CoN 25th Anniversary: 1997-2022
And So We Go To War..

Posted: 24th March 2003 06:38

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You know, of all the forums that I've been to, I think this forum's "Iraq" thread has the most intelligent posts throughout the internet. Congratulations, kids. I'm proud of you. ^_^

Now it's time for the resident moron of the forums to speak.

Basically, my position is somewhere in between a yea and nay for war. If we're going to have a war, then we might as well fight it, but I'm not exactly saying, "Lookie lookie! Iraq has weapons! Let's kill Hussein!" Okay, that was being overly stupid, but let's take a look at the facts here.

Why should we go to war? Because Saddam is a big, evil dictator? Because the people in Iraq are being opressed? Strange; why didn't we get rid of Fidel Castro, if he was a dictator? What about the people in Africa? Even without a dictator, they're opressed by starvation and famine. I think it's very greedy of the world not to help Africa. Have you ever seen photographs taken of the people? Their skin are literally hanging off their damn skeleton, and we don't give them as much as international relief. Okay, I'm going to far; this belongs in an Africa thread. My point is that Saddam isn't as bad as what the world is seeing right now. Also, we accuse them of having NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical [Boy, MGS has really drilled into my head]) weapons. First off, we don't have PROOF of that. Mr. Blix has gone in there, hasn't found anything yet, and I'm not about to say that Saddam has brainwashed Iraq to make him say that there are no NBC weapons. Also, Bush is moving from excuse to excuse to attack Iraq. Do you know that before Bush suspected Osama bin Laden of 9/11, he suspected Iraq. We don't know if he really suspected Iraq or wanted to frame Iraq, but he probably would've hit Iraq instead of Afghanistan if some people didn't wisely point out it probably was Osama bin Laden, in which we probably all agree. Speaking of which, where IS Osama? Next off, as soon as Bush started talking about Iraq, he first talked about NBC weapons in Iraq. Now that Mr. Blix says Iraq has no weapons, Bush talks about freeing Iraq from Saddam. If we find out that Saddam ain't the problem, what is he going to blame next?

Bush: You know, I don't like Iraq's geography and terrain. Let's attack it.
Blair: My troops are ready. Let's move in.

Okay, again, I was being overly stupid, and I think that's enough of why we should go to war. Now, why shouldn't we go to war?

The first thing we should be concerned about is, no, not lives, but rather, money. We will be paying more taxes for war, not just for the supplies of the army, but taking care of the surrendered Iraqi soldiers. The Iraqi soldiers surrender, our troops have to take care of them.

Iraqi Soldier: I surrender.
US Soldier: Okay...then get over here.
Iraqi Soldier: Okay. What are we having for lunch?
US Soldier: ...Uh...I think they're cooking rice.
Iraqi Soldier: That's all? That's a cruel and unusual punishment for a prisoner of war! I've studied law in Harvard before! I'm going to file a lawsuit! I demand a steak with BBQ sauce on the double, NOW!

Okay...just another example of my ego. Now, the next thing is the political issues it may arouse. If the US hadn't joined the UN after WWII, the UN probably wouldn't care if the US was talking war. In fact, if we didn't have to act so stuck up and become a "World Police", we probably could've avoided a lot of stuff, such as 9/11, or the bombing of the African embassies. Hell, maybe even Timothy McVeigh could've said, "You know, our country doesn't look THAT bad...I'll bomb that federal building some other day." For example, because China doesn't give shit about what happens to other countries, as long as they keep world order, they're fine, and that's what makes them less likely to attack. What kind of problems had China had except internal ones? Close to none, except that part when they found that the plane that was built by the USA for Jiang Zemin was bugged...it was the USA's fault anyway.

Well, that's all from me...see ya.

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Posted: 24th March 2003 07:42

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I find is slightly humorous that you comment on how greedy it is for the world to not help the starving in Africa, and then complain about paying taxes for humanitarian aid to Iraq.

