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I've just noticed something...



Look carefully at his right (camera right) hand: notice what our good friend Ziegfried is holding? That's unmistakenably a gun of sorts.

This raises questions. What the heck? I would guess Square had other plans for our master swordsman's sprite, but this is quite curious nevertheless. To boot, his attacks are definitely slashes, so where's the gun from? Did Square just figure, "Aw heck, let's use the sprite anyways"?

Weird.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 24th July 2005 22:02

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the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

Not really. Its actually kinda kool.

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I was scared of it all, scared to
fall, and i couldn't even crawl,
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I can honestly say that I have never noticed the gun in Ziegfried's hand.

Or...maybe its a gunblade. Yes, Ziegfried was the first gunblade specialist ever.

Could it possibly be a beta-sprite that looked so good (assuming that they orginally wanted him to use a gun) and that the gun was concealed enough to be a great sprite, and that editing it would only be a waste of money and time?

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Its not denial. I'm just very selective about the reality i accept. ~Calvin and Hobbes

Yah, i dont post much if you havent noticed. I'm not used to large fourms so i usally lurk and post every now and then..

I don't see the gun, myself. It looks a LOT more like a fold of the cape to me. How about you highlight it a bit more in your posted image?

Edit

Even in the "enhanced" image.

Edit

Clever posting a different enhacned image after I post, but I still have my doubts.

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 25th July 2005 10:27

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This reminds me of one of those "depends how you look at it" pictures. My first instinct is that the "barrel" of the gun is just a continuation of his cape. This seems more believable when I tilt my head slightly to the left so that I'm looking straight down the gun's barrel. I realize that sounds kind of funny, but try it and see!

The other possibility is that if this is a gun, it appears to be a double-barreled gun, like a shotgun. And I've only been to a few hunt camps in my life, where more vast drinking of beer takes place than does actual hunting, but I can't think of any firearms that end in a point. Unless of course we're talking about a harpoon gun or a piton gun.

Maybe they decided to give him a piton gun to make Ziegfried an "ultimate adventurer"? With all of that said, though, I think that we're probably looking at his cape.

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I'm not seein' it either. Also, as it's the /exact/ same color as his cloak, I doubt it was intended to be a gun in the final version of his sprite at least.

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Quote (L. Cully @ 24th July 2005 17:54)

Also, as it's the /exact/ same color as his cloak, I doubt it was intended to be a gun in the final version of his sprite at least.

Should be noted that the SNES can only display 16 colors per sprite, and thus various sacrifices must be made, color-wise.

I'm surprised you people can't see it. It's highlighted quite plainly in the second pic.

Either way, that can't be a fold in the cape as it would imply the cape doubles up over itself near the top of the "gun" and bends inwards in a very, very unrealistic fashion (as though the outer part of the cape doubled up over the inner part despite being bent outwards). The tip also extends too far out to be connected to the cape (it cuts away too suddently near the top "barrel"). Finally, the highlight on the barrel of the gun is too strong for it to be clothing: all other regions of the cape have light, slow gradients whereas this region quickly shifts from the darkest shade used in the palette to the lightest one. That's a cylindrical object, and probably metallic if you compare the intensity of the highlight on it with the highlight on his armor (particularly the shoulder guard).

The way it wraps around his hand makes it seem like he's holding onto some sort of handle (his fingers are event curled the right way to be pressed against a trigger of sorts.) The folds around his hand are way too complex and "detached" to be a part of the cape.

Edit: Typos, matey!

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 24th July 2005 23:09

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I'm going to agree with Silverlance. At first I couldn't really see it myself, nor did I want to believe it, but I have to say, that's a gun that he's holding there

as for the gun ending in a 'point' look again. Silverlance's second sprite clearly defines the gun is just retardedly made, clearly for rectangular-shaped laser beams O.o...

