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Moglvl99: I almost have no clue what you are saying... you don't like gays cause we're potentially violent? Huh? What about the majority of actual violent people and criminals? They're straight, just so you know. And if you've had a bad experience with "a gay" you should just get over it. One person isn't indicative of an entire group. For instance, because I think the Pope is a moron does not mean all christians are morons.

Put up your dukes!

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Do you think we're forever?

This post took some thought because this is a very sensitive subject. I agree with a lot of the posts here. I think that they should be allowed to have relationships, marry, and exist as human beings. I do believe however, gays/lesbians have "extra" rights which i will explain. For example, if a gay/lesbian wears a shirt to school thats says "Gay Pride" its a statement. If I wear a shirt that says "Straight Pride" I'm being predjudice or hatefull. That was an actuall problem in my highschool and in the end, no one could wear any "pride" shirts which really sucked because that wasnt our goal. We just wanted the right to express ourselves as they were. This may sound a little close minded, but its one of my beliefs; I'll tolerate you but it doesn't mean I have to like you.

One of my friends brought up a really good point. Why are lesbians more socially accepted but gays aren't?

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One person isn't indicative of an entire group. For instance, because I think the Pope is a moron does not mean all christians are morons.

You rock .

This post has been edited by ramza_beoulve on 4th December 2005 03:25

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A hero is somone who steps up when everyone else backs down.

Your greatest adversary hides inside your mirror.

Quote (Moglv99 @ 3rd December 2005 21:02)

I used to think that its okay, but the truth its that gay people are not normal people. After a gay is chasing you, bothers you, you can think different. I had some problems with gay people,( I even used violence...sometimes just talk doesn't work..) so I can say by experience that they are sick. Most of them can kill someone in a relationship or just for jealously, or they have delirium persecution...they can be dangerous passional criminals...I wouldn't speak generally, but that its the truth. They can be dangerous for society, its like have a mad person on the loose...well everyone here its a potential criminal.

Okay. You know, straight people have the potential to "chase you, bother you" and "can kill someone in a relationship." Just the same as decent church-going ladies, old male priests, your high school teacher, anyone. Even your mom. Anyone.

So really, you're saying that gay people ARE "normal", because like everyone, they can be good or bad, nice or mean, balanced or imbalanced, or somewhere in between.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Positive Quotes from the thread:

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1.  For some reason in my economics class, we got on the subject of gay seagulls. It happens. Also he mentioned gay ducks. They try to mount each other, but don't do terribly well. A female will try and get some from them, and when she finally does, she gets two mates, higher chance of the female getting pregnant. Progates the species better.
Also there were two gay penguins in the Central Park Zoo in New York, I remember hearing them break up. But now If i recall, there's a pair lesbian penguins.
Lastly to strikerbolt...butch lesbians. Not hot.
Sidenote: I think I heard the first line in the Bible was mistranslated. I think it was 'In a begining...

2.  I beleive that not every human being on earth is meant to reproduce and have children. If we all did that, there'd be a heck of a lot of overcrowding, wouldn't there? It'd be worse than it is now. Not all straight humans are meant to have children either, and not all reproduce. There is also homosexuality among the animals, as Kyle mentioned. There's a zoo that has a recent example with penguins, where the males mated together, and ignored the females.

3.  just because your sexual preference is different doesn't make you a monster.

4.  This is directed at all the guys in here posting stuff like "Gays are fine, as long as they keep their dirty gay hands off of me and dont hit on me!".
Get over yourselves. I've been hit on a few times, and it's not that big a deal. Take it as a compliment and shrug it off and go on. A guy finding you attractive is really no different than a girl finding you attractive.

5.  Infiltrate the government and take over the western world? Oh but that IS part of my master plan! 


6.  Here's my personal opinion:
Homosexual people and bisexual people are all and the same as a hetrosexual person, take it or leave it. We were all created by the same person, God, and therefore, homosexuality and bisexuality can't be a "sin", like some people believe it is. So, since homosexual people are just like hetrosexual people, then they should be able to get married and adopt like any "normal" couple would do.
Growing up with Christian beliefs, I've always been told that homosexual acts were an act against God, but I've grown to some how realise that a homosexual relationship is no different than a hetrosexual relationship. I feel like, in a relationship, that sexual orientation does not matter as long as there is love.
I've also learned this: God will FORGIVE you, if you are indeed a homosexual or a bisexual, only if you choose to accept him. So, homosexuals and bisexuals who choose to live for God, and love him will not "go to Hell" like all of these other people might say. If you choose God, why would he send you down there, anyway? 
I'll admit, as I've gotten older, I've considered myself bisexual (I have had a boyfriend, and two girlfriends, and the relationships did get a little more than serious, thank you all very much). And all of you "homophobic" people can hate me, and plagerise me as much as you like, but I'm not gonna care, because it won't change my orientation, and your words aren't going to hurt anyway.
Anyway... My rambling probably got everything off topic and jumbled anyway. I'm just 16, "what do I know about homosexual views", huh? I'll shut up, now... 

