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Quote (Gears @ 27th December 2005 20:20)

Quote (Atma @ 23rd December 2005 20:23)

Where's Italian history month? Or Jewish history month?

Italian-American Heritage month is October, to coincide with Columbus Day.

Thank you. I have a friend who'd love to know that.

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"It is a part of human nature to be evil, and it is a part of human nature to destroy evil, therefore, when evil is destroyed, so will be the human race..."
- Atma

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 26th December 2005 13:34)

The point in Christmas is to celebrate the BIRTH of Jesus Christ. It's not some "warm" holiday where you go and buy egg nog or crap like that. And what's with the "Xmas" thing? It seems like some athiests or non-believers took off the word "Christ" just so the other non-believers wouldn't be offended or something like that.

X in the greek alphabet is chi the first letter of Christ's name. That's where X-mas comes from, in case you wanted to know.

(Quote bolded by me)

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TURKEY! - (The only way not to get blocked for using Fowl Language)

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 26th December 2005 11:34)

After reading Dragon_Fire's LiveJournal, I wholeheartedly agreed with everything he stated there..

I don't like how people celebrate Christmas by "giving gifts", "singing carols", or children trying to be nice all year long just so "a fat old man riding multiple floating reindeers comes to their houses and brings them gifts after eating the children's cookies and milk".

Christmas is NONE of the above. Nada. Why are people giving gifts to each other? It's not even their birthday (well, not everyone's birthday is on the 25th or 24th)!

The point in Christmas is to celebrate the BIRTH of Jesus Christ. It's not some "warm" holiday where you go and buy egg nog or crap like that. And what's with the "Xmas" thing? It seems like some athiests or non-believers took off the word "Christ" just so the other non-believers wouldn't be offended or something like that.

The way I define Christmas is this: Celebrate Jesus's birthday and feast to honor him.

Well.........from what I've been told by my 11th grade U.S. history teacher, Jesus Christ wasn't even really born on December 25th. His actual birthdate is unknown but it's said it was during tax season. My teacher said that they changed Jesus Christ's birthdate to coincide with the celebration of some religion's sun god or something like that. Can't remember the specifics. This, I believe, is also the reason why Jehova's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas because it was not the actual day Christ was born and they shun other holidays because they don't feel it's right to celebrate these things because you can't celebrate Jesus's actual birthday. I might be off on a few things but I don't really buy in to it being wrong to celebrate malarky anyway. Point is, I will celebrate Christmas as far from Christianity as I please and if that means it's about tree, gifts, egg nog and fat men, then that's what it means and it doesn't make me any less of a person to do so.

It's kind of funny too that Neo here seems to think that the only proper time to give someone a gift is their birthday. ::snicker:: If I had the money, I'd be giving gifts to people all year long and I do every once in a while, but it's nice to have a specific set aside time to do so. All hail the commercialization of Christmas!!!!

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

yes, i learned that also. (i heard they might believe Christ was born around spring or something?)



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OSonic Rave
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XRagnarok

It's because of a Pagan holiday, Yule I believe. The Christians didn't want people to celebrate Yule, so they assimilated the religion into Christmas. Yule tree becomes Christmas tree, etc. It's funny how you can slap "CHRIST" onto anything and suddenly it's Christian.

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This one time I punched a bear in the forehead TO DEATH! I still have the scars on my chest. I am the manliest man that ever did man.

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^That is an incredibly ignorant statement, ZH.^

The exact birthdate of Christ is unknown, yes, but Christians wanted a day to celebrate it nonetheless. They chose December 25th to do so. Apparently, the rest of the world didn't mind too terribly much.... seeing as how they pretty much changed their holiday to fit in to what the Christian crowd was doing with it....

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote (Hamedo @ 29th December 2005 08:38)

^That is an incredibly ignorant statement, ZH.^

Apparently, the rest of the world didn't mind too terribly much.... seeing as how they pretty much changed their holiday to fit in to what the Christian crowd was doing with it....

Now we're talking ignorance, thats brilliant.

PS: Jesus is beleived pisces, what do you think the fish is all about?



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Whether you take the doughnut hole as a blank space or as an entity unto itself is a purely metaphysical question and does not affect the taste of the doughnut one bit.

http://slightly-bitter.blog.co.uk

Right. And they didn't want to detract from religions deemed as heathen or evil. It's sort of ignorant to call a religion evil after only having a first glance at it isn't it? What better way to draw away something's influence then to smother a holy day with your own holy ideals?

It's sort of like how, Microsoft wants to release Halo 3 on the same day the PS3 comes out. Because then it creates a conflict of interest, and for most people it will probably be one or the other, not both.

So is Easter the day Jesus died or something? I've been wondering about that. And how do Santa and the Easter Bunny come into play?

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This one time I punched a bear in the forehead TO DEATH! I still have the scars on my chest. I am the manliest man that ever did man.

League: Z3roHawk
Steam: Zero_Hawk
Wii U: Zero_Hawk
FF14 - Goblin - Zero Hawk <Fiend>

I agree with ZH ... sort of. I'm not going to quote my sources ... because I don't remember them, but I did some reading on the subject and I guess they found Jesus' birth was some time in the spring, but decided to celebrate it on the 25th in hopes to stop the pagans from partying. You know, since they already had the Christ rising bit in Easter for the spring.

Easter is the celebration of Christ rising methinks, somebody go ahead and correct me. But the Easterbunny/Egg deal is a carry over from the pagan traditions of Spring. Since they believed spring to be Earth's rebirth and renewal eggs and baby chicks and bunnies became icons of it. And I think there actually was a Saint Nicholas or something or other ... I dunno, try google, ZH.

But to contribute to the topic:
My thoughts on Christmas is that it's more than a religious holiday anymore. Sure, it once was, but if the Christians want it to be totally secular to christianity, then they lost their chance from not saving it from comercialism. Any more, I'd say it's a holiday for friends, family, cookies, loaded egg nog, all that happy crap and an excuse to splurge for a video ipod for your significant other so you can "borrow" it later on in the new year. As far as the whole "war on christmas" goes, honestly, I can understand the ACLU/ultra liberal stance. I did some visiting friends in New York over the summer and it is an incredibly divers place up there. Even Hasidic Jews were common. So with no giant dreidl to match the christmas tree (especially this year with Chanuka starting the same day as Christmas Day) I understand the up roar.

This post has been edited by VomitCrotch on 30th December 2005 08:21

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I'm in a band ... dig me now ladies? Yeah, that's right, I didn't think so.

Lets see how rusty my knowledge is...

Easter actually is the day he came back to life, or the weekend of Easter is to celebrate his death and revival or something like that...

Christmas WAS origionally Yule, yes Yule was a pagan holiday. The tree is not of Christian origion (I have a really wrong joke about angels and trees that my father told me, cant post here ). The church did deem the Pagan religion as evil (hence why the "devil" has horns and a tail), but they couldn't just get rid of Yule, the one day of the year to cut down the mightiest tree in the woods (with a herring! lol), decorate it, and drink until dawn! Such a popular holiday, you can't get rid of it! Yes, noone truly knows his birth, so the Church altered it.

I think Santa was an urban legend or something like that, origionated somewhere in Eurasia/Oceania, cant remember.

Im clueless as to the Easter Bunny. He better be real, he owes me 3000 yen!

Hope that clears things up a bit. I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me at key points. I might want to do more research when I get back to school. (amazing what I do when I don't feel like playing video games or watching anime)

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

My comment to ZH had nothing to do with the history of CHristmas. It had to do with his assesment that you can "slap Christ on anything and call it Christian". my bad for not clarifying.

Seems to me that the rest of the world took the Christians ideas for Christmas and slapped them on their own beliefs. Christians didn't force the world to accept Christmas as the recognized birth of the Christ, but the world obviously thought it was a good idea....

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Luna's History of Christmas

Well, I heard that some science-y people worked out that Jesus WAS born on December 25, but back in thems days the calendar only had 10 months. So the year was a bit weird and December happened on a different season every year. But the equivalent now would be May. And Christmas probably was moved a bit nearer the Pagan festival of Yule... in fact Easter was also put near the time it is to cancel out another Pagan festival (the spring equinox?).

ANYWAY I like Christmas, you can all pretend to be all, 'oh I hate Christmas, so commercial' but let's face it, who doesn't like money, presents and food? I like Christmas 'cause I get to see my family, and I get time off school. But I actually prefer New Year.

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'Bastards, we may be, but clever are we.'
Thorn, FFIX

Ok, I asked someone who was actually a worshipper of the pagan religion, and I was way off.

Yule and Christmas are two different religions. The tree is actually a part of Christian belief (It origionated in Germany). Yule has the Yule Log that they burn to celebrate the rebirth of one of the gods (or something like that).

I apologise for the incorrectness of my post. Gomen

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

Quote (Elena1999 @ 29th December 2005 00:00)

This, I believe, is also the reason why Jehova's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas because it was not the actual day Christ was born and they shun other holidays because they don't feel it's right to celebrate these things because you can't celebrate Jesus's actual birthday.