Perhaps that's what his shockwave move is supposed to use? Meh, the entire game is a bit unfinished when you really step back and look at it. Oh well, I just wanted to see Siegfried launch a barrage of laser beams so I could crap my pants and say after reading the text 'Annihilated' "OMG THAT WUZ TEH C00LEZT!".

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"Oh, what a Fuddy Duddy" - Relm
"..." - Shadow
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"Although Edgar showers his attention on the ladies, most are smart enough to pay him no attention. Oh! King Edgar!" - Figaro Castle Inn Attendant

I definitely see a gun. That does make you wonder if square had originally intended for him to be using a gun.

Though, I am partial to the idea that they just liked the sprite so much they had to use it (even after nixing the idea for a gun-toting character)........after all, it's a nice sprite

I can see it clear as day now. I could a slight semblance of a gun, but the second image makes it all the better. Nice catch, RuneLancer!

My memory of Siegfried is very hazy, but correct me if I'm wrong here; the only time you actually see that battle sprite is when you fight the imposter, right? So I guess, as an imposter, he has the right to use a gun rather than a sword.

I suppose this means that I have to change his battle script in my hack to include some gun-based attacks now...maybe halfway through the battle he just starts blasting the heck out of your party with Shadow's ammo.

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Is PJ

I've always seen the gun too, which is what fuels my arguement that Siegfried/Ziegfried can't be a traditional ninja like some people think.

It also appears to me he has a sheath or two for swords, so that doesn't rule out his "swordsman" claim. I always figured that was a gun holster by his right leg too, but it's a bit difficult to distinguish between that and armor.

Quote (Caesar)

My memory of Siegfried is very hazy, but correct me if I'm wrong here; the only time you actually see that battle sprite is when you fight the imposter, right? So I guess, as an imposter, he has the right to use a gun rather than a sword.

Actually, no. Remember, you can fight the real deal in the Colosseum if you wager a Megalixir, and he looks exactly the same as his imposter.

Edit

Corrected Caesar.

This post has been edited by SilverFork on 25th July 2005 07:15

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If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

It's either a fold in his cape coupled with his gauntlet to give a gun-shaped object, IS the actual gauntlet and the gauntlet has a sort sword balde on it's back or he's armed with weaponry up to 200 years in advance of everything else visible in the game. If it was a gun, it, to me, resembles an automatic shotgun a bit like the Jackhammer, Striker, or USAS-12.

Quote (Locke_Cole @ 25th July 2005 03:45)

Perhaps that's what his shockwave move is supposed to use?  Meh, the entire game is a bit unfinished when you really step back and look at it.  Oh well, I just wanted to see Siegfried launch a barrage of laser beams so I could crap my pants and say after reading the text 'Annihilated' "OMG THAT WUZ TEH C00LEZT!".

Except you're not really supposed to see a laser beam directly unless it's either A) striking dust and such in the way, VERY high powered. Also, I'm pretty sure it's diffuclt to shape a laser and keep it's diameter: of you shape it, it spreads, and gets less intense I think. Might work for close combat, but it would lose power so essentially, a rectangular laser gives you a laser-shotgun...

Annyway, I don't see the "gun". I don't think it's a gun or a ranged weapon of any sort. If they wanted to give him a gun why didn't they just give him a revolver?



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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

Quote (Del S @ 25th July 2005 06:09)

It's either a fold in his cape coupled with his gauntlet to give a gun-shaped object

Comparing the two hands reveals this to be false: the round-ish folds over his hand are definitely not part of his gauntlet, and definitely not cape material. The glare on both pieces is very obvious and not cloth-like at all. It COULD be his gauntlet, then, which appears metallic. Unfortunately it doesn't match the one on his other hand at all.

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IS the actual gauntlet and the gauntlet has a sort sword blade on it's back

Possible. But that's a very, very strange sword. Can't say I know of any that curl up twiceover itself like that. It's definitely a metallic object, however.