Response 1: See, homosexuality is natural. Butch Lesbians? Your just not looking in all the right places . That proves my point that people shouldn't use the bible as a weapon or shield. (hate it when politics do that...)
Response 2: That goes hand in hand with my adoption rates comment. And my homosexuality is natural comment
Response 3: I don't understand why people dont get that... One of the few perspectives I can't see through
Response 4: My sister said the same thing. You both have a point. Now if someone would hit on me... I guess it would work better If i left the house once in awhile.
Response 5: ...hmm, we both have the same master plan... I'll have to reevaluate my strategies, and how secret i keep it...
Response 6: Good for you for being open about this. Out of my group of friends, I'm the only atheist. Everyone else is Catholic. Except for one other: I don't know his religion. However, they all have the same view as me: Let them have it and be done with it... Though I do remember in my Junior US History class where someone talked for 5 minutes about how gay marriage was wrong, and used the bible as a shield.
And you don't have to degrade youself because of age. Your on topic
I'm not going to go into the negative comments. I'll respect your point of view

A few comments I forgot to mention: IMO marriage rates would go up and divorce rates would go down if they permitted gay marraige. I need to rerun my numbers just to be sure though... and I'm not sure if the bible says "...Love is between a Man and a Woman..."
P.S. thx for the support Auragaea

I also have a mini-story: In the town where my school is, when the issue of gay marriage came up, a group of "adults" got together and put an anti-gay truck togetehr and started patrolling around town. It was based on religion. They became some of the most commonly hated people in the town. Businesses did not want the truck in their parking lot, neither did the apartment landlords where my sister lives. Our Nazi-Superattendant wouldn't let them on the school grounds, which did get him some respect since earning that title. Good choice on his part. However, they still were within eyeshot of all the businesses, school, and residential area. Several times my father rolled down the window to shout "GO HOME."
Funniest part: After eating out at KFC, we left the building to see the truck and people out there. Some people I know from school (one of the males was wearing a Bra and no shirt for some reason) walked right up to them. The males held hands with each other and the females held hands with each other, just to piss them off. There was some fowl language, and my dad called them on that. He supported what they were doing, just not the cuss words.

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

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Neon Heart wrote:  Growing up with Christian beliefs, I've always been told that homosexual acts were an act against God, but I've grown to some how realise that a homosexual relationship is no different than a hetrosexual relationship. I feel like, in a relationship, that sexual orientation does not matter as long as there is love.

I've also learned this: God will FORGIVE you, if you are indeed a homosexual or a bisexual, only if you choose to accept him. So, homosexuals and bisexuals who choose to live for God, and love him will not "go to Hell" like all of these other people might say. If you choose God, why would he send you down there, anyway? 

Um, what denomination did you grow up in, again?

If you're going to go by what the Bible says, and invoke the "God won't send me to Hell" bit, then make sure you know what you're talking about.

God doesn't condemn homosexuality?

Leviticus 18:22 states: "Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 states: "If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death...."

Romans 1:26-27 states: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 states: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."



The "biblical" view is pretty clear cut. In the Church's eyes, homosexuality is a perversion of nature. An abomination before God. It works outside of His plan for harmony and balance in nature.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 5th December 2005 21:54

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~Pacifist Badge, 1978

I know! That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to tell my brother. The bible expects everyone to act the same otherwise we won’t go to heaven. According to the bible, we have to follow God’s rules before we can get to heaven and that isn’t right at all. This is the reason why I’m a semi-Christian. I’m not an Atheist because I do believe there’s a God, but I don’t believe in the bible at all. I just hate it when people live their lives according to the book a person wrote. And some things just don’t add up in the bible. First of all, dinosaurs. We have proof that dinosaurs exist, but they are mentioned nowhere in the bible. You’d at least think they would mention something about beasts that savage and tall. Second, other humans. Yeah, we’ve heard the story Adam and Eve and their children, but the bible never mentions how other people came to earth. Third, the 10 commandments. Really, all the 10 commandments can be basically turned into 1 statement: Thou shalt not steal. Really, every other sin is a variation of theft (learned that from “The Kite Runner”). If the bible is so correct, then why would Moses instruct us of the sin of theft 10 times?

