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I can deal with people complaining about linearity. I can deal with people whining about how "3v3rythIng is t00 flashy, I h8 change, N0mura is ruining Final Fanatasy!" I can deal with fanboys.


But you know what I can't deal with? PEOPLE ADVOCATING THE SILENT PROTAGONIST. Even worse is the same exact person saying that they're better than fully fleshed-out character "because the players get to choose their personality!" Um, yeah. NO. It's the writer's JOB to write their characters. It's their paycheck. Not my paycheck. Theirs. I've seen a silent protagonist pulled off once, and let me tell you: It sure wasn't Final Fantasy.

Change haters, you have pressed my berserk button. So now: I'm going to rant. Long. And. Hard.


Let me begin by saying that Final Fantasy "never stopped being Final Fantasy." That is 100% impossible. We don't decide what Final Fantasy is. These guys do. Final Fantasy will always be Final Fantasy. What Final Fantasy is; that can change. Might I remind you, that when Sakaguchi pitched the first Final Fantasy to Squaresoft, he said" I don't think I have what it takes to make a good action game. I think I'm better at telling a story." I'll grant you that Final Fantasy I had a pretty lousy plot, but the NES had ridiculously tight space constraints. Telling a good story, and making a good game wasn't feasible at the time, but the desire to tell a story has always been there. And let me be struck by lightning, if Final Fantasies VII, IX and X didn't tell the three best stories I have ever been told. Let me be punished with extreme cruelty for never having a "sense of exploration" in a JRPG. Let me be crucified for my sins if I've always detested the world map.


Next Point: Why in the heck does the laughing scene get so much flack? He's not actually laughing, geniuses. He's fed up with the fact that he's just been torn away from everything he's ever known to be true and good, dumped in a society that revolves around death, and not only people expect him to shut up, deal, and "pray to Yevon," the one person who he had at all related to do expects him to laugh. He's not laughing: he's saying "Okay just go away all you unsympathetic jerks!"

Then there's the fact that he's laughing for real about three minutes later.


Oh, and FYI: Chrono Trigger tells the most godawful story I have ever had the misfortune of being told. It was like "Oookay, we've got this really bland fantasy world that is celebrating a pretentiously-titled festival, but maybe the main character will be a neat guy, right? Oh, wait never mind, he doesn't say anything... Well, then that means he has the most interesting and diverse cast of supporting characters ever, right? Well um, Marle's kinda cool, but she's so weak the game is made about ten time harder if I put her in my party... So then the plot is about a war between humans and monsters, right? Wrong; that's just a poorly-scripted set up for later in the game... In that case, the plot is about us saving the world from this weird, giant parasite thingy! Okay, now THAT is awesome... No, wait we're back in the middle ages again... No, wait we're resolving a conflict between humans and reptiles... no wait, we're dealing with a bunch of snob-y, elitist magician... no, wait, this all ties in to that parasite that destroys the world! Wait, you mean a parasite from outer-space causes the apocalypse? I dunno what the writers were smoking, but I want it! Okay, saved the world and cleared my name! Let's go look on Youtube to listen to the awesome soundtrack! Wait, what do you mean the game built Magus up to the last boss? Yeah, no. From now on, whenever I play this game, I'll just skip the text so I can actually play the good stuff."



Moving on: What the heck do you all have against Nomura? So, he likes zippers and is a little more mainstream than Amano. Big whoop. It's not like the guy has actually directed one of the core titles. Heck, as I know, the only game he's directed that's been released is The World Ends With You, and look how that came out.


Back to the whole "exploration" jizz. Final Fantasy as always been from point A to point B. and the occasional trip from point A to C. With number VI, and maybe XII, that's the series. I haven't XII so I can't say, but I'm told it's a lot more sandbox-ish than most Final Fantasy games. And even then, I hated the World of Ruin. It was a great plot twist, but it meant that nearly everything I loved about the first ten hours of the game were scrapped. Instead of having a story with laser-beam focus, we get a jigsaw puzzle of shoddy vignettes. I like vignettes in video games but only when they don't come out of nowhere. Instead of getting a story that gracefully flew from character to character, we get a bunch of jarringly sudden sketches that all boil down to "Hey, let's go save the world!" "I'm too caught up in my own angst for that." Final Fantasy VI has less angst than VII? Hardly. Then these shorts climax in a trek threw the biggest trash heap in the world, followed by tworeasons why you suck speeches, one from Kefka to the heroes, and another the heroes to Kefka.


