it anyway. -- Thief commenting on the difference between Throw and Blue Magic.

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It feels like a hostile takeover to me, and the former summons were given a lame pension and forced into retirement.

Same, although for a different reason. The fact that these Lucavi are being summoned at will to attack people totally defeats their purpose that they had in FFT. What happened to "I am Lucavi...the devil"? The Zodiac Beasts are now lackeys for any mage with enough MP, now? As said previously, this is sure to cue much insanity and hilarity, but I, for one, will be crying on the inside at how the macho bosses are being misused as silly playthings. They've already had their roles solidified in the world the XII is taking place in; I take an affront to this abuse of character.

I prefer summons that have starred as summons and feel right as summons -- that's their place. Doomtrain can't be an NPC, Shiva can't be a shopkeeper, Ifrit can't be a carpenter...that would be taking them out of their series-established contexts. I'd like to think I'm not overreacting, but if the game was going to feature new summons, I'd prefer them to be completely new, not cameos of much-loved FFT bosses and similar.

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

Could it be possible that this game is taking place long before they discovered the Lucavi were evil? Or maybe it just depends on the true heart of the one who used the zociac stones... Or maybe this is going to turn out to be the Zodiac Brave story they were talking about in tactics? Meh, but continuity is probably a little too much to hope for.

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Do you think we're forever?

There just new designs. I'm unimpressed with that. And that does not look like Exdeath, Zeromus, or Chaos at all. It's just some new monsters designed by artists who ran out of newer names and replaced them with the earlier FFs.

And giving Exdeath Meteor was a TERRIBLE idea; giving him Gust Wind/Almagest would turn out better this way.

Wtf what's this?

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Zodiac: Leo

Element: Earth

Tech: Rock you

Limit break / Death blow: Gaia's Wrath

Additional Information: This is the summon that was confused to be the fire element summon; Ifrit. (As seen in the very first set of trailers)

I did not just read that..

Well, I'm always up for change and love seeing something different. I love Adramelech and Mateus, personally, they look awesome but it does seem a little weird without the mainstays in summon like the aformentioned.

This post has been edited by FabulousFreebird on 1st May 2006 21:02

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"Thought I was dead, eh? Not until I fulfill my dream!"
Seifer Almasy


"The most important part of the story is the ending."
Secret Window


"Peace is but a shadow of death."
Kuja

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 1st May 2006 13:19)

Wtf what's this?

Quote

Zodiac: Leo

Element: Earth

Tech: Rock you

I did not just read that..

See? They totally ripped off Iron Maiden drummer Nicko McBrain's ability.

Curse those vain bastards... He was a good summon, damnit...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

"Rock You"

Hmmmm, given that that is also a Queen song, what exactly are they trying to say about this summon? Maybe they should have added another attack called "Drag You Down"? Heh heh heh.

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Quote

Do you think we're forever?

Quote (WildHalcyon @ 1st May 2006 04:27)

I don't see how your argument about previous final fantasies being broken coincides with our nostalgia for the old summons. Aside from the long past Final Fantasy VII, summons have not been drastically overpowered, and any broken complaints from more recent games have little or nothing to do with them at all. You first mention that you hope the summoning system has been balanced, and then casually claim that disuse because they're weak gameplay elements is balanced. Its not balanced, its unbalanced, simply in the opposite direction from before.

I'm fine with square adding new summons, but I think it should have been a gradual transition towards a new mythos, not a complete removal of the final fantasy tradition in its entirety. Ragnarok as a summon was hardly a tradition - ONE GAME. On the other hand, Bahamut has been in the summoning business for over half a dozen titles. Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh too (although Ramuh was replaced in X). For the better part of the series, they were iconic, intrinsic pieces, while this upstart Final Fantasy Tactics business was just lingering along.

It feels like a hostile takeover to me, and the former summons were given a lame pension and forced into retirement.

Did you mean FFVII or FFVIII? The latter had a severely broken summon system.

Apparently I'm unable to be concise and brief, so I'll argue again, but step-by-step, and get flak for it. First, recognize the purpose a of a summon considering the already existing hierarchy of magic. I'm to assume a summon is a more powerful verson of any similar, conventional spell with a respectively raised cost? For example, you have Fire, Fira, Fireaga, then Ifrit. Before FFX, when did Ifrit do anything more than just be a more powerful, flashier fire elemental attack? There's not much to say, correct? Summoning is a class-specific ability, obviously the summoner class, with and array of summons comparable to the spells of the black and white mage. Aside from the flashier, higher-grade mechanics, isn't it just glorifying a pre-existing function in a seperate role? On that alone, it's a case of redundancy. Plot elements usually connect with summons, the other (and stronger) reason for the summons. FFVI allowed anyone access to summons, FFVII likewise, and ultimately FFVIII. Here, it's pretty much story that defines summons rather than combat practicality.