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Posted: 24th March 2003 07:52

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Why should we go to war? Because Saddam is a big, evil dictator? Because the people in Iraq are being opressed? Strange; why didn't we get rid of Fidel Castro, if he was a dictator? What about the people in Africa?

The main thing is, like I said earlier, who is the bigger threat to us? Who is the most likely to send some bombs to wherever there is either alot of people or the people we chose to have control over our lives just because they feel like it, and are mad at us as a whole because the president demand he follow war resolutions? The US govt has a habit of attacking one problem at a time, and it's usually the biggest problem.
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we didn't have to act so stuck up and become a "World Police"

I know this may stir up a lot of unfriendly feelings, but
Somebody has to be the police. History has proven time and time again that without a large, unifying power regulating and carrying out laws, civil strife breaks out. If you're wondering when, go look up any time period after the death of a major and successful empire, leader, etc.

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Posted: 24th March 2003 11:26

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I like this topic.  I don't agree with everyone, naturally, but people seem to have made decent cases for their beliefs.  Nice.

The humanitarian causes point is quite a good one I feel.  It's a bit silly to argue anyone is going in there for humanitarian purposes when it would be a lot less bloody to help out some starving African nations first.  It could only be because Britain and America have something to gain from this themselves.  If that's safety and security, fair enough, that's decent motivation, but it's still not some humanitarian effort for the people of Iraq, and you can't really pretend that it is.  That part is entirely coincidental.

I found this rather amusing.  Maybe you will too, it probably depends on your opinion and how strongly (and humourlessly) you hold it.
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Posted: 24th March 2003 11:57

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Tiddles that dialogue in that link totally ruled. I just may have to show it to everyone now thanks.
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Posted: 24th March 2003 22:39

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The humanitarian causes point is quite a good one I feel.  It's a bit silly to argue anyone is going in there for humanitarian purposes

Humanitarians with guns?

That link of yours, Tiddles, is a perfect example of how discussions on politics are so complicated. You end up going in circles, not going anywhere, and they can sometmies get personal if you're not extremely careful. But it is important to put your knowledge and opinions out there so you and everyone around you can get better perspectives.

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Posted: 24th March 2003 22:45

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lol. Why does that sound like Wilson VS Bush? Go, Tiddles...or...um...Elazul.  :E

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Posted: 24th March 2003 23:59

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It is to laugh...at Bush's motives.

I've heard more excuses to go to war from him then all the lies and truths I've ever heard.  I think the war is absurd.  (Y'know you'd think I'd choose another post icon...)

This whole shebob has effectivly crushed any belief in God that I might have had and since we've gone to war, I have been wildely deppressed.

Just the feeling that I could do nothing to stop this war has and is tearing my remants of my soul into whismical shreds.  Now I'm a full blown aethist.

And if anyone has used the 'Support our Troops' thing.  I'll let you know, my bro is in the Marines, I support him.  The military is like a gun.  It's a tool.  I mean it's absurd to think that I hate the military.  It's like sentancing the gun instead of the murderer.

The first Gulf war brought bin Laden to the Anti American side, this war will only infuriate more people to go Anti american and bring more terrorism.

In conclusion, this war is sickening.  I feel sorry for the victims of 9/11 (may thier souls rest in peace) as thier death is being used to start a war that'll only bring more death and hatred.  

Bravo, Mr. Bush...bravo you stupid stupid man.

(In case you're wondering, I'm a pacifist on moral grounds.)



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So if you're done reading this, you know I have nothing to say and you've wasted your time. Thank you come again.
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Posted: 25th March 2003 02:58

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So Bin Laden has only hated America for 12 years? I could be very wrong, but I think I recall that he was a terrorist back in the 70s. Also, what's up with pacifists? I can see thinking that violence should not be used unless there is no other option, but never at all? I realize that you might be the former, but the latter make me sick.

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Posted: 25th March 2003 03:02

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Quote (Kylerocks @ 24 Mar 2003, 18:59)
Bravo, Mr. Bush...bravo you stupid stupid man.

Why is Bush stupid?  He's doing what he thinks is right.  You obviously don't agree with it, but does that make him stupid?  Who is the true judge of what is stupid and what is not here?  If this war prevents another terrorist attack as bad as or worse than 9/11, then was it truly a stupid move?  Open your mind a little bit.

I also find the claim that "I support the troops but condemn the war!" quite hypocritical.  Our troops over in Iraq need encouragement, not to look at the news every day and see that people back home don't think what is going on is right...  I know I wouldn't want to see that kind of stuff if I had a war to fight.  "Oh, we support you guys, but what you're doing is totally wrong and should stop immediately."  It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, and I think people who say "I support the troops" should really take a look at that statement.  If you support the troops but you don't want them to kill in order to do their job, then they are going to get killed.

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Posted: 25th March 2003 03:43

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what's up with pacifists? I can see thinking that violence should not be used unless there is no other option, but never at all? I realize that you might be the former, but the latter make me sick.

Why does that make you sick? How could that make you sick?
It takes greater strength to fight the violent inclinations of human nature than to give in. And to me, no other option is the impatience to give in to these inclinations.
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Posted: 25th March 2003 04:35

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Quote (Dark Paladin @ 24 Mar 2003, 21:43)
Why does that make you sick? How could that make you sick?
It takes greater strength to fight the violent inclinations of human nature than to give in. And to me, no other option is the impatience to give in to these inclinations.

There are situations in life that require force. That could be debated, but most people that do not possess a buddhist type mindset will agree with that statement. People who don't recognize that fact or would ignore it because of their misguided beliefs disgust me. The world would be nice if the use of violence was never required, get out of your dream world. You're telling me that is some asshole breaks into your house that you'll try to reason with him? That's bullshit, That person, who would rob another person of their possessions or life deserves a bullet in the head. But we can rehabilitate them you say, tell that to the families of those who were killed.

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Posted: 25th March 2003 14:46

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I understand how this is an edgy conversation, but we need to try not to insult each other. Over the course of this forum you guys have insulted the ideals that I, and a lot of my friends, follow. I think Bush needs to handle this situation with more respect to the billions of people worldwide who hate this war. I think Saddam needs to have respect for the Trillions who would have him not use his weapons, if he has any at all. Laden needs to be assasinated for his pointless murder. BUT WHO ARE WE THE ONES TO MAKE GLOBAL POLICY? America isn't any more intellegent to make these decisions than any other 1st world country, especially with Bush in office.

Next to that you guys fail to see the obvious thing about the oil arguments. If we took those feilds long ago, look how it would appear to other nations that we fought and warred over resources, the thing we kicked Saddams ass for when he tried to take Kuwait. Imagine how all those other countries would feel when we took the country they bought oil from and all their oil contracts went void becase Whoopdy doo! Iraq is now the United States of Iraq! Now I'm not saying I hate America, I just don't like a lot of stuff that America does.

Fighting for peace is like f'ing for virginity.



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Posted: 25th March 2003 17:36

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Quote (Tmagic77 @ 24 Mar 2003, 20:58)
but I think I recall that he was a terrorist back in the 70s.

Yes, he was a terrorist back in the 70's...when America was training him in the techniques he would use later in life. Of course at the time, he was supposed to be using them on Russia, it was inconcievable he would turn around and use them on us after that.

Think we're only targeting military compounds? Click here (if you have a strong stomach:)
http://electroniciraq.net/news/394.shtml <<<be prepared for violent images though.

Also, CBS news reported that a US missle blew up a Syrian bus yesterday, killing 5 and wounding 10, all civilians. Syria, of course, is our ally.

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Our troops over in Iraq need encouragement, not to look at the news every day and see that people back home don't think what is going on is right...  


Then what are we supposed to do? Sit around with our hands in our laps as things like this happen, while we might be able to do something about it? I hate seeing people die, and I would hate myself even more if I sat around and didn't say anything. A line from Boondock Saints sticks in my head: "We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men." (yes, I realize the point of Boondock Saints goes against my whole philosophy, but I think the line is appropriate anyway.)

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People who don't recognize that fact or would ignore it because of their misguided beliefs disgust me.


Perhaps we're just as disgusted by people that would rush off to use violence before all other options are exhausted.

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That's bullshit, That person, who would rob another person of their possessions or life deserves a bullet in the head.


Time for another story. When I was a freshman in college, a teenager from the projects around here tried to steal my backpack on the el train. He didn't count on me running track, and I caught up with him. When he saw he was caught, he starting acting tough, like he was going to fight me. I said, "hey, man, look, just give me the backpack back, and I won't turn you in."  The boy sat down and starting crying in the middle of the platform, and told me his whole story, he didn't know his father, his mother was a drug addict, his family had to fight the roaches for whatever food they could find (a typical project story, read "Our America" for a great non-fiction look at life in the projects.) I took him to get something to eat, and gave him my number to help him if he needed me. I still talk to him every month or so, he's doing well in school and applying to Chicago State this year.

DON'T try to tell me this is an isolated case. EVERYONE can be rehabilitated if people would friggin try to reach out to them, instead of being lazy and locking them away. Our justice system gives up on people before they even get a chance to start.

Violence begets violence. Peace begets peace.

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Posted: 25th March 2003 21:15

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Quote (Gears @ 25 Mar 2003, 12:36)
Then what are we supposed to do? Sit around with our hands in our laps as things like this happen, while we might be able to do something about it? I hate seeing people die, and I would hate myself even more if I sat around and didn't say anything.

I didn't say that if you are against the war that you shouldn't protest.  All I said was I don't think it makes much sense for people to say they support the troops but then they don't support what the troops are doing.  You don't want our soldiers to die, and you don't want them to kill anyone.  Well, if they don't kill then they will be killed in some situations.  Supporting the troops not only means that you want them to be safe, but that you also support what they are trying to accomplish.

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Posted: 26th March 2003 00:46

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Let's assume for a moment that, right or wrong, the United States is now mired in a regional conflict in the Middle East. Should be an easy assumption to make.

Let's put our opinions aside for a moment as to whether we belong there or not. We ARE there, for better or for worse.

There are a large number of Iraqi troops surrendering thus far, with no bloodshed. There are many fighting back, which does involve some people dying, on both sides. These people are soldiers, and they took soldiers' chances.

Now let's take a look at what we are hearing back from any one of the several news agencies covering these events. Several American soldiers were killed, near Basra, I believe, when the Iraqi force sent out a man with a white flag who led the Americans into an ambush. Within the cities, Iraqi troops are changing into civilian clothes so they can fire from buildings without being suspected. Further reports are coming in that Iraqi soldiers are using their own citizens as human shields in attacks against "coalition" soldiers.

I suppose that some people will say that it is right for the Iraqis to use these tactics, because the coalition deserves what it gets. However, for the sake of fairness, do these civilians deserve to be used as targets by their own people? Are soldiers, who treat their own citizens this way, deserving of quarter? Does a regime that evidently supports this practice deserve to exist? I think that most Americans would be outraged by this if it was happening in Europe.

While war is not the answer to everything, I think the evidence thus far supports the idea that if we had not initiated an armed conflict, that Iraq, sooner or later, would be willing to launch another war of agression against one of our allies in the neighborhood, perhaps Kuwait again, perhaps Saudi, who are in a bit of a rut right now and would be fairly ripe for attack. You can disagree if you want. It's an opinion. But it should be known that maybe we aren't the bullies so many people make us out to be.