That's the last ten hours of VI in a nutshell.




So, yeah. I needed to get that off my chest. Had to blow off some steam and stuff.


Please don't kill me.

This post has been edited by Smash Genesis on 5th August 2010 04:22

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"When we think there's no hope left, we keep looking until we find some!" - Claire Farron

Quote (Smash Genesis @ 5th August 2010 00:21)

But you know what I can't deal with? PEOPLE ADVOCATING THE SILENT PROTAGONIST. Even worse is the same exact person saying that they're better than fully fleshed-out character "because the players get to choose their personality!" Um, yeah. NO. It's the writer's JOB to write their characters. It's their paycheck. Not my paycheck. Theirs. I've seen a silent protagonist pulled off once, and let me tell you: It sure wasn't Final Fantasy.

...Ahem, this is quite a lot to digest... well, From a quick skim through, I actually find general points where I agree and disagree with you.

Let me start with this paragraph quoted above. I at least partially agree, in that I enjoy fleshed-out characters in Final Fantasy games or RPGs, at some points. However, I would completely disagree with you in that the silent protagonist has been pulled off once.

It has been pulled off many times. Look at the Legend of Zelda series, where Link is basically a silent protagonist. Also, look at a game you mentioned as having a great story, Final Fantasy VII.

There are many instances where you choose what Cloud says. In fact, I completely disagree with people that say Cloud is emo. Basically, you can choose whether he s or not through dialogue choices.

Quote

Oh, and FYI: Chrono Trigger tells the most godawful story I have ever had the misfortune of being told.

Now, I partially agree in not liking its story, though I don't think it's godawful, and not for the reasons you give. I think the nature of the story doesn't allow strong character development (since the basic plot mainly involves time travel). But Crono is supposed to be you. I don't think it's the worst story ever, clearly, but I don't think it's top level.

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I'll grant you that Final Fantasy I had a pretty lousy plot, but the NES had ridiculously tight space constraints. Telling a good story, and making a good game wasn't feasible at the time, but the desire to tell a story has always been there. And let me be struck by lightning, if Final Fantasies VII, IX and X didn't tell the three best stories I have ever been told. Let me be punished with extreme cruelty for never having a "sense of exploration" in a JRPG. Let me be crucified for my sins if I've always detested the world map.

FFI had a pretty ambitious fantasy story for its time... but wait, VII, IX, and X have the best stories... you've ever heard? I would barely say that about FFVI, my favorite game. I mean, you ever read Shakespeare? As, well, the greatest writer in this, or perhaps any, language, he has some pretty good stories. Or what about Lord of the Rings, Beowulf, The Odyssey, the three books that inspired all of those stories?

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Instead of having a story with laser-beam focus, we get a jigsaw puzzle of shoddy vignettes.

What do you mean, jigsaw puzzle? The main plot of FFVI remains intact, despite a bit more linearity. And all of those vignettes help continue the story from WoB. I personally hate it when people split the two parts up. You do not have one without the other.

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bunch of jarringly sudden sketches that all boil down to "Hey, let's go save the world!"

There only boiled down to that in your mind, because the stories continue as you assemble the team. Everything you are saying can be said about the three games you talked about, and perhaps even moreso. FFVI at least has the characters close up to the screen when they're talking, unlike FFVII. FFVI connects you to the characters much more than these games do.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (Smash Genesis @ 5th August 2010 00:21)

Oh, and FYI: Chrono Trigger tells the most godawful story I have ever had the misfortune of being told. It was like "Oookay, we've got this really bland fantasy world that is celebrating a pretentiously-titled festival, but maybe the main character will be a neat guy, right? Oh, wait never mind, he doesn't say anything... Well, then that means he has the most interesting and diverse cast of supporting characters ever, right? Well um, Marle's kinda cool, but she's so weak the game is made about ten time harder if I put her in my party... So then the plot is about a war between humans and monsters, right? Wrong; that's just a poorly-scripted set up for later in the game... In that case, the plot is about us saving the world from this weird, giant parasite thingy! Okay, now THAT is awesome... No, wait we're back in the middle ages again... No, wait we're resolving a conflict between humans and reptiles... no wait, we're dealing with a bunch of snob-y, elitist magician... no, wait, this all ties in to that parasite that destroys the world! Wait, you mean a parasite from outer-space causes the apocalypse? I dunno what the writers were smoking, but I want it! Okay, saved the world and cleared my name! Let's go look on Youtube to listen to the awesome soundtrack! Wait, what do you mean the game built Magus up to the last boss? Yeah, no. From now on, whenever I play this game, I'll just skip the text so I can actually play the good stuff."

