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i was thinking about discussing this:

Tifa has a very good reason:

1:It's shinra's fault that they lost control of their best soldier sephiroth and her died died to sephiroth.
2:They created this monster of a trained altered warrior superior in every way
3:What happened to cloud most definitely effects her,just because they are best friends,she does show concern and helps cloud alot,in fact cloud owes tifa big time for the help.When you think about it,it can't be easy seeing a olld childhood friend of yours suffering from stigmatism and disoriented.

4:Save the planet from pollution and immenent destruction.

Barret:

He too has a pretty strong reason too no?

1:Stop corruption
2:To make a pollution free environment where his child and his children's children can live without risk.

I always felt like he was the most family man in the game.

Cloud:

1:Of course he lost friends and family if they were in that town.
2:Aerith,the girl of his dreams murdered by sephiroth,if he was controlled,this would have never happened

Now i can't garantee that the disorientation would be from the failed experiments,but it might have helped make it worse.

What do you think guys?

Leave your comments and ideas

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.

They're freedom fighters. Obviously they all have reasons for doing what they do; you don't go blowing up an eighth of a city without a good reason. Cloud thought he'd been a SOLDIER, Barret wanted to protect Marlene, Tifa wanted in a sense to protect Cloud, Aerith's mother had been killed by Shinra, Vincent hated Hojo, Yuffie's home country was ruined by Shinra, Nanaki had been taken from his home and experimented upon, Cid had his dream to go into space ruined twice (first by Shera, then by Palmer. And who does Palmer work for?), and, finally, Cait Sith, who was originally a traitor anyway but

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Reeve changed his mind

.

I wonder what Biggs, Wedge, and Jesse joined Avalanche though. They don't exactly live long enough to have much character depth.

--------------------

Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
FFVI
FFVII
FFIX
FFX
FF Tactics: Advance 2
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest 8
Dragon Quest 11
Super Mario RPG

Well, it's often said that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so that pretty much means you can't say "Environmental Freedom Fighter" without saying "Mental Terrorist".

And AVALANCHE are all but self described Environmental Freedom Fighters. Oh dear.

Quote (Magitek_slayer @ 28th August 2010 08:21)

i was thinking about discussing this:

Tifa has a very good reason:

1:It's shinra's fault that they lost control of their best soldier sephiroth and her died  died to sephiroth.

Yeah, it's the jump in logic people like AVALANCHE need there. It is the fault of the group that controlled this man, because they failed to control him. Perfectly sensible when you've gone a little insane. But how would she reason that the Shinra lost control? All she knew was he went mad and destroyed everything. She herself has gone somewhat mad and has developed an extremist outlook if this is the case. But she's not alone. Much of the cast has their own mental imbalances.

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2:They created this monster of a trained altered warrior superior in every way

In fairness, Tifa did not know that before she joined Avalanche, did she? In fact, does she even learn during the Nibelheim Incident? I don't think she does. Cloud learns Sephiroth has learned his mother is "Jenova" and that "Jenova" just so happens to be sealed up inside the local reactor. Tifa only learns Sephiroth has gone mad and slaughtered her village.

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3:What happened to cloud most definitely effects her,just because they  are best friends,she does show concern and helps cloud alot,in fact cloud owes tifa big time for the help.When you think about it,it can't be easy seeing a olld  childhood friend of yours suffering from stigmatism and disoriented.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Again, she doesn't really know it that way. She never saw that kind of thing, for her first contact with Cloud with (altered) memories was finding him disorientated in the train station. When he smartened up all the fake memories slid into place and Cloud's demeanour at the start of the game changed entirely.

There's the fact that their "real" past was of not being the closest of friends anyway. Their memories of their past were supposedly altered by Jenova. Now, there's some possibilty the truth is the other way around and that the past was altered... To make them think the real past was fake. But that's a separate debate. Either way, this is a motiviation that doesn't quite fit properly IMO.

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4:Save the planet from pollution and immenent  destruction.