So what is the bible saying? Because someone loves someone of the same gender as themselves, they are suddenly going to hell? Aren’t they human also? This is the same as racism. Just because my skin color is different from someone else, I deserve to be a slave to someone or superior to another?

Moderator Edit

Just for the record, we're not going to get any further in to perceived or actual inconsistencies or omissions from the bible. This one slides because it illustrates the poster's point specifically, just like the one above it. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 5th December 2005 17:21

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And don't drive your car off a cliff like I did. Girl, no man is worth 10 points on your license.

well, a lot of you don't want to see my post in this thread, but i'm just going to clear up a few misconceptions here. first, and foremore, i would like to extend thanks to hamedo for posting those Bible verses; it has been said in this thread:

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ou can't really use the bible as a weapon, because there are translational errors, and it was written by man. Man is not perfect, man is fallable. we make mistakes. If you quote "love is between a man and a woman" I can counterquote "Love thy neighbor"

ignoring the obvious caharacterisation of the ongoing discussion on how privileged homosexuals should really need to be as a war (by implication, with a "right" and
wrong" side), realise that theologians and Bible scholars have known for ever so many years that the Bible was not written originally in english. so what, then, is done? the Bible, like any other translated work, can be studied succinctly in its original language. we can do that here: from leviticus 18:22, the hebrew is "v'et zachar lo tishkav mishk'vey eeshah toavah he." so, "and with a male, thou shalt not lay the laying of a woman." it's pretty explicit there -- don't sex with guys. "love thy neighbour," of course, is not liscence to disregard the rest of the Bible and go have sex with your same-sex neighbour.

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Homosexual people and bisexual people are all and the same as a hetrosexual person, take it or leave it. We were all created by the same person, God, and therefore, homosexuality and bisexuality can't be a "sin", like some people believe it is.

this, of course, is exactly equivalent to saying "well, i was created by God, and i have urges to murder young children...so murdering young children can't be a sin, regardless of whether 'some people' believe it is!"

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May I just say...same-sex couples adopt HIV postive children. Good luck finding a heterosexual couple that'd be willing to do that.

could you possibly be any less serious? i know tons upon tons of same-sex couples that adopt all sorts of special-needs children ranging from md kids who won't make it past 10 to kids with severe chemical imbalances in their brains to, indeed, kids with aids.

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Hey, at least they'll have two (loving) parents (which can't be said of for a lot of children in this country).

ibid. you can't honestly believe that homosexual couples are patently problem-free, while hetero couples are doomed to bring their kids up on the blood-stained battlefield of contention and strife, can you? the nchs found in 1995 that "children growing up in traditional, two parent [sic] families have fewer emotional, behavioral, and academic problems” than those in any other situation -- including with a homosexual couple, or a hetero, non-traditional couple (like they have extra partners), or in a divorce situation, or single parent, of whatever. but we can see quite clearly here that apparently homosexual unions have not the cure-all to negative rearing environments for children that you prescribe to them.

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Also, doesn't the constitution say that all men are created equal? so why deprive our fellow people of their natrual born rights?

no matter how pleasurable, the constitution does not protect one's right to install cameras in the junior high girls' shower and jack off watching them in one's coaches' office. it is not a "natural-born right" to have sex with another man.

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or some reason in my economics class, we got on the subject of gay seagulls. It happens...Also there were two gay penguins in the Central Park Zoo in New York, I remember hearing them break up. But now If i recall, there's a pair lesbian penguins.

bad science? i'm going to have to call you on that. animals have *never* been known to exhibit homosexual pair-bonding in the wild. that is, they will try to have sex with each other for some reason (there are plenty of theories out there to choose from, the most reliable and sensible of which deal with the animals' need to fulfill their genetic compulsion to have sex), but will *never* couple. animals in captivity, on the other hand (like your zoobound penguins) have been known to form extremely irregular homosexual pairs. this is blamed, quite usually (and incidentally), on a psychological disorder brought about by the conditions of stress imposed upon the animals by their condition of captivity. similarly, it will be interesting to note that male puppies who have never had contact with a female while growing up -- that is, they have been isolated with other male puppies their entire lives -- will not try to mount females. instead, they will try to mount *males* to satisfy their desire to screw -- as they have been doing their whole lives. animals, then, do what they know. there is no comparison between animal homosexual behaviour and the homosexual behaviour observed in the human species. (it should be noted here that, naturally, it is just as easy to train an animals to know only sex with humans. if a human wishes to rear a puppy for sexual pleasure, who are we to stop them? God made us all the same...if the pup is trying to have sex with humans, anyway, then it's just fine and proper, isn't it?)