My first instinct here was to go on a long tirade wherein I'd call into question your ability to fully appreciate the narrative of a game without it being entirely fleshed out for you, or your apparent lack of imagination, or the contradictory way you claim to be interested in the story telling and fleshed out characters but then reject the plot of arguably the greatest game to date, and relate the character's personalities and plot relevance with their gameplay and combat abilities. This is to speak nothing of your flawed assumptions in regard to several of the games you, yourself listed. Instead, I'm going to respect the fact that you're entitled to your opinion. (Misinformed though it may be if the best story you've ever been told is a Final Fantasy game's.)

The fact is that often times, silent protagonists are effective ways for players to project themselves into the game, as it's hard to care about or relate to someone with a personality you cannot stand, or who acts in a completely unbelievable fashion. Granted, you may feel it's a cop out, but then again, no. There are a slew of cases where it has been an effective medium, not just in the video game genre but in comic books, graphic novels and film. This very well may not be to your tastes, but let's not confuse that for a poor job as a writer, especially not when the body of work in question is one of the most acclaimed works of it's era.

You accuse these mysterious "change-haters" and a cast of mysterious "you" and "they" of a list of things that you, yourself, seem to take issue with. As an example, you endorse Nomura and dislike the claims that Final Fantasy games have been 'ruined', but then proceed to rip on the open-world aspect of modern games, going so far to state your distaste for an ever present staple in most games in general, the world map. I imagine having to go in more than one direction must be terribly confusing to you.

The over simplistic way you try and break things down betrays more of you than it does any genuine faults the games may actually have.

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Okay, but there was a goat!

Quote (Smash Genesis @ 5th August 2010 06:21)

But you know what I can't deal with? PEOPLE ADVOCATING THE SILENT PROTAGONIST. Even worse is the same exact person saying that they're better than fully fleshed-out character "because the players get to choose their personality!" Um, yeah. NO. It's the writer's JOB to write their characters. It's their paycheck. Not my paycheck. Theirs. I've seen a silent protagonist pulled off once, and let me tell you: It sure wasn't Final Fantasy.

KOTOR. Just KOTOR. That's the best silent protagonist-having game I can pull from the top of my head.

Wait, I screwed up making a point. Once more, from the top.

I don't like silent protagonists myself, because while it lets the player "be the character" it doesn't affect jack. That's why I like KOTOR in this aspect - it makes your choices directly affect you and the characters directly around you.

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Let me begin by saying that Final Fantasy "never stopped being Final Fantasy." That is 100% impossible. We don't decide what Final Fantasy is. These guys do.

"These guys" have created a sort of continuity and created expectations of future additions. When they created something vastly differrent from those expectations it's only natural that fans will complain.

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And let me be struck by lightning, if Final Fantasies VII, IX and X didn't tell the three best stories I have ever been told.

Lightning incoming. Even changing this to "video game stories" it just doesn't hold up, or it means you haven't played many story-oriented games.
I mean, okay, FF9 I can agree with (even though it's a DBZ ripoff ), but 7 and 10? Seriously? I simply can't imagine how anyone can escalate these into the best three stories ever.

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Oh, and FYI: Chrono Trigger tells the most godawful story I have ever had the misfortune of being told.

Incoming hate pure, unbound, eternal malevolence.
I did find the supporting cast varied and colorful. Every single one of them was a great and had well fleshed-out personality.
And seems to me, that you didn't like the game, because you didn't like the sub-plots, that all made the combined plot of the game. Also, each and every one of these sub-plots was neatly resolved in the endgame, something that recently the Japanese seem to forget about.

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Moving on: What the heck do you all have against Nomura? So, he likes zippers and is a little more mainstream than Amano. Big whoop. It's not like the guy has actually directed one of the core titles. Heck, as I know, the only game he's directed that's been released is The World Ends With You, and look how that came out.

I for one, have most of his characters against him. The majority of them will agnst, brood and be generally unhappy for the brooding's etc own sake.