Combined with 1, to an already emotionally traumatised young woman, whatever she was told about the Shinra, who Sephiroth worked for, would have been true the more evil it was. The claims of Mako reactors killing the planet could have been complete horsecrap and she'd still have that reason. Her sole reason is mental trauma. Everything else is just fuel to that primary drive, an excuse.

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Barret:

He too has a pretty strong reason too no?

We'll see.

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1:Stop corruption

Yes. Let's halt corruption by blowing up the pawns used in that corruption rather than the corrupter themselves. If we destroy everything they cannot abuse it! Great logic, Mister Wallace. That'd certainly lead to a Serious Fraud Office investigation if the Shinra were a British company!

No, wait, it'd lead to an MI5 investigation.

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2:To make a pollution free environment where his child and his children's children  can live without risk.


I always felt like he was the most family man in the game.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Except of course that his only child is adopted. Probably illegally but hey.

On top of that his actual reason is trauma too. His town was destroyed too... but this time, it was DELIBERATE of the Shinra. And if anything we should be thankful it was Barret who got in with the loopy Environmentalist crowd and not Dyne or we'd have saw FF7 open with a mushroom cloud over Midgar.

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Cloud:

1:Of course he lost friends and family if they were in that town.

Trauma again, but his initial motivations were simply money, though of course some of the above related to Tifa has an effect on that. His motives for fighting the Shinra consist entirely of tagalong. Nibelheim and saving the planet is largely secondary initially, to his own self centred reasons. When Sephiroth re-emerges, it's ultimately revenge combined with the pretence of saving the world. We don't learn he seeks the Black Materia until we learn it exists. For some reason Cloud and Co. simply start chasing him. Cloud even admits it's to "settle the score" and just because "that'll save the Planet" Barret follows. He's surprisingly trusting, but given that "saving the planet" is his own trauma-induced excuse...

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2:Aerith,the girl of his dreams murdered by sephiroth,if he was controlled,this would have never happened

Quite apart from the "girl of his dreams" bit being debatable, Cloud's primary goal is to defeat Sephiroth. Not the Shinra. They are at best secondary. That's just another reason.

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Now i can't   garantee that the disorientation would be from the failed experiments,but it might have helped make it worse.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

It did, because it's the main reason that Jenova could mess with his mind so easily... Apparently.

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What do you think guys?

Leave your comments and ideas

What do I think?

The whole mob of them are mad terrorist bastards or revenge-fuelled lunatics. AVALANCHE aren't freedom fighters. They are driven by nothing but trauma and hatred, and have clearly elected to disregard the safety of the very people they claim to be saving during their fight. Bombing the reactors killed dozens, if not hundreds, of people as well as causing power outages. The guards killed in the line of duty were no more than poor schmucks making a living.

And that's why they wasted a perfectly good plot. Rather than having the enemy be a "faceless" corporation but really be the morality of the party's actions, a more traditional single-enemy emerged, discarding something that could have been more philosophical than farcical as the expansions have become. Not to say that black and grey morality is gone, but when Sephiroth shows up a murky questionable plot becomes something clearer cut, even if the game takes its sweet time to make him a threat to the whole planet.

I think the struggle against the Shinra can be compared to V for Vendetta. Not the movie, that was a "freedom fighters yay" anti GW Bush tirade disguised as an entertaining film in terms of its message, but the graphic novel. In that, V knows three things. That he is killing innocents, that the government aren't very nice, and that the government is all that's between the country and chaos.

Of course, the Shinra don't have any of Norsefire's buzzword problems, the fact they're not nice has to be explained a little helps, but their" not nice" is ultimately objective. They are a large corporation, making billions, allegedly exploiting the poor and pumping pollutants into the air - Which to some is either reality of evil corporations or reality of the needs of capitalism. Norsefire's not nice is "they god rid of all the non-whites" and that's pretty much the simple answer of why they're bastards.

But Norsefire get somewhat justified. Norsefire are needed. Without them, the UK collapses entirely. Riots in the streets, mass starvation, rampant crime. V's views are that actual Anarchy could work, IE without leaders, not without order.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

And before the novel ends, we don't see an end to Chaos or a start to Anarachy

.

