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did you ever beat chupon an gained an elixir?
well, there's a way to wangle it...

take a look at my "tactic":
rescue locke as last in the world of ruin, concerning his level.
equip him before levelup with esper odin to push the speed state.
if you already traded odin for raiden, you will not be able to kick chupon's ass!

as soon as locke has a high speed state, he obtains the relicts "dragoon horn" and "dragoon boots".
at last, you need a little luck.


why should locke increase his speed and wear the dragoon-relicts?
if locke is able to attack first, he will possibly perform a "jump". side effect: chupon's sneeze miss him.
because of the dragoon horn, chupon is hit a few times. the damage is immense.

in the event that locke keep his feets on the ground, in due time he jump again.

this method doesn't promise an 100% success rate! most suitable to sample it, you should use valueless items like tonics.
it's possible, i defeated him a few times.


and it also works with shadow.


a screenshot from the "triumph ceremony":

i use a translation patch, therefore is written "Erh".


(forgive me my bad english, i'm from "old europe" ;____; )

Quote

(forgive me my bad english, i'm from "old europe" ;____; )

What, you're from York?

At level 99 (which your Locke appears to be), defeating Chupon is hardly difficult. An Offering/Valiantknife would do it, and combining with a Black Belt makes it even more easy. Just try and repeat until he just uses that Battle attack...Locke will counter or just plain attack and kill poor ol' Chupon in one hit.

Nah, come back and give me a strategy to defeat this guy at level 30. THEN I'll celebrate your intelligence, and not a minute before!

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Shadow with the stunner has a pretty fast chance of beating chupon so long as you haven't taught him any magic.

Stunner/DragoonBoots/Dragon Horn. It's the only way I go about Chupon's defeat.

Edit

Well, I was going to give a LLG method... but no. Dji challenged the topic creator, therefore, I'm going to shut up and watch this.

This post has been edited by Master ZED on 16th November 2004 19:53

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

If sneeze could be dodged and/or blocked, I'd give you a way to do it at level 8.

Unfortunately that's not the case. I'm eagerly hoping the original poster will rise to the challenge, because there's only one way I can think of and it doesn't offer the highest of success rates at that level.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I tried it. However, Mog never went for my strategy. In fact, battles kept repeating themselves over and over, only varying when I changed the Magic Order.

It's things like this that start to make me wonder if there are controllable patterns. With that, I'm leaving the house for awhile, as I clearly need to leave for a moment.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

There are. The RNG in FF3e is ridiculous. Although I suspect it has multiple indexes into it, FF3e has a bank of "random" data in C0:FD00. It accesses this in C1, for instance, via a function at C1:185B which just reads a number from this address and moves the index forward by 1.

So yeah, there are very, very controllable patterns. The trick would be figuring out how to use them to one's advantage.

(Btw, there ARE multiple indexes into this. C0:062E is the exact same function, but uses an other address as its index. Same story with C2:4B5A. Probably one in C3 too, but I'm too lazy to check. You get the idea, anyways.)

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Defeating Chupon is theoretically extremely easy. In a normal game, it would be a horrible thing to try and do, though. If you totally prepared for it, I can see a maximum chance of ...

1.25 %, and that's with the 25 % of Chupon using Battle instead of Sneeze.

And that's any ANY level, seeing as the Battle attack can be nullified with the proper set-up and the Sneeze means instant loss anyway.

It doesn't involve Mog though, so I'm curious to see what you guys are thinking of

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 17th November 2004 12:24

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Rune: Well, yeah, of course I know, where do you think the Slot guide came from?

At any rate, that doesn't answer my question. If it's the C1 RNGs, then yes, it's controllable. If it's C2, there's probably no way in hell given how they're run. My observations tell me C1, but until I see it in the code, I refuse to believe either way.

If it turns out to be riggable, that's gonna mean another guide down the line, and it will explain why Mog won't do his ******* job.

This post has been edited by Master ZED on 17th November 2004 12:59

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Well, I think I found the ultimate strategy.

1.25 is good, but not good enough. Gau is out.

What we need is what I'm sure is thinking along ZED's line, as I was thinking of Mog in the first place as well.

The odds I have now calculated give me 4.9995 % at victory, at level 1. I challenge everybody to top it And yes, again, that's including the first Chupon shot. Once Chupon uses Battle to start, you chance of winning increase to almost 20 %.

People who really want to know how can PM for the time being, but I want to see how many people can either beat me or guess what I'm thinking off.

Edit

The strategy used in the battle has always seemed dependant on the moment you actually make the battle start. An emulator save from the same menu in which you have already bet the items and are selected the character will get you different results depending on how long you wait with selecting the character. Sure, the moves that happen after it seem more or less fixed, but I highly doubt it's controllable in any way.