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or he's  armed with weaponry up to 200 years in advance of everything else visible in the game

Such as the airships, the empire's flying machines pre-floating continent, vehicule-monsters like the mag-roaders and trappers, giant suits of armors that fire particle beams, enemies like the Leathal Wpn/Scullion with visible heavy artillery, the technology to make a whole castle move underground through desert sands, or heavily advanced mechanical vehicules like the TunnelArmr or the Guardian? Having a character weild a rifle of sorts doesn't seem like much of a stretch considering the technological level of FF6.

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Also, I'm pretty sure it's diffuclt to shape a laser and keep it's diameter: if you shape it, it spreads, and gets less intense I think. Might work for close combat, but it would lose power

Little off-topic, but that's the reason why there's no such thing as laser weaponary IRL. They're beams of light, after all, and lasers lose concentration the further they go. I don't know if we have the technology to focus a beam enough to punch a hole through metal at a reasonable combat distance, nor is this topic-related, but I do know we don't have nearly enough power in common lasers to create useful weapons out of them.

Games like to circumvent these little rules and create thick visible laser beams or, worse yet, relatively slow-moving short beams only a few feet long that travel as fast as a thrown tennis ball.

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Annyway, I don't see the "gun". I don't think it's a gun or a ranged weapon of any sort. If they wanted to give him a gun why didn't they just give him a revolver?

Why not give him a shotgun/rifle? Who knows what Square had planned; perhaps they wanted to differentiate between the fake and the real Siegfried by having the fake fight with a powerful firearm instead of a powerful sword.

I messed with the palette a bit and found one that makes it stand out from the cape in clear evidence.



This post has been edited by Silverlance on 25th July 2005 12:11

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I have to agree with Del and a few others. If anything, it's a weird clothing fold that happens to ressemble a gun when you play with it enough. It's interesting, I guess, but it's clearly not meant to be a gun anyway.

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I had an old signature. Now I've changed it.

I've always thought it was a gun. I questioned it a bit when people said they couldn't see it, but after looking at the image a few times I still believe it's a gun. If those are folds then they fold differently than the rest of his cape, conveniently fold around his hand, and happen to resemble a trigger and a long barrel.

I think it's just a character design to make him look cooler, and when programming his attacks they just didn't take the gun into consideration.

I'm definitely with silver on this one, the rest of the folds are completely different then those right by his hand, tooo much to just be ignored... the rest of the cape is flowing smoothly off to the right of the sprite, and then there's this odd protrusion out the bottom right, not capelike at all.

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Quote (Silverlance @ 25th July 2005 06:46)

Quote (Del S)

or he's  armed with weaponry up to 200 years in advance of everything else visible in the game

Such as the airships, the empire's flying machines pre-floating continent, vehicule-monsters like the mag-roaders and trappers, giant suits of armors that fire particle beams, enemies like the Leathal Wpn/Scullion with visible heavy artillery, the technology to make a whole castle move underground through desert sands, or heavily advanced mechanical vehicules like the TunnelArmr or the Guardian? Having a character weild a rifle of sorts doesn't seem like much of a stretch considering the technological level of FF6.

Not to mention it's stated quite clearly in the game that gun powder exists. Kinda pointless to have such a luxery without some sorta projectile weapony like, y'know, guns. Also, in one of the tacked-on FMVs in FF Anthology, the Narshe guards are clearly seen firing rifles.

I honestly don't see how it couldn't be a gun. Given the angle and present creases in his cape, there's really no way it can just be folds. Nothing would naturally fold that way. The left corner of the cape is also blowing forward and up, indicating wind at his back. With that in mind, his left arm is obviously gripping something separate from the cape, as there is no material hanging over his hand. No amount of "playing with it" could solely be responsible for its appearance either, as myself and several others have viewed it as a gun just from looking at the sprite when playing the game.

And really, is there any reason why it shouldn't be a gun?

