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Alright, is anyone else thinking this is getting a little weird how long, violent, and consistent these riots are? I mean, if it was just a bunch of angry youths wouldn't they have stopped after a few cars, after a few days? Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't this been days now of fires, fighting, and mobs? Sorry to sound paranoid, but it almost seems coordinated.

How can you remain so angry for such an extended period of time? Their troubles and conflicts with the increasing Muslim community can't be helping things. I honestly think this is turning into a Muslim revolt moreso than angry French youths.


Perhaps Mr.Thou can shed some light if he's around.



Does anyone have an opinion on the situation?

This post has been edited by Tidu-who on 6th November 2005 08:30

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

Well.. I'd comment but I'm heavily biased against France, so I'm just sitting here and watching things unfold without too much of a care. Sorry! (I'm french-canadian, so this may sound a little weird.)

I think street gangs just needed an excuse to riot because, frankly, "two kids getting zapped because of their own stupidity" isn't much of a reason to start torching the place. I really doubt it's one of those so-called "terrorist attacks" Bush keeps harping about, though. Just a snowball effect spiraling out of control (few friends of the fried frnechies decide to manifest their anger, then other street gangs see them do it and figure they'll follow suite, so forth until it's out of control.) Granted, after a few days of this in the paper I've just rolled my eyes and flipped the page to something else, so I'm not up to date. Sorry if I'm way off-target.

Well, hey... Chirac has hit rock-bottom in the polls, so I'm guessing general discontentment may also contribute to this. Dunno.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

You're against a whole country, Silverlance? Don't you think that's a little weird? Or, well, racist?

Anyway, I have no clue what you guys are talking about. Link, please? Now that I've read this little bit, I'm curious.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

Here's a recent article from MSN. I'm sure ye can find more on the situation elsewhere. The story's all over the place.

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Console RPG Cliches

Well, the problem is a little bit complex without some political underlying facts. I'll try to simplify it a little bit.

The reaction is disproportionate because of multiple things: the highest unemployment rate for young adults ever seen in France, and still growing; distrust in the government ability to solve it; and simply distrust in politicians.

Nicolas Sarkozy, our new "Ministre de l'intérieur" (who occupied this post some time ago, with no real progress), is already campainging for next presidential, in 2007. He's making fancy and alltogether demagog statements to make himself look good and presidential, the latest being "We're gonna clean the suburbs with a Karcher hose!". Needless to say that it's not very well received by young adults, the same who are looking for jobs and not finding any (I'm one of them btw: have been looking for a year now), and who now get labelled as hooligans and crooks on television, where Sarkozy never misses a chance to show up...

It's definitely not a terrorist thing, but a result of years of governmental deceit, poor overral economic, unemployment, and housing only bearable and oh-so very expensive in aformentionned suburbs. It seems it's contained in the suburbs so far, although I have seen a couple of burned cars near my place a day ago (I live near Paris border, in a good neighborhood but near another one not so good). Also, a terrorist attack on Paris, should it happen, would not take this form, but rather something like what happened in Madrid or NY.

I don't know how it will end, but it surely will. My dad says it reminds him of the start of may 68 evenements, but it's a lot different this time, since its not the students who started the riots... we'll have to wait and see for the final outcome.

This post has been edited by Mr Thou on 6th November 2005 14:43

I myself dislike most of france, mimes are annoying and the system is messed up, and would take a lot of changes before anything good will come

even though i hate france, i hate people rioting even more
rioting is a country's own people trashing it, it just isn't a pretty sight to see
but what is weird is it seems coordinated, just like tidu-who stated above

who knows if this thing could spiral into another revolution
it would be very interesting if it did

i have been watching the news on multiple stations awaiting the outcome

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

Quote (Cloud_Strife510 @ 6th November 2005 14:05)

even though i hate france, i hate people rioting even more
rioting is a country's own people trashing it, it just isn't a pretty sight to see

I don't see why.

Rioting, although destructive and dangerous, sends a huge message to the higher ups that something is amiss in the country and there needs to be measures taken to prevent it. Would you prefer that the people who are getting screwed by the government just sat idly and accepted it without retaliation? The people have proabably gone through so much hardship and exhausted all other mediums of change that the only way they feel they can get attention is destructive.

I'm not saying "Riot everyone it works!!", but it is very effective and, from what I know in this case, a legitimate cause.

When you have nothing to lose, your means of change becomes more extreme.

This post has been edited by FraudulentTommah on 6th November 2005 20:24

Quote (Elena99 @ 6th November 2005 07:12)

You're against a whole country, Silverlance? Don't you think that's a little weird? Or, well, racist?

Why yes, it most certainly is racist. Unfortunately, I don't have a problem with that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/03/...in1006022.shtml

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Can we get back on the topic of the riots? How much you hate France for whatever unexplained or illogial reason is not what this topic is about, and offensive to boot. To me, anyway.

Even though the Netherlands never encountered wide-spread violence like this, I think I can understand the situation well enough. It's a difficult situation without an easy answer; I just hope that the French authorities can find the means of turning this agression into a positive change within the community.



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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Well FYI I have a problem with racists, not just a small one but an abnormaly big problem with them. Please if you have ignorance keep it to yourself.

Quote (Silverlance @ 7th November 2005 00:10)

Quote (Elena99 @ 6th November 2005 07:12)

You're against a whole country, Silverlance? Don't you think that's a little weird? Or, well, racist?

Why yes, it most certainly is racist. Unfortunately, I don't have a problem with that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/03/...in1006022.shtml

I like this CBS report, Silverlance. It is in fact an accurate display of facts (number of cars burnt, etc...), all bundled up with the use of very VERY accurate words to describe the rioters, like "Muslim immigrants", "Islamic extemists" and "muslim population". VERY accurate. You should also note the emphasis on Phillipe de Villiers' statement, eager to "stop the Islamization of France," being a good ol'fashioned royalist/rightwing extemist himself, on the same level (but with a different tone) as Le Pen...

The construction is also very nicely done: a paragraph with acts of violence, followed by a paragraph of islamic fear, etc... All that's left is the word "terrorists" instead of "rioters" and you're set.

Civil unrest is what it is: unrest made by civilians. Not once since this started has the french government or the police forces made any statement implicating a "muslim population".

Maybe the fact that it's estimated around 5 million is what bothers you, Silverlance. I for one isn't bothered by the fact that my little cousin found herself a great fiancée named Hakim instead of a guy like you.

Your sarcasm is touching.

However, I picked the first article I found without reading it for the sake of providing Elena with a link about the riots; I have a thing against the French, not the middle east (Canada hasn't really been very anti-islamic unlike most of the countries who were caught up in the so-called war against terrorists, for that matter. We have some pretty cool muslims here, like the guy who runs the corner store and who like to talk about pre-70s programming languages with me whenever I drop by to buy stuff. ) so I appoligize if the link was towards a biased article (I would've thought CBS would've had something reasonably descriptive, but that's what I get for putting trust in a name alone )

If anything, the only people I can blame for this are the French, more specifically the French street gangs who have nothing better to do than to cause civil unrest over crap that isn't any of their business (two kids running to hide and getting zapped? I call Darwin award on this!)

But hey, terrorists are everywhere! Even... in your room! Way to go, terrorist-paranoids, you've pushed a nation into blaming everything on terrorists. Guess who wins? :/

Well... at least the "terrorist" at the local corner store has some good stories on FORTRAN programming. >"<

Edit: Typo. :x

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 8th November 2005 01:09

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Quote (FraudulentTommah @ 6th November 2005 15:21)

Rioting, although destructive and dangerous, sends a huge message to the higher ups that something is amiss in the country and there needs to be measures taken to prevent it. Would you prefer that the people who are getting screwed by the government just sat idly and accepted it without retaliation? The people have proabably gone through so much hardship and exhausted all other mediums of change that the only way they feel they can get attention is destructive.

I'm not saying "Riot everyone it works!!", but it is very effective and, from what I know in this case, a legitimate cause.

When you have nothing to lose, your means of change becomes more extreme.

I completely disagree. Civil Rights Leaders such as Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. accomplished much more than their more violent counterparts and are recognized for it. Nothing is more effective than a group of people simply not doing what the government tells them in a non-violent manner.

Doing so generates sympathy from groups that might otherwise be unconcerned or uncertain about the issue you seek to make a statement about. Rioting just makes you look stupid.



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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

The open racism in this thread? Really, really needs to stop NOW. Straight from the forum rules: "we do not tolerate any forms of racism".

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

I think this whole thing is a sad example of what can happen when a government ignores the needs of a large segment of its population. This has happened in places other than France, and it will continue to happen as long as racism and classism create a system that oppresses a large minority within a nation state.

The sad part about this is that so many of the sources I've seen, especially some of the French ones, are barely a breath away from playing the terrorism card. While some of the sources are being unbiased about the reasons why this particular pot o' trouble boiled over, a lot of them are using this as another example of why immigration should be curttailed in France. None of these problems would be happening if the French government and a large portion of the French population could deal with the anti-Arab hostility, and continuing to ignore it even now is just going to make the problems worse.

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Veni, vidi, dormivi.

I think a large portion of the problem is overlooked in this thread. Let me try to show the other side of the coin.

A large potion of the European citizens are, to put in bluntly, scared. Not of the Terrorist Threat; they're scared they are slowly losing their culture. On one hand, we've got a lot of American sitcoms and movies pouring into our nations. 99 % of it is the MTV-ish side of culture; fart jokes, teen movies, pretty people, fast-paced, expensive special effects, the list goes on.

On the other hand, we have a lot of immigrants. I'm not familiar with other countries, but we have a lot of people coming from Turkish decent, Morocco, Antillies and Iran. Suddenly we see mosques appear because the families settle down. Next to the traditional Chinese restaurants, falafel at every corner.

Now, we deal with America in a much less provocative manner. There's a fairly strong anti-US (and especially anti-Bush) feeling, but since Americans don't come over here and don't cause trouble, it doesn't exceed "Bush shouldn't think he's the boss of the world mumble mumble everything about the oil mumble mumble Christian zealots mumble mumble".

The majority of the citizens shout 'Boo' when it comes to immigrants. They liked it better when they could still read every sign they see, when there weren't debates about wearing burka's, the most popular name to give to your male baby isn't 'Muhammed' according to statistics, and they didn't have to read in the paper about the growing concern about the above-average amount of youth offenders among the immigrants.

The government is hesistant to install rules about slowing down the immigration rate. A LOT of people think the government is purposely blind to the problems because they want to be politically correct and are too scared to give the faintest hint of Gosh, isn't it racist when you say things like that?

It's not just a bunch of people running around with pitchforks shouting anti-Arab slogans. It's a wide-spread feeling of uncertainty. To dismiss everything is ignorant fear and/or racism is ignoring the concept of democracy and doesn't do justice to the situation.

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 8th November 2005 20:55

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Quote (Mr Thou @ 6th November 2005 10:41)

Nicolas Sarkozy, our new "Ministre de l'intérieur" (who occupied this post some time ago, with no real progress), is already campainging for next presidential, in 2007. He's making fancy and alltogether demagog statements to make himself look good and presidential, the latest being "We're gonna clean the suburbs with a Karcher hose!". Needless to say that it's not very well received by young adults, the same who are looking for jobs and not finding any (I'm one of them btw: have been looking for a year now), and who now get labelled as hooligans and crooks on television, where Sarkozy never misses a chance to show up...

Based on what I've read, I would disagree. Sarkozy seems to be the only one who has been matching the situation with the proper rhetoric and action. I know he has called the rioters "scum," and in return they have called him "fascist" or "jew" (depending on who you are talking to; I haven't seen film footage), but that approach seems more appropriate in a situation like this. Wasn't he the one who suggested more police and even the army if necessary? Wasn't he the one who suggested curfews? Hasn't that strategy been effective?

Is it a little inflammatory? Sure, but not nearly as bad as Le Pen, and keep in mind that Le Pen made it to the runoff over Jospin in the last election. Le Pen's victory made it clear that people acknowledge this as a problem in France, and his overwhleming defeat in the general election made it clear that they want someone other than him to sovle it. Why not Sarkozy?

I'm not a big fan. I know that he was close with Aznar, and I wouldn't be surprised if he is also close with Berlusconi. I think if (when?) he is elected President, you will see a lot of moderate Republicans drop the anti-French rhetoric, but that's not enough to make me an avid admirer.

However, I currently see him as more capable than any other French politician. Just compare him to his biggest rival, DeVillepin. I like to hear DeVillepin speak, because he is a very good talker (in English as well; and I'm sure if I understood French better I'd appreciate him more) but he doesn't seem very good at following up those words with action. I know he writes poetry. That explains his gift with words. But to solve problems you need to take charge and take action, not write poetry.

Before you go ahead and label me anti-French, I'd like to clarify a few things:

1) No, I don't live in France or Europe.

2) Yes, I understand that someone who does live in France or Europe probably has a better perspective on this than I do.

3) It doesn't change my opinion.

hating the french isn't racism (and note it's not all french i hate, just the general population)
racism is singling out a group because of appearance/physical traits
what i have against the french is based upon their actions
(although silverlance admitted to racism, wierd)
but back to topic
it has been said that actions speak louder than words, and that is true, specifically in this sense, a portion of the french population is ticked off with current day france, and has decided to go in the opposite direction of french norms, such as deciding to start violence instead of surrendering. (exact opposites)
i hope these riots have a positive outcome, and france grows some cajones, Gets a Stable economy, and cleans up the place.

and even though some of you may believe it is a crude way to express what i believe is going on. it makes perfect sense, and jokes around on steryotypes.

So if this upsets any of you, it was not intended to, it is just my opinion

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"Have you ever seen a baby do that before?"

You sons of bitches are gonna make Dave cry.

I also think you're being very ignorant using stereotypes to back up opinions in a matter like this.

I agree with Tom however. He's quite right I think. Albeit the kids were total morons, it's not the way they died so much as the idea and the reasoning and what their deaths could be manipulated to represent. The fact is a problem exists. Regardless of what the protestors use to change it, it doesn't mean the problem is any less important. Kudos, France.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Well, If people thing that western society is at threat from immigration, then the west shouldn't even communicate or even be involved in the east in the first place. It doesn't make sense, western nations have been involved in the east for hundreds of years, intervention of western civilizations into the east have been much more devestating.

Africa - Slavery, Genocide (Treaty of Versailles, and how they incorrectly split the borders, having two rival tribes share land is not a good thing. All the Treaty of Versailles did was provoke more war, violence, etc).

South America - American involvement in South America left a mark. There is always political upheaval.

Middle East - American involvement in the Middle East, only for economical interest.

Western nations claim that they are trying to "civilize" other nations. There are always different intentions.

The Right Wing in Europe tends to go anti-immigrant, mainly due to the fact that unemployment is skyrocketing. They obviously target muslim immigrants since they believe they are "uncivilized". Although the Right Wing has a point about increasing unemployment/crime/poverty, I don't think that is their true intentions. France has been racist these days, all I hear is hate crimes against the Jews, Muslims. Somehow it's beginning to feel like the spanish inquisition, except instead of catholicism, its more culture based. Germany has the "problem" with Turks, Holland has the "problem" with muslims in general, Switzerland sticks to a very strict immigration policy, and Austrailia is probably the worst candidate (even though they are not European, they are extremely discriminatory (as in there is a huge gap between the rights of a citizen and the rights of an immigrant). I have no problem with the idea that the population density is too much, and offering/distribution of services to immigrants will be difficult, but the idea that they think that immigrants are unclean people disgusts me.

America on the other hand encourages immigration since it helps the economy. Canada and the UK are also welcoming (although UK is beginning to reach its limit). Although one of the whole reasons of immigration is that the immigrants are not satisfied in their own nation is caused mainly by western involvement. Here's a pattern.

1) Immigration in a western nation is proportional to discomfort/dissatisfaction of their own nation.
2) Discomfort/dissatisfaction is usually caused by western involvement, whether it is in the form of a treaty, military involvement, or political influence. Western nations tend to use "feuds" between these groups to stir up events like Isreal/Palestine, Pakistan/Kashmir/India, Iraq/Iran, Pakistan/Bangeledish, Cold War's impact on nations in Asia other than the USSR. Also why is Chechnya the only satilite state not granted its own state? Is it cause they are renegade, or its it cause they are the only Muslim majority satilite state.
3) As these tensions are feuled, immigration to western nations increase (where else should these families go, the Ocean?). America takes advantage of this by using it as a work force, although it is somewhat mutual. Europe doesn't like this since they are reaching their "population limit". But we all know about racism, but that is a hidden excuse at times, and its a part of human nature (as disgusting as it may seem, humans like to form cliques for their benefit). Racism, however, is not the main subject, that is only a barbaric last resort of an excuse that is only used by stupid people (refering to racism against immigrants).
4) See 1), make sense?

Solution: involvement should gradually decrease between the East and the West, this way if the East has problems, they should deal with it on their own, until they get it through their heads. Problem: not in western interests, also it's too difficult as this is a huge step, and better things can be done, but based on the incapability that humans are somewhat stubborn, this should take a while.

If you want a Final Fantasy title alongside this, I suggest Final Fantasy Tactics.

This post has been edited by byblos on 15th November 2005 21:38

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Who is Byblos?