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What I would like to attempt with this thread is to introduce scenarios that give choices that have moral relevance. I'll introduce a fairly low-importance scenario to start it off, and I'd like for you to respond with your reaction, and why. After a bit of discussion, someone can post another scenario, and discussion can begin anew.

Simple concept, right? Alright, let's begin.

You are beginning your senior year of high school, and have been randomly selected to be part of a five student group that will compile all seniors names into a basket and do a drawing to see which of the 200 seniors gets to park in the 150 space "senior parking lot" for the year.

Your friends, having heard you were chosen, ask you to hook them up. So, you do so for a few (let's say 5) of them, and do NOT include yourself. The other 145 spaces are completely randomly drawn.

Now, do you see this as loyalty to your friends, or cheating the system?

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 16th December 2005 14:09

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

So the point of this thread is to see how many people at the CoN have absolutely no concept of moral values whatsoever when expediency is more fun? I got into an argument with someone in chat over whether cheating and plagiarism were okay if you "had" to resort to those to get a good grade. I never imagined that someone could consider that a moral "dilemma", and this is another similar situation.

Of course it's wrong to unfairly interfere with a lottery system to benefit you, your friends, or anyone.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

I agree with Karasuman. I would never cheat a system to benefit myself or friends.

Quote (footbigmike @ 15th December 2005 20:28)

I agree with  Karasuman. I would never cheat a system to benefit myself or friends.

I totaly agree!



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It takes 2 people and a weapon
to commit a murder

Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is mystery,
today is a gift, thats why we call it the present.

I totally would.

Morality is such a non-term to me. There's only right, and right is judged by those in power. If I have the power to enforce the spoils system, damn right I will. Andrew Jackson did it, and I would in a heartbeat. I value my friends more than I do fairness.

Edit- I guess I need to clarify a bit.

Morality is a vague term based on values. Everybod has different values, so I don't use the term immoral. I'm generally not immoral, as people would say. I consider myself more a-moral. Like I said- People in power judge right from wrong then they turn that into laws. Not to say all laws ever enacted were good, or as some would say- moral. Different standards though. I'm sure Hitler saw no problem with the anti-semitism he was causing. Him being in power and making the laws was his RIGHT. and in Germany it was RIGHT. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a good thing. Most people's value system says- Genocide=Bad. To me, morals just don't exist. It isn't a term I like to use. Not to say I don't have values and an understanding of good and bad.

Although you might consider cheating the system- Bad- It's relative. I say it's good that I value friendship. Maybe it is bad. That doesn't mean it's gonna stop me from doing it. Because- F*** those guys. I'm not them, nor do I care about them.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 15th December 2005 20:59

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Right and Wrong are terms that are up for debate. What's right for you might be wrong for me and vice versa. Honestly? I would cheat the system. If I could benefit my friends in any way, shape or form, I would. Especially my friends, that they've repeatedly done the same for me in the past. For parking? It's nothing, I'm not robbing a bank nor am I killing anyone, so I see no problem with it at all.

In relation to what Karasuman said, in regards to cheating and plagiarism in school to obtain a good grade, again there, I have no qualms with it. In fact, cheating is what allowed me to pass my final exams during my last year of Highschool, allowing me to graduate. Benefits? I graduated. I got accepted into college, I was able to continue my education and go on with my life happily. Any negative results? Not a single one. No one was caught, no one was punished, no one suffered. The school-board and it's goverment division likely didn't suffer anything because I and most of my class cheated, and we're not losing any sleep over it.

Does that sound Immoral? Maybe by certain standards or by your own perceptions, but not by mine.

Not to make it sounds like "Well, everyone else does it, so it's ok", but, considering it's quite common for people-anyone, for that matter, to cheat the "system" in order to benefit themselves or people affliated with them, you have to stop and ask yourself why you shouldn't share in the same rewards. Because it's wrong? Obviously, if that's not enough incentive to stop the others, why would it be enough to stop you?

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Is it wrong: yes.

Would I do it: yes.

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

It is wrong and I wouldn't do it. Although I value my friends, I have to think how I would feel being the other people with 5 fewer chances of getting in to that parking lot. I also feel I shouldn't have to cheat to show value to my frieinds and if any of my friends got upset with me for not cheating then they aren't really that good of friends. For me to cheat for my friends would be selfish and for my friends to expect me to cheat for them would be selfish of them.

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Elena Indurain

Currently Playing: Suikoden II

Here's food for thought what about the other 4 members and all the friends they have. I guarrentee in that situation you wouldn't be doing it alone.

But rules is rules(as they in Australia). A fair person wouldn't always think of themselves and that what those friends are doing. Even though you're pulling out fixing a random competition isn't fair. Though alot of people won't lose sleep over that issue.

Quote

Is it wrong: yes.

Would I do it: yes.

Couldn't have said it any better than that.

Lotteries for such things are stupid. In a perfect world it would be based on the needs of each person, but since were not doing the "right" way, I'm gonna benefit all those I can [including myself if I can pull it off]

my reply to this is short and sweet (well perhaps not) as well. i believe if one can "work" the system to their benefit (or the benefit of friends for this example) without getting caught, then its all good.

To have the duplicity to "cheat" a system whether it is as trivial as a parking lottery or as complex as an upper echelon election maybe, is very admirable if you ask me. i may not like the one who did it, but i would highly admire the method of cunning.

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"The answer is, of course, that it would be best to be both loved and feared. But since the two rarely come together, anyone compelled to choose will find greater security in being feared than in being loved."
- Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince

If it's only for five people and a quarter of the seniors aren't going to get drawn (but ALL are unsure if they'll get drawn, like any good lottery), then I don't think it'd be that important to begin with... I'd probably do it, too, seeing as I'm an unscrupulous rogue whose moral line in the red ().

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It's gonna be a glorious day
I feel my luck can change

I wouldn't do it. My friends would just have to get over it. That's how I am.

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Dead Winter. A nice comic.

Of all the responses thus far, I think I enjoyed MogMaster's the most.

Kudos, MM, for explaining exactly why you would choose what you chose. I honestly got some insight when reading your post.




Ok, let's try a different scenario.

Your spouse is dying from a rare disease. A pharmacist in your town just recently discovered the cure for it, but is selling it for 10 times what it cost him to make it. He spends 500 dollars on supplies, and then sells the cure for 5,000 dollars. You take up money and save all you can, but only come up with 3,000. You beg the pharmacist to give you the cure for the 3,000 and he refuses, saying that he found the cure, and he is going to make money on it. Now, bearing all of this in mind, would you consider breaking in to the pharmacists house to get the cure? If the pharmacist defended it with his life, would you be prepared to kill him for the cure?

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 16th December 2005 13:31

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Quote

Your spouse is dying from a rare disease. A pharmacist in your town just recently discovered the cure for it, but is selling it for 10 times what it cost him to make it. He spends 500 dollars on supplies, and then sells the cure for 5,000 dollars. You take up money and save all you can, but only come up with 3,000. You beg the pharmacist to give you the cure for the 3,000 and he refuses, saying that he found the cure, and he is going to make money on it. Now, bearing all of this in mind, would you consider breaking in to the pharmacists house to get the cure? If the pharmacist defended it with his life, would you be prepared to kill him for the cure?

I would certainly break into the pharmacist's house in an attempt to steal the cure. There are situations in which the 'morality' of theft becomes ambiguous. Is it wrong to steal the guy's drug? Perhaps, but if the pharmacist were unwilling to, say, accept my credit for future payment, then I would have no problem trying to take the medicine. According to the morality that I follow, the pharmacist has moved beyond the point of being reasonable and will be responsible for the death of my spouse. His morality may tell him something else, but I naturally believe my morality to be superior.

Would I kill him to get it? In the heat of the moment, I might. It would be a much less defensible act, though. Even though I believe that the pharmacist in this situation is basically a murderer, I don't think that his immorality justifies a response in kind. (In the case of stealing the drug, at least my crime is much less severe than his; it could be said that the good is outweighing the bad.) Having said that, though, justice probably wouldn't be my primary concern and I doubt I'd be thinking rationally once the struggle had started.


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Always hopeful, yet discontent; he knows changes aren't permanent --
But change is!

I've heard this one before. And my answer has always been save my spouse. From a moral standpoint I believe it's worse to not do everything you can to save someone you care about's life then to steal. If the pharmacist defended it with his life, no I wouldn't kill him.

Would I leave money for the supplies once I had already stolen the cure? No, screw the stubborn bastard. I already had to resort to commiting a crime to save my wife's life, that's my payment right there.

Since I didn't weigh in on your lottery one, the answer is it wouldn't happen. My friends can get the same chance they would've gotten had someone they didn't know got picked to make the choices.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I would save my spouse by whatever means necessary. I would probalby feel horrible afterwards for killing somebody, but I would rather do that than have the death of my futre wife.

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Dead Winter. A nice comic.

Consider the Pharmacist, though. To the outside eye he appears an arrogant, selfish ass. But, maybe he has his reasons for being this way.

Maybe he went hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt reseraching this cure, and is desperately trying to make the money back now that he has the cure. He has his own family to worry about, so when you steal from him you are in essence taking food out of the mouth of his wife and any children he has.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 16th December 2005 16:39

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

My actions to this situation would depend on what my spouse was like. Would my spouse be happy living, knowing that I had to steal and possibly kill a person in order for her to live? I'm not sure I could shoulder someone with that sense of guilt. I wouldn't want her walking around thinking it was her fault that a man died. If it turned out that she was able to blame me for the situation, without placing any of the blame on herself, I would do it.

The above is assuming I absolutely had to kill the man to get the cure. Of course I would consider stealing it and I would be ready to kill him, but like I said it would depend.

This post has been edited by Rujuken on 16th December 2005 16:52

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-- You're Gonna Carry That Weight --

Sounds like an ironic twist of fate than anything else. Killing to save lives, hmm...

im not quite sure what to do in such a situation

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

I would try my best to reason with the man. If he gave me no options, I would indeed attempt to steal it. If he guarded it with his life I would not attempt to kill him. Obviously if he attacked me, I would defend myself.

In regards to his family, if he has not given me any options, such as giving me a loan or any other options, then I say it's time to be selfish and I'm going to put my family first. I'm sure there's some kind of of way we could come to an agreement if he tried.

If there really isn't another way then that's too bad. Of course if my spouse knew what was happening and told me not to go ahead with these actions, then I may not for reasons stated by Rujuken.

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'Let that be a lesson to all oppressive vegetable sellers.'

I would certainly do it. I'm sure I would value my spouse far more than some pharmacist (who is clearly not really that close to me if he won't take 3000 and a note for some credit).

Quote

Consider the Pharmacist, though. To the outside eye he appears an arrogant, selfish ass. But, maybe he has his reasons for being this way.

Maybe he went hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt reseraching this cure, and is desperately trying to make the money back now that he has the cure. He has his own family to worry about, so when you steal from him you are in essence taking food out of the mouth of his wife and any children he has.

Again, if he takes my 3000 and a note, that's 3000 closer to being out of debt. If he still wouldn't do a mutually beneficial deal then I would definitely steal the cure.

This post has been edited by Kane on 16th December 2005 18:14

Quote (Hamedo @ 16th December 2005 11:37)

Consider the Pharmacist, though.  To the outside eye he appears an arrogant, selfish ass.  But, maybe he has his reasons for being this way.

Maybe he went hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt reseraching this cure, and is desperately trying to make the money back now that he has the cure.  He has his own family to worry about, so when you steal from him you are in essence taking food out of the mouth of his wife and any children he has.

Enter the grey's into a black and white situation. Others have already responded in the way I would respond in regards to the pharmacist's situation.

But that's not really the point of the story. Stripping away the story behind the situation, the "what about this and that"'s the heart of the question is this: Would you resort to criminal activity in order to save the life of someone you care about.

I was first introduced to the question in a psychology class at age 17. I argued against a number of my classmates who believe they believed they were superior to me because they possesed "moral abosolutes" (or pretended to in order to impress the adult in the classroom). I believed then as I do now that moral absolutes are stupid. They are luxuries afforded to only those who are fortunate enough not to have them thrown into conflict. If you believe killing is wrong under any circumstances, what do you do when confronted with a man who has killed and will kill again and refuses to be taken alive. By failing to kill him, you have killed others and either way you lose.

If you care to, feel free to discuss the scenario at the end of my paragraph as the next discussion in this thread.

This post has been edited by The Ancient on 16th December 2005 19:00

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

I say, kill the stoopid pharmacist! He sounds like an asshole anyway, plus, love conquers all! I mean, if you really loved your spouse, then you wouldn't think twice right? And I agree with The Ancient: by failing to kill him you are effectively killing your own spouse, and your future kids, and memories.

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'Bastards, we may be, but clever are we.'
Thorn, FFIX

I'm encouraged by the good responses in here. Let's try another one.



You are a state trooper working a long, lonely stretch of highway in the middle of the night. You recieve a call for backup from a fellow officer not too far away, and rush to the scene. When you get there you find the officer, a friend of yours, on the ground in front of his patrol cruiser. He is bleeding from several bullet wounds in his chest, and is obviously dying. You run to your car and call for an ambulance, and then return to his side. He tells you through wet, weak whispers that the man he pulled over for driving erratically was the one that shot him. He describes the car to you, and tells you that the man sped off just a minute before you got to the scene.

So, what do you do? Do you stay with your friend, perhaps keeping him from dying alone? Or do you pursue the man who shot and possibly killed him?

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Simple. I follow the regulations, which are probably to put out the description of the suspect, and stay with the downed officer until further backup arrives. There's not that much chance of catching up, and all you'd do then is endanger yourself.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Yep. I'm with Del on this one. There probably is a regulation written for just such and occurance and it probably says stay with the dying man. Of course if I'm in a motion picture you better believe I'm goin after 'im!

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Forget protocol. I'm asking you what you would do, based on what you think is the right action to take.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Good questions, Hamedo.

#1- I would help my friends. I don't feel bad about helping 5 people out of 200, especially for something as trivial as a parking space.

#2- I would try to steal the cure. I'm a pacifist, though, so if push came to shove I wouldn't kill him. I agree with Rukujen on this one.

#3- Again, my pacifism would stop me from going on a revenge mission. Maybe if it was my friend's last request, I would go, but if he left it up to me I'd stay with him.

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Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots

Quote (Hamedo @ 16th December 2005 16:00)

Forget protocol. I'm asking you what you would do, based on what you think is the right action to take.

Well protocol and what I do go hand in hand in this case. Pretty much what Gears said, I wouldn't chase unless it was my dying friend's last wish.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"