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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

I'm sort of torn on this. While I don't believe it was intended to be a gun, him having one wouldn't strike me as all that odd. Ziegfried wasn't exact known for his astonishing sword skills, regardless of what he claims, so carrying a backup weapon in the case he runs into someone more skilled than him makes sense. Sort of like in Indiana Jones when he just shoots people to save him the trouble of having to fight someone with a sword.

In that case scenario though, a revolver or handgun would make far more sense, as opposed to an unwieldy rifle (I don't believe for a moment it's a laser gun; doesn't fit with the context of the game).

But anyway, I'm not really sure. Aside from the FMV movie with the raid on Narshe, we don't ever see any human characters wielding guns, do we? I'm sure they exist, but it'd be kind of odd to have one out of the blue, regardless of whether it's used or not, but maybe that's just me.

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Quote (Silverlance @ 25th July 2005 12:46)

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IS the actual gauntlet and the gauntlet has a sort sword blade on it's back

Possible. But that's a very, very strange sword. Can't say I know of any that curl up twiceover itself like that. It's definitely a metallic object, however.

Well, when we consider also that not only will in the future, Square's designers see fit to grant people swords larger than them, gun-sword weapons that probably wouldn't work very well as either, and in this game, the graphics seemingly indicate that Celes is running about her underpants and has a ten year old beat people to death with a paintbrush, why not an odd little armsword thingymajig? Could it even just be a cheat's way of the dagger for parrying perhaps?

Or maybe even a Gun/parrying tool combination: Barrel down the bottom for the projectiles, thick steel rod on top to parry other swords, or a heavily reinforced outer barrel for such a purpose...

Still, the trouble is, the sprite's are too spritey to truly tell what it is without asking whoever drew it.

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or he's  armed with weaponry up to 200 years in advance of everything else visible in the game

Such as the airships, the empire's flying machines pre-floating continent, vehicule-monsters like the mag-roaders and trappers, giant suits of armors that fire particle beams, enemies like the Leathal Wpn/Scullion with visible heavy artillery, the technology to make a whole castle move underground through desert sands, or heavily advanced mechanical vehicules like the TunnelArmr or the Guardian? Having a character weild a rifle of sorts doesn't seem like much of a stretch considering the technological level of FF6.

Well, if it's a man-portable laser/plasma weapon which is the only possibility based on attacks from what people have said. (unless it's broken) it's pretty advanced even by FF6, as IIRC, there's no man-portable M-tek weaponry seen, and if there is any, Vector would probably be very annoyed at it's dissapearance. It's possible of course, the real Seigfried may have gone on a long and ardous quest to nick as much stu... er, a treasure hunt in the ruins of Vector below Kefka's tower (or something) or even simply indefinetly borrowed one off a squad of Vectorian infantrymen he ran into in order to allow the imposter to cobble together a replica. So it's explainable as to how it COULD be a laser, but only with very big jumps.

A gun, perhaps it could be one, but there's no visible indication other than vague shape, and that vague shape could be pretty much anything really.

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Also, I'm pretty sure it's difficult to shape a laser and keep it's diameter: if you shape it, it spreads, and gets less intense I think. Might work for close combat, but it would lose power

Little off-topic, but that's the reason why there's no such thing as laser weaponary IRL. They're beams of light, after all, and lasers lose concentration the further they go. I don't know if we have the technology to focus a beam enough to punch a hole through metal at a reasonable combat distance, nor is this topic-related, but I do know we don't have nearly enough power in common lasers to create useful weapons out of them.

Games like to circumvent these little rules and create thick visible laser beams or, worse yet, relatively slow-moving short beams only a few feet long that travel as fast as a thrown tennis ball.

Yep, impressive but annoying when you think about it. A nice little cheat's way round that was put forth with regards to a weapon in 40k, where rather than have the lasgun and similar weapons fire an actual laser, some of the background implies it fires a ball of air that was superheated by the laser, hence, making the 'lasgun' shot glow, be visible, and not be a solid beam. Maybe the Magitek batteries can grant a similar situation there but again, thats just speculating WAY too much on possibilites. Still, little magitek gives little ball, huge one gives giant great visible beam of death. Ditto Lasgun/Lascannon.

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Annyway, I don't see the "gun". I don't think it's a gun or a ranged weapon of any sort. If they wanted to give him a gun why didn't they just give him a revolver?

Why not give him a shotgun/rifle? Who knows what Square had planned; perhaps they wanted to differentiate between the fake and the real Siegfried by having the fake fight with a powerful firearm instead of a powerful sword.

I messed with the palette a bit and found one that makes it stand out from the cape in clear evidence.

[snippty snippy]

Hmm, well, sorry, but even that's still a little too hazy. I think this, just like a lot of things in FF's, comes down to the eye of the beholder. One sees a gun, another sees a shape.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

I says it's a gun. What I thnk is that the sprite was created early on in the game's develpment or something, so they were like "yay a gun!" But then later they decided to use it for Siegfried, and they were like "on noes he has a gun!" So then they just re-colorized it to hide the gun and make it part of the cape.

So maybe he isn't really SUPPOSED to have a gun, but he does anyway, but nobody was supposed to notice. I agree with what others have said though that NOTHING folds in that fashion, it's too unnatural.

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Distant hills wear a shroud of grey
A lonely breeze whispers in the trees
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I've always seen Siegfried as holding a gun. Colloseum Sieggy has three attacks; Battle (a slash), Shrapnel (a move often associated with monsters with sharp blades; it's the Toe Cutter's palette swap's signature move and Poltrgeist uses it too, holding that massive-ass battle axe and all). The other move is HyperDrive. Shrapnel can be explained as a 'SwdTech' of some sorts; HyperDrive really can't. So if you ask me, that's what the gun does for him.

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The Collapse of Heaven and Earth

Quote (Del S)

Well, if it's a man-portable laser/plasma weapon which is the only possibility based on attacks from what people have said. (unless it's broken) it's pretty advanced even by FF6, as IIRC, there's no man-portable M-tek weaponry seen, and if there is any, Vector would probably be very annoyed at it's dissapearance. It's possible of course, the real Seigfried may have gone on a long and ardous quest to nick as much stu... er, a treasure hunt in the ruins of Vector below Kefka's tower (or something) or even simply indefinetly borrowed one off a squad of Vectorian infantrymen he ran into in order to allow the imposter to cobble together a replica. So it's explainable as to how it COULD be a laser, but only with very big jumps.

He coulda stole/acquired/borrowed it from Narshe, as there's proof that at least their guard force has them; not too advanced for their world, it would seem. I know I said in my other post that they're rifles, but on second thought they fire more like machine guns. Perhaps a barrage of bullets in that way DO make up Sieg's HyperDrive.

And since that's surely what they use their gunpowder for, it's likely they aren't Magitek-powered. I wouldn't think the small towns would have magic at their disposal, let alone utilize it in weapons.

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Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

Looks like, at least from the modified sprite, Siegfried has both a long sword (sheathed behind his back) and a nice long gun (maybe a shotgun a la Rufus?). I've never noticed this before, but this is quite interesting...however, gun-like technology probably exists in the world of FFVI; Magitek allows for magic-based beams, and he could have drawn from that. Someone else has mentioned that gunpowder is mentioned as existent in FFVI, too.

On a more imaginative note, though...considering that Siegfried advertises himself as an extraordinary swordsman, that could actually be merely a sword. It's entirely possible to design a sword ensheathed within a gun. Why he would use such a sword is another matter, but maybe he used to own a gun which broke but forced him to learn to use it like a sword or somehow or other learned how to use a sword by holding it like a gun. That's always a possibility. From this line of reasoning, Hyperdrive becomes some energy/chi/whatever-based attack, not unlike Sabin's Blitzes.

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My memory of Siegfried is very hazy, but correct me if I'm wrong here; the only time you actually see that battle sprite is when you fight the imposter, right? So I guess, as an imposter, he has the right to use a gun rather than a sword.

Actually, no. Remember, you can fight the real deal in the Colosseum if you wager a Megalixir, and he looks exactly the same as his imposter.

Ah...I forgot about the Colosseum. It's been awhile since I've actually PLAYED the game. I do remember fighting the imposter, though, so I figured I might as well make a guess.

This post has been edited by Caesar on 25th July 2005 20:57

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Is PJ

I only see a "gun" when the sprite is modified.

It looks like a sword combined with some cape folds that you didn't remove. Look at how it looks like there is two barrels. The upper one looks like the weapon, and the lower one looks like a cape fold.

It almost looks like a sword grafted to the top of his gauntlet.

The one on his back looks like the sword is still in the scabbard because it's thinner at the top and wider at the bottom.

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

By the way...



Barring the fact it has a different palette, this is the real in-game version of the sprite. The one here at CoN is a tad off (particularly with the top part of the sword; problems with the transparency may've caused that I suppose.)

Edit: Did a quick rip of the real, in-game, unaltered one. More reasonable basis for comparaison. Depsite the difference between the CON one and the in-game one (however slight they may be), he still DOES appear to have a sword strapped to his back. And to have a gun in his hand, and not a fold of his cape as many have disproven. If you're going to argue that angle, it wouldn't hurt to explain why everyone who has brought up how such a fold is impossible is incorrect and to give your own reasoning, because "lol no it's not" doesn't do much.

This post has been edited by Silverlance on 26th July 2005 00:50

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"Judge not a man by his thoughts and words, but by
the quality and quantity of liquor in his possession
and the likelyhood of him sharing."

I didn't say the entire thing was a fold, just the second "barrel" of the "gun."

He might even be clinging onto a fistful of cape, making that entire area weird folds of the cape.

This post has been edited by Dark Paladin on 26th July 2005 01:05

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"I had to write four novels before they let me write comic books."
-Brad Meltzer

Going by an unmodified sprite:

Although it's insignificant, there's a tiny bit of highlighting on the "bottom barrel", as it's being called, whereas the cape's flow at that point is - for lack of a better term coming to mind - concave and shadowed. That means there's no part of the cape behind where the alleged gun is that light could reflect off of, so the part with the highlighting must be separate, i.e part of the gun.

Even if there wasn't that piece of evidence, the flow of the cape is rather smooth and wavy in its upward motion. The second barrel contradicts this by sticking out and pointing slighty downward. In order for that to be a fold instead, there'd have to be something like a tear in the fabric, and I don't see why such a detail like that would be placed in an area where it'd hardly be noticeable even under close examination of the image. Plus it's already been covered that that entire area can't be folds, whether he's gripping it or not (besides, you can see his left hand with the fingers curved up, behind what he's holding. There'd be a BIG difference in the shape of his cape if all that was cloth he was grabbing, but there's not enough material visible for that to be possible).

And the way I see it, that isn't even a second barrel. It looks more like either a non-barrel part of the gun or a pump slide to me.

--------------------

Words of Wisdom:

If something can go wrong, it will.

If anything simply cannot go wrong, it will anyway.

If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong. - Murphy’s Law

Boing! Zoom! - Mr. Saturn

I've just noticed something else: what is that tied to his waist? Could that be a holster? In the original image, it's definitely a different colour than his hand, so it's not his gauntlet.

I agree that the 'gun' being folds of his cape is an extremely implausible explanation for what we're seeing. But I just wonder why the gun would be the same colour as his armour and cape. Perhaps that was Square's way of editing it out? And while I'm on that subject, does anyone know if he looks any different in the Japanese version of the game? I realize that might be a bit of a stretch, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was censored like Siren was.

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Cannis Rules: Balance of Power - My favourite Yuri's Revenge Mod