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I'm not there so don't have to worry. Haha. But as an outsider I'd like to see Bush out. He's more than a little damaging to international relations, other countries don't trust him, and he undermines the UN. Much like our mini-Bush Blair! Who we all want out too. I've always kinda' liked America, tis our child after all! So I don't wanna see it loose more face to the rest of the world.

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The Arcana are the means by which ALL is revealed.

I'll put it this way: If Bush wins re-election, there's a good chance I'll be moving to Canada in the near future.

I disagree with Bush in almost every aspect, but the things he's screwing up the most (Education and the Environment) are probably the two things I care about most deeply. I don't want to teach under No Child Left Behind (I could rant about the problems with this system, but that would take forever.) Not to mention my other hot button topics such as gun control and peace.

Kerry is not my ideal candidate. But he CAN win, and that's what's important right now. I voted for Nader last time, because Gore had our state locked up, but I underestimated how bad of a President Bush would be. Had I known how these four years would turn out, I would have voted for Gore and tried to persuade as many people as I could to vote for him, too.

On that note, those of you that said you plan on voting for Nader because your state is pretty much in the bag, I would urge you to reconsider. In 2000 Gore won a few states he didn't expect to win, by just a few hundred votes.

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Hip-Hop QOTW:

"Yeah, where I'ma start it at, look I'ma part of that
Downtown Philly where it's realer than a heart attack
It wasn't really that ill until the start of crack
Now it's a body caught every night on the Almanac"

"Game Theory"
The Roots

I'd vote for Bush. I know many people hate him for a multitude of reasons, the Iraq War being one of them, but you have to admit... The man's got guts. He doesn't care what people think of him, and really he's just doing what he thinks is best. I am, personally, quite pleased with the fact that Hussein's out of commission, and I commend Bush for it. I'm not anti-Bush at all.

I hate Bush's politics so i vote Kerry!

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I am a Chimp! I am the newest n00b here!

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Had I known how these four years would turn out, I would have voted for Gore and tried to persuade as many people as I could to vote for him, too.

Bad idea, Gore is a terreble politician. He did a horrid job here in TN.

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At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

I don't trust either sides spin, so I go with the issues. Bush has stated what he plans to do in Iraq, which is nice, Kerry is 100% unclear and non-commital. However, I don't like the war in Iraq in the first place, so I'd hate to make a decision just on that. They are both imbeccilic when it comes to taxes and the economy. Bush is big on deficit spending to a horrifying degree, Kerry claims he'll be able to make money appear magically just by repealing Bush's tax code for the rich. So that's a draw. What it really really boils down to for me is I can't support a candidate who has the interest of the close-minded right wings at heart and would support something as awful as a Constitutional Ban on gay marraige. Do I really live in the same country as these people?

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"That Light has bestowed upon me the greatest black magic!"

Well I think both Bush and Kerry are not good canidates and Nader is just a waste of space. Last election I voted Gore, but I am also a conservative Democrat, and Kerry wants to basically turn America into a Socialist country so I am going with Bush. To bad Clinton can't run again.

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

George Bush... I agree with what he's doing right now as far as Iraq (for the most part but not all), Kerry is the biggest idiot I've ever seen speak in public, and even if I wanted Nader in he wouldn't get enough votes to get in anyway, and I'm also highly anti socialist and most parties but the republican party are pretty socialist.
My only problem with alot of people that down talk Bush isn't because they have good reason to not like him, it's that here in the US and around area that I live in it's like a fad to hate Bush... it's the in and cool thing to do. I ssay if you are going to hate him then have good reason and don't complain unless you vote. I don't think that anyone has much of a right to talk smack about how horrible he is and how they wish we had someone better and then not vote.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 21st September 2004 08:46

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (Sephiroth @ 21st September 2004 03:35)

I don't think that anyone has much of a right to talk smack about how horrible he is and how they wish we had someone better and then not vote.

If they tried to vote, but were disapointed with all the choices available and ended up not voting due to moral reasons, I think they do. They made an effort to choose, but found no proper candidate who would represent them. I think it's the people who don't bother thinking about the candidates, entirely ignore politics, and fail to at least try voting, that shouldn't be complaining about results. A person should never be forced to choose something which they don't agree with, but they should at least make a proper attempt to choose before coming to that conclusion.

Well, as a Non-American, i didn't know much about Nader's policy's untill today, so could not really select fairly as 'Anyone but Bush' isn't an option...
However, thanks to The BBC I do now, and so, using the 11 issues here and selecting ones I actually give two hoots about, let us rock on...