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Sidenote: I think I heard the first line in the Bible was mistranslated. I think it was 'In a begining...

we have, i should think, an off-topic snippet aimed at discrediting the Bible. the phrase is "re'shith," which means invariably "the first of its kind" (it is used for firstborn, first fruits); we are dealing with the exclusive Beginning here.

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Ultimately, they all suck.

a monarchy with a perfectly good and just leader would be the most ideal form of government.

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I believe it's more than a bit hypocritical when politicians single out gays in that regard, but refuse to acknowledge the straight men and women who've already tarnished the "sanctity" of marriage.

as surely as there is a difference between mixing rotten apples with apples and oranges with apples, there is a difference between sinful individuals mocking their own marriages with affiars and making a farce of marriage in whole through drastic and unsupposrted (at least by the majority) public policy measures.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 6th December 2005 02:36

I'm surprised by how many people think homosexuality is a choice. All of the homosexual people I know feel that they were born that way. They think they realized somewhere along the way they were the way they were. I don't anyone who ever made the choice to become homosexual.

I fully support gay marriage. It comes down to a civil rights issue for me. Why can't homosexuals have the same rights as everyone else? Until everyone's allowed to be happy we're doing something wrong.

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Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots

So the Bible preaches against it? Big deal. The bible preaches against a lot of things, contradicts itself and guess what guys? It was written easily 2000 years ago. That's a long friggin' time. Things have changed since then, we're a bit smarter than we used to be.

So, does being homosexual make you any less of a person? No. Does it harm anyone? No. It might be offensive to someone who's a bit uptight or uncomfortable with the subject, but that can be respected without making them seem like pedophile monsters. So, if we can marry, why not let them? Does it REALLY change your life that much that it makes a difference?

You're not going to die because homosexuals can suddenly get married. God isn't going to strike down with his righteous fury for letting it happen, if he was going to do that for ANYTHING, it would probably be for the entire 80's decade. What they hell were they thinking with those pants!?

At any rate, the way I see it, it's harmless. They aren't killing anyone, hurting anyone or getting in anyone's way. They just want to be married and have people acknowledge their love. Let 'em have it I say.

In return? I want my own parade.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

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Dragon Fire wrote:   It was written easily 2000 years ago. That's a long friggin' time. Things have changed since then, we're a bit smarter than we used to be

Have morals changed in that timeframe? Of course not. Your jab at the Bible for being antiquidated is baseless.

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Dragon Fire wrote:  So, does being homosexual make you any less of a person?

Of course it doesn't. I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest that it does. Don't make up strawman arguments and red herrings, DF. No one is pursuing this line of thought except you.

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Dragon Fire wrote:  Does it harm anyone?

A resounding yes. It oftentimes hurts the families of the ones "coming out", sometimes creating irreparable rifts in families. Not to mention that it substantially raises the individual's chances to contract HIV.

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Dragon Fire wrote:  ...but that can be respected without making them seem like pedophile monsters

Please. More strawmen to go on your fire. No one in here is calling homosexuality a gateway to pedophilia. Again, you are the only one bringing up this argument.

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Dragon Fire wrote:  God isn't going to strike down with his righteous fury for letting it happen

Um... ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah??? Because that was pretty much exactly what you are saying would "never happen". I'm not saying that something like that could or should ever happen again, but it did at one time.

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Dragon Fire wrote:  They just want to be married and have people acknowledge their love

No one has a problem acknowledging their love. If that was the only issue, then the homosexual community wouldn't have much to complain about.

The addition of marriage rights is what's at stake here. I'm not against people living their lives however they want to, be it a lifestyle of drugs, homosexuality, or living in a monastary and praying 20 hours a day. Do what makes you happy.

I'm fine with gay rights, etc., what concerns me is the "gay rights movement" trampling on the rights of others. Namely, the rights of churches and other institutions to NOT perform gay marriages, or the right to freedom of speech. Gays should have the freedom to be gay, live together, whatever, just as long as they don't restrict the freedoms of straights and religious groups, with oppressive anti-discrimination laws.

This post has been edited by Hamedo on 6th December 2005 13:36

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Are gay people trying to get the right to be married in churches? I know a few are against that part specifically, but from what I've read, gay people just want the right to be married period. You can also be married by a justice of the peace, or many other religions aside from Christianity. I think a lot of gay couples would be happy to be told that they could be married by a justice of the peace. It's a lot easier and cheaper than traditional ways, anyway.

Morals have changed since 2000 years ago. We're not all hung up on the uber-Christian morals anymore. You don't get stoned for adultery or have to wear a scarlet A, women have rights and freedoms and aren't second class citizens to their husbands/fathers. Every culture has had some changes in their morals. One example is how children are raised; you used to be able to beat your children as much as you wanted, and get them working by age 8 or so doing as much labour as they could. Now, that's frowned down upon, as children are delicate and special. And spoiled, in most cases. Not that I'm for child beating, of course. But, that's one example of how morals have changed.

