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FF tactics one of the most tragic ff?

Posted: 14th May 2012 10:11

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Anything that would essencially cause grief to delita,causes grief to ramza,because ramza i feel really cared about teta and delita.

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When teta was killed,it created grief for both,more so for delita.
Watching delita hurt and try and go after the bad guy to bring justice to his sister,is sad since delita was a good guy,but he was put in a terrible position.

Then we also find out that gafgarion sold out,and cares nothing for honor or nobility.This too hurts both delita and ramza,because he was one of the most reknowned knights.

Then a stake was driven between delita and ramza,causing delita to wander off and hate and distrust ramza.Ramza was just trying to do what was good.

Then ramza finds out that he was just a pawn doing zalbag's evil wishes conquer the other country


What do you guys think? do you guys think that ff tactics is easily one of the most tragic? The characters situation sort of reminds me of suikoden 2,or:suikoden 2 reminds me of ff tactics since it probably came before suikoden 2.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 14th May 2012 10:12

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Posted: 18th May 2012 09:19

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I didn't care much about the Teta/Delita story because I grew a strong dislike for Delita during the course of the game...

I was more sad
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When Zalbaag died tongue.gif
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Posted: 22nd May 2012 00:39

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Teta wasn't evil,and it hurts ramza.
And delita was tragic,because he maybe a bit at the least.He cared about ramza.Sure he distrusted him later on,and went on to seek revenge,but that was because he was used and his sister was murdered.It wasn't ramza's fault either.


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Posted: 23rd May 2012 07:44

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I agree this was the saddest most tragic Final Fantasy. The whole game for the most part centered around people dying and being betrayed.

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Posted: 24th May 2012 01:26

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It may be, but that is why it was such an amazing game, also because there is no such thing as a "purely good" character as some of the other FFs portray.

Delita became a jerk seeking for power and even though Ramza seems honorable, he only acts that way for the deep guilt he feels about not being able to stop the injustice that was
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Teta's death.


This post has been edited by G. R. Martins on 24th May 2012 01:28

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Posted: 26th May 2012 12:14

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Delita wanted revenge,but it wasn't ramza's fault at all,instead,it was that other guys fault who killed teta.

This sort of like how a tragedy can separate two people who are close,and cause one to feel betrayed by them,and react.This makes me feel genuinely sorry for delita.I felt betrayed that gafgarion,a strong brave knight,sold himself out.


I haven't beaten the game fully,but when i do,i'l get more into the subject.

This post has been edited by Magitek_slayer on 26th May 2012 12:16

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Posted: 17th August 2012 21:56

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Quote (G. R. Martins @ 24th May 2012 01:26)
It may be, but that is why it was such an amazing game, also because there is no such thing as a "purely good" character as some of the other FFs portray.

Delita became a jerk seeking for power and even though Ramza seems honorable, he only acts that way for the deep guilt he feels about not being able to stop the injustice that was
Possible spoilers: highlight to view
Teta's death.

I felt that ramza believed in the good of humanity and perhaps a little nieve, allowing himself to become a pawn.Perhaps his ignorance, blinded by his desire to satisfy his brothers demands, and honor.He seemed honorable,.

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Posted: 24th August 2012 08:31

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I would say so.
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With Delita turning out the way he did, both of Ramza's brothers becoming Lucavi, the realization that everyone in you party (Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, ect. ect. dies at the end, and that even though what Ranza did was morally good, no one will speak about it because he's branded a heretic by a religious orginization that's based on lies...definatly tragic.
. Must add that this is one if the deepest stories ever written for a video game imo.

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Posted: 3rd August 2013 12:24

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Final Fantasy loves melodrama...
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Posted: 3rd August 2013 19:07
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I found it more tragic that I had diarrhea last week.

This post has been edited by Trynabefunny on 4th August 2013 01:25
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Posted: 7th August 2013 14:38

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Quote (ramza_beoulve @ 24th August 2012 09:31)
I would say so.
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With Delita turning out the way he did, both of Ramza's brothers becoming Lucavi, the realization that everyone in you party (Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, ect. ect. dies at the end, and that even though what Ranza did was morally good, no one will speak about it because he's branded a heretic by a religious orginization that's based on lies...definatly tragic.
. Must add that this is one if the deepest stories ever written for a video game imo.

Not be a traitor to perhaps the greatest rpg series ever created but I found the first Tales of Destiny to have the most enjoyable story I have encountered in a video game.
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Posted: 21st August 2013 09:46

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"Tragedy" in the dramatic sense means "this guy was a normal guy like you, and he fell into corruption and madness or was betrayed and died a horrible death."

Macbeth, Julius Caesar, etc.

So, in the sense of Tragedy in the traditional sense, Final Fantasy Tactics doesn't really fit the mold. It's got sad stuff happening, sure, but it's the story of Ramza's spiritual purification, and his never ending quest for justice, which...

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In the end, he lays down his life for.


This is the epic tale of a great hero.

Delita's story is more like a tradtional Tragedy.

This post has been edited by Spooniest on 21st August 2013 09:46

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Posted: 22nd August 2013 00:57

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I thought the literary meaning of "tragedy" usually means when a protagonist tries to accomplish something but fails.

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Posted: 14th September 2013 04:22

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Playing through the game first time around, I had no idea how many people, mentioned by name at least, in the game would die. Most deaths have has at least some magnitude of tragedy associated with them.

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Posted: 15th September 2013 00:17

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Quote (Glenn Magus Harvey @ 21st August 2013 19:57)
I thought the literary meaning of "tragedy" usually means when a protagonist tries to accomplish something but fails.

Not necessarily true, if even relevant. Shakespeare's Macbeth, for instance, accomplished what he set out to do. The tragedy here was that he was a better man before he set out to achieve that goal. Come to think of it, so was Delita.

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Posted: 24th September 2013 20:03

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Quote (TacticalEvo @ 13th September 2013 23:22)
Playing through the game first time around, I had no idea how many people, mentioned by name at least, in the game would die. Most deaths have has at least some magnitude of tragedy associated with them.

Honestly?

We aren't shown any of the player characters' deaths.

They fell into a dimensional rift or something, and emerged as the cast of Final Fantasy VI.

There, are you happy yet? biggrin.gif

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Posted: 16th November 2014 15:50

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Let's take a look at the story all around.

Delita's a jerk, and he gets what he wants at the end, but it's better than the alternative.

He used Ramza to this end, as he did Ovelia (?) and he also used the bad guys in the same form and fashion, making him an anti-hero more than that of a villain. He was underhanded, clever, and downright devious. someone had to be, because Ramza sure wasn't.

He also indicated he might actually care about Ovelia (?), and even showed remorse when
Possible spoilers: highlight to view
Ovelia stabbed him in the end and he was forced to kill her.


he was a commoner who fought alongside a hated noble family, was forced to deal with Algus, and his sister was victimized through the whole thing, through no fault of hers or his.

Yes, I believe Delita was a tragic character, and was justified in everything he did.

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Posted: 19th November 2014 11:44

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You have a diverse audience. I'm sure some people are heartbroken, others might be happy, others don't care, and those like me who kinda expect it.

The story is plausible enough for me to not over nitpick it.

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Posted: 16th June 2017 12:27

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Maybe its just been forever, or maybe its because I never paid much attention to all the dialogue...But there were so many characters in that game that I couldnt figure out who was who and who did what.
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Posted: 16th June 2017 14:17

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Quote (JTrigger @ 16th June 2017 06:27)
Maybe its just been forever, or maybe its because I never paid much attention to all the dialogue...But there were so many characters in that game that I couldnt figure out who was who and who did what.

I've heard this from a few people over the years, and I think the solution now is to play War of the Lions if you were originally playing the PSX version. I struggled to keep things straight for a good portion of my first playthrough nearly twenty years ago, but I think for first-time players or people who didn't feel like they grasped it before, the WotL re-translation helps a LOT. Also useful is checking the Brave Story menus to try to keep up on characters and plot points from time to time - a lot of people forget those are there.

In terms of the gaming universe, Tactics is definitely one of the most tragic games, I'd have to agree. I've gone so far as to call it "oppressively grim" in the past, which is a bit of hyperbole but isn't really inaccurate if you stop to think about the entirety of the game - I think people tend to forget that the timeline of the game is essentially over the course of a couple of years, and that's a long time for virtually nothing positive to happen in any of the characters' lives.

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Posted: 16th June 2017 14:46

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Quote
I've heard this from a few people over the years, and I think the solution now is to play War of the Lions if you were originally playing the PSX version. I struggled to keep things straight for a good portion of my first playthrough nearly twenty years ago, but I think for first-time players or people who didn't feel like they grasped it before, the WotL re-translation helps a LOT. Also useful is checking the Brave Story menus to try to keep up on characters and plot points from time to time - a lot of people forget those are there.


I need to play through this again and pay more attention to other features like this.
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Posted: 18th June 2017 14:29

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Can't blame anyone for forgetting about the Brave Story, but it does an alright job of keeping tabs on characters. The entries should update as the plot progresses, outside of a few names (like Cloud) who only get entries upon death/firing.

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Posted: 26th June 2017 17:23

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Now that I have the right to post in this thread having beaten it, I have this to say. This game is real sad, but has a beautifully written story. I haven't touched the PSX version, but from what I've seen the only thing that appealed to me in the least was the random ability warcries when using abilities on the field. That sort of stuff floats my boat. And honestly the Shakespearean style dialogue tents me. Hard.

The story is just Ramza being dragged through the mud the entire game. Not one good thing happens to him. It's a tragedy the entire way through. Another thing that surprised me was the adult content in the game. It's not a child's game. I couldn't believe some of the stuff I was seeing and craved more every time a cutscene that alluded to some sort of doublecrossing or confrontation. The story in this game is a long dirty slog that needs to be done, and Ramza just does it all unflinching and never backs down. I loved it.

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Posted: 3rd August 2017 21:30

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I think Spooniest nails it on the head here. Ramza's story is heroic; Delita's is practically a textbook case of tragedy (great man tries to do something good but falls short and ends up ruined).

I think the better label might just be plain ol' "gritty." It's the Game of Thrones of Final Fantasy.
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Posted: 5th August 2017 14:19

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Quote (chevleclair @ 16th November 2014 15:50)
Let's take a look at the story all around.

Delita's a jerk, and he gets what he wants at the end, but it's better than the alternative.

He used Ramza to this end, as he did Ovelia (?) and he also used the bad guys in the same form and fashion, making him an anti-hero more than that of a villain. He was underhanded, clever, and downright devious. someone had to be, because Ramza sure wasn't.

He also indicated he might actually care about Ovelia (?), and even showed remorse when
Possible spoilers: highlight to view
Ovelia stabbed him in the end and he was forced to kill her.


he was a commoner who fought alongside a hated noble family, was forced to deal with Algus, and his sister was victimized through the whole thing, through no fault of hers or his. 

Yes, I believe Delita was a tragic character, and was justified in everything he did.


Re: Ovelia

Let's keep in mind that the very first scene is Delita kidnapping her, insulting her, and literally punching her out, and that
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Delita is her captor throughout the game, not to mention her coerced if not outright forced husband at the end of it, which heavily implies Rafa was not the only major character that got raped in this war
.

Delita might have liked her on and off when it suited him; especially when she was vulnerable and pliable to his political machinations. But the moment he felt she crossed him?
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I don't think it's correct to say she 'made' him kill her when she was the one being actively victimized and trying to escape rather than achieve something by his death. Throughout the game, everyone but Ovelia, Teta, and Alma fought. Ovelia had plenty of reasons to fight, and always chose not to up until this scene. Her conditions, both psychological and physical, had to be nothing short of horrific to drive her to violate this core value of pacifism. Whereas Delita... just found it easier to dispose of her. He thought he could render her compliant, that he could do anything to her and still have her under thumb, and the moment she snapped? He may well have grieved for the idealized version of his 'annoying Princess', but the reality of recognizing that even the most docile human being will lash out when violated enough? Not his problem. STAB.


Delita's past was tragic, but he stopped being justified by his past once he decided to inflict it tenfold on the rest of the world.

Edit: For some reason I thought there'd been a child born, but I can't find any confirmation on that.

This post has been edited by The Amazing Genderless Shiva on 5th August 2017 15:18
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Posted: 21st August 2017 18:07

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Shiva I don't think there was a kid between them. I semi freshly beat it and I don't think at any point do they mention kids aside from the orphans who Rapha and Marach were with.

I really REALLY liked your breakdown of Ovelia and Delita's relationship. Very interesting and I'll be paying close attention to the story this time. Reached chapter 3 last night.

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Posted: 22nd August 2017 15:07

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This is like Game of Thrones 15 years before Game of Thrones was Game of Thrones, yeah.

The censorship policies at Sony were not as stringent as Nintendo's... smile.gif Um, they kinda let them do whatever they wanted. Squaresoft at the time were in doubt over whether they'd localize it, because of it's generally offensive to a western mind story...basically your religion is evil and has victimized everyone throughout history and has called demons to the world to destroy us, and the only real heroes get screwed out of ever having any recognition for what they do for everyone.

It is a statement on the human condition as it exists for most of the world, and very raw one at that. Suburban western kid's mind: blown in 1997. This was Squaresoft's second game for Sony, they weren't sure what they could get away with yet.

It didn't originally have a very good localization, but it gets the point across.

I feel like the theological question it fails to answer is, what are the spirits in this world responsible for White Mage's powers doing all this time, they show plenty of devils deviling it up, but only one angelic miracle: Malak is ressurected by Rafa's kind hearted prayer on the stone.

And see, that is the catch: in a world at war, there is a shortage of kindness necessary to call that spirit out of the Zodiac Stone.

Like I said, 1997 Suburban White Kid's Mind: Blown.

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