The belts and zippers are just absurd, but they don't really add anything against him, except maybe not being to treat him seriously.

As for directing, you seem to forget Kingdom Hearts, which is Nomura's child, born out of his borderline fanboyism for Disney. Make no mistake, I effing love that game and I think TWEWY is quite good in its own right.

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Back to the whole "exploration" jizz. Final Fantasy as always been from point A to point B. and the occasional trip from point A to C. With number VI, and maybe XII, that's the series. I haven't XII so I can't say, but I'm told it's a lot more sandbox-ish than most Final Fantasy games. And even then, I hated the World of Ruin. It was a great plot twist, but it meant that nearly everything I loved about the first ten hours of the game were scrapped. Instead of having a story with laser-beam focus, we get a jigsaw puzzle of shoddy vignettes. I like vignettes in video games  but only when they don't come out of nowhere. Instead of getting a story that gracefully flew from character to character, we get a bunch of jarringly sudden sketches that all boil down to "Hey, let's go save the world!" "I'm too caught up in my own angst for that." Final Fantasy VI has less angst than VII? Hardly. Then these shorts climax in a trek threw the biggest trash heap in the world, followed by tworeasons why you suck speeches, one from Kefka to the heroes, and another the heroes to Kefka.

It's not "exploration" itself, it's something you yourself have stated you lack - a sense of freedom. Also, the fact that "point B" had only a vaguely described location, or the "key" to "point B" was hidden somewhere. Also, you could arse around for how long you wanted in most FF games, but in FF13 there's just nothing to do. No sightseeing, no entourage of NPCs to blab to, no nothing.

You didn't like the World of Ruin? You seriously seem to have something against resolving sub-plots, don't you? Those "sketches", as you call them, each represent the characters coming to terms with their issues (something that barely, if at all, happens in FF7), you know, that something called "character development".

Going back to your point of not standing change haters - I don't have anything against change, unless it's change for the worse or for the stupid.

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"I fell off the mountain of words at around the 10,000ft mark. Tell my family...they owe me money." -Narratorway

"If you retort against this, so help me God I'll shove any part of your anatomy I can find into some other part. Figuratively, of course." - Josh

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Good old CoN

I'm often heard to advocate non-linearity over a tightly written story, mostly because it feels like your decisions have some impact on the game world, rather than pulling you down a railroad of predestined events.

But don't get me wrong - I do like a good story. I got into the series through being blown away by FF7's plot. But it feels like each Final Fantasy I've played since - and I didn't play them in any particular order - has been a bit less special.

I think the reasons are these:

• Primarily, I find FF's random battles and pseudo-turn-based combat frightfully dull and an utter relic, no matter what kind of fancy hat they try to put on it. The gameplay is actually a chore you have to tolerate in order to reach the next bit of interesting plot.
• The plots themselves all tend to revolve around similar elements and have a similar structure, making each game less of a new experience. I'd like to call out 6 and 7 for actually being at more of a tangent than usual and thus retaining more appeal.

The issue I take with Nomura is his seemingly cookie-cutter approach to character design. He seemed to use most of his original character designs up on FF7, and after FF8, future characters seemed to all look fairly alike. I'm sure this is partly a fault of the way Square do their rendering, too, because TWEWY stands out as an exception, and I wonder how much that was because of the variety afforded in its art style and the chance to avoid the standard hair and skin cream advertisement characters they normally model - backed up further by FF12 (which I haven't played) receiving some of the same criticism even though Nomura didn't design its characters.

The long and the short of it is that I feel everything Final Fantasy has done has just been done better elsewhere now. The Longest Journey and Dreamfall feature better linear storytelling. The Mass Effect series has a strong storyline and main character but does afford you some decision-making that affects the universe. Dragon Age: Origins manages to capture a traditional RPG feel without a battle system that makes me want to kill babies. I don't think it's really that Final Fantasy lost anything, it just hasn't gained either, and it's been comprehensively overtaken from my point of view.

I'm a little confused as to how you can accuse people of fanboyism when you subsequently fling off one of the most blind-raged, single-minded, fanboy-driven rants I've seen in a long time. Let's just go through it slowly, for fun.

