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Why does someone else have to obey you?

Posted: 31st December 2017 10:29

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I think this topic has been coming for a long time.

Why does someone else have to obey you? I'm talking in terms of gaming.

The military and other organizations have command structures. You can get punished for not following orders. ECT.

In terms of games you can play at your leisure how is any author suppose to know what you specifically like?

I know how you feel about games. I've also been in that situation. I can have my cake and eat it too. Though some of it might be too sweet or bland at times.

Since many people aren't going to obey me they will learn from their mistakes or succeed anyway. In any case thanks for trying or keep up the good work. biggrin.gif

This not only applies to creating a game but also playing in it.

This post has been edited by Eagle Caller on 31st December 2017 10:52

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Posted: 31st December 2017 20:53

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Omega Weapon
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Okay, I'm going to say this plain and simple.

Your posts tend to not make very much sense. And this is a good example.

"I think this topic has been coming for a long time."
I don't know about you but this topic sorta appeared out of the blue for me. Why do you feel this topic "has been coming for a long time"?

"Why does someone have to obey you? I'm talking in terms of gaming."
Who obeying whom?

"In terms of games you can play at your leisure how is any author suppose to know what you specifically like?"
What does this have to do with obedience? Are you talking the players obeying the creator? Or are you talking about the players obeying the rules of the game? Or are you talking about the game (dis)obeying a player's intentions?

"I know how you feel about games. I've also been in that situation. I can have my cake and eat it too. Though some of it might be too sweet or bland at times."
1. How does "how I feel about games" relate to the topic of obedience?
2. How do you know how I feel about games?
3. What does "have my cake and eat it too" mean with regards to games? Same question for "too sweet or bland". What do these metaphors mean?

"Since many people aren't going to obey me they will learn from their mistakes or succeed anyway."
Wait, how is this about obeying you? I thought this topic was about games and gaming in general.

"In any case thanks for trying or keep up the good work."
????? I'm just thoroughly confused what you mean.

"This not only applies to creating a game but also playing in it. "
...are you referencing other threads where you feel that other people disagree with your opinions on games, and now you're obliquely mentioning those threads by making another thread about it?

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Posted: 1st January 2018 00:38

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Why does someone else have to obey you?  I'm talking in terms of gaming.

In terms of games you can play at your leisure how is any author suppose to know what you specifically like?

Absolutely nobody has said that, not even in the thread you clearly used as inspiration to create this one. You've created this strawman in your own head.

There's possibly an interesting argument to be made here about whether games are created for the audience or for the creator - just as all forms of creative expression are. That might be an interesting conversation, though I don't think this is likely the place to have it as there's probably no lifeline to throw this particular thread.

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Since many people aren't going to obey me they will learn from their mistakes or succeed anyway.  In any case thanks for trying or keep up the good work. biggrin.gif

I have a strong suspicion you have the cause and effects backwards here, just from what little I've interacted with you. You might want to check your work before turning it in.

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Posted: 1st January 2018 05:56

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey)
Okay, I'm going to say this plain and simple.

Your posts tend to not make very much sense. And this is a good example.


Quote (Rangers51)
There's possibly an interesting argument to be made here about whether games are created for the audience or for the creator - just as all forms of creative expression are. That might be an interesting conversation, though I don't think this is likely the place to have it as there's probably no lifeline to throw this particular thread.


These two statements together are why I'm frustrated. I think that the topic of control is an extremely interesting and important one, whether we are talking about political control, video game player freedom, or authorship. That's a topic that I would love to talk about on CoN. But the problem is, I'm confused by your posts. You seem to have deeply philosophical questions at times, which is cool, but the ideas are not complete, and they're usually followed by bragging about your gaming skills.