Edit

Screw the 4.9995, that's just 5 %. There's a 1/3 in the calculation and I used 33.33 to calculate. The fool I am!

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 17th November 2004 16:45

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Wait, don't tell me you think Mog is essential to this...?

He isn't. I simply make him essential to these Colosseum quests of mine.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Well, since he's simply inferior the way I see it, I figured you had a good reason for using him. *Shrug*.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Quote (Djibriel @ 17th November 2004 07:26)

Well, since he's simply inferior the way I see it, I figured you had a good reason for using him. *Shrug*.

And in that way, he is essential. I'd say how, but that would give it all away.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Hmm, all RNGs are roughly the same, Master ZED. They just use different indexes and either postincrement or preincrement.

C0/062E: PHX
C0/062F: INC $1F6D
C0/0632: LDA $1F6D
C0/0635: TAX
C0/0636: LDA $C0FD00,X
C0/063A: PLX
C0/063B: RTS

C1/185B: PHX
C1/185C: LDA $72
C1/185E: TAX
C1/185F: INC $72
C1/1861: LDA $C0FD00,X
C1/1865: PLX
C1/1866: RTS

C2/4B5A: PHX
C2/4B5B: INC $BE
C2/4B5D: LDX $BE
C2/4B5F: LDA $C0FD00,X
C2/4B63: PLX
C2/4B64: RTS

It all amounts to the same, but not quite. Every call to the RNGs ends up moving the pointer by 1 into the RNG bank, so it's just a matter of knowing where in the RNG table you are, figuring out how many calls will be made to the RNG before your turn goes through (although I haven't checked if anything else mucks around with the pointers and don't have time right now; gotta go work), and figuring out where in the table you'll be before next call.

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Not exactly. The question is what calls it and/or manipulates the index, as that determines whether we can control a pseudo RNG, or perhaps, how much effort it would take to do so in the best of cases.

The C1 RNG is riggable because only Slot, Roulette, and randomized battle animations use it in combat (Flare, Potion, Doom Darts, Echo Screen, etc.). With that, we can rig Slot quite easily (never did figure out Roulette though).

C2, on the other hand, has its index randomized at the beginning of each combat, and that randomization is tied to a frame counter we have yet to figure out how to control. Sometimes it stops, sometimes it keeps going. Also, a LOT of crap uses C2's RNG, in fact, there's even a routine that continuously increments the index. Even if we could control it in theory, it would be quite a large hassle in practice. For the Colosseum's purposes, it may be slightly more controllable. It would still take awhile to figure out regardless.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Yes, but the "knowing where in the RNG table you are" is the hard part. Some of those indexes are based off the frame count.

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Food is like magic in my ears. - Djibriel
Ogopogo lives.

this may sound stupid, but knowing what the RNG table is generally necessary for this conversation, and finding strategies for people who don't is too, unless the topic is limited to such matters, which I doubt. hey, like I care anyway...

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"Fire and steel
follow me through the lands
you will burn hordes of hell
in the deadly raging flames of revenge"

Rhapsody - Flames of Revenge

Oh, don't be fooled: the discussion on Chupon's most probable demise at the hands of some level 1 infant has nothing to do with the current RNG discussion.

The percentages I deliver to the world come from simple math. The Random Number Generator is often too complex to work with. I merely know there's a #% chance at whatever command. Working with the RNG would make me tell you "So I picked Fight, that'll bring us to a new value of 4C, which makes sure a second Fight command is out of the question, etc."

It's quite simple, really. Me doing it should be proof enough :|

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

I had a way to nearly always beat Chupon, but my Nintendo is broken. Once it is fixed, I'll do it again so I can remember!!

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"Look at me! I'm a receptionist! G'fa ha ha!" Quote Ultros

Quote (Djibriel @ 17th November 2004 10:27)

Oh, don't be fooled: the discussion on Chupon's most probable demise at the hands of some level 1 infant has nothing to do with the current RNG discussion.

Yes it does. It has to do with Chupon's demise at any level, and a low level character is certainly included in that.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

I see your point and I'll admit I kinda rushed things when I used the word 'nothing'. I just wanted to indicate that knowing how the RNG works is not required to come up with Low Level Chupon killers.



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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

K. BTW... did my PM help you figure out what I was doing?

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

Not really, but I haven't given it a lot of thought. Maybe it's:

EDIT: Not even close and unworthy of even being read. I'll get back to you on this

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 17th November 2004 22:37

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Vanish-Doom?

Wouldn't a lot of luck, a gem box, a few fight with cactuars to learn ONLY these two spells (and whatever else comes with their espers..), and maybe an economizer do the trick?

If he attacks, which I think he does sometimes, a high enough MDef% could probably block it and with enough luck you could get the two spells off in the right order on the next turn before Chupon gets off a sneeze attack.

Just a thought...

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

That would work actually. Now hit Chupon with Vanish.