You hate silent protagonists. Okay, sure, I'm okay with that one. I, too, have a distaste for the recent trend of over-exaltation of the "character you create for yourself!" But hey, it's way too much to call all silent protagonists a bad idea. There have been so many games that pull it off that it's a waste of time to list them. Plus, it adds a decidedly intriguing element to storytelling: the silent protagonist is less of a "personality blank slate" as much of a special sort of video game character that is available to the developers. There are no silent protagonists that are really in the hands of the player to mold at their whim; if you can honestly say that everybody's perception and utilization of Crono, Link, Ness, etc. are completely different based on "how you played the game," then you're just terribly confused. I suppose you could say that I'm not jaded to the silent protagonist but what the silent protagonist has evolved into: perfectly decent games turned into a mush of forced decision making and choose-your-own-adventure style storytelling. Blech.

So then you go on to uplift FFVII, IX, and X as the pinnacles of RPG story. Congratulations on choosing three of the most contrived and inappropriately convoluted games in the series. You're the clone chasing the clone of an alien-cloned madman trying to summon a Meteor to destroy the earth he wants to control. Nice one. You spend two long, terrible discs running around an unnecessarily huge world map fleshing out characters that are literally irrelevant to the advancement of the story just to find out you're going to fight a previously unmentioned monster as the final boss. Seriously? The main character is the dream of a dream of a dead civilization who's looking for his dream of a father? Really? To get worse, we'd really have to start digging up graves of FFVIII's childhood connections here.

Chrono Trigger at least made sense. At least you knew who you were up against 99% of the time. At least it didn't have plot twists for plot twists' sake. At least your characters had a recognizable purpose, if not only to represent their respective ages in a fate-deciding battle.

And to downgrade the World of Ruin, one of the only successful character development experiments in any video game, is silly. FYI, you don't have to have more than 3 characters, so try skipping it if you hate it so much.

Let me lay it out for you: the sandbox technique is the current answer to the age-old question: Are RPG's in their classic form actually fun? It's a shame that only a few of us know the answer is "No." If you want linear story telling so bad, maybe you should go read a book, dawg.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing...

I have a bit of a different opinion than Tiddles or Kappa. I do love the classic RPG. But I don't deny any of its flaws that Tiddles or Kappa mentioned. They're certainly there; I just don't mind them. I like the stories, even if they are a bit crazy/impossible a lot of the time. I don't mind the battles, even though they are run based on an unrealistic menu system. Like Tiddles said, it's certainly not a fresh system. I don't particularly mind that though.

But I still think you're a little crazy.

Chrono Trigger response: I'm sorry, let me get this straight. You're calling out CT because it uses the entire Magus story as a poor setup for later in the game... when Lavos suddenly becomes the enemy. Hold up. Doesn't that same thing happen in FFIX, the game you hold as one of your shining examples of RPG plot? Don't get me wrong, I like both games quite a bit. But it sounds to me like you're being a bit unfair here, seeing as you're condemning CT alone for something that just about every game in the genre does. FFVIII does it, FFX does it, FFIX does it.

As far as the silent protagonist, I think that strategy has its own benefits in storytelling. It's an attempt to put the player in the character's shoes. I have nothing against it. In fact, I like when a game goes for the route every now and then. What Kappa said goes for me, entirely. I'm not a big fan of a make your own character design type game. But that's not the same thing as what games like CT and LoZ are doing, which I am okay with.

FFVI response: Not cool man, not cool. The WoR character development is some of the best plot work in video game history, as far as I'm concerned. I'm a big fan of plot. Massive fan of plot, as everyone here knows. And character development is an essential facet of plot. Without it, the plot can't hold up as realistic. Also, I don't find FFVI to be very angsty. I thought the characters were behaving entirely normal, given the situations they were in.

I absolutely love FFX. So I'm going to have to stand by anything good said about it, and sing LALALA real loud when anyone detracts it. I support the laughing scene, and I have nothing against the dream of a dream stuff. I thought it was a fantastic game with a great world, a fantastic plot and excellent character developent.

Exploration response: First of all, you don't like the world map. That's an issue, considering it's the staple of a big majority of RPGs. Secondly, you don't like an open world. There's nothing wrong with an open world, so long as there is plot to tie it together. I have no problem with linearity so long as it's a good story, but the same thing goes with open worlds as well.