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Posted: 26th March 2003 01:51

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Quote (Gears @ 25 Mar 2003, 11:36)

Quote (Gears @ 25 Mar 2003, 11:36)
Think we're only targeting military compounds? Click here (if you have a strong stomach:)
http://electroniciraq.net/news/394.shtml <<<be prepared for violent images though.


There are always civilian casualties in every war, without exception. Are you saying we should have stayed out of WWII because some innocents might get injured?

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Also, CBS news reported that a US missle blew up a Syrian bus yesterday, killing 5 and wounding 10, all civilians. Syria, of course, is our ally.


The bus was crossing a bridge, which is of course important to the Iraqi military. The missle was fired before the military was sure that it was clear. That sucks, but the bus was not what was targeted. The way you say it puts a much different spin on the story.


Quote
Quote
People who don't recognize that fact or would ignore it because of their misguided beliefs disgust me.


Perhaps we're just as disgusted by people that would rush off to use violence before all other options are exhausted.


Oh, I agree. I didn't state so in the post you are quoting, but I did in another post. I think violence should only be used as a last resort, but there are situation where it should be used.

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That's bullshit, That person, who would rob another person of their possessions or life deserves a bullet in the head.


Time for another story. When I was a freshman in college, a teenager from the projects around here tried to steal my backpack on the el train. He didn't count on me running track, and I caught up with him. When he saw he was caught, he starting acting tough, like he was going to fight me. I said, "hey, man, look, just give me the backpack back, and I won't turn you in."  The boy sat down and starting crying in the middle of the platform, and told me his whole story, he didn't know his father, his mother was a drug addict, his family had to fight the roaches for whatever food they could find (a typical project story, read "Our America" for a great non-fiction look at life in the projects.) I took him to get something to eat, and gave him my number to help him if he needed me. I still talk to him every month or so, he's doing well in school and applying to Chicago State this year.

DON'T try to tell me this is an isolated case. EVERYONE can be rehabilitated if people would friggin try to reach out to them, instead of being lazy and locking them away


That great. I'm glad you did that, you are truly an exceptional individual. I'm not about to say that your situation was an isolated case, but I'm willing to bet that it is the exception. You're a smart guy, you should know that blanket statements such as "EVERYONE can be rehabilitated" are dangerous. There are people who can not be rehabilitated, you're welcome to try, but you're not going to succeed with everyone. Probably not with most of them. Would you say that Saddam could go through rehab and then be a good person? I hope he's dead at this moment, and I would think twice about what might have been had the US tried to turn his life around.

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Posted: 26th March 2003 02:24
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Well, time for "The American" to speak on this subject.  I say that because I believe I am the perfect embodiment of the American public and it's attitude towards this topic.  "What qualifies me?" you might ask and I shall answer with this list of qualifications.  Ahem:

1) My complete lack of solid knowledge of the events leading up to and involving the topic at hand as a result of my 2) indifference to said topic.  3)My impatience to deal with the complexities involved as evidence by my reading on the first half of the first page and skimming the rest with a passing eye looking for funny comments and quirky responces.

There, now with the resume out of the way, on to the opinion!

Personally, I'm all for the war though I'll denounce it publicly based on a simplistic moral standing that keeps me from murking through all the grey areas inherent in these kinda things.  Thank fully I don't own an SUV so I can also publicly scream my uninformed opinion that the entire multi-trillion dollar operation is an attempt to commandeer iraq's oil, but secretly these two dollar a gallon prices are making my itch in a place I'd rather like ol Dubya ta scratch (that would be the wallet folks).
Now since all these money-based contraversies are making me feel uneasy in a guilty sorta way, I can be a patriot and say that the Saddam's harboring terrorists that pose a threat to our country.  Course, even being uninformed lil ol me, I know I could say the same about every other friggin country in the whole wide world...especially France.  But those other countries don't piss off everyone else as much and besides, they don't have a leader that's been giving us the finger for so long.  And while those ideas in their own special way are patriotic, I think I'll keep 'em to myself and simply say that he poses the largest threat because of his secret stash of chemical weapons that he's been hiding from us...as opposed to, say Koreas nuklear arsenal which they're displaying like it was some sort of phalic reference.  But nobodies paying attention to those silly asians, so I won't either.