But I know it's not my place to say anything. Ironically, I have no control over you, so I can't do anything except answer the best and clearest way I can. So, with that being said, I want to try and address the topic. I think that there are rewards and punishments in most video games, and creators are able to exert some control over the game, even in sandbox games. Game designers can make various cues, markers, and rewards to get players where they want them to go. For instance, I just started Breath of the Wild. In the game, after you progress a while, you could go to Hyrule Castle. But the characters explicitly warn you not to go, and it turns you towards other places. Similarly, in World of Ruin in FFVI, you don't have to get any other character than Celes, Sabin, and Edgar. Yet, the game drops hints about the other characters' whereabouts, and rewards you for regaining theme. So, on one hand, the player's freedom appears to be an illusion. But on the other, pathways can be suggested without the player being coerced. This is one of the best things about video games: designers and players combine to create a collaborative experience.

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Posted: 7th January 2018 03:19

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Eagle Caller, I am just going to head straight to my point. The lack of clarity in your posts leads me to wonder if you are seriously trying to stimulate interesting discussions. You are posting poorly strung together ideas on the forums and calling them topics, and then, when asked for clarification, you refuse to give any.

I don't know how to answer what you're saying because you aren't leading me from the general, familiar ideas I might know of to the specific idea or ideas you wish to highlight in a proper, clearly delineated way.

You can't just dump words on the page and call it your first brush stroke. Rewrite, man, rewrite! Rewrite before posting, and ask yourself as you do so "if someone isn't sure what I'm trying to say, how can I make it clearer?" Just because you get the mental shorthand you seem to use doesn't mean other people will. Read your post from an outsider's perspective. Edit yourself, until you get it yourself.

( biggrin.gif lol I made that up.)

I might also add that posting while tired, depressed or otherwise impaired is rarely fodder for a lively topic. Take it from someone who has screwed it up every way imaginable: Rewrite.

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Posted: 16th January 2018 02:40

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Look what I've done.

I think I should return to playing games. Instead of solving problems I've only made them haphazard. I tried but it might not have worked.

I guess I'm trying to hard to find a permanent answer to questions.

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Posted: 19th January 2018 01:03

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I'm sorry if I sounded harsh on you, but I honestly have trouble understanding what you post.

Here's what I'm noticing:

* Your posts tend to contain sentences that kinda make sense on their own, but feel strangely disconnected, so I can't tell what your overall point is. For example:
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All related to the point I'm making. Like almost everything you must struggle with it. No matter the setting it is designed challenging enough and fun enough to play. At least to the standards of games at the time. It has struggles.

Are you talking about the game (Chrono Cross in this case, presumably) "struggling" to be enjoyable because it's poorly designed? Are you talking about the player struggling to complete the game due to the game being challenging? Are you talking about the story involving the struggles the characters go through?

* Sometimes you say things that seem to be unrelated to the point, in strange directions, such as "I'll add emoticons to sound more human." and "This might have to do with being a male but I figure out the combat system first and who my enemies are. I can always figure out the story later/at the same time." This makes me wonder if you are speaking your mind, without doing much to organize your thoughts so as to make them more easily understandable.

* The words you use tend to be strange choices. "It has struggles." is an example of a strange phrasing, because it is very conceptual but lacks context -- usually, conceptual statements like that have some specific context(s) that justify them, but this one doesn't, so your meaning is vague. "While the game might not be ideal, some kind of creativity is introduced." is another example.

* It seems you frequently speak in metaphors and generalities. For example, you speak of "solving problems", and "find[ing] a permanent answer to questions", but haven't really made it clear what those problems and questions are, specifically. An example of a sweeping statement is "I also don't consider all views subjective. That's diminishing the quality of the person. If there is an ideal game for an ideal person then it's only real for as long as either exist.", which is also an example of two different ideas that seem jumbled together in the same line. Overall it sounds like you make a lot of lofty, general statements, very easily, and I can't tell whether that's what you mean, or if you are just trying to highlight a specific situation (e.g. criticizing a specific game).