I have no problem with the classic RPG genre sticking to its bread and butter here. But a classic RPG is going to need to really pull out a good story now adays just to stand above the current games and the ones that preceeded it. In all honesty, FFXIII did quite a few things well. They had a very fun battle engine, IMO, as well as very good character development. I was disappointed, however, in the general plot of the game as well as the feel of the world. Notice that linearity has nothing to do with that. The game was fine, but not great, and I would say the exact same thing about any other game with the same qualities/detractions from any other era.

And, I hate Orphan.

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Currently Playing : Final Fantasy V
Most Recently Beat : Elder Scrolls: Skyrim
Favorite Game : Final Fantasy X

The newest CoNcast is up! Have a listen!

Erg...others have already said things that I would say, and they have been much more eloquent about it, so I'll keep this short. Though I think that Nomura's design is somewhat bland,and that he seems to be disturbingly in love with one of his own creations to the point where any Sephiroth appearance since 2002 could be construed as a Cool World-esque type of masturbation, I daresay that my distaste for Squeenix rests equally on the honourable Kawazu. I don't mind the dynamic duo making new games (even if they're not something I'm really interested in) but I DO have a problem with them mucking with established properties, ESPECIALLY those they had no hand in to begin with. I'm reminded of an interview with Kawazu discussing games that could see remakes. someone mentioned Vagrant Story, and his response to this day makes my blood boil: it would be hard to remake the game because "there's not much known about Ashley Riot."

Really? Nobody knows anything about Ashley Riot? Maybe that has something to do with the fact that YOU DIDN'T CREATE THE GAME OR THE CHARACTERS, AND YOUR COMPANY DROVE THE MAN WHO DID INSANE?? I was having a discussion about Squeenix about a year ago with a friend who still enjoys the company's product, and in response to my complaints he said something like "You wouldn't be complaining if they remade Final Fantasy VI." Believe me, if they remade that game these days, I would CRY, tears of hatred for a company that has no respect for my childhood. Please, Squeenix, focus on your bright future, make new games for the likes of my friend and Smash Genesis. I will happily enjoy Altus' breathtakingly good output (which features quite a few silent protagonists, incidentally) and I will never say a bad thing about the company again if you just don't mess with the canon.

I guess that wasn't as short as I had hoped...

EDIT: And for what it's worth, Nomura did direct Kingdom Hearts. I'm not saying one way or another anything about the game, just that he has a little more director experience than assumed.

This post has been edited by trismegistus on 5th August 2010 18:52

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"If art doesn't risk upsetting expectations and challenging its audience, it can only stagnate."

C´mon guys, can't you see? you have noticed so many flaws in his speech that is obvious that it is nothing more than a Troll.

Moderator Edit

I'm not willing to go that far, it's not like this is his first post. Don't most trolls start as trolls rather than make 50-odd posts and then start? -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 5th August 2010 20:05

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Live Long and Prosper!

Ahh, one of the issues of the WRPG vs. JRPG debate. With WRPGs, the character tends to be a blanker slate so that more paths are possible, but that means that the character can't be as intimately weaved into the storyline. With JRPGs, the character(s) are more involved in the plot, which makes for a much-better-defined story, but at the cost of plot and event flexibility.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 5th August 2010 15:07)

Ahh, one of the issues of the WRPG vs. JRPG debate. With WRPGs, the character tends to be a blanker slate so that more paths are possible, but that means that the character can't be as intimately weaved into the storyline. With JRPGs, the character(s) are more involved in the plot, which makes for a much-better-defined story, but at the cost of plot and event flexibility.

You're getting lost in your tropes. Dragon Quest, the originator of JRPGs, is also the originator of the bland, silent protagonist. Every DQ game has a silent protagonist, called "The Hero", in order to better place the player in the protagonists shoes, as has been said in this topic multiple times before. Dragon Quest and Pokemon, unarguably two of Japan's most popular and revered series, both use the silent blank-slate protagonist. And ****, one of my favorite western RPGs, Anachronox, fits into your idea of a JRPG much better than your idea of a WRPG.

I'm not going to attack the TC point by point, as many already have. Smash Genesis is simply perceiving an attack on his tastes and preferences, and searching (poorly) for justifications to his opinions. I think it's all too subjective to make a fuss over, personally.

And sorry about that, GMH. I just really hate it when people try to over-analyze and over-categorize media into genres and subgenres when too many glaring counterexamples exist.