I'm pretty sure it actually has something to do with Jehova's Witnesses not being flippin' Christians at all.

Quote

Easter actually is the day he came back to life, or the weekend of Easter is to celebrate his death and revival or something like that...

So, you got Lent which is right before Easter, and then you have Easter Friday which is to commemorate the actual crucifixion of Christ. As it goes, He rose again on the third day, and if we all remember 1st grade, three days later is Easter Sunday, when Christ resurrected from the grave. Just wanted to clear up some questions there.

More on topic, I'd have to say that Christmas is still wholly a religious holiday for me. Sure, America generally doesn't give a hoot about Jesus' resurrection, but let's not forget that Christians are still the majority in the States. Sure, we can all say "Oh, nobody really believes in this anymore! Why, everybody lies about their religious affiliation anyway! So superficial blah, blah, blah," but I have faith that there are still true believers out there. Not to say that there isn't a lot of commercialism associated with Christmas, which there is, but I feel that as long as it doesn't become the focal point of the holiday, it's all just part of the fun.

Additionally, it's pretty funny to hear everyone try to act really hardcore and pretend they hate Christmas because of all the "fakeness" or the "consumerism." Can any of us honestly say that we don't enjoy receiving gifts? Is it really worth it to fight the system just because little kids tend to forget about their new toys (which would happen with or without Christmas gift exchanges, I might add)? Maybe the more things you dislike, the more mature you feel. Or maybe I just expected to see this topic fill up with holiday cheer and got disappointed by all the intelligent conversations

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

Well, different strokes for different folks, Kappa Not everyone can, or even needs to accept/appreciate rampant holiday consumerism, especially since it's about the religion rather than how many toys one gets. Then there're those people who put themselves into debt getting ready for christmas (credit cards! Free money! Yay!). Deplorable. At any rate that's not why I don't celebrate... non-christian here

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Do you think we're forever?

Quote (VomitCrotch @ 30th December 2005 01:11)

I agree with ZH ... sort of. I'm not going to quote my sources ... because I don't remember them, but I did some reading on the subject and I guess they found Jesus' birth was some time in the spring, but decided to celebrate it on the 25th in hopes to stop the pagans from partying. You know, since they already had the Christ rising bit in Easter for the spring.

Easter is the celebration of Christ rising methinks, somebody go ahead and correct me. But the Easterbunny/Egg deal is a carry over from the pagan traditions of Spring. Since they believed spring to be Earth's rebirth and renewal eggs and baby chicks and bunnies became icons of it. And I think there actually was a Saint Nicholas or something or other ... I dunno, try google, ZH.

But to contribute to the topic:
My thoughts on Christmas is that it's more than a religious holiday anymore. Sure, it once was, but if the Christians want it to be totally secular to christianity, then they lost their chance from not saving it from comercialism. Any more, I'd say it's a holiday for friends, family, cookies, loaded egg nog, all that happy crap and an excuse to splurge for a video ipod for your significant other so you can "borrow" it later on in the new year. As far as the whole "war on christmas" goes, honestly, I can understand the ACLU/ultra liberal stance. I did some visiting friends in New York over the summer and it is an incredibly divers place up there. Even Hasidic Jews were common. So with no giant dreidl to match the christmas tree (especially this year with Chanuka starting the same day as Christmas Day) I understand the up roar.

Meh, I don't agree with or understand the uproar. If someone wants to celebrate Christmas or say merry christmas or decorate christmas, it shouldn't be such a big deal and people really shouldn't be offiended. I'm not Christian or Jewish but I wouldn't be offended if someone said happy haunnakah or merry christmas, hell you could even say happy satan's day, I wouldn't care.

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

Quote (Kappa the Imp @ 30th December 2005 17:03)

Quote (Elena1999 @ 29th December 2005 00:00)

This, I believe, is also the reason why Jehova's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas because it was not the actual day Christ was born and they shun other holidays because they don't feel it's right to celebrate these things because you can't celebrate Jesus's actual birthday.

I'm pretty sure it actually has something to do with Jehova's Witnesses not being flippin' Christians at all.

What makes them not Christian? It was my understanding that they believed in God and Jesus Christ, how does that not make them Christian?

Sorry for not combining this with my other post R51. Won't happen again.

This post has been edited by Elena1999 on 31st December 2005 04:53

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

Quote (Elena1999 @ 30th December 2005 23:52)

What makes them not Christian? It was my understanding that they believed in God and Jesus Christ, how does that not make them Christian?