I'd like to have a conversation about various topics you've raised, because they seem like interesting topics, but it's hard for me to figure out how to respond when they are written in these ways.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 19th January 2018 01:04

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Posted: 21st January 2018 03:04

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I believe there are exactly two possibilities.

1. Eagle Caller is a human being purposely stringing us all along with this ridiculous nonsense.

Or

2. Eagle Caller's posts are artificially generated.

Or some combination of the two. Ban please?

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Posted: 21st January 2018 09:27

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Okay, if you're going to do away with politeness, then I guess I'll volunteer my hypothesis: he/she has a mental condition which makes communication difficult.

This is really not that uncommon.

Moderator Edit
Nobody said anything about doing away with politeness! Therefore, I'll spare any hypothesizing of my own. -R51


Edit (response): I actually meant this as a more sympathetic perspective than Spooniest's post, which I felt was rather rude. I had thought this before he posted, but I didn't want to say it since I was afraid I might come across as rude, but after he posted, I didn't want people to hate on Eagle Caller so I wanted to post something that might be more sympathetic.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 27th January 2018 18:41

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Posted: 17th March 2018 06:40

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Well, they have the talent to make the game in the first place. If we had such a talent, we could make our own games to our own liking if we wanted. Everything the developers create is also fresh stimuli for our minds that we might not be able to imagine on our own

However, we do not really need to obey game developers. Nobody put a gun to our head, and say we must play the game, or else. We can always elect to not play their games. The problem is that if we do no have something to do, we can be rather bored. They are simply proposing a challenge or activity as a solution to our problem, and we can take it or leave it. Having somebody else devise the rules for the challenge helps to ensure that that it is a relatively fair and surprising one.

In addition to being able to choose one of many other of the more leisurely hobbies, we have many, many different developers at present. If they customize the game to their personal preferences, then the end result is that we get many thousands of games to choose to play, and the likelihood is that each of us can find something that we personally like. Well written reviews and demo versions can help with the selection process if we are not sure what to buy ahead of time.

This post has been edited by Tonepoet on 28th March 2018 12:33

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Posted: 22nd March 2018 15:34

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Hm, it now occurs to me that I didn't have the patience or manners at the time that person ought to, I apologize and will try to actually answer in a straightforward manner

Obedience can be defined for the purposes of the OP as "receiving a directive and executing it without any questions except those required to execute it."

Now, I'll take apart that sentence.

"Receiving a directive"

When we push buttons on the controller, we are giving directives to the game. This is the relevant part of gaming, all told. If you can't interact with the game, it's not much of a game, right? But pushing buttons that just make things happen on screen is a simulated fireworks display, so the game has to give you some kind of indication of what it wants you to do to play, as well. Back when games couldn't hold much text, they depended on visual cues in the level design to do this. Mario starts all the way to the left, the timer is on the right, and attempting to walk left does nothing. So, right away SMB1 is telling the player "walk right." The game gives you these cues in unobtrusive ways that seem like just a game world or whatever, but they are in fact directives from the designers on what you're supposed to do. So, the game directs you, you direct the Player Character, and the cycle of communication that results is the game.

"And executing it without any questions"

If you are taking the time to question the cues the game is giving you, you aren't really playing so much as trying to learn about the game. So following the cues you're given, and learning them, and learning when to use them and when they are traps based on your expectation of what they are directing you to do (i.e., misdirections, a common form of trap in a game), is basically the game, but you won't be playing until you start trying to execute some kind of response to the cues (or directives) you are getting from the game.

"Except those required to execute it [the directive]"

And here's where the fun part comes in. When you don't understand the cues the game is giving you, naturally you will have questions. The number of possible answers or responses you can give is determined simply this way: how many different buttons are on the controller? How to you give a player the ability to interact with the game in response to the visual/audio/other kinds of directives you give them? This is the process of designing gameplay.

I think that kind of answers what you asked, a little. Sorry for the jackassery. Tough personal stuff that I don't feel to speak of has been going on with me.

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