What justifications do the Shinra have? Well, they're pretty much the world government. They are the world employer. Without them, the world should collapse into chaos. AVALANCHE's actions could easily have led not to the fall of the Shinra and world freedom, but chaos, as Shinra Army commanders try to carve their own empires out. Criminal organisations do the same.

Law and order would fall if the Shinra did, and I see no evidence in game to suggest that the fall of the world government would be as clean as Advent Children and the rest of the Complication indicates. If AVALANCHE had brought them down through a terror campaign, rather than the Shinra falling as a result of the Meteor crisis, we could have had civil war, because even if they'd been able to weaken the Shinra, chances are they could have just caused power plays and civil war.

In short, AVALANCHE are short sighted revenge fuelled extremists with an ideological motive not entirely thought through. Even Norsefire may be the lesser of two evils, and the reason V brings them down is that he is insane. The members of AVALANCHE had their own traumas.

The reason, therefore, is madness. The outcome would have been madness too.

Quote (Quad @ 28th August 2010 23:01)

Obviously they all have reasons for doing what they do; you don't go blowing up an eighth of a city without a good reason.

True, but just because it's a good reason to you, is it a good reason to everyone else? Seemed perfectly reasonable to the Shinra to drop Sector 7 to kill AVALANCHE. Seemed reasonable to burn down Corel because their reactor exploded.

This post has been edited by Del S on 29th August 2010 11:27

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"Only the dead have seen the end of their quotes being misattributed to Plato."
-George Santayana

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here..."
-Abraham Lincoln, prior to the discovery of Irony.

It ever occurred to me at the time, of course, but the first few hours of VII really do seem to justify terrorism, and if you get too lucid it's sort of unsettling listening to Barret rah-rah about saving the planet while setting off a bomb in a neighborhood reactor. Even odder is that the concept of Avalanche (or 'Averlanche' if you believe the Sector 6 graffiti) seems to pretty much vanish once the crew leaves Midgar. Why the heck does Barret go along with Cloud? He just drops his plan and follows this loopy spiky-headed dude on his search for an even-loopier super soldier. Maybe I'm forgetting some important scene (I admit it's been too long since I've played VII) but for a man that builds up his ideals, Shinra fades more and more into the background for Mr. Wallace, fading after Junon, flaring up a bit in Corel, and then vanishing altogether. What's even odder is that Shinra still seems to be tailing THEM, but the team formerly known as Avalanche could care less! "We're chasin' after this Norman Bates boy, fool! Got no time for your sinister corporation!"

I like Del's comparison to V for Vendetta, except I'd say in VII the lines of good and evil are much more well-defined than in any Alan Moore comic. The game plays out more like the V movie, with Cloud and co. all good and righteous (even committing terrorist acts!!) and Shinra, where the most 'good natured' member in their employ is Palmer (And yeah Reeve too, but that doesn't count).

Freaky business!

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"If art doesn't risk upsetting expectations and challenging its audience, it can only stagnate."

Quote (Del S @ 29th August 2010 06:25)

Quote (Quad @ 28th August 2010 23:01)

Obviously they all have reasons for doing what they do; you don't go blowing up an eighth of a city without a good reason.

True, but just because it's a good reason to you, is it a good reason to everyone else? Seemed perfectly reasonable to the Shinra to drop Sector 7 to kill AVALANCHE. Seemed reasonable to burn down Corel because their reactor exploded.

I'd misremembered something. I thought Avalanche had taken out Sector 7 in one of their "destroy it if it's Shinra's" moves, which shows that if nothing else I need to play the game again. In any case, I'm sure Shinra thought they had a good idea in taking out the plate, even though it failed (well, sort of. It did kill 3 members of a 6-man group). But to kill hundreds, maybe thousands of innocents for 3 targets? No, I don't think anyone lower-ranked than Palmer in the Shinra hierarchy would agree that it was a good idea. The people living under the plates certainly didn't.