But y'know what?  None of that is really what I think, though that's the gist of what most everyone else thinks of me, "The American."  You wanna know what I really think?  Do you really, cause it is kinda scary when ya think about it...it really is.  Alright, here's what I really think of the war on Iraq:

I don't give a shit.

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Posted: 26th March 2003 03:59

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I tried to be absent from this topic, and I understand, in a manner, that much of Narratorway's post was humor. However, being an average American, I would like to state that I feel insulted by the way in which he portrayed the average American.

I don't bear you any ill will, Narratorway, but you have to expect that when you make insulting statements, people will feel insulted.

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Posted: 26th March 2003 04:31

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I'm sure NP expects criticism for what he said. I personally agree and disagree with him. I think there are a lot of people out there who are thinking just like his typical American, while there are a lot who aren't.

My opinion is naive. I don't want there to be a war. I want the governments to sit down and think about this whole thing from a peaceful, logical, "hippy" perspective. I also want them to realize that rushing into a country and attacking isn't really going to solve much, nor is it necessarily going to get them Hussein's or bin Laden's head on a stick and the weapons destroyed. Oh, and all the oil that they're after.

But then, like NP's American, I don't know all the facts. And I didn't read every single line that every one of you said on the matter, either. Canadians, granted, are very concerned about this whole thing, and as a Canadian, I do wish I could help the innocents. But well, like Canadians in general, I don't want my fellow countrymen risking their lives and being killed in Iraq over something that may not even end near how Bush wants it to end.

We're at war people. Why the heck doesn't it feel like it?

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Post #10199
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Posted: 26th March 2003 15:31

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I know what you mean, it doesn't feel like we're at war. Maybe it never does, because I've never experienced one other than this, so I don't know. But I think it may be because it's not a war of "I sure hope we win", it's a war of "I sure hope there aren't many casualties". This isn't going to turn into another Viet Nam, so people are just hoping for a quick end to conflict.

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone


-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"
Post #10211
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Posted: 26th March 2003 17:47

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I don't think it feels like we're at war because the only updates we're getting are the ones the media wants to show us.  They only let us know about defeats and captures that we're having by telling us about it, since the journalists can't get close enough to get video of something like that.  Instead, they just follow behind the carnage and show us the troops, and different things like that.  The most important updates are the ones where they tell us that we're doing poorly, but the most visual updates are the ones where we're doing well.

As for Narratorway's portrayal of the average American, I have to agree with it.  I've seen protesters who don't know what they're protesting about or are protesting just to be protesting, and I've seen people who want the war simply because they "support Bush" or because we have "defeat those dirty Iraqis" (Yes, I've actually heard the latter).  This war is so complicated because there are so many reasons to go into it, yet so many reasons to stay out of it.  I'm on the side of the people who want to stay out of it, but I sure don't know all the details.  There's a counterargument to every argument, and a counterargument to every counterargument.  It's tough to know what to think sometimes.

It does make me happy to see people in the liberated cities on the news, because they do seem genuinely happy that Saddam Hussein is no longer ruling over their city, and they're free to tear down pictures of him that have been placed all around.  However, there's another side to this, as they have NO government, and chaos was ensuing.  The city had no order or food left, and looting followed quickly after.  People broke into some important building simply to steal the berries off of the trees.  This is why I want the war to end quickly -- the faster it's over, the faster a regime change can be instated and order can be restored.  I don't want the war, but it's too late to bitch about that.  Now I just want it to be over quickly.  I'm worried about the effects on our economy after the war when we have to pay to stabilize another country for "two to ten years," according to Bush, or Powell, or one of his little mini-Bushes.  Our economy is already in the toilet as it is, and having to support a country financially and ... militarily (is that even a word?) is not going to be to our benefit.  I think I'm just starting to say the same things that other people have said, so I'll stop and let more people discuss.

This is a great argument/debate/thread.  I don't think we've ever had one like this.  As the war goes on, I could see this hitting 200 replies or more.

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In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
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Post #10212
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Posted: 27th March 2003 00:15

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I'd just like to start by noting that the posts in this thread are THE most intelligent and informed opinions i've heard or read about this "war" at all, PERIOD. Up till now, my opinion of the American people has been even more cynical than NW's post. I've been saddened by the fact that the vast majority of people in this country, peacenics and warmongers alike, are so stubborn and close minded that they refuse to listen to the other side's opinion, thereby making it impossible to gain greater unterstanding of the issues at hand.

On to the issues, themselves...

Why I support this "war": I'ts been proven that Hussein treats his people badly.(I won't go into details, because this post is going to end up long enough, already)People have scoffed at that reason on the grounds that, "We didn't help the Rwandans, or other groups in the past, why are we starting now?" Well, we gotta start sometime, if not now, when? My second reason is not so much in support of the war as it is in the soldiers in it. As much as we don't want a war, the fact remains that we are now engaged in one, and we should be supporting our troops at this point.

Why I do not support this "war": Oil. As much as Bush and Rumsfeld deny it, I can't help but suspect that this "war" is more or less motivated by oil. Not only do I not beleive we have a claim to Iraq's oil, I also think it would be detrimental for us to have it. I say this in regards to oil efficiency standards, which car manufacturers soon would have no reason to improve, which would have had the same impact on gas prices as getting rid of Saddam, and would enable the world's dwindling supply of oil last longer. Then there's America's image on the world stage. I worry about losing the support of nations that are currently allies of ours. Not to mention the threat of other terrorists and terror organizations popping up because of this that would make BinLaden and Al Quaeda look like high school pranksters.

P.S.- Thanx, Tiddles for that link to a funny conversation about the war. I'm planning to show that to everyone I know. ;)

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*END TRANSMISSION*
Post #10224
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Posted: 27th March 2003 02:30

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I have a question about oil: Doesn't Iraq have the least amount of oil in the area? I think I remember hearing that fact from a documentary about Desert Storm.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer
Post #10231
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Posted: 27th March 2003 05:01

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Quote (Dark Paladin @ 26 Mar 2003, 20:30)
I have a question about oil: Doesn't Iraq have the least amount of oil in the area? I think I remember hearing that fact from a documentary about Desert Storm.

I know they have less than Suadi Arabia, and I'm pretty sure they have less thatn Kuwait. I'd be suprised if they had less than Syria and Jordan. To answer your implied question, we couold not easily rationalize an attack on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc. so if this war is about oil, that's why Iraq.

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What would Zorro do?-Homer Simpson
Post #10243
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Posted: 27th March 2003 07:21

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Quote (Dark Paladin @ 26 Mar 2003, 20:30)
I have a question about oil: Doesn't Iraq have the least amount of oil in the area? I think I remember hearing that fact from a documentary about Desert Storm.

Iraq is already numero dos in the area behind the Saudis. But they have a whole lotta oil down under the ground that if tapped, they could easily surpass Saudi Arabia and possibly become the Oil giant of the world, with a nice stable econony to back it up.

Also, I'm not sure if it's actually confirmed or anything but I was watching "Weekend Update" with Jon Stewart on Comedy Central and he said that the post-war oil rebuilding duties were to be taken up by [insert name], which is the oil company Dick Cheney used to CEO for. If that is true, then the oil debate will really start steamrolling..

One big problem right now is gas prices right? Well they do have those fuel cell cars that run on hydrogen in development..they still need some years of fine tuning but they're supposed to hit the open market in 2008. Definitely would knock down the need for oil. How much does the US have in reserves btw, does anyone know?