This post has been edited by Elena99 on 6th December 2005 18:35

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

You are discussing situational ethics, Elena. Not morals.

Do we stone people for adultery? No. Does that mean that adultery is a morally good thing nowadays? No. The public response to it has changed, but the behaviour is still immoral.

Concerning rights and freedoms, the New Testament portion of the Bible vindicates women just the same as it does men. Women are not morally inferior to men, and the Bible has never said as much.

You bring up the punishment of children as an example of a change in morals, but this is an erroneous claim. The punishment of children is in no way a moral issue. Punishment is a response/consequence to an action that a child has taken. This falls into the same vien as your stoning comment. You are focusing on how punishments for actions have changed, and then calling that a change of morals. That is simply not the case.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Interesting, this thread is becoming closer to an argument about the bible than a discussion about homosexuality... (sorry for being off topic[?])

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Gomen... read latest post from me for clarity

This post has been edited by strikerbolt on 7th December 2005 00:19

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

I disagree. The discussion has flowed into a question of morality at this point. That corellates directly to homosexuality, don't you think?



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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

Morals are in the eye of the beholder. . The problem I have with morals are everyone has their own set. Alot of people agree on a set because of their religion or culture or whatever, but that's still a load of crap.

If you find homosexuality immoral, it's because you're buying into the idea. Nobody is forcing morals upon you.

Example- While some people INDEED find that hitting your children is "immoral" that in no way means that everyone thinks that way. Just like some people don't consider adultry immoral. There's no given set of morals for any two individuals, and if you buy into that whole idea of whats socially acceptable, then thats good for you, but it's not a path I'm walking.

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Edit- Put society instead of Individual. Whoops. It was a big contridiction.

This post has been edited by MogMaster on 6th December 2005 22:07

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

So what's the alternative? Anarchy? Freedom from any code of ethics other than one's own?

A person's own morals are self serving. The man who cheats on his wife convinces himself that he is not a bad person regardless, and thus he is not an immoral person. The woman who sells herself on the streetcorner is doing so to put food on the table, so that doesn't make her actions immoral. That sounds like exactly what you are saying, Mogmaster.... that morals are all relative. I say that morals, left to each of us indivually, become self serving, and are ever changing to make us feel better about the less honorable actions that we take.

Some type of moral code is needed in society. Desperately. Following a set of morals and ethics, be they dictated from a religion or whatever, doesn't mean you are buying into a "herd" mentality... it means you are giving your life a compass. A moral compass.

For the sake of keeping this thread on topic with homosexuality, I'll discontinue my rant now. If anyone wants to discuss it further, I'd be happy to take it to PM.

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Join the Army, see the world, meet interesting people - and kill them.

~Pacifist Badge, 1978

I think it may be getting a little too heated in here...

Sorry gozaru~, but my sister is currently caring for a maybe (too young for a proper blood test) HIV postive infant (brother-in-law's niece. The mother was on drugs and pretty irresponsible, my sister's taking care of her and considering adoption.) I was talking to her about it on Thanksgiving, she was telling me that she was considering giving it up for adoption. The people at the adoption...place (forgot the name of the place) said that prospective parents don't really want baby with a (possible) death sentence. They want a child that they can watch grow up.

Though as you said, there are plenty of heterosexal couples that take in disadvantaged children, they have the choice/opportunity to concieve. Homosexual couples do not.

Some parts of the Bible are too antiquicated, and we ignore some stuff about the Bible. Working on the Sabbath (Sunday) was a hellworthy sin once right? The Bible is the basis of most of Western Society laws...and it does have a part in a person's moral compass. Morality is a deeply personal thing. No one else's morals should be placed on me, and I can't place my morals on other people.

Man, I getting kinda lost, morality and the like are not my cup of tea. If this gets to taxes or something like that, give me a ring, please dear reader?

(Sorry if I confused someone. I'm a bit too.)

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Really Random Quote of the Day: "Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war." - Richard M. Nixon

So if you're done reading this, you know I have nothing to say and you've wasted your time. Thank you come again.

People enough about bashing the bible. God loves you even if you are homosexual, is it a sin? To be honest I don't care. And you heard it from a Christian. Why everyone has an issue they are struggling with and a homosexual has every right to worship as an adulterer, a murderer etc. And my church is full of broken people who act like the act never happened. But no homosexuals, that's one way how homophobia is affecting the world, its making the churches look more hypocritical because they'll take in hypocrites but not homosexuals who have the guts to be open about it and it's a real shame homophobia is preventing that.

