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I’m doing yet another project, and I want to know how others feel about this topic. In my Honors English class, we just finished reading the worst book ever (IMO) Lord of the Flies. Due to that, my class has to write an essay on whether we think humans have an evil, good, or neutral nature. Before I share my beliefs, I want to know how you all feel about humans. Are we truly evil, good, or neutral?

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And don't drive your car off a cliff like I did. Girl, no man is worth 10 points on your license.

I think that all people are basically good. Things might happen to twist people into thinking that evil things are justifiable or even right, or people might do things that they know are wrong, but I think that there's something innately good about humanity. Even a man like Pol Pot, responsible for the torture and deaths of thousands, had children who loved him. Hitler, by all accounts, once aspired to nothing more than the creation of beauty through art. Even when people do evil, that doesn't make them evil.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

If you are asking if people are natrually born evil, then my answer is also no. I was also going to quote the Hitler example, but karasuman mentioned it already. A baby, for really isn't evil, even if they grow up to do rotten things.

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Dead Winter. A nice comic.

I think under normal circumstances, human nature can play out in a "good" way. S'pose it could be argued that only actions are evil, not people, but that kind of shirks off responsibility. It's those tribulations a person is put through that changes everything up, puts the nose to the grindstone, and I can't really fault any/everyone when they go through that kind of trauma.

Haven't read Lord of the Flies in some time (I liked it), but isn't it a bunch of British schoolchildren -- innocent little kids -- who crash onto a deserted island and generally display the devolution of the society they create? I remember Piggy, Simon, a conch...

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

like mentiont before ,we humans aren't born evil , when we grow up we sometimes do evil things but its only cause : a) we don't know better or b ) it seems to be the right thing to us... but that doesn't mean that evil people don't exist! people who rape other people , them perverts who do stuff with children or people who love to kill , they are the true devils among mankind! so actually , when you think about it all this together is more a neutal thing cause we do good things but unfortanlly we also do evil things ...

sorry for the double post i was eddeting it and i clickt the wrong button

This post has been edited by ziegfried on 23rd February 2006 18:48

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They may be monsters, but they're sea monsters. What're they gonna do? Flop around on deck and suffocate at us threateningly?

I suppose Humans are basically "good".

Now whether that is due to being instilled with some better nature by a higher power or simply that humans who worked better with others more often survived in our ancestors is another issue

Well, in words that any old D&D hounds like me would understand, I believe people are basiccally Chaotic-Neutral.

We are more or less a blank page when we are born. We have no concept of morality or right and wrong, until it is taught to us. We do, I believe, carry an immense capacity for doing both good and evil.

I also believe, however, that left to our own devices, humanity has a dark seed in it's heart, that will manifest itself in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

I think "neutral" is the wrong term for it. I believe that we have a mix of good and evil (sort of extreme terms in themselves), however, we are freely able to supress one or the other. We are born "pure", but as we grow older and are able to make our own decisions, we become tainted as we do the wrong thing.

We are not good, evil, or neutral. We have free will, and we make choices, which judged by our, or other people's morals, are manifested into the aforementioned groups.



Have you ever played Black and White? As it is based upon moral choices, which determine if you are Good or Evil. You may also learn something about yourself from your experience.

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The frosty one.

Some people are more evil than good and some are more good than evil. I think everyone has a certain amount of both in them. Thus no one can be defined as being entirely one or the other and neither can the human race in my opinion.

I do believe that most people are more good than evil.
To be truely evil I think you have to peform evil while knowing full well that the act is evil, and having no regret in doing it even though you fully understand why it wrong. Such as murder, rape, etc.

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

I believe that people lean towards a kinda selfish good, in that the majority of the time, people tend to do what they feel is best for them or atleast what they feel needs to be done. I don't believe in some apriori 'alignment,' but that free will, logic, morals (I couldn't say, however, whether morals are something we develop or something we inherently have, though I lean towards the former) contribute to the descisions we make and therefore our choices often in our best interest, or, in some cases, as Utilitarianism dictates, 'The greatest good for the greatest number,' for example, sacrificing oneself for the life of a world leader.
Even things like self harm, which in the short run have a negative effect, are done intentionally for, I'd assume, some degree of release or distraction or similar, and though the Hitler example has been done to death, he's a pretty good example of this sort of 'we work in our own interest' good.
To summarise, I don't believe there is an inherent good or evil alignment within us, but that human nature dictates we naturally lean often towards whatever benefits us personally, but occassionally to a greater good, and that very rarely if ever do people make descisions that have an entirely negative impact on their lives and to that extent, humans by their very nature (that is, the things they learn, experience, are taught, notice as normal, etc.) are good.

But, I'm a 16-year-old with half a year of studying Philosophy and minimal real world experience under my belt. Feel free to point out flaws in my logic, I'd actually appreciate it, as this is the kind of stuff I'm pretty interested in.

edit: Of course, reading up, Fatman brings up an interesting point about rape and having to be aware that an act is evil. I think, however, it's more an example of that selfish good, and that the gratification a rapist/murderer gets overrides the guilt/worry/whatever else he might feel. That brings up the question as to whether some people have a clearer judgement of what a positive and negative act is, and whether some people have a more short-term, selfish sense of what is good/beneficial whilst some have a clearer idea of what is good for them and he people around them. Being that I'm a fan of 'nurture' over 'nature,' I'm inclined to say that that's true, and that the kinda lengths to which that idea of what is good stretch vary-person to person. So, really, as Protagoras said, 'Man is the measure of all things,' and I don't believe that there is any pre-determined measure of good whatsoever, just people acting as they think they should, to benefit themselves or towards a greater good.
This last section is alot clearer in my head, I assure you.

This post has been edited by Mimic on 31st May 2006 22:53

Quote (Hamedo @ 23rd February 2006 14:51)

Well, in words that any old D&D hounds like me would understand, I believe people are basiccally Chaotic-Neutral.

Oh helloz yea!

Back to topic:
Interesting question posed here. I can't really have a general standard here. There are equally as many good people as there are bad people. I don't mean things like Murder and such (though it does follow the person for the rest of their lives, marking them as evil), but should be judged on day to day basis.

For instance, a woman is struggling with her groceries. You can assist her or ignore her, or knock over the cart. Most people would ignore her, from what ive studied thanks to mass media and my isolated town in the middle of nowhere.

I've also read a lot of books (six within the past 3 months) over the years of my life, and I've come to this conclusion: Despite the odds and probabilities, no matter if there is more good or evil, your gonna meet both. Not only that, but you cannot be completley good or completley evil, because the feelings and thoughts of Man in general run very deep. The person who covers your bar tab could also be kicking kittens and puppies. That person who stole your wallet that had money in it for your PS3 savings? When he got home he could feed his 9 brothers and sisters.

The problem with people in general nowadays is noone really wants to get involved. So, my general answer for now will be neutral. At the same time, i kinda agree with Mimic's and Fatman's response with free will now that ive read it.
I still don't like ppl in general.

PS: I agree, that is one of the worst books ever written.

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

Quote (strikerbolt @ 23rd February 2006 20:57)

The person who covers your bar tab could also be kicking kittens and puppies.  That person who stole your wallet that had money in it for your PS3 savings?  When he got home he could feed his 9 brothers and sisters.

Actually, that reminds of an article my class read along with my project. It was about a man who dressed like a superhero and went around doing good deeds for people. He'd pick up trash and help people with their groceries. Superhero man was a respected member of his communty because of that. Then one day, he got a DUI and everyone lost respect for him. Or at least that's what my teacher said. I was too lazy to read the article.

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And don't drive your car off a cliff like I did. Girl, no man is worth 10 points on your license.

whoa, now we're gettin into that locke and rousseau and hobbes stuff eh? lol, well i take the view of locke! prolly cuz i dont remember the others two guy's ideologies too much...i know one of em thought humans were naturally selfish, think it was hobbes....anyways, yeah i think humans are naturally good and are influenced by outsied forces to become evil.

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"The answer is, of course, that it would be best to be both loved and feared. But since the two rarely come together, anyone compelled to choose will find greater security in being feared than in being loved."
- Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince

Depending on the context, I often think humans are born as a blank slate and are influenced by how they are raised and their experiences in their environment. However, humans also have two inherent desires: to help themselves, and to help people who care about them. While these desires can be changed by the influence of their environments, they are very easy to return to.

Okay, that's enough BS from me on this topic. For now at least.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

I believe people are inherently good, being that we're all born innocent, which is the epitomy of goodness IMO. It's only through surrounding environmental influences that people learn to deviate.

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Do you think we're forever?