--------------------

Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
FFVI
FFVII
FFIX
FFX
FF Tactics: Advance 2
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest 8
Dragon Quest 11
Super Mario RPG

Quote (Quad @ 28th August 2010 23:01)

They're freedom fighters. Obviously they all have reasons for doing what they do; you don't go blowing up an eighth of a city without a good reason. Cloud thought he'd been a SOLDIER, Barret wanted to protect Marlene, Tifa wanted in a sense to protect Cloud, Aerith's mother had been killed by Shinra, Vincent hated Hojo, Yuffie's home country was ruined by Shinra, Nanaki had been taken from his home and experimented upon, Cid had his dream to go into space ruined twice (first by Shera, then by Palmer. And who does Palmer work for?), and, finally, Cait Sith, who was originally a traitor anyway but

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Reeve changed his mind

.

I wonder what Biggs, Wedge, and Jesse joined Avalanche though. They don't exactly live long enough to have much character depth.

No:
Cloud wanted to attack Shin-Ra because he was getting paid(he's a mercenary, after-all)
Barret wanted to destroy Shin-Ra because he wanted to protect the planet

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

He wanted to destroy Sephiroth and Meteor to protect Marlene

Not just in a sense, Tifa just wanted Cloud full stop.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

Cait Sith is a stuffed toy controlled by Reeve

None of the other characters

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

were even involved with the destruction of the sector 8 reactor

Quote (Quad @ 29th August 2010 17:17)

I'd misremembered something. I thought Avalanche had taken out Sector 7 in one of their "destroy it if it's Shinra's" moves, which shows that if nothing else I need to play the game again. In any case, I'm sure Shinra thought they had a good idea in taking out the plate, even though it failed (well, sort of. It did kill 3 members of a 6-man group). But to kill hundreds, maybe thousands of innocents for 3 targets? No, I don't think anyone lower-ranked than Palmer in the Shinra hierarchy would agree that it was a good idea. The people living under the plates certainly didn't.

AVALANCHE's base of operations is in Sector 7, hence '7th Heaven', so it would be ridiculous of them to destroy it.

I don't think anybody in Shin-Ra other than the higher-ups even knew about the plate being destroyed, since it was all blamed on AVALANCHE anyway. The point wasn't to take out just three members of AVALANCHE, it was to destroy their base(and hence morale); also the people living under the plates were poor and useless, so no-one cared.

Quote (iSeizmik)

No:
Cloud wanted to attack Shin-Ra because he was getting paid(he's a mercenary, after-all)

Perhaps. I like to think there's more to it than that.

Quote (iSeizmik)

Barret wanted to destroy Shin-Ra because he wanted to protect the planet

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

He wanted to destroy Sephiroth and Meteor to protect Marlene

He wanted to protect the planet for Marlene.

Quote (iSeizmik)

Not just in a sense, Tifa just wanted Cloud full stop.

Sure, but she also clearly knew something was wrong with him and wanted to help, regardless of her feelings.

Quote (iSeizmik)

None of the other characters

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

were even involved with the destruction of the sector 8 reactor

But they joined Avalanche, and its original purpose was to fight Shinra. They all joined to fight Shinra, at least originally. Sephiroth was a side mission until it became more important, I'd argue. And it was the sectors 1 and 5 reactors, by the way.

Quote (iSeizmik)

The entire second post

Like I said, I misremembered. I haven't played in 5 years. Sorry to have so dearly offended you.

--------------------

Squenix games completed:

FFIII
FFIV
FFVI
FFVII
FFIX
FFX
FF Tactics: Advance 2
Chrono Trigger
Dragon Quest 8
Dragon Quest 11
Super Mario RPG

Quote

The whole mob of them are mad terrorist bastards or revenge-fuelled lunatics. AVALANCHE aren't freedom fighters. They are driven by nothing but trauma and hatred, and have clearly elected to disregard the safety of the very people they claim to be saving during their fight. Bombing the reactors killed dozens, if not hundreds, of people as well as causing power outages. The guards killed in the line of duty were no more than poor schmucks making a living.

To be fair the party is called out on exactly this in the game itself. By Reeve, no less. It was written that way on purpose to make AVALANCHE's earlier actions seem like the methods of nutjobs compared to their much nobler later goals of saving the planet.

Either way, Square has taken pretty extreme pains throughout the Compilation, much less the original game, to establish that Shinra are a couple of dicks and that they needed to go, one way or the other. Sephiroth coming to screw things up and Shinra going down as a side effect was a blessing in disguise almost.

This post has been edited by Tryscal The Great on 3rd September 2010 05:57

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//www.rpgmaker.net/
We make games. Period.

Quote (trismegistus @ 29th August 2010 12:29)

It ever occurred to me at the time, of course, but the first few hours of VII really do seem to justify terrorism, and if you get too lucid it's sort of unsettling listening to Barret rah-rah about saving the planet while setting off a bomb in a neighborhood reactor. Even odder is that the concept of Avalanche (or 'Averlanche' if you believe the Sector 6 graffiti) seems to pretty much vanish once the crew leaves Midgar. Why the heck does Barret go along with Cloud? He just drops his plan and follows this loopy spiky-headed dude on his search for an even-loopier super soldier. Maybe I'm forgetting some important scene (I admit it's been too long since I've played VII) but for a man that builds up his ideals, Shinra fades more and more into the background for Mr. Wallace, fading after Junon, flaring up a bit in Corel, and then vanishing altogether. What's even odder is that Shinra still seems to be tailing THEM, but the team formerly known as Avalanche could care less! "We're chasin' after this Norman Bates boy, fool! Got no time for your sinister corporation!"

I like Del's comparison to V for Vendetta, except I'd say in VII the lines of good and evil are much more well-defined than in any Alan Moore comic. The game plays out more like the V movie, with Cloud and co. all good and righteous (even committing terrorist acts!!) and Shinra, where the most 'good natured' member in their employ is Palmer (And yeah Reeve too, but that doesn't count).

Freaky business!

I'm pretty sure you are.

Possible spoilers: highlight to view

You're missing the point where Barret realizes that this is wrong, in one of the airship cutscenes during the end of disc 2. Barret says that he killed innocent people, and then the party decides to save Midgar from total destruction. He then decides that his whole reason for battling Shinra and killing Sephiroth is for Marlene.

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Praise Be To Helix!

I always liked Final Fantasy 7 for this; in that every single character resembles the multifaceted effect that Shinra had on the world. These are the reasons I believe that AVALANCHE is fighting.

Barret: Now, his up-front reason is to stop the pollution, and the draining of the Lifestream. Straightforward, and semi-true. He wants Marlene to have a good life. However, when you go to his home town, you see how the reactor ruined his life, and his friendship. So, while it does have a side-effect of saving the planet, it was also for his own revenge.

Tifa: She could be chalked up to following Barret and Cloud, to spice up her life, but it is also for the horror and destruction that happened to Nibelheim by Sephiroth. She doesn't care about Seph's turmoil, all she cares about is that her hometown, along with her father, was ended by him, and she'll kick his ass for it. Shinra caused all this, so she's going to them to try to end it.

Cloud: Cloud was beginning to see the great side of life, and he was getting to Aeris' point of life, when Sephiroth ended it. Cloud, realizing that Sephiroth destroyed everything he did in life drove him to finding and killing him. Again, Sephiroth's condition was caused by Shinra, and Shinra is trying to stop him from killing Sephiroth, which means they need to go.

Now, these are the first three, however the others also can have their reasons explained.

Aeris: Her ties to the Planet were incredible, and when something is wrong with it, she is driven to correct it.

Red XIII: He had a calm, peaceful life at Cosmo Canyon, until Shinra took him and experimented on him. Left, tampered with, he seeks revenge to the disruption of his life.

Yuffie: As her home town fought with Shinra and lost, she saw her noble, warrior's town turned into a cheap tourist's spot, she decided to go and rebuild Wutai's strength to restore it's former glory.

Cait Sith: Reeve was sent at the beginning to spy on the party, however he saw the other's reasons for doing it, and he was moved by the act. Along with Shinra desecrating his work for their own gain, he grew to see the group's side, and changed sides.

Vincent: He was part of the Turks, which assigned him to Lucrecia, and showed him the love of his life. Then, not only does she die, but Vincent's life and mind are warped into monstrous remnants of themselves. Needless to say, he wants some answers.

Cid: Well, his whole life was to go into space, Shinra says "Sure, we'll do it.", then not only do they take that dream away, but they take what little he had left with them. So, he thinks 'Screw them.' Quite reasonable to me.

These are, of course, only my opinions.

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Quote

The whole mob of them are mad terrorist bastards or revenge-fuelled lunatics. AVALANCHE aren't freedom fighters. They are driven by nothing but trauma and hatred, and have clearly elected to disregard the safety of the very people they claim to be saving during their fight. Bombing the reactors killed dozens, if not hundreds, of people as well as causing power outages. The guards killed in the line of duty were no more than poor schmucks making a living.

To be fair the party is called out on exactly this in the game itself. By Reeve, no less. It was written that way on purpose to make AVALANCHE's earlier actions seem like the methods of nutjobs compared to their much nobler later goals of saving the planet.

Even before that Barret repents in Cosmo Canyon by the fire. I think his transition from brute to repentant planet-saver is pretty well executed. He still comes across as thuggish but there's more to him. He has feelings and, importantly, he actually acts like a human being, which is really saying something.

Avalanche is not totally forgotten throughout the game, Barret does say that Avalanche is 'born again' in the same Cosmo Canyon fire scene. I like that idea. It's like the deaths of Biggs, Wedge and Jessie were so important that it killed Avalanche and along with them their tactics and base, yet afterwards they make a revival with new methods and new members. I agree that it could've been a little more consistent. There are times where Shinra, or the Turks etc have referred to the team as Cloud. It would probably be better if they were called Avalanche throughout, but then equally it might seem a little cheap to give them a name. It's a bit like Power Rangers.

Overall, the motives of Avalanche in the beginning and the rest of the team are simply just to save the planet, and those living on it by extension. They become the planet's guardians. I think it's consistent with the environmental theme of the game for them to be fighting for the planet first and their own families and vengeances second. They realise that their survival and the survival of those they care about is intertwined with the planet's. I'll admit that at first this is not the case, but those who don't see it that way (Cloud) are ultimately convinced.

Quote (trismegistus)

Maybe I'm forgetting some important scene (I admit it's been too long since I've played VII) but for a man that builds up his ideals, Shinra fades more and more into the background for Mr. Wallace, fading after Junon, flaring up a bit in Corel, and then vanishing altogether. What's even odder is that Shinra still seems to be tailing THEM, but the team formerly known as Avalanche could care less! "We're chasin' after this Norman Bates boy, fool! Got no time for your sinister corporation!"

Yeah you're forgetting a few. They do get captured by them and there's plenty of hate there. Also I remember near the beginning of disc 2 he's shivering at the bottom of the northern mountain outside the climber's hut, and he says maybe Shinra isn't so bad, then corrects himself. A major instance is when Barret and co thwart Shinra's plans to use the Huge Materia. Like I said before, the priority is protecting the planet, whoever is threatening it. Sephiroth is usually more immediate. It's a three-way tussle between Sephiroth, Shinra and Avalanche if you want to call them that.

This post has been edited by sweetdude on 24th November 2010 02:48

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Scepticism, that dry rot of the intellect, had not left one entire idea in his mind.

Me on the Starcraft.

A good scene is just before you go to fight Seph, when everyone leaves to say bye to their families and such. They talk about their reasons to fight, and Cloud does admit its mainly for revenge, but that doesnt matter because good will happen because of it.
I reckon by the end of the game everyone's motives are good, though they may not have started that way. Even the Turks (final fight scene in midgar) dont fight you if you decide to let them, they realise there is more important things than ShinRa.