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Quote (Neal @ 4th September 2009 22:13)

However, my issue with gay marriage stems from my issues with marriage in the first place.  It doesn't make sense to me for any marriage to receive benefits from the government in its current status - seems like a violation of separation of church and state.

Is that the first time anybody's written that? I completely agree, and I feel silly for forgetting to write that in my earlier post. I feel that 'ask the wrong questions, get the wrong answers' sums up some of this argument. Instead of denying gay couples the same financial support as married couples, we shouldn't deny anybody, single or otherwise.

It's really sad to use financial benefit as encouragement for couples to stay together. Single mothers are usually a lot more in need than the average married couple. I understand that it's good for children to grow up with both their parents, but economic benefit is a poor way of doing that, and sometimes it's better for parents to split rather than stay together and fight.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

I agree with both of you, sweetdude and Neal. I don't like how marriage has become today. But as long as marriage is also a legal union, it is wrong to not allow gay couples not to enter into it. And if it is supposed to be a symbol of love, then it wouldn't matter where the ceremony takes place. There wouldn't even have to be a ceremony at all. Anyone could just say they are married.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Without having read all of the previous posts- I did stop on about half of them- I'll just throw in my two cents, which, I can only hope, does not turn out redundant, or else spark controversy.

Since about last year, I stopped making mental distinctions between homo and heterosexuality. In a certain Freudian sense, we are all, in fact, somewhat gay. Hence, to my reckoning, a person is either sexual or non-sexual, with the terms "gay," "straight," and/or, "homo/heterosexual" implying nothing more than preference, and, also perhaps, evoking a political state.

Are you having or interested in sex? Then you would be a sexual being. Those of us who aren't would be non-sexual.

I admit, I was inspired by these fellows here.

And no, I don't think we're apes. That would be taking it too literally. However, our sexuality is akin to theirs in a lot of ways.



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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (MogMaster @ 8th September 2009 16:12)

And no, I don't think we're apes. That would be taking it too literally. However, our sexuality is akin to theirs in a lot of ways.

Well no, we weren't apes, we were just closely related to them.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...link-found.html

And sometimes we humans tend to think like our cousins, without rational thought. Kinda like, how we did on gay marriage. Many just instinctively say "No, that's bad!" And that is how discussions like this actually become serious.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 8th September 2009 18:22)

And sometimes we humans tend to think like our cousins, without rational thought. Kinda like, how we did on gay marriage. Many just instinctively say "No, that's bad!" And that is how discussions like this actually become serious.

Sad thing is, even te ape species have quite a bit of homosexuality in their little 'society.' They just accept it as a part of nature and go on about their merry way. We could learn a lot from our primate cousins in this matter.

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Does anyone think there is a link between people not caring about same-sex marriages and people not caring about the importance of marriage in the first place?

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote (sweetdude @ 9th September 2009 06:26)

Does anyone think there is a link between people not caring about same-sex marriages and people not caring about the importance of marriage in the first place?

I think there is a connection in that sense, for a lot of people who have more secular views. Since marriage is more important for religious people (typically), they tend to be the ones who are worried (as I touched on earlier) about the meaning of the word, and the sanctity of what it means to the religious. I think many people who aren't religious do it basically as a 'we need to make our finances easier, and since we plan on committing for the rest of our lives, let's go ahead and get married' thing. I'm not really concerned with marriage; in fact, I kind of feel like it is easier to not marry. If we run into any serious problems, as long as there are no kids involved yet it makes it easier to bring an end to things if need be. I guess that you could say part of the reason I don't care if homosexuals marry is because I don't really care about marriage, but when it comes down to it, I like to think it's because everyone deserves to be equal, and it's not the "god given right" of a few to shove their moral convictions down the throats of others.
Oddly enough, America (in most places anyway) accepts a church marriage as a legit marriage (so long as you have a license). On the other hand there are quite a few countries (specifically the Asian countries) that don't count a church marriage. This is where I say, if the church doesn't want to marry gays, fine and whatever. The problem, again, is that the church is allowed to have a say in the lives of those who are not involved with it in any way, shape, or form. There are some countries that don't allow gay marriage simply because it's considered taboo in the culture, but many parts of the western world don't suffer from this mentality, so why are we still still in this barely progressing debate?