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this is a blog mostly about comics and videogames
END SPOILER

Quote (Death Penalty)

The WoR character development is some of the best plot work in video game history

Couldn't agree more. In fact, it's one of the reasons I consider it maybe the best storytelling in video game history. But I would not argue with anyone calling VII, IX, and X three of the best of the series.

Quote (laszlow)

Dragon Quest and Pokemon, unarguably two of Japan's most popular and revered series, both use the silent blank-slate protagonist.

I forgot to mention Pokemon, but if you add that with DQ and Legend of Zelda, and you have three of the most prestigious RPG series ever. And yes, they all use the silent protagonist exclusively.

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Praise Be To Helix!

The games that came to my mine from the start were Zelda and Pokemon.
And both of these series are absolutely amazing.

More or less disagree anyway.

Okay, fine, lasz, I forgot to add "tends" to my second statement. I meant to simply indicate trends.

Of course there are silent-protagonist and/or blank-slate-protagonist JRPGs--CT, FF1, FF3, Pokémon, Earthbound, and possibly SMRPG come to mind.

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Check the "What games are you playing at the moment?" thread for updates on what I've been playing.

You can find me on the Fediverse! I use Mastodon, where I am @[email protected] ( https://sakurajima.moe/@glennmagusharvey )

Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 6th August 2010 14:09)

Okay, fine, lasz, I forgot to add "tends" to my second statement. I meant to simply indicate trends.

Of course there are silent-protagonist and/or blank-slate-protagonist JRPGs--CT, FF1, FF3, Pokémon, Earthbound, and possibly SMRPG come to mind.

FFVII partially too. Because you can choose dialogue for Cloud.

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Praise Be To Helix!

For me, the reason why a blank-slate character might work out in some games is cuz either those games don't have an (significant) emphasis on other characters' development/dialogue, or the games provide the players ample dialogue/action choices with which to mold some sort distinct personality in their protagonist themselves. Chrono Trigger, in particular, fits neither of these and makes its main protagonist stand out the wrong way, in my opinion.

CT's also a fairly old game now, though, and I think more modern RPGs have done a better job of addressing this issue, among others.

This post has been edited by Galsic on 6th August 2010 19:58

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Console RPG Cliches

Quote (Galsic @ 6th August 2010 15:54)

Chrono Trigger, in particular, fits neither of these and makes its main protagonist stand out the wrong way, in my opinion.

Well, neither does Pokemon. They fit in another category. Instead of creating character development, they allow the character a complete blank slate to develop their character in their own mind.

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Praise Be To Helix!

You're absolutely wrong on every point you have made...but I'm gonna focus on Nomura, because I can use pictures instead of walls o text which I'm too lazy to write:

ahem...

You have no concept whatsoever - in any way, shape, or form - what good art looks like. You don't. End of story. No discussion. Why? Because this guy is your forum avatar:



And you un-ironically think it's good and defensible. It is not.

To quote an old thread:

Quote (L. Cully @ 19th September 2007 15:46)

Below is all the proof I need, baby.  Show me an Amano design that's worse than this and I'll concede.

The rest of your rant is wrong because it's typical fanboy stuph, as common on the internet as porn...sorry, pr0n. But the Nomura thing is wrong because I assume you are blind. My condolences.

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Arts

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Twarts

Quote (Narratorway @ 7th August 2010 18:59)

You have no concept whatsoever - in any way, shape, or form - what good art looks like. You don't. End of story. No discussion. Why? Because this guy is your forum avatar:

What a foolish argument. Completely foolish. Everything you accuse him of doing in his post is much worse in yours. Anyone who understands art knows that it is based on personal tastes and perceptions. So, for you to say that his opinion on what "good" as just wrong, is... just wrong.

Then, you give your opinion, call him wrong, and then don't give any reasons. What makes that art bad? Some people may prefer those styles. Obviously they have to, because anime is full of them.

How in the world does just showing artwork prove anything?

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 7th August 2010 16:57)

What a foolish argument. Completely foolish. Everything you accuse him of doing in his post is much worse in yours. Anyone who understands art knows that it is based on personal tastes and perceptions. So, for you to say that his opinion on what "good" as just wrong, is... just wrong.

And yet I'm right. Funny how that works.