Without Rippler, you're not going to pull it off, and even if you have Rippler, you'd HAVE to rig the game to ever see it happen, the odds are just so low, that and Chupon will almost definitely Sneeze by then.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

To clairify what Master Zed is saying Silverlance you can only cast Vanish on yourself. That is because it is considered a positve effect spell, like float. In the colliseum you can't cast those on enemies because that would give them an "advantage".
To stick with the topic here I must say I have never beaten him. I don't see how it could be possible to beat him at level 30. He will just Sneeze you away even with the stunner stopping him 5 or 6 times in a row and allot of luck with Ice 3. Maybe it could happen, if You were able to have just the stunner and Ice 3. Flare as your only spell might work with a Stunner, Gem Box and Econimizer. If MP isn't used in the colliseum you could use somthing to power Flare up instead of the Econimizer. I don't remember if MP is used or not because I am trying to shave a couple of levels off my game. Haven't gotten back to the WOR yet so I can't check either.
Oh and .Trickster I must question if you actualy beat Chupon, I don't see anything showing that you did except an elixer. There are a couple of enemies that you can win that from I think. Can you show us a screenshot of him disapearing/dying? Hey can't I be suspicious, after all your name is .Trickster and you only have one post here.

Edit

Genji Glove, Offering Stunner and Stunner might work also. I don't the Genji Glove but 8 hits with the stunner would raise the chance of the stop working. The extra damage would help too. I should try that with gogo in the world of ruin with no magic. When I get there of course.

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 18th November 2004 04:01

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Role reversal at its finest.

I've only beaten him once out of pure luck.

Had Celes Genji Offeringed. Illumina, Atma- No sneeze- Death. Took two rounds of Attack.

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If you've been mod-o-fied,
It's an illusion, and you're in-between.
Don't you be tarot-fied,
It's just alot of nothing, so what can it mean?
~Frank Zappa

Sins exist only for people who are on the Way or approaching the Way

Quote (Tonepoet @ 17th November 2004 21:53)

Edit

Genji Glove, Offering Stunner and Stunner might work also.

No it won't.

• There's only one Stunner.
• Offering disables weapon-cast spells, the only exception is Tempest due to how Wind Slash is handled.

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The Unoriginal White Sheet

-Master ZED

I came back to edit my last post before somebody realized my stupidity but I am too late. Oh well, might as well make a semi-intelligent post instead. I don't want everybody thinking pirates stole my brain .

Zed, you forgot to mention that Gogo can't equip Stunner . Unless merit award works with it. Even if it does, I couldn't have Genji Glove and Offering at the same time then. Thief Knife works with offering so I assumed it worked with Stunner too. I could have swore I saw Stunner as a won Item in the collseum but I must have mistaken it for Striker. I always hated that Striker/Striker deal. Similar looking names and both are Shadows weapons. You see how long of a time I haven't went into the WOR.

Still Flare and Stunner might work . Along the same lines though is there any way I could rig Quick to work with Stunner? Lets say Running shoes Quick as a spell and stunner. That could work but the brake inbetween might give Chupon a chance to get rid of you anyways. Can I try to see if those ideas work? Without wasting my time of course.

Edit

At least Theif Knife looks likes it works with offering, I know capture does. Came back to adding a warning. Its about using offering to steal. Don't do this for multiple enemies. I remember reading that on Master Zed's white page(You know everything about this game, don't you Zed?). However I am too lazy to explain why.

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 18th November 2004 06:13

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Role reversal at its finest.

ZED: Cursed Shield.

Mog is spinning, hits Chupon with Vanish, and then casts Doom on himself while he is OBVIOUSLY wearing a Wall Ring. He still has survive at least two attacks from Chupon, possibly/probably three due to Cursed Shields speed penalty of -7, and those odds alone make this a farfetched strategy to consider. Plus, you can't learn either Vanish or Doom without learning the entire Esper spell set, so there's six spells to choose from.

Still can't touch either of my two strategies

Tonepoet: effects which replace the normal strike (Thiefknife's Capture, Tempest's Wind Slash, Hawk Eye's throwing) can be used with the Offering. Effects which happen AFTER the weapon (spells) are not.

Finally, stealing more then one item in one attack (Dragon Horn/Thiefknife, Offering/Thiefknife) will only get you the last item you stole. There's a bugfix on Ogopogo's site which allows you to steal as many as you like.

Edit

I suppose that when wearing a Cursed Shld, both 255 Defense and 128 % Mblock cannot be reached. The best you get, I think, is with the Merit Award, Illumina, Cursed Shld, Bard's Hat, Force Armor is a total of 90 % additional Mblock. Mog has a base amount of 12 %...that's about a 80 % chance of blocking the physical.

This post has been edited by Djibriel on 18th November 2004 12:46

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth