CoN 20th Anniversary: 1997-2017
Lets talk about final fantasy

Posted: 8th July 2017 23:18

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I have been wondering about something.Lately i'm hearing a lot of bad things about squeenix involved in other games they bought like hitman, and i'm wondering:Is Squeenix on its way to doom? Do you think there is hope for the series?

I don't know if maybe i'm wrong and just being too pessimistic.It helps i didn't buy FFXV, but i don't trust the franchise name anymore.I used to have faith in the final fantasy franchise, and think of it as something that can do no wrong, but i started to have doubts starting with FFX.

I'm even worried that Square enix wil mess up Final fantasy 7(Their top selling game, which is the most popular) If they ruin the remake, then what hope is there for any other games in the series? I've heard some positive things about FFXV, but i don't know if i simply grew out of it.I see some here who like the newer installments.

Part of my dissatisfaction i admit has to do with yoichi wada nobuo uematsu and amano leaving square enix.The series feels more alien than ever without them, and i don't feel a connection to the series.I could feel some connection in FFX and before.

I found this link that is interesting talking about some things that happened in inside of making FFXV when it was still being made.

Tabata says

I found this too.I'm reading it now and has some interesting stuff.

Dates with events of what happened.

What are your thoughts guys?



This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 9th July 2017 11:04

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Posted: 10th July 2017 08:59

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There is a moment that will come, when someone will become the driver of this crazy runaway rollercoaster, whom realizes that SE have painted themselves into a corner, and can't get away with the crazy antics and sloppy remakes they've been putting out.

"Please the old time fans first, or you scare away the rest and alienate the entire market."

Now doesn't it seem like this is exactly what has happened since Spirits Within came out? SE have focused on driving the series into the ground going after every new trend they could think of, trying to rope in as many demographics as possible, utterly min-maxing the series into oblivion.

...The old fans are married, have jobs, kids, mortgages, careers, things that leave them with little time for fanning it up about the classic Squaresoft days. But at some moment, some 'planets all aligned' type of moment, somebody over there is gonna say "Let's do this right for a change."

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Posted: 13th July 2017 22:02

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Isn't there a way to find a middle ground? one to keep old fans happy and bring in new fans?

I understand that newer fans are interested in different things, but alienating the old fans that might want to come back might not be the best thing.



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Posted: 14th July 2017 18:40

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Final Fantasy should be itself, instead of trying to change.

They're the ones who suck, Final Fantasy!

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Posted: 4th August 2017 07:29

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I've heard various amounts of hand-wringing by fans concerning game companies, game franchises, and so on. Looking back at it it's usually inconsequential. Or, at most, a blip on the radar of my experiences. They said that Sonic was dead. They said that JRPGs were dead. They said that PC gaming was dead in Japan. They said that consoles were dead. They said that platformers were dead. And so on.

These days I'm hesitant to put much stock into the notion that a game company can "ruin" a well-established franchise. I don't trust much that it can do a spectacular job that will match the hype of its predecessors either. It's usually somewhere in that middle -- unless the original game was unheralded and not that great to start with.

This post has been edited by Glenn Magus Harvey on 4th August 2017 07:33

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Posted: 4th August 2017 16:13

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When you see mistalker with some guys who were ex square enix members making an rpg, Lost odyssey has more heart than FFXIII definitely.It felt like it had the magic.

Then again:Wether Jrpgs die or not:I don't know.I think they will survive somehow, i mean we got other series other than final fantasy, and other companies like the guys who made shin megami tensei series, tale series or what about grandia? there is also the guys who made dark souls and yes they are japanese, because they also made kings field.

I think the issue is keeping up to date with turn based rpgs.I heard some liked tales of vesperia( i personally played the demo saw a bunch of teenage boys with ridiculous hair cuts and voices of boys who either haven't hit puberty or barely and i lost interest.

Don't get me wrong there has to be some great ideas out there on jrpgs, they just have to be careful to ont turn off too many non japanese european/american etc cultures as that will hurt their sales unless they only want to sell in japan.I think its possible square enix is making games for a teenage audience who live in japan, becausei can't relate to their games anymore.Popstars? modern times? karaoke and japanese haircut guys? yeah.

Also The loss of of major members hurt square enix.I think square enix is having a identity crisis.WIth ff1-X you can see a clear identity.

Movies aren't games:

I do like movies and i like some animes.I have seen the dragon ball series and dragon ball z and i saw a few episodes of dragon ball super which i'm holding off from seeing as the series hasn't fully aired all episodes in english and patient people are rewarded.

But i like a good mixture of gameplay and cutscenes.I like games that feel like games not like a bunch of linear movies, which is one reason i'm moving away from square enix.FF tactics is a example of a game that gives you good gameplay and walking around and story.I like choices and i feel like square enix rather than allow you choie wants to control your path and make you follow a linear path to tell you their story.This can work as long as you allow them a good amount of gameplay and have a really good story to tell.I feel like i can't fully trust them on not messing up on making interestin characters.

I feel like the only advancement square has made is graphics, and it shows, but i feel like they aren't really anything other than flashy images akin to waving your keys in front of someone or fireworks.I do understand why graphics are important, as they can give atmosphere to a setting and give details breathing life into a world, but you must also ensure that if you are going to do that, there must be interaction with npcs and give a interesting background to the world and story, which i feel like square enix has neglected.

Lastly:I know there are going to be some people who like FFXIII-FFXIII-2 FFXIII-3 and FFXV, because lets face it, we all have our opinions.I think Ranger 51 liked FFXIII didn't he?

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 4th August 2017 16:24

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Posted: 5th August 2017 00:20

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Quote (MS)
Is Squeenix on its way to doom?

No, and this is why I say that: https://www.cavesofnarshe.com/forums/ipb/in...showtopic=17574

I don't expect this current year to be as impressive as the year reported in that post, because it's possible they don't have any huge tentpole games this fiscal year (since we don't know when KH3 is going to land, yet). Even so, the company is trending upward, not downward, and is profitable still.

Quote (MS)
Do you think there is hope for the series?

It's a little hard to tell right now, because there aren't any major brand-new Final Fantasy games announced now that XV is out (and successful). FF7 Remake will be what it is, but that's light-years away in game industry time and it's way too early to predict anything about what it might mean for the series, and, anyway, it is indeed a remake and therefore might not be indicative of any future ideas, either.

Quote (MS)
i don't trust the franchise name anymore.

Well, that should probably do it for you, then, really; I don't see any indication that the company is going to make major turns back towards the style of Final Fantasy that you prefer. They don't really need to, because they've been successful with their newer takes on it, and as you also mention in other posts there are other series that are still doing games that play a bit more like older turn-based JRPGs that you can play. Squenix aren't bound to try to fight in that market, at least not with their flagship. Seems like from what I know, though, you should probably get yourself a handheld and play some Bravely Default, if you're okay with the fact that those games don't have Final Fantasy in the title.

Quote (MS)
I'm even worried that Square enix wil mess up Final fantasy 7(Their top selling game, which is the most popular)

Yeah, it sold a ton of copies, and probably is the most popular, but I'm not sure that it's possible to really just draw a line and say that a if it is an undisputed fact. You could make arguments for other games in the series, too - for instance, XV actually sold five million units by the end of release day, so you could say that it was more immediately popular than VII (just as an example for why "most popular" isn't really something you can prove scientifically). Of course, your worry that they will "mess it up" is also subjective, but I think we already know enough about that game to know where you're going to land on that topic when it finally releases.

Quote (MS)

I found this link that is interesting talking about some things that happened in inside of making FFXV when it was still being made.

Tabata says

I also find this interesting, but I'm not sure if it's for the reason you did. Seems to me that Tabata had to work hard to convince people that they shouldn't look backwards towards what a good Final Fantasy game is, even within the company, because he believed that making the same game they did fifteen or twenty years ago would not be as successful. IMO, he's pretty much saying here that people who look at the games the way you do are wrong to do so, but that probably reflects some confirmation bias on my part.


This, I find to be well-researched and utterly pointless. Easy enough to take shots like that at the time it was written, but the company has bounced back quite a bit since that time, and even at its worst, it's not as if Squenix were circling the drain and preparing to close up shop. As I say, it's well-researched but biased.

Quote (Spooniest)
Now doesn't it seem like this is exactly what has happened since Spirits Within came out? SE have focused on driving the series into the ground going after every new trend they could think of, trying to rope in as many demographics as possible, utterly min-maxing the series into oblivion.

That's pretty loaded language, "driving the series into the ground." As I've said in probably a half-dozen threads by now, you're welcome to think that, but I don't think that it is borne out in an objective way. It's been over fifteen years since TSW. During that time, main-line Final Fantasy games alone have sold probably over thirty million copies. I haven't played every game with Final Fantasy in the title over the last fifteen years; some of them are probably just awful. But that's half the series' lifespan - if it were really being run into the ground, wouldn't they be done by now?

Quote (MS (later))
Isn't there a way to find a middle ground? one to keep old fans happy and bring in new fans?

That was clearly the goal with XV - they even put a splash screen during loading that says it: "A Final Fantasy for fans and first-timers." You can have your opinion on whether they were successful or not, but that's what they were actively trying to do. But again, I'll mention Bravely Default, which is widely mentioned as being a classic Final Fantasy game in all but name. If the Final Fantasy series isn't what a person wants any more, perhaps one of the company's other RPG lines still is. People shouldn't get too hung up on the name on the box.

Quote (GMH)
These days I'm hesitant to put much stock into the notion that a game company can "ruin" a well-established franchise. I don't trust much that it can do a spectacular job that will match the hype of its predecessors either. It's usually somewhere in that middle -- unless the original game was unheralded and not that great to start with.

Preach, brother. The bigger a franchise gets, no matter what one, the heavier the burden of expectation. There are certainly things I don't like about FFXV, for instance, but because I didn't expect it to be FFVII, or FFX, or whatever, I was able to look past most of them and enjoy the experience. Every game needn't be a grand, groundbreaking achievement over the top of its predecessor to be worth playing - with the possible exception of yearly iterations on sports games, maybe.

Quote (MS (later still))
I think the issue is keeping up to date with turn based rpgs.

Tiddles, were he someone with the energy to post in the forums most of the time, would tell you that maybe the matter is simply that people don't want very many turn-based RPGs any more. As I have said, there are still some out there, but it's not just Square Enix producing fewer of them, it's kind of everyone at the AAA level. Maybe because Squenix were successful in moving away from it, it helped hasten the demise. Or maybe it's the rise of Bioware-style games at the same time. Maybe it's a combination of a lot of things, and being frustrated at Square Enix is just an easy reaction. If you look at where turn-based RPGs are coming from now, I think it's mostly indie, smaller publishers, or smaller titles from bigger publishers, which might imply that it's no longer an interesting challenge for the big boys, unfettered by production budgets and hardware limitations. It's not that Squenix can't keep up to date - it's that it's no longer something that their directors and their marketers want to do.

As I've said in other threads, I kinda-sorta work in the games industry, though nothing like what Square Enix do. But I can see from where I sit that if the market research says that a game isn't likely to make money, it doesn't have much chance of being built unless the people making the game can really sell it to their colleagues as something that is so fresh, buyers don't even know they want it yet. Turn-based console RPGs aren't going to do that for anyone in a company as big as SE.

Quote (MS)
Lastly:I know there are going to be some people who like FFXIII-FFXIII-2 FFXIII-3 and FFXV, because lets face it, we all have our opinions.I think Ranger 51 liked FFXIII didn't he?

This is interesting, because to me this gets closest to the actual point. I'm sorry that you haven't liked any of the games that have carried the Final Fantasy name in fifteen years, but in that time, I would think that you would have come to accept that maybe they're just not going back? It's clear you play a lot of games, based on the number of threads you post about various ones - why is it that the changes in Final Fantasy are so significant among all the other amazing games to which we have access? I think that gaming right now is almost an embarrassment of riches.

And yes, I loved the XIII series. I have well over three hundred hours' time invested in that series on Xbox 360, and have the intention of someday going back to do more in the first XIII - even as one of those guys Spooniest mentions with a marriage, job, kid, mortgage, etc.! I also really enjoyed XV, even though the last few chapters were kind of a mess. But yet, before XV, the FF game I'd finished most recently was IX, and I still have unfinished games of I, III, and Crisis Core randomly thrown about. None of that really means anything, of course, other than possibly giving evidence as to why I just can't understand the thesis of this thread. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 5th August 2017 00:22

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Posted: 5th August 2017 00:45

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Nice of you to take a shot at my words here though they're pretty much taken back by what I said in the thread you linked.

Sigh. Depression.

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Posted: 5th August 2017 01:14

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Quote (Spooniest @ 4th August 2017 18:45)
Nice of you to take a shot at my words here though they're pretty much taken back by what I said in the thread you linked.

Sigh. Depression.

Sorry, wasn't my intent to make it personal. I disagree with you, but you are still welcome to think it. You're right, you did say that in the other thread, which I didn't remember when linking it. The comment I quoted here and disagreed with is the more recent of the two, but my apologies if that's not how you actually feel.

Edit
Oh, but your even more recent post in that other thread reiterates that feeling. OK, I guess I'm not sure which side of the coin you might fall on - I'll happily retract my rebuttal to you if we're actually in agreement. Not sure what's going on now.


This post has been edited by Rangers51 on 5th August 2017 01:18

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Posted: 5th August 2017 01:31

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You're such a neighborly guy Ranger, thanks for that

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Posted: 5th August 2017 10:23

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I want to comment something to ranger since he was answering:

the new the thing vs the old one.The new one was flashier had sped up events but wasn't as creepy as the original.They made it flashier and have more action, but ruined the atmosphere.

FF of ye old times had heart.I can't comment on FFXV because i never played it, but even tabata was worried about the series in a interview saying this is our last chance.

Tabata says

Wether or not he was exaggerating i dunno but i personally disagree with ranger.The reason trust in the series is questionable is because FFXIII crossed a line that made a lot of people lose faith in the series.

I did hear bad things about FFXIII-2 and lightning returns but i'l take it as hearsay because frankly:I haven't played enough of them.I played the demo of lightning returns and while ok i don't know the full story.

Also:I'm waiting for more info before i buy FFXV.I might actually buy but if i do and FFXV fails to impress me, i am not going to ev er buy a final fantasy game again.

And as for turn based:I don't do just turn based games, as i play a lot of real time games too, like dragon age unquisition for an example and mass effect.series.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 5th August 2017 10:24

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Posted: 7th August 2017 05:11

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I'm not worried about the Final Fantasy brand myself. As far as I can tell the games are still selling well and I for one am still having fun with them.

It's perfectly understandable that not everyone will feel the same. Looking at games like I, VII, and XV there isn't really much trying them together besides some recurring names and broad themes. It makes perfect sense that a fan of one title may not like others in the series because the series is so diverse.

When I go onto a FF I'm looking for fun battles, memorable characters, and a top notch soundtrack. So far I've found every game to succeed on at least one of those fronts and most often multiple.

I also believe a lot of the negativity is overblown at the time the games are released. I remember XII being very negatively compared to X for years on Gamefaqs but now I see tons of praise for it on the Zodiac Age re-release board. I've seen people giving the XIII saga another chance and liking it more a second time around.

This isn't to say that everyone will love every game of course. Just that initial online backlash doesn't necessarily reflect the success of a game. To this day I believe the only FF considered a failure by SE is the original launch of Final Fantasy XIV for which they apologized and remade the game to help preserve the brand.

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Posted: 7th August 2017 10:20

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Personally my feeling is:I still don't trust the final fantasy brand.Yeah you could point out FFXIII sold over 7 million copies(more than FF9 and almost as much as FF8, but that isn't always indicative if something is good or not.It might have just been hype.Lets see how many sales FFXIII-2 sold:

FFXIII-2
3.555

PS3/X360: 3.1


2013 Lightning Returns

PS3
X360
Steam

1.14

PS3/X360: 800,000[98][99]
Steam: 340,000[100]

73.2 [101] 75.3

Final Fantasy

NES
MSX
WS
PS
PSP
Android

2.49

NES: 1.1 million[10]
MSX: 200,000 (JP)[2]
WS/PS: 690,000[11]
PSP: 400,000[12]
Android: 100,000+[13]

140 [14] 295

How come lightning returns sold for as much as ff1?

and how come FFXIII-2 sold for less than ff6?

1994 Final Fantasy VI

SNES
PS
GBA
Android
Steam

3.9772

SNES/PS: 3.48 million[43]
GBA: 281,190 (JP)[19]
Android: 100,000+[44]
Steam: 116,010[45]

480 [46] 776

I can understand ff6 selling less during that time because it was less well known and ff7 made it more mainstream.Heck, you could argue ff9 is closer to ff6 and ff4 in heart, even if it sells for less than ff7.

Besides:FF7 isn't the top seller, FFX is with a whopping 15 million copies between FFX and FFX-2, and i still think FF7 is a better game than FFX anyways.



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Posted: 7th August 2017 19:47

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Magitek, I've tried, but I can't understand the list of figures you're quoting there. But, what I can say is that different games in different times with different market forces will sell different amounts. Sales can obviously be an indicator of quality and popularity, but aren't always and aren't solely - for example, cult media (games, films, whatever) are often low-selling when first released, and that's why they get called "cult" instead of simply being blockbusters.


To preface my opinions, I am a gamer who has played FFI-FFX, FFXII, FFXIII, and FFXV (plus a few others within the brand). I adore VI through IX. Initially, I disliked X, for its brash vocals (which I felt spoiled my imagination) and its (to my mind at the time) gimpy Californian doofus of a hero. But it grew on me and I love it. I like XII, though it is forgettable. XIII was visually impressive, but for reasons I've given repeatedly, I do not like it. However, I adore XV (flawed though it is). It is not the same style as VI through IX, but it's FF through and through.


So, based upon that, I feel I can say that:
1. Yes, I generally like recent FF games less than older FF games
2. I've given every game a shot, open-mindedly
3. New FF games can still capture my heart
4. I'm therefore looking at this pretty objectively

Do I think the series/Squenix is in danger? No. Objectively, it is profitable. Whether we like the output or not, it's making money and it's doing fine.

Is there a future for FF? Who knows. We'll see what/if/when FFXVI appears on the horizon. Whatever happens, the future just isn't going to be a turn-based, SNES/PSX era style RPG. Like Rangers said, processing power has advanced so far that such a game would be uninteresting to most gamers and most devs. For the same reason that nobody makes text-based RPGs any more, it just isn't going to happen - the gaming world has simply moved on.

Does that mean you/we have to like it? No, of course not. But we have to accept that us liking it is not the same is it being successful/popular/profitable. We aren't the entire fanbase, nor are we the only acceptable opinion. Some of us will like the direction the franchise is going, others won't. Both options are okay.

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Posted: 8th August 2017 08:40

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My point is that its possible that FFXIII because after buying it it recieved such poor reviews, that FFXIII-2 was effected and or maybe it was because FFXIII-2 was bad and FFXIII-3 lightning returns worse.

I keep hearing mixed reviews about FFXV.Some say buy others don't.I heard bad things about the story, something of which i really care about, and how some things are possibly in a animated series or something like that.

I know the car thing is true that you can't drive off road and are better off having your car on auto pilot, or for an example:Game forces you to go back at night.

Is that true? because if so:I'm not buying FFXV if i can't get the full story.

Visuals while important, what i really care about is the story and the characters.

Personally:I found tidus to be terrible.Yeah he had a different character type but he didn't have to be so gratingly annoying.I'l admit though i really really liked yuna and i respected jecht, even if he was a jerk to his son, he put his life on the line to try and save the world.He literally turned into sin for his capturers.Even when you consider how mean he was to tidus, sure he was awful to him at times, he just wanted tidus to grow up to be a successfull man(Typical father type) who wants their son to be whatever he couldn't be, or to be just like him.I actually felt legitimately sad when jecht died, but didn't care wen tidus disappeared.Thats not to say the game was bad, i thought the game was good and had many good areas.

Perhaps its best i not talk about FFXV in case i buy.I'm waiting for the dlc to make up my mind as i always do

Also:I do also sometimes play games for gameplay.Dark souls is one example where the story is so confusing and you have to kind of figure it out yourself that to me, the gameplay is a much stronger part.FF7 has strong gameplay as it takes ff5 job system and ff6's esper system and changes it for a good reason, and yes story is very important in 7, but i feel ff7 had a lot more gameplay focus than 6 as it was faster paced and long cool summons and at times the game made you take time off to look for stuff.



This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 8th August 2017 08:51

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We are stardust.Our bodies are made from the guts of exploding stars.

Neil Degrasse Tyson.
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