This is only partially true. Jehova's Witnesses do believe in the Christ, but have a very strange twist to Him. They do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate. Rather, they believe He was a reincarnation of an angel of some sort. This stems from the fact that the God they believe in is very contrary to the Christian God: He is not a Holy Trinity. The Jehova's Witnesses deny the existence of a Three-Bodied God, as they feel that this type of god is actually a form of polytheism that man has adopted through the influence of Satan. Additionally, but less importantly, they do not believe in the direct resurrection of Christ, but rather that He "re-materialized" on the third day, or was created by God all over again.

Another very important point to their system is that they believe that salvation comes through good works. This is clearly not a Christian belief as the staple of Christianity is salvation through Jesus Christ.

Even more, they don't believe in any type of hell or eternal damnation for the wicked.

In fact, there are more differences than I even expected, I could really go on and on. I think it's just safe to say that not only are they more of a cult than a religion, they shouldn't really be classified with Christianity at all. But I can totally understand your confusion, because at face value they do have a lot of similarities.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

Jesus isn't God incarnate either, or his son for that matter. He certainly was a prophet though, no dispute there. But whatever... different strokes

Still, I too do not understand why some folks need to get all offended over Christmas. Who are these people? If they're non-christians looking for a little inclusion then I don't think that's going to work making X-mas all neutral. I mean, you can change the name but it's still a christian thing any way you look at it, so why bother?

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Do you think we're forever?

Quote (Kappa the Imp @ 30th December 2005 22:52)

Quote (Elena1999 @ 30th December 2005 23:52)

What makes them not Christian? It was my understanding that they believed in God and Jesus Christ, how does that not make them Christian?

This is only partially true. Jehova's Witnesses do believe in the Christ, but have a very strange twist to Him. They do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate. Rather, they believe He was a reincarnation of an angel of some sort. This stems from the fact that the God they believe in is very contrary to the Christian God: He is not a Holy Trinity. The Jehova's Witnesses deny the existence of a Three-Bodied God, as they feel that this type of god is actually a form of polytheism that man has adopted through the influence of Satan. Additionally, but less importantly, they do not believe in the direct resurrection of Christ, but rather that He "re-materialized" on the third day, or was created by God all over again.

Another very important point to their system is that they believe that salvation comes through good works. This is clearly not a Christian belief as the staple of Christianity is salvation through Jesus Christ.

Even more, they don't believe in any type of hell or eternal damnation for the wicked.

In fact, there are more differences than I even expected, I could really go on and on. I think it's just safe to say that not only are they more of a cult than a religion, they shouldn't really be classified with Christianity at all. But I can totally understand your confusion, because at face value they do have a lot of similarities.

Hmm. Well, those are some differences but really most Christian religions are different from eachother. I say, if you believe in the Bible and you believe in Jesus and God (whether it's a 3 tiered being or not) you're Christian. The interesting thing I did notice was some of the minor similiarities to Mormonism, howeve, unlike most Christians believe about them, Mormons do not believe in salvation by works alone. They believe in Salvation by grace and works. Which makes sense to me because what would be the point of commandments if you're just going to break them all and be saved anyway? That's my thoughts on it.

This post has been edited by Elena1999 on 31st December 2005 19:47

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

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I love Christmas. What I don't love is a bunch of other religions getting pissy and making it offensive to say Merry Christmas anymore.

Happy Holidays, you whiners.

i love Chrismas, too. it's always an upbeat time of the year and we get our 4 or 5 cold days of the year around the Christmas season. i absolutely love the surprises of gift exchange (the weeks before Christmas, i always get to imagining other people's reactions to the gifts i have gotten for them), and even strangers seem to be friendlier around Christmas. but of course, the true reason for the season is the celebration of Christ's birth. of course, the original holiday was "yule," the pagan holiday in celebration of winter solstice that culminated in bacchanalian expressions of drunkenness and sexual orgy. also, nobody really knows when Christ's birth was. the original date, i believe, to celebrate the birth, was january 6. so it seems quite logical to replace a self-seeking and hedonistic pagan holiday with the feel-good celebration of the Greatest Gift from the point of view of the church.