You have to hold the summon in higher regard than the corresponding spell, it's a being with plot involvement of course. Based on this principle, the battle engine (that which executes the principle) can go one of two ways: 1) utterly rely on it, or 2) keep it sacred (rare, treasure, etc.). Ask yourself which FF installements fall into either category. I find it really hard to typify FFVI, VIII, and X as anything but the first category. This is crucial to understand, you have to imagine subracting summons from those games, and they literally fall apart both gameplaywise and storywise.

What do those three games have in common outside the summons? Everyone becomes everything in the end; no limits on who can be what. What's the vehicle to this end result? The summons. In FFVI and FFVIII you technically cannot perform in battle without summons, and maxing out what the summons can do directly maxes out what the characters can do. FFX, I'll admit, isn't such a one-way road. However, aeons are your first bet in entering the big leagues (celestial weapons, arena), then its a promotion into the ace-of-all-trades for everyone. Balance issues are bound to happen in this engine style. This might all sound like sudden crap, but bear in mind, the fact I can talk like this about these games and not the other titles (ie: FFIV, FFV doesn't either because summons are not the class system) makes evident there is such a situation.

Now, the problem of balance for summons in general is something I didn't think I would fully explain again. You know the early summon ladder: Get Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh (who of course was also replaced in VIII before X) in sequence. Fire opposed Ice, Lightning opposes... well, sorry, Lightning opposes Water, and Leviathan isn't around for a long time. Wait, the implication that in the polar arrangement of elements, Lightning doesn't have its counterpart for an extended time? Absurd!

Anyway, back to the initial three summons, you tend to gain them one after another rather than all at once. Isn't it logical to assume since they serve as the elemental summons, they're all on the assumption that only elements needs to be given attention as the means of exploiting weakness? For example, should I expect that in the entire game, should I encounter a fire-elemental, I should always use Shiva to foil the enemy, because Shiva has the largest elemental advantage? I'm sorry, battle data doesn't correlate with that expectation. Apparently whomever is earned after Shiva, be it Ramuh or Ifrit, that summon simply has a higher base damage calculation. The difference might not be much, but suppose you go through a list of 6 summons after Shiva? That last summon has a base damage calculation so much higher than Shiva, the elemental modifiers are no longer advantageous, no longer practical. Shiva has become obsolete. This is elemental bias, the situation in which the present elemental factors can be outright ignored in favor of something purely more powerful, despite this stronger method having its own element. This is the balance issue I primarily speak of, the self-defeat of the elemental table that summons intrinsically root in.

Imbalancing issues like the elemental bias are as old as the summon tradition. Don't minderstand the relationship of summons among themselves in the system as simply summons among the system. If something is off kilter with the summons, then you strongly build them into the system, guess what, the system will be off kilter. If the the summons are going to be off-kilter anyway, then do not strongly build them into the system, and therefore the system is less likely to get off kilter. I claim the balance concern of less room for error, NOT the balance concern of having more room.

Ragnarok was indeed a summon once, but I was too vague as to allow myself to be taken as speaking of Ragnarok only as a summon. Ragnarok, the sword suddenly became a summon and spaceship. That is what I referred to, the taking of an inanimate object into an animate one bearing as much shock as taking an animate one into an inanimate object.

Remember when I mentioned holding summons in higher regard than similar spells? It's a mascot mentality, you grow attached to something you find a personality in. Then again, a mascot usually is an attachment with no practical function. Maybe the difference in thinking about summons as a practical thing or a attachment is a decision, and Square this time flipped the position of the tradiaitonal summons. Maybe these new summons are useless, I do not know, but how much less usefull will they be compared to the summons in FFIII? One thing I am certain here, is that airships are damn useful and important. Maybe I'll be accused of claiming that traditional summons were always useless and suddenly became usefull when no longer summons?

So FFT is invading? I don't know, FFT was a solid triumph of Square that ran alongside the other triumph of Square in 1997. Since the brain behind the series left, perhaps the only other brain with the closest prestige Square had was none other than the man behind FFT. I see it as more like falling back on the branch that was always there but never severed itself like a famous limb. FFT wasn't the first choice, it was just there and not intentionally took over Square from the get-go.

Old bosses as summons is not new! The ghost train boss of VI became the Doomtrain of FFVIII. Chupon, from VI, became a summon in VII. The Magus Sisters of X were bosses in IV. Atomos, a V boss, became a summon in IX. Minotaur and Sekmet, bosses in V, were summons in VIII as well! The only difference with these new summons is they were final bosses. They weren't THAT macho, if XII wanted to truly take the macho bosses, they'd take the optional bosses like Ultima Weapon. Ex-death is actually a somewhat rational a choice: Gilgamesh and Atomos, his minions, were already used as summons.

Chaos, Parmekia, Ex-death... they died, remember? You killed them, and now Square made them serve out their afterlife punishment as summons, serving your beck and call and taking all your complaints.

It's OK to reuse the summons from the first time, it's OK to reuse bosses as bosses again. It's OK to reuse a summon as a boss. It's OK to reuse a boss as a summon. But it's not OK to reuse final bosses as summons? You're seeing final bosses AGAIN, and now they're ON YOUR SIDE!