Quote
This is a great argument/debate/thread.  I don't think we've ever had one like this.  As the war goes on, I could see this hitting 200 replies or more.


I've been in a few, and I figured here would be a good place for one. I knew that I would get at least one intelligent reply from Tiddles, followed by a number of additional others. But I'd have to say it exceeded my expectations as well. Well covered on both sides of the issue.

Random observation: This is the first time Ive posted that wasn't on the top of a new page.



--------------------
The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone


-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"
Post #10248
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Posted: 28th March 2003 04:46

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Now that I really think about it, it may have just been that Iraq has the worst access to it: low-tech equipment, the oil is too deep, or something like that. I'm not really sure what it was because I don't remember the documentary very well. The reason I thought it was low supply may have been because the documentary said that Iraq invaded Kuwait because they said Kuwait had oil plants on the border stealing their oil.

Anyways, Tidu-who, what you said about the vice-president and CEO to oil company reminded me of something. During the oil embargo of the '70s, there was a law that gave a tax break to those who sought alternate forms of energy. When the oil came back, Congress repealed the act, and those who tried went bankrupt. I heard a statistic once saying that the majority of Congress (in the 80s percentile, I think) have major stock in oil companies, giving them money to be made from any petrolium.
I know it's off-topic, but it's just a thought...



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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer
Post #10288
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Posted: 30th March 2003 03:32
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After much self deliberation, I decided to not so much repeal my first assessment of the war (i.e. I still don't give a shit), but to give a more solid basis for my personal opinion about it.  The previous post wasn't so much my assessment of the war actually, so much as it was an assessment of the American people's reaction to it.  Here's what I think about it and I'll keep it simple.

I'm for the war.  If it's simply for the oil, I have no problems with that.  Hell, I'm rather hoping that's the reason, I like my gas cheap.  Oil's valuable and he gave us an excuse to come in and take it.  Saddam's an asshole to his people and I seriously doubt that the majority of them are reaping the benifits of their oil based economy, so I don't see how they lose by our insurgence.  And now you're sayin there's oil there they can't even get at.  Well move over then, America's thirsty and we got better straws!  The fact that he could be a threat to our country is honestly of little importance to me.

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Post #10349
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Posted: 30th March 2003 04:04

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Narratorway: So you're of the mind that if it doesn't affect you you don't care?

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Post #10350
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Posted: 30th March 2003 05:53

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I guess I am biased.  I haven't approved anything that Bush has done.  I don't like Saddam, but I don't think invading Iraq is very good.

During the 11th century, the Crusades were going on, the Arabs saw it as a invasion.  Today, a lot of Iraqis see this as an invasion.  Both leaders are spouting out more religous refrences then I thougth physically possible.  I've read about the Crusades, and both Pope Urban and Bush sound alike.

A repeat of history?

Iraq and the rest of the Middle East have only been independet for less the 80 years.  For long centuries they have been under control of foreign countries.

Besides, did some big country come in with it's armies to give americans freedom in the Revoultionary War?  No, Americans fought, with lots of French support, and won our independence.  What gives us the right to go into some country and free it?

Oh, and it is fact.  Bush is an idiot.  His IQ is less then average, so was his father.

Also, I remember hearing about kids in Palestine fighting over who has to be Bush when playing with figures.  "No I don't wanna be Bush!  I wanna be Saddam!"

The only thing I like about Saddam gives donations to Palestinians.

If Bush just tried to solve the Palestine-Israel conflict...I'd respect him and the world'll never have to worry about the Middle east again.  ...But NO!!  He has to go for the vendetta and take out the bully-turned-wimp.  Sheesh, I think Bush was never bullied when he was a kid, hell...he might of been the bully, with his influential family...

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Really Random Quote of the Day: "Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war." - Richard M. Nixon

So if you're done reading this, you know I have nothing to say and you've wasted your time. Thank you come again.
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