Quote

Hmm. Well, those are some differences but really most Christian religions are different from eachother. I say, if you believe in the Bible and you believe in Jesus and God (whether it's a 3 tiered being or not) you're Christian. The interesting thing I did notice was some of the minor similiarities to Mormonism, howeve, unlike most Christians believe about them, Mormons do not believe in salvation by works alone. They believe in Salvation by grace and works. Which makes sense to me because what would be the point of commandments if you're just going to break them all and be saved anyway? That's my thoughts on it.

well, to be certain, the great majority of Christians don't take mormons to be Christians, either (jehovah's witnesses, mormons, and 7th day adventists are generally referred to as the "unholy trinity" of Christian cults, with even more bizarre cults like the branch davidians and Christian scientists not even being considered for Christian cult status). you see, it is indeed important to believe in the Bible to be Christian. but then, how can mormons say they accept the Bible, and yet believe in salvation by works and grace? the Bible is quite clear that we are saved by faith alone and that the only Way to the Father is through the Son. the point of the ten commandments and every other holy statute is that to follow them is unquestionably to make life better for yourself and for the pwople around you. imagine how the world would be if everyone followed Christian philosophy to the letter.


edit:

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PS: Jesus is beleived pisces, what do you think the fish is all about?

delightfully ironically ignorant. no, the fish has *nothing* to do with Jesus being believed to be pisces, rofl.

This post has been edited by gozaru~ on 3rd January 2006 18:29

'Just off the mark' would've done.

Moderator Edit

I agree. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 3rd January 2006 19:14

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Whether you take the doughnut hole as a blank space or as an entity unto itself is a purely metaphysical question and does not affect the taste of the doughnut one bit.

http://slightly-bitter.blog.co.uk

Mormons can't be christian because they believe in good works and grace? So my understanding of this is that to be Christian then it's not necessary, or acceptable, to be kind and helpful to fellow human beings... Huh. No wonder Christians are such badasses!

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Do you think we're forever?

Quote (gozaru~ @ 3rd January 2006 13:17)

well, to be certain, the great majority of Christians don't take mormons to be Christians, either (jehovah's witnesses, mormons, and 7th day adventists are generally referred to as the "unholy trinity" of Christian cults, with even more bizarre cults like the branch davidians and Christian scientists not even being considered for Christian cult status). you see, it is indeed important to believe in the Bible to be Christian. but then, how can mormons say they accept the Bible, and yet believe in salvation by works and grace? the Bible is quite clear that we are saved by faith alone and that the only Way to the Father is through the Son.

This was essentially going to be my next post. Plus some capitalization though.

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Mormons can't be christian because they believe in good works and grace? So my understanding of this is that to be Christian then it's not necessary, or acceptable, to be kind and helpful to fellow human beings... Huh. No wonder Christians are such badasses!

No, it's that Mormons believe that salvation comes from good works. Christians believe that no amount of works can justify the inherent evil of humans, and thus the grace of God alone through Jesus Christ is the only solution. It sounds like you already get this part though, you sarcastic dog, you.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

Quote (gozaru~ @ 3rd January 2006 18:17)

well, to be certain, the great majority of Christians don't take mormons to be Christians, either (jehovah's witnesses, mormons, and 7th day adventists are generally referred to as the "unholy trinity" of Christian cults,

Sevies are not Christian? Can someone explain this unholy trinity to me?

I mean come on we have Christmas services and believe in the holy trinity.

Quote (gozaru~ @ 3rd January 2006 11:17)

well, to be certain, the great majority of Christians don't take mormons to be Christians, either (jehovah's witnesses, mormons, and 7th day adventists are generally referred to as the "unholy trinity" of Christian cults, with even more bizarre cults like the branch davidians and Christian scientists not even being considered for Christian cult status). you see, it is indeed important to believe in the Bible to be Christian. but then, how can mormons say they accept the Bible, and yet believe in salvation by works and grace? the Bible is quite clear that we are saved by faith alone and that the only Way to the Father is through the Son. the point of the ten commandments and every other holy statute is that to follow them is unquestionably to make life better for yourself and for the pwople around you. imagine how the world would be if everyone followed Christian philosophy to the letter.


edit:

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PS: Jesus is beleived pisces, what do you think the fish is all about?

delightfully ironically ignorant. no, the fish has *nothing* to do with Jesus being believed to be pisces, rofl.

1. Unfortunately, that's not really an incentive to do good things. Not that I don't try but really, if all that matters is that I accept Jesus, then it really doesn't matter what I do and that's what I dislike about most branches of Christianity. There's no requirement to do good deeds, even small ones. Most people really don't care what happens to their fellow man as long as they are happy. I suppose believing in Christ might make you want to do those things and be like him, but there are plenty of people who believe, but don't and aren't and unforutnately they will fair off better than us non-believing folk which to me doesn't seem right.

2. So, if that's not the reason for the fish, then what is the reason for the fish?

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

Someone can feel free to blast me for "CHRISTMAS THOUGHTS INCLUDE CHRIST SO THIS IS ON TOPIC" but I don't care, I'm closing it anyway.

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"To create something great, you need the means to make a lot of really bad crap." - Kevin Kelly

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