I believe that people are neither good nor evil. Those are just words that people use to label one another. If you can’t agree with someone on many things, they are evil. If you can, they are good. An example is suicide. To most Christians, committing suicide means that the person was possessed by the devil to kill themselves. Hence, that person was evil. Yet for most people in the Middle East countries, committing suicide is perfectly okay. And if you kill yourself whilst taking your enemies along, that is really good to them. Another example is premarital sex. Some people believe that having premarital sex is immoral and wrong. You’re supposed to save your virginity for the one you marry. Others will argue, it’s human to have sex with someone because you have the desire to do so. The former will think that the latter are evil, and vice versa. In the end, opinion, culture, and beliefs are what really make up good and evil.

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And don't drive your car off a cliff like I did. Girl, no man is worth 10 points on your license.

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To most Christians, committing suicide means that the person was possessed by the devil to kill themselves. Hence, that person was evil.

Don't pronounce blanket statements to cover "most Christians" that are completely false and ridiculous. This might have been true in the middle ages under more extreme sects of Catholicism, but it is not viewed this way today by any reputable Christian organization. Possibly some fringe group nutjobs, but that's about it.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

It might be true, but I wouldn’t know. My whole family, including aunts, uncles, and the such, believe that and they aren’t Catholic. But again, I really wouldn’t know since most of the Christians I know think like that.

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And don't drive your car off a cliff like I did. Girl, no man is worth 10 points on your license.

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But again, I really wouldn’t know since most of the Christians I know think like that.

LOLXORZ

Okay then. Maybe your statement should read:

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To most Christians in my immediate area which I am located in, committing suicide means that the person was possessed by the devil to kill themselves. Hence, that person was evil.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

K, now you're just geting into semantics. The gist of the argument is that morality (evil/good) is all relative, blah blah blah. Personally I think it's a bit of a cop-out argument that allows its adherent to refrain from taking a stance at all on the matter. So Indians believe suicide is fine and while christians don't. Ok. And? Know what a mean, jellybeans? The theory still doesn't answer the actual question, which is "are people born good, evil, or neutral?" Am I just being all semantical now? I'll stop.

This post has been edited by ultimage on 25th February 2006 23:58

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Do you think we're forever?

Actually Dante Allegheri interpreted suicide to be a sin worthy of it's own circle in hell. I've read Dante, and admittedly I haven't read a whole lot of the Bible, although I have glanced at it for a few hours at a time at a few different points. Alot of what Dante said was head on with the things he called Sins, including the 7 deadly ones. Everything he called a sin, to my knowledge, was derived from his interpretation of the Bible. But... http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_bibl.htm
That's a rather interesting take on the subject. It really doesn't sway one way or the other. One can take it either way, really. Dante happened to choose bad.


This isn't really about that though-

My personal opinion on the subject relates most closely to that of Thomas Hobbes. Where we can sometimes act selflessly, it is seldom. I believe he described life as- Nasty, Brutish, and Short. Well, government keeps us in line, and I agree with Golding's take in Lord of the Flies. To me, it's all rather sound, and I can't see how one could believe we're all good. Certainly humans are capable of good, but not a whole lot. It's funny. I think individually we're all pretty capable of good, yet when I think of the Mob, I think evil people doing evil things. It's a bit contradictory given that I believe on an individual level we're capable of good things. Mob mentality perhaps?

I believe an absence of law would cause people to go Lord of the Flies. This is of course provided law completely ended, and it wasn't just a temporary breakdown like the one in Canada some years back.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

I'm a big believer in karma. This is just my opinion, so, bear with me.

Do nothing = neutral
Do good things = good person
Do bad things = evil person

Of course, if you've done bad things but then do good things, you go neutral again! Isn't that just great! So, whether or not you're good or evil depends on the actions you do. That's kind of logic really though.

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'Bastards, we may be, but clever are we.'
Thorn, FFIX

Quote (Luna @ 26th February 2006 16:56)

I'm a big believer in karma. This is just my opinion, so, bear with me.

Do nothing = neutral
Do good things = good person
Do bad things = evil person

Of course, if you've done bad things but then do good things, you go neutral again! Isn't that just great! So, whether or not you're good or evil depends on the actions you do. That's kind of logic really though.

I think it's a little more complicated than that, surely it also depends on the person's perception of reality?

I mean one person may perceive an action as good, while another will see it as very good.

An extreme example would be, someone's religion may tell them it is good to murder certain people who are not believers and doing so is a holy act. Now you could say these people have been pretty much brain washed.
We perceive their actions as evil. But are they actually evil people? Even though they do not understand they have done anything wrong?

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

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To most Christians, committing suicide means that the person was possessed by the devil to kill themselves.

Err... not where I'm from either. But it is wussing out on the game of life... and you go to hell too, as it counts as killing someone(you), and you don't have chance to get forgiveness.

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The frosty one.