I'll select the best one who fits in closets to my political ideals. (Socialist). All quotes from the BBC page linked to above. From the 11 listed, "War on Terror", Gay Marriage Education, Abortion and Health are strictly domestic issues , and thus ignored, leaving only Six . Budget is an exception as since the US is the world's largest economy, Budget affects the world.
IRAQ:
Best View: Nader

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  Calls for withdrawal from Iraq "quagmire" and an end to the "US corporate takeover" of Iraqi economy. Says case for war was "faulty and fabricated" and Arab / Muslim peacekeepers are needed.

Worst View: Bush

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Argues the war has made the world a safer place and will boost democracy in the Middle East by eliminating a brutal dictator who knew how to make WMD and could have told terrorists.

Well, this ones a no-brainer. Bush clearly hasn't paid much attention.
Nader on the other hand has the solution best for the people of Iraq right there.

DEFENCE :
Best View: Nader

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Criticises military "overspending". Says he would cut funding of "wasteful, redundant" military-industrial complex and use the money for socially useful spending. 

Worst View: Bush

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Under Bush defence budget has become bigger in real terms than at any time since the Korean War. He still plans to spend more. Wants first part of missile defence system ready by end 2004. 

Uh... last time I checked everyone with ICBM's liked America... and anyone trying to develop them's goign to get stopped. Unless it's Israel...
Nader's policy's are what i want to see here. Less Trident, more equipment for troops. Y'know, like guns that work, body armour, boots that don't melt....

ENVIRONMENT:
Best View: Kerry and Nader tie

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Kerry: Wants to sign up again to Kyoto pact on cutting greenhouse gas emissions. Promises to invest in hydrogen-based energy technology and other clean, renewable fuels, including ethanol.
Nader: Warns of "tremendous economic threats facing humanity" caused by environmental damage. Backs renewables, more efficient energy use and end to "subsidies" for oil, nuclear and coal industries. 

Worst View: Bush

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  Scorned Kyoto global warming pact but wants more spent on hydrogen fuel technology. Backs "environmentally sensitive" oil exploration in Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. 

I will admit Bush only really loses out from this text here on the Kyoto agreement, but thats a big point. Thus, the points are shared.

BUDGET/TAXES:
Best View: Nader

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  Would make rich people and businesses pay more tax. Industries "we dislike" would pay most - ie polluters, the alcohol, tobacco and gambling industries and makers of "extreme luxuries". 

Worst View: Bush

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The US had a budget surplus in 2000 but now has a huge deficit. Bush has proposed steps to halve it by 2010 - but wants Congress to make permanent his 2001-2003 tax cuts.

At last. Someone willing to close the Gap. Shame he stands no chance.
Bush on the other hand appears to not be too good at appointing people who can count....

JOBS / TRADE :
Best View:No one
Worst View: Bush

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Promises to enforce trade agreements so that US producers compete on a level playing field. Proposes spending more on training at community colleges and vocational schools. 

Bush only gets a hit here because the US producers should be on a level field alright, with the rest of the world whom they have it easy with...

GUN CONTROL :
Best View:Nader

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Proposes trigger locks, gun licensing and strong enforcement to prevent guns falling into the hands of criminals. Says certain weapons should be banned.

Worst View: Bush

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Backs law to give gun manufacturers immunity from lawsuits brought by victims of gun crime. Against extending ban on assault weapons, which expired in September. 

The less guns in the hands of IDIOTS the safer the US, the less likely some idiot will AK-47 a Highway, the less likely some stupid bunch of morons like Mothers Against Guns can get stuff I like banned over here!
But to be fair to Bush, yeah, I'd love to be able to fire 300 rounds off at a robber and kill him, my dog, my neighbours, and anyone else caught in the crossfire...

Now, I know thats all selfish stuff aimed at what best for me... but Isn't that just what you look for in your presidential candidate?

So the scores are, bush 0, Kerry 1, Nader 5.
Despite the daft name and lack of chance at winning, Nader would get my vote if he were standing for the Scottish or Westminster Parliaments.