Last time I read the Bible Christ died for everyone, that includes homosexuals. Everyone is not perfect and pains me when people bash homosexuals(even when they may be innocent in many other areas).

If anyone wants to debate theology then the pm function works.

Sorry, I didn't get to finish my post earlier. The bell rang and I hit add reply in a hurry I didn't get a chance to proofread it, or reexamine earlier discussions. Gomen.

I agree with MogMaster/Kylerocks and Hamedo on this morality issue. Generally, except those psychopaths that do completley immoral things, Society has rules of immorality (i.e. killing is bad, rape is bad, etc.). Its the specific morals that define people. In this case, because this is a very tempermental subject with equivelant Yes and No globally, general morals cannot effectively apply to the rules of homosexuals. Its the spefcific morals doing the battle on the homosexual issue (btw the legal battle here is for legal marriage. I remember something about marriage applying to it being recognized by community and state, but Can't remember the full story). However, more of my agreement goes with Kylerocks's statement. All IMO btw.

Kylerocks: wow, that sucks... Speaking of morals, IMO that seems immoral right there what the adoption ppl are doing. They are thinking one-sidedly about the end consumer than the child herself. Thats like saying: Because this child's gonna die, we are not going to give it a second chance, even though your willing to and can't pay for it.
I wish you, your sister, and the child good luck in the future.

This post has been edited by strikerbolt on 7th December 2005 00:21

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Neneko is Neneko because Neneko couldn't be Neneko if Neneko wasn't Neneko!
--as quoted from Neneko, Mahoraba {Heartful Days}

I can stab a man with a thick paperback book thru the ribcage.

So being gay increases chances of contracting HIV, Hamedo? I would think unprotected sex to bear that trait... the larger part of the gay population understands this, thank you very much.

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Do you think we're forever?

Quote (ultimage @ 7th December 2005 02:58)

So being gay increases chances of contracting HIV, Hamedo? I would think unprotected sex to bear that trait... the larger part of the gay population understands this, thank you very much.

The majority of AIDS victims in the United States are gay men. There is no getting around the fact that you have a higher chance of contracting HIV if you sleep with a gay man than you do from any other segment of the population. Also, unprotected anal intercourse is more likely to result in transmission of HIV than any other kind of unprotected sex--and that's probably why so many AIDS patients are gay men. Even protected anal intercourse is more dangerous than other kinds of protected intercourse because the condom is more likely to malfunction. Being a gay man does put you at higher risk for contracting HIV for two reasons: your partner is more likely to be HIV positive, and your preferred method of intercourse is more likely to result in transmission.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

Quote (Dragon_Fire @ 1st December 2005 17:13)

I really don't see anything wrong with it, as long as it's not forced upon me, which is basically my only rule. You can be as openly gay as you want, just don't try to shove it down my throat.

Amen, brother.

Also, I hate homophobia. 'Oooh, let's ban gay marriage because everybody says it's wrong.We must listen to the church because they say it's a sin.' SO WHAT?!? If they want to get married, they have as much right to as anybody else does. It's called "freedom of choice."

Moderator Edit

Awkward outburst removed for being a bit too inflammatory, thanks. -R51

Anyway, myself, I'm not homophobic. When I was younger, I had stupid biased opinions about gays, too, but I got older, and as I got older, I became smarter. Gays have feelings like the rest of us, they live normal lives like the rest of us, they breathe like the rest of us, they pollute the air by using cars and doing other things that add pollutants to the air just like the rest of us (excuse me, enviromental rant), and they are just as well educated as any of us. I believe that we should treat them like human beings and allow them to have the same freedoms that the rest of us have.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 7th December 2005 20:38

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"No matter what happens, I will always be with you... forever." ---- Pocahontas, Pocahontas

"Only those who are already at the top are rewarded without trying."----- Delita Hyral, Final Fantasy Tactics

http://www.ffshrine.org/fft/fft-midi/1-42-back_fire01.mid ---- My favorite FFT battle song

Quote (Hamedo @ 6th December 2005 17:17)

Some type of moral code is needed in society.  Desperately.

I'll swing this back around to homosexuality if you don't mind.

I think that we can agree that a nation's policy on governing morality should be reflective solely on the majority of the population's ethics in regards to that subject. We all belive in Democracy don't we?

I'll also put forward the statement that the federal government's responsibilty in governing morals belongs in the criminal justice system. Basically we as a country decide if something is moral or immoral and then if immoral make it illegal to do so. We even have different degrees of punishment for different degrees of immorality. Cheating on your taxes(slightly immoral) carries a fine or a minimal jail sentence, Murder(highly immoral) carries at minimum a long jail sentence.

So where am I going with this. Here is my issue in regards to sexuality. We have decided as a nation that it IS NOT illegal to be homosexual. Therefore as a matter of national policy it is not immoral to be homosexual either. That is, from a governmental standpoint.

Then why is a marraige license which is a government document not awarded to homosexuals. It's nonsense and it's a way for the federal government to circumvent a system that has been set in place to specifically prevent interference in social issues it doesn't belong meddling in. It was warned against by the founding fathers of the nation. But it's not the first time we've seen it.

Almost 150 years ago, we as a nation decided it was immoral to hold men as slaves. At this time, it was made illegal to do so. A nation fought, was reformed and the winning side dictated morality on this issue. Soon afterwards a way was found to circumvent this law by removing rights from blacks. It wasn't "illegal" to be black persay, nor was it immoral to be black as decided by our nation, but Jim Crow laws were enacted to restrict the rights of blacks regardless, not through the legal system, but through other means.

This time around it's a little more frightening. It's the federal government who is the culprit rather than local governments around the south. And it is special interest groups dictating public policy rather than the true will of the nation...

Apologies to you non US-citizens out there, my little speech doesn't affect you as much.

This post has been edited by The Ancient on 7th December 2005 19:44

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Nearly everyone says the same thing in these kinds of discussions.

The whole issue tires me, so I'm going to keep this short.

Gay Rights is an exaggeration, I have never heard a good reason for gay marriage, and I'm tired of being called a homophobe or a gay-basher because I disagree with it.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Quote (The Ancient @ 7th December 2005 14:44)

I think that we can agree that a nation's policy on governing morality should be reflective solely on the majority of the population's ethics in regards to that subject. We all belive in Democracy don't we?

Our government also serves to protect the rights of the minorities from the whims of the majority. Judicial and legislative decisions are not meant to simply reenforce the will of the majority--there are other principles behind them, such as the idea that all people have certain rights. If things worked the way you want them to, blacks would be prohibited from living in certain neighborhoods in a lot of Southern states--including on the property that Dubya currently owns. Laws to that effect were struck down to protect the rights of the minority--in this case, blacks--from the preferences of the majority--in this case, damn near everyone else.

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I'll also put forward the statement that the federal government's responsibilty in governing morals belongs in the criminal justice system.  Basically we as a country decide if something is moral or immoral and then if immoral make it illegal to do so.  We even have different degrees of punishment for different degrees of immorality.  Cheating on your taxes(slightly immoral) carries a fine or a minimal jail sentence, Murder(highly immoral) carries at minimum a long jail sentence.

Murder is not illegal because it is immoral. Murder is illegal because we as a society have agreed that, in order to function, we can't have people going around killing each other. Same thing goes for the vast majority of other crimes. Morality has nothing to do with most laws. Laws that are written solely due to a moral belief are usually described as "blue laws." Examples include the recently-changed Pennsylvania law that liquor can't be sold on Sundays and recently-overturned laws criminalizing homosexual sex in other states.

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So where am I going with this.  Here is my issue in regards to sexuality.  We have decided as a nation that it IS NOT illegal to be homosexual.  Therefore as a matter of national policy it is not immoral to be homosexual either.  That is, from a governmental standpoint.

That's just stupid. There are a lot of things that are immoral that aren't illegal. It isn't illegal to cheat on your spouse, but it's certainly immoral to do so.

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Then why is a marraige license which is a government document not awarded to homosexuals.  It's nonsense and it's a way for the federal government to circumvent a system that has been set in place to specifically prevent interference in social issues it doesn't belong meddling in.  It was warned against by the founding fathers of the nation.  But it's not the first time we've seen it.

This is a good point, but you make it badly. Nothing has ever or will ever stop the government from meddling in social issues. The government is a body of people that responds to the will of those who vote it into power. Of course laws are going to be reflective of "social issues."

Most of the rest of your argument is similarly flawed. Besides, if the laws regarding homosexuality really reflected the will of the people, there would be no gay marriage, and it's questionable whether most states would even keep gay sex decriminalized. In case you haven't noticed, the raw numbers indicate that a majority of Americans disapprove of gay marriage, and a majority of citizens of many states, especially in the "Bible belt", think that homosexual intercourse should be a criminal offense akin to pedophilia. If we put it to a simple vote, gay marriage would be deemed immoral and therefore illegal according to your argument.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

Just minor little points.

Anti-slavery setiments have been around since Ancient Greece (Stoics?) Yet only in the 19th century did people start getting rid of it for the most part. Social changes on this level only happen when the people get fed up with it. Popular opinion in the 19th century America was fairly divided. The South's (inefficent) economy relied on slavery. Can't pick crops and make a good profit without free labor. Northern families had a whole mess of kids. Southerners bought slaves.