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Arts

Farts

Twarts

Quote (BlitzSage @ 7th August 2010 19:57)

Quote (Narratorway @ 7th August 2010 18:59)

You have no concept whatsoever - in any way, shape, or form - what good art looks like.  You don't.  End of story.  No discussion.  Why?  Because this guy is your forum avatar:

What a foolish argument. Completely foolish. Everything you accuse him of doing in his post is much worse in yours. Anyone who understands art knows that it is based on personal tastes and perceptions. So, for you to say that his opinion on what "good" as just wrong, is... just wrong.

Then, you give your opinion, call him wrong, and then don't give any reasons. What makes that art bad? Some people may prefer those styles. Obviously they have to, because anime is full of them.

How in the world does just showing artwork prove anything?

Let's not turn this into an argument of what constitutes good art versus bad art, because we'll be here endlessly. What makes that design bad is lack of fluidity to the style, or any practicality to their design. It's extravagant for the sake of being extravagant and thus, completely unnecessary.

"Art, for art's sake generally creates a whole lot of really poor art." - Vonnegut

I'll agree that arguing that the lack of something worse makes for poor reasoning, but I still have to agree with Narratorway in that the art style itself is hilarious at best. Besides, equally pretentious is your statement of "anyone who understands art"; because as you, yourself put it, everyone has their own tastes and perceptions. As their is no clear definition of what is good art, there is no true understanding of what art "means", either. And while I don't want to play moderator either, I'd like to see this thread stay on topic. I've done enough to encourage it's derailment as is.

I'd even argue as far as more recent, "Western Rpgs" like Fallout or Dragon Age featuring dialogue trees still fall under the category of the silent protagonist, as they never actually speak. Granted, they have defined speech options, it's only slightly different from the Yes or No questions presented in the classic games.

Dragon Age is also a great example of a game with a massive expanse in terms of a world you can explore, but still a very linear plot, regardless of the order you choose to do each quest. Still, it lends well to the feel of the game as a whole in that it presents you options and variations of the same outcome without ever making you feel restrained to that one "correct" path that was intended by the developers.



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Okay, but there was a goat!

Let me make myself clear. I'm not defending the art itself. I personally may side with you both. I'm defending his right to like the art and the games, even if I disagree. That style is a popular anime style that I'm not really big on, but Smash Genesis is not, as Narratorway says, just wrong for believing it's good.

Quote (Narratorway)

And yet I'm right. Funny how that works.

Right you may be. I'm not sure how you can judge that with opinions. But that doesn't mean you don't sound like a douche while being right.

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Praise Be To Helix!

Quote (BlitzSage @ 7th August 2010 21:57)

Right you may be. I'm not sure how you can judge that with opinions. But that doesn't mean you don't sound like a douche while being right.

I never really understood how one can sound like a douche. Smell like one, sure, but sound...?

*sigh*

Listen, this guy started a silly little rant thread that was typical fanboi half-assed logic and hypocritical critique. It doesn't deserve a well-reasoned or thought out response like what DF provided and if you can't seen self-aware hyperbole when its parting your lips with its massive ****, well that's your cross to bear.

Moderator Edit

For crying out loud, NP, let it go. You made this point three posts ago and it's not going to get any clearer. -R51

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 8th August 2010 13:23

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Arts

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Twarts

One of the things that I love about CoN is the lack of trolls. I'm saddened by the fact that this thread is getting dangerously close to GameFaqs territory.

On point, I was just having a conversation about the "new vs old videogames" argument. She is the type of person who doesn't really play FF games, but rather watches her brother play them. To this end, having games that play out like movies and have great graphics is a plus. However. graphics being equal between two games, one generally prefers the better plot and vice-versa. Yet as the graphics in FF games improved from sprites to 3d models, it seems to me that the plots got increasingly less interesting and more confusing. This trend culminated in the creation of FF10 and *shudders* FF10-2. I haven't finished FF12 (other things got in the way and I just haven't jumped back into it) but what I've played of it, I've enjoyed plot-wise. I also have not played FF13, so my arguments are mostly based on what I know of FF6-10. My point, I suppose, is that I much prefer the story in FF6 and FF7 than in 8 and 10 (withholding judgment on 9 because I did not get very far in it).

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Wha? Thanks to me?

I'm going to lock this now. I was about less than half awake when I wrote this after nearly a month of insufficient sleep. My judgement was impaired from the lack of rest, and I don't agree with half of what I wrote. I regret writing most of of it.

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"When we think there's no hope left, we keep looking until we find some!" - Claire Farron