This post has been edited by Del S on 21st September 2004 21:13

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Well, this is definitely a lesser of two evils for me. I am definitely still a swing vote, but I will most likely vote Kerry. I don't agree with much of his politics, but I think the "War on Terror" and Iraq are the most important global issues, and Bush is only going to botch up things more with the rest of the world. Personally, I think it's obvious what Kerry's doing. He's straddling that fence to try and get as many votes as he can. All those anti-Bush votes he'll automatically get. But for swing votes, as long as he doesn't do or say anything to make people hate him, he can just sit and wait for Dubya to mess things up. Once he gets into the White House of course his agenda will become clear. I think he could be alot stronger that people give him credit for.

Just going the ole Andrew Johnson route. Say everything's all fine and dandy, he'll make things good again blah blah to get the new African-American vote (in this case swing votes) and then take his actual stand of "THE SOUTH PWNZ!! Confederacy wasn't that bad!!" The question will be what Kerry's actual stance is. Let's hope it's a good one.

And by the way, if you ask me all that preliminary points and voting polls is complete crap! They have 3 polls out right now that all contradict each other! And hell, you're not going to learn anything until the actual election comes. Sampling? Yeah, that's crap.

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The clouds ran away, opened up the sky
And one by one I watched every constellation die
And there I was frozen, standing in my backyard
Face to face, eye to eye, staring at the last star
I should've known, walked all the way home
To find that she wasn't here, I'm still all alone

-Atmosphere "Always Coming Back Home to You"

I see Kerry as the greater of two evils, he has no idea what he is doing and wants to turn America into a Socialist country basically, if I wanted that I would go to Canada.

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War is for the participants a test of character; it makes bad men worse and good men better. - Joshua Chamberlain

U sir R a n00b >:-( - Cactuar

Quote (Endless Knight @ 21st September 2004 06:18)

If they tried to vote, but were disapointed with all the choices available and ended up not voting due to moral reasons, I think they do.  They made an effort to choose, but found no proper candidate who would represent them.  I think it's the people who don't bother thinking about the candidates, entirely ignore politics, and fail to at least try voting, that shouldn't be complaining about results.  A person should never be forced to choose something which they don't agree with, but they should at least make a proper attempt to choose before coming to that conclusion.

You make a good point and I have to say that I agree with you on that. But I also feel that if you don't like who is in office that you could use your vote against them to attack them even if you don't like the other person all to much either.
One other thing...

Quote (Del S)

Worst View: Bush

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Backs law to give gun manufacturers immunity from lawsuits brought by victims of gun crime. Against extending ban on assault weapons, which expired in September. 

I agree with people not being able to file a lawsuit on the manufacturers... I could only not object to a lawsuit being put on the person or business that sold the gun to the criminal because it's their job to make sure they don't sell the gun to the wrong people (although I still don't really agree with that since it was the killer that commited the crime, not the sales person). But then again, I think that if you really cared about your loved one who was murdered that you would try to shut down the seller rather than try to get money from them. I could only see a lawsuit as a last resort.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 23rd September 2004 02:40

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles

Quote (Sephiroth @ 22nd September 2004 21:30)

But then again, I think that if you really cared about your loved one who was murdered that you would try to shut down the seller rather than try to get money from them. I could only see a lawsuit as a last resort.

The only effective way to try to shut big companies like gun manufacturers down is through lawsuits. Lawsuits, if won, send a big message to corporations and are often catalysts for legislation against like companies commiting similar actions, producing similar products, or violating similar rights. Other options, like lobbying or calling your senator, do almost absolutely nothing in comparison.

I realize that it's really their only way to shut down a gun manufacturer but what I'm saying is that that doesn't make it right. I think it's pretty bad when someone can't come up with a way other than a lawsuit to shut someone down if they are really doing something that's that bad. If you don't like guns then that's fine, but that doesn't mean that the people making them or using them are doing anything wrong... and my view on guns and how stupid and cowardly I think lawsuits are is a big factor in why George Bush get's my vote this election. I believe in the constitution even if most people want it out, and I trust that George Bush believes in it too. John Kerry on the other hand just seems like he needs a nice hard punch in the face for all of the lies he's been telling anyway. I don't feel that a liar is a good person to have running a country. I think that if John Kerry were the president that I would need a gun in my house even more because there's no telling what kind of crap I'd need protection from.
By the way, what do you have against big companies? Big companies are the ones that make the system go, they create the most jobs and pay the most money.

This post has been edited by Sephiroth on 27th September 2004 03:39

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Climhazzard is the timeless evil robot who runs some of the cool stuff at CoN (mostly logging chat, since there are no quizzes at the moment), all the while watching and waiting for his moment to take over the world. -Tiddles