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 9th September 2009 21:18

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

I don't know that I would say personally, for myself, that I hold the institution of marriage in low regard. As befits any relationship, marriages are all, in my opinion, necessarily subject to individual scrutiny. When I might say- I have no respect for the institution of marriage- I mean that, generally, a lot of marriages aren't worth the paper they're printed on. That does NOT mean, however, that I haven't seen marriages that mean something more than a legal union. Marriage, in it's ultimate conception, is the pinnacle of friendship between two people who are attracted to each other sexually. That many marriages fall short of this mark means little when one juxtaposes the great majority against the few paradigms of the institution.

Bad marriages, I should like to add, no doubt occur on both ends of the sexual spectrum- just as well as the really good ones.

Marriage, is a word, and in a legal sense, at best a tax issue. What emotions fill up that word is an individual phenomenon. Whereas I might consider it a profound spiritual experience, and not even necessarily a legal thing at all, other people certainly are entitled to their ideas and their shams of relationships as well as their successes and bliss- regardless of sexual preference, I might add.

Even if one could stop gay marriage in a legal sense, they should not be able to stop the union if the two involved were willing to forgo a bit of paper.

Conclusively, in answer to your question, Sweetdude, I hold the idea of marriage in high regard- just not the legal procedures that have been tacked onto it superfluously.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (MogMaster @ 10th September 2009 18:37)

Conclusively, in answer to your question, Sweetdude, I hold the idea of marriage in high regard- just not the legal procedures that have been tacked onto it superfluously.

Do you say, therefore, that there should be no sex before marriage and that husband and wife cannot divorce? I find that people who disagree with this statement also disagree with a barrier on same-sex marriages.

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

Quote

Why do you think it is evil and immoral?

Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 18:29-18:30
" 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Glory, for He hath spoken!! Hallelujah! Punish those evil homosexuals who defile the LORD God Almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 18th September 2009 18:09)

Quote

Why do you think it is evil and immoral?

Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 18:29-18:30
" 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Glory, for He hath spoken!! Hallelujah! Punish those evil homosexuals who defile the LORD God Almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So your basis for deciding the "morality" of homosexuality is on the grounds that some invisible, angry, space-god-alien decided that he didn't like it. This is, despite the fact, of course, that he allegedly built the cosmos and designed man in his imagine. Wouldn't he have then also have allowed for homosexuality to exist? Hard to imagine he'd put it in place if he didn't like it, no? Oh and of course, there is always the "free will" argument, but let's be honest. Anyone who has ever actually interacted with a gay person knows it's not a choice decided upon.

The bible says a lot of things. It tells you to love thy neighbor and to leave the judgment to the invisible space-man, so I don't think one man's faith should be a threat to another man's sexuality.

But I'm sure this is really just NED stirring the pot because he likes to piss people off.

This post has been edited by Dragon_Fire on 19th September 2009 03:20

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 18th September 2009 18:09)

Quote

Why do you think it is evil and immoral?

Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 18:29-18:30
" 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Glory, for He hath spoken!! Hallelujah! Punish those evil homosexuals who defile the LORD God Almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

. . . . . . . . . Umm, you do realize that we are a secular country, don't you?


Also, Leviticus says not to sleep with your neighbor's wife. That's not illegal, because if it was, many more people would be in jail.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote

Punish those evil homosexuals who defile the LORD God Almighty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bravo!

Moderator Edit

more insults in violation of the rules, etc.

. lol you're dumb.

Moderator Edit

And you're on moderated posts now. Well done! -R51

HOORAY FOR INTERNET FASCISM

This post has been edited by Blades of Steel on 19th September 2009 00:41

If we're going off what the bible says, I've seen a youtube video about that.

Betty Bowers explains traditional marrige.

Disclaimer: The video, while on Youtube and not behind an age check, is probably something you shouldn't view at work. View at your own discression.

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"And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped” -Sir Bedevere the Wise

DF: Please do not start another religious debate. Starting a debate by referring to someone's personal god as "some invisible, angry, space-god-alien" does not make you look more intelligent and does not even begin to aid in a debate.

Blitz: He was asked why he believed homosexuality was 'evil,' didn't say that is the basis for legal standings. And adultery is immoral, I believe most people agree with that as well. Would you argue?
I for one think it should be illegal (adultery, not homosexuality), but I guess that goes back to the discussion of the validity of marriage itself. If it is still considered a legal, civic union, then breaking the union should be punishable. Objectively, I'm just saying.

Other guy: just shut up.



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I fear my heart and fear my soul
Life goes on, it surely will,
Without me and I wonder:
Will I ever see light again?

Life goes on...

Quote (Sherick @ 18th September 2009 23:33)

Blitz: He was asked why he believed homosexuality was 'evil,' didn't say that is the basis for legal standings. And adultery is immoral, I believe most people agree with that as well. Would you argue?
I for one think it should be illegal (adultery, not homosexuality), but I guess that goes back to the discussion of the validity of marriage itself. If it is still considered a legal, civic union, then breaking the union should be punishable. Objectively, I'm just saying.

I was referring to what he said about punishing homosexuals. That sounds like a governmental action to me.

And since I asked him why he believed that, I do believe it's his right to believe it is immoral. But it's one thing to believe it is wrong, but another to not support it for others who believe it is right. That's constitutionally wrong.

And about making adultory illegal, how would we ever police it? Talk about an invasion of privacy....

This post has been edited by BlitzSage on 19th September 2009 05:00

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (NeoEx-Death @ 18th September 2009 18:09)

Leviticus 18:22
" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Good thing I don't lie with women as I lie with men, then!

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

One thing that I wonder about gay marriage is this: what could possibly be the harm?

I see you say that it's in the bible not to do it. If it's in the bible, as wrong, it MUST be illegal. But it's in other religious texts for women to hide their face and always wear a cowl. Why is it not illegal, out of respect for that religion, for ALL women, whether they believe it or not, to wear a cowl? I mean, we are honoring religion legally right?

You're basing what should or shouldn't be a law on what does or doesn't go with Christianity, and although I am a Christian, I don't think that should be the case when we talk legal rights. The bible has several mentions of legal slavery, and we all have the veil removed from our eyes that races are inequal. We're all human. I think it's just a matter of taking off the veil that homosexuals are any different; I really think the veil will be removed there, too.

The legal system should be about justice and equality-- to show preference to one, or even several, religion would not be just or equal. If you don't honor one fully, then don't honor all.

it's already been mentioned that we don't legally honor Christianity to the fullest extent anyway, so if you're not gay then who are you to say what a gay person should be able to do?

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You're telling me that there's no hope.

I'm telling you you're wrong.

Quote (RelmArrowney @ 19th September 2009 21:09)

I see you say that it's in the bible not to do it. If it's in the bible, as wrong, it MUST be illegal. But it's in other religious texts for women to hide their face and always wear a cowl. Why is it not illegal, out of respect for that religion, for ALL women, whether they believe it or not, to wear a cowl?

That's because the US is mostly Christian. And while the Constitution specifically forbids it, most people make political decisions based on their personal religious beliefs.

And by the way, it was only after the Counter-Reformation in 1563 that marriages became officially recognized. At that time, the neither the state nor the church was obligated to recognize your marriage.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Well this may be a little off topic but most people in the U.S. are smokers but they are going to ban flavored tobacco. The majorities don't always matter.

Like I say I don't see what the big deal is with homosexual marriage let them get married just not in Christian churches unless it's already a Homosexual church then I don't really consider that a Christian church. I don't hate them but I don't have to believe it is right to be that way.

I have a friend that says she's bi but I love her as a friend and at one time I was transgendered but because my family loved me so much as a person and relative I eventually found Christ. But it is that love that I stand by as the key they didn't badger me out of it or anything I left on my own free will . Do I slip up sometimes? Yes. but I found it easier to be a Christian man day by day.

But anyways getting back on topic what I'm trying to get to is not all or most Christians hate homosexuals. Besides I know there are countries where most people kill homosexuals because of they're faith in whatever and I just think that Christians get too bad of a rap for what happens in America when there has been worse in other beliefs and countries.

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I treasure those who I love that love me in return. <3

Quote (seraphimdreamer777 @ 20th September 2009 00:06)

But anyways getting back on topic what I'm trying to get to is not all or most Christians hate homosexuals. Besides I know there are countries where most people kill homosexuals because of they're faith in whatever and I just think that Christians get too bad of a rap for what happens in America when there has been worse in other beliefs and countries.

Well, technically, if you are a member of one of the Abrahamic religions, you're supposed to think they are despicable. That's why Neo Ex-Death quoted Levitacus, which is in the Old Testament (which means not only Christianity, Judaism and Islam believe in it).

So, as a Christian American, you are part of two nations. One is a secular political state, and the other is a traditional religious doctrine. You have to understand that changing the laws in this country do not change the religious laws.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I apologize in advance for threadcromancy, but Proposition 8 being struck down is a pretty big deal, on grounds of it being unconstituional and in violation of human rights. You can bet your life that this is going to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. It's not even a question.

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Quote (laszlow @ 5th August 2010 15:12)

I apologize in advance for threadcromancy, but Proposition 8 being struck down is a pretty big deal, on grounds of it being unconstituional and in violation of human rights. You can bet your life that this is going to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. It's not even a question.

Oh, it will be, but the question is if the decision will be overturned. I'm not sure if they can. The way the judge made his ruling, he shot down all of their "evidence" and said that a ban on gay marriage was basically discrimination. I don't know how they can overturn that, but it is definitely possible, perhaps even probable.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 5th August 2010 18:08)

Oh, it will be, but the question is if the decision will be overturned. I'm not sure if they can. The way the judge made his ruling, he shot down all of their "evidence" and said that a ban on gay marriage was basically discrimination. I don't know how they can overturn that, but it is definitely possible, perhaps even probable.

Not only that, but the judge cited a ruling by Scalia in his overturning of Prop 8, which will make it even more difficult for the Supreme Court to reverse the reversal if it comes down to it.

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Hey, put the cellphone down for a while
In the night there is something wild
Can you hear it breathing?
And hey, put the laptop down for a while
In the night there is something wild
I feel it, it's leaving me

I don't get what the big deal about homosexuality is. Just so long as gay guys don't come on to me, I really couldn't care less whether they're homosexual or attracted to cats. It's they're life, and they need to live it.

Quote (laslow)

 
I apologize in advance for threadcromancy, but Proposition 8 being struck down is a pretty big deal, on grounds of it being unconstituional and in violation of human rights. You can bet your life that this is going to be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. It's not even a question.

Proposition 8 was struck down? LET'S CELEBRATE!


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"When we think there's no hope left, we keep looking until we find some!" - Claire Farron

Quote (Smash Genesis @ 7th August 2010 22:54)

Just so long as gay guys don't come on to me[...]

If anyone (genuinely) hit on me, I'd be flattered. Of course, if the person hitting on me was a gay guy, I'd also be disappointed, seeing as, y'know, I'm straight.

What boggles me is that so many people are still so dead-set in maintaining the man-woman marriage tradition as law. Presumably, laws are supposed to promote good in society, and, in my (admittedly wholly secular) opinion, the tradition runs counter to that : / .

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Console RPG Cliches

Quote (Smash Genesis @ 7th August 2010 23:54)

Proposition 8 was struck down? LET'S CELEBRATE!

Now, we can't celebrate completely yet. The case will have to go through the appeals process. But I still don't see any reason for it to be overturned. In fact, this could allow gay marriage in every state, if the Supreme Court states that preventing rights of marriage is discrimination. If Neal is right though, then it will be difficult to overturn. Don't cross your fingers yet, but it could happen. We could be witnessing a major point in US history.

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Praise Be To Helix!

One thing I don't understand is the 'so long as gay guys don't hit on me' thing. I get hit on by gay guys at house parties and such all the time, especially if I'm wearing one of my 'Legalize Gay' shirts, and all I do is explain to them that I'm not gay and they stop. People act like gays are out to force sex on everyone and I don't understand this at all. It still seems like a very homophobic claim to me; 'The gay guy can do what he wants, but if he hits on me.. Eeeewwwww'. Give me a break..

To me I'm just being hit on by an individual I'm not attracted to. Just like if you get hit on by an ugly girl, you can politely say that you aren't interested and that will be the end of it.
You can't fault someone for being attracted to you. It isn't like the guy picked you out to hit on you because he knew you wouldn't like it..

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 12th August 2010 18:47

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (Sephiroth @ 12th August 2010 14:43)

One thing I don't understand is the 'so long as gay guys don't hit on me' thing. I get hit on by gay guys at house parties and such all the time, especially if I'm wearing one of my 'Legalize Gay' shirts, and all I do is explain to them that I'm not gay and they stop. People act like gays are out to force sex on everyone and I don't understand this at all. It still seems like a very homophobic claim to me; 'The gay guy can do what he wants, but if he hits on me.. Eeeewwwww'. Give me a break..

To me I'm just being hit on by an individual I'm not attracted to. Just like if you get hit on by an ugly girl, you can politely say that you aren't interested and that will be the end of it.
You can't fault someone for being attracted to you. It isn't like the guy picked you out to hit on you because he knew you wouldn't like it..

The question is, can those people forget about their prejudices and give gay people the rights they deserve? I guess we can only hope.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Romantic marriages don't make much sense from a secular angle, since the specific person someone decides to have romantic relationships with is an individualistic interest, not a public one. Ideally if somebody truly loves another enough to spend the rest of your life dedicated to them, you really should be able to do so without needing a certification or any public subsidization, regardless of pairing type, while trusting them to feel the same. If someone is uncertain about this, I think they should seriously reconsider getting married at all.

Clinically speaking though, maintaining a healthy populous is a public interest. If we put an emphasis on the word populous for a moment, then it would appear that there may be an interest in attracting sexually dimorphic individuals to each other, as this action lends itself to the tendency of increasing birth rates. Same sex couples don't share this trait, making them biologically different. This gives us a logical basis for the preferential treatment of heterosexual couples through marital benefits, since if we can hasten up their formation, there is the potential they'll breed more readily.

Naturally this only stands true if it is in the public's best benefit to increase the birth rate but if it isn't, I can't think of any justification for the concept of "legalized marriage" to begin with. Currently anybody can rent a party hall to hold a celebratory ceremony and in any rational civilization, one shouldn't need government appointed emotional approval. One can't effectively issue a court order against sadness and I'd be quite miserable myself starting on the day that they tried. On this note people usually don't get paid to feel good either (what a great job that would be). I'd personally be all for seeing marriage tossed out of the legal system entirely since love truly has little place there but few others will want that.

All of that being said, the few homosexual couples I've seen meld together much, much better than most of the heterosexual pairings I've seen, including if not especially the married ones. They're probably better off without the burden, especially if the divorce rates are any indicator. Mentioning homosexuals specifically by the way, since I don't really recall ever meeting any lesbians couples. Maybe an individual or two here and there but that's scarcely the same in this context.

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 12th August 2010 21:57

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Role reversal at its finest.