Popular opinion in America is still against gay marriage/civil unions and the like, so it may take awhile. But homosexuals tend to have higher incomes. Higher incomes=more politcal 'oomph'.

Also, homosexuals aren't treated as bad as in other countries. A week ago or something, in the UAE (United Arab Emerates) there was basically a police raid in a hotel. People were taken to prison. Homosexuality is illegal in the UAE. I think it's the same in Iran and Saudi Arabia. I know at least Saudi Arabia has a 'morality police' who beat women for showing too much ankle.

Not saying that that's good or bad...but just saying what westerner homosexuals have it pretty good. No marriage/unions suck, but getting imprisioned or killed is far worse.

But then again, we've got idiots that tie people to the back of their trucks and drag them around town. But that's why we have the justice system.

I wonder how people from other counties see America's homophobia quandry.

This post has been edited by Kylerocks on 7th December 2005 21:40

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Really Random Quote of the Day: "Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war." - Richard M. Nixon

So if you're done reading this, you know I have nothing to say and you've wasted your time. Thank you come again.

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 7th December 2005 14:54)

Gay Rights is an exaggeration, I have never heard a good reason for gay marriage

This has and always will be one of the poorest arguments on any issue. I have never heard a good reason why Dark Paladin should be afforded the same rights as everyone else in this nation. I hope you can follow what I'm doing here.

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In case you haven't noticed, the raw numbers indicate that a majority of Americans disapprove of gay marriage, and a majority of citizens of many states, especially in the "Bible belt", think that homosexual intercourse should be a criminal offense akin to pedophilia.

I'm going to skip most of what you said because there is no point in arguing it, it's little more than opinion and semantics. However here I find question with your "numbers". I think most of the nation(as reflected by this thread I might add) is ok with the concept of homosexuality and believes in their fair treatment. However in the case of gay marriage I believe a large amount of the population while they may be ok with it isn't going to take steps to champion it. So the numbers end up being skewed as they only take into account those who really care about the issue.

As for your statements about the "Bible Belt" (where I happen to live) I'd just like to make mention as I did earlier that these are the same states that supported the oppression of Blacks as well.

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

What does "Sex" mean?.. Sex isn't "3-some, or touch body parts of each other, etc." If you're smart, you'd already know that Sex was intended for giving birth to people, not to touch each other's private parts and get that "good feel" on a certain area.. If it wasn't for "Sex," you wouldn't have been born today. And yes, I am against all homosexuality.

I don't like being around gay people because I fear they'll try to get near me and check me out, and that really, really scares me like hell.. I wouldn't want any gay-guy check me out. Heck no.. That's a sin against God.

About lesbians, there are so many pornographic movies that include them and it's mostly a no-guy-with-girl-action, obviously. So the perverts who jack off won't see any guys on the screen.. >_>

The world has changed so much.. It's not that common man and woman relationship anymore.. It's mostly guys w/ guys, girls w/ girls, and bisexuals now.

Quote (Dark Paladin @ 7th December 2005 14:54)

I have never heard a good reason for gay marriage

You shouldn't need a "reason" to give everyone the same rights. You should need a reason before you take away rights from a group of people. I've only heard two so far: "God doesn't like homosexuality" and "gay sex is scary/gross." Neither one of those sounds like a sufficient reason to me.

Interracial marriage used to be banned under pretty much the same reasoning, by the way. They cited the Bible to explain why races shouldn't intermarry and came up with all kinds of bizarre (and patently untrue) physical characteristics of black/white men/women to explain why interracial sex would be dangerous physically. And a lot of people got seriously outraged and disgusted by the very idea of people of two different races loving each other. And yet...those laws were repealed! Did they need a good reason to repeal them, or did they just realize that they didn't have a good reason to take away those rights in the first place?

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

Quote (Hamedo @ 6th December 2005 17:17)

Some type of moral code is needed in society.  Desperately.  Following a set of morals and ethics, be they dictated from a religion or whatever, doesn't mean you are buying into a "herd" mentality... it means you are giving your life a compass.  A moral compass.

While I agree that some sort of moral code is necessary, I believe one of the original philosophies of this country was the separation of church and state, so that moral code shouldn't be dictated by the bible. This country was designed to allow people to live by their own religious code, as long as it coincides with our legal code. I believe it's okay as long as it doesn't hurt anyone (and I'm not buying the "it hurts people's families argument. If you can't find it in your heart to accept your loved one's personal decision, then I really don't feel bad for you.)

This post has been edited by Gears on 8th December 